Average Joe

[Tank 92]

The new deal is more about him becoming one of the best of the best in light of him becoming a champion as well as having leverage(off the field) in negotiations. 

 

That's what you are missing. His new deal is nothing about him becoming "one of the best" or anything else. The only monetary considerations related to what he does in the future are any incentive driven payments included in his contract and any subsequent deal. All in all, it was determined by past performance, his worth to the Team and the market at the time he signed, not what he may do in the future.

[5aiah]

That's what you are missing. His new deal is nothing about him becoming "one of the best" or anything else. The only monetary considerations related to what he does in the future are any incentive driven payments included in his contract and any subsequent deal. All in all, it was determined by past performance, his worth to the Team and the market at the time he signed, not what he may do in the future.

I think the most efficient GMs try to pay players what they think they can do, not what they have done. This particular situation is different because Flacco won a Superbowl(and they couldn't let the best Ravens QB in history leave) but like I said the original deal tells us a lot. Agree to disagree.

[Tank 92]

I think the most efficient GMs try to pay players what they think they can do, not what they have done. This particular situation is different because Flacco won a Superbowl(and they couldn't let the best Ravens QB in history leave) but like I said the original deal tells us a lot. Agree to disagree.

 

 

10 4

 

 

:argdancingravensblueonwkk8:

[1/28/01]

If contracts were simply due to market and what players HAVE done, Reed would be a Raven. They certainly have, at the very least, a little to do with future play and the success that goes along with that play and growth as a player. To think otherwise is foolish.

[pbutcher]

I've only liked Flacco more and more since day 1.

[Tank 92]

If contracts were simply due to market and what players HAVE done, Reed would be a Raven. They certainly have, at the very least, a little to do with future play and the success that goes along with that play and growth as a player. To think otherwise is foolish.

Not foolish at all. A player's first big contract is based more on what they have accomplished and the market value at the time. Of course the hope is that they will continue to improve and pay dividends.

You can't compare the first big contract of a top player to one of an aging broken down veteran, used to be top player. Their market value is obviously much different.

[hawkprey]

Not foolish at all. A player's first big contract is based more on what they have accomplished and the market value at the time. Of course the hope is that they will continue to improve and pay dividends.

To compare a 5th year player's contract to an aging, broken down veteran's contract is, well, naive and foolish. Sorry.

1/21/01 is right that you get paid to play at a certain level going forward. But what you've done is the best indication of what you'll do. No one pays a guy money and says "Ok, NOW he's gonna start playing well." 

[Tank 92]

1/21/01 is right that you get paid to play at a certain level going forward. But what you've done is the best indication of what you'll do. No one pays a guy money and says "Ok, NOW he's gonna start playing well."

Right. It's obvious you don't pay a guy well thinking he is going in the tank in the future. The point is the value of a veteran's first big contract is based on past performance, as well as the market value at the time the contract is signed. That's what made Ed feel like he had been disrespected. The market value of a top rated safety increased greatly in the years following his big deal and he felt cheated. As in any business, the market and comparative value at the time is what determines the $.

[flynismo]

You are missing the point completely, which is that the Packers are paying Arod exactly what was coming to him as the best QB in the league by far. Flacco on the other hand was not the best QB when he got his historic deal but I see it as paying for what he will become(which is a totally complete and elite QB) down the road as well as having to shell out because of the SB run.

I think we can all agree with that. But his point was very simply that it is incredibly ignorant for people to say "Now Flacco has to earn that money" and in the same breath, say that a guy like Matt Ryan is getting what he is worth. The hypocrisy is comical.

[ellicottraven]

First of all I think Flacco is the best QB we have ever had. Having said that however, I expected after last year's playoff run, I was hoping to see a very consistent and confident Flacco who would take any receiver you give him and turn them into stars. I think I may need to hold that thought a little.

What I saw from Flacco was some what unnerving. I saw remnants of the Flacco we saw in a few games last year when he was atrocious. Nobody in their right minds will deny that. He was nail bitingly inconsistent and we would hold our collective breath in hoping the talented and great Flacco would show up. He did finally in the playoffs. Now, I think we may need to get used to a Flacco that has awesome days and some terrible days down the road. We will still make the playoffs and he will win us some great games, but, he may also lose some winnable games. That is the part I wanted gone this year.

I suppose the INTs thrown in training camp showed up in the couple of preseason games. Hopefully, by the time regular season starts, he will be back to being the playoff Flacco that we all would love to see on a regular basis. We can only wait and watch what happens, because with Flacco it is so hard to say.... While I am one amongst many Flacco homers, he is beginning to make me feel a little anxious...

[Wisdom]

No doubt, as we previously saw during our Superbowl run, Joe Flacco has improved on getting rid of the ball faster instead of making the usual poor decisions however, it will do him well to cut down on those...... anybody up for grab air balls.  He needs to learn to throw the ball to his receivers and not at them!  I"m  sure the Ravens did not pay him millions of dollars to simply throw air balls to the wind?   A good quarterback is a guy who can make his receivers better and you can"t do that if you are throwing the ball behind or over the heads of your receivers. This is a perfect formula for defeat.     

 

GO RAVENS!

[flynismo]

First of all I think Flacco is the best QB we have ever had. Having said that however, I expected after last year's playoff run, I was hoping to see a very consistent and confident Flacco who would take any receiver you give him and turn them into stars. I think I may need to hold that thought a little.What I saw from Flacco was some what unnerving. I saw remnants of the Flacco we saw in a few games last year when he was atrocious. Nobody in their right minds will deny that. He was nail bitingly inconsistent and we would hold our collective breath in hoping the talented and great Flacco would show up. He did finally in the playoffs. Now, I think we may need to get used to a Flacco that has awesome days and some terrible days down the road. We will still make the playoffs and he will win us some great games, but, he may also lose some winnable games. That is the part I wanted gone this year.I suppose the INTs thrown in training camp showed up in the couple of preseason games. Hopefully, by the time regular season starts, he will be back to being the playoff Flacco that we all would love to see on a regular basis. We can only wait and watch what happens, because with Flacco it is so hard to say.... While I am one amongst many Flacco homers, he is beginning to make me feel a little anxious...

Well, I haven't actually watched the two preseason games yet, so I'm going off of what I've read...
But from my understanding, we are seeing the same problems on offense that has been a problem in the past. Lack of chemistry with a new recieving corp, inconsistent protection were two recurring themes that I read about. And I believe it, simply because throughout his entire career Flacco has shown us how good he is when guys do their part.
As for Flacco raising the play of the guys around him, quite a few teammates have said he already does that. I believe Dallas Clark was the last one to say so recently...just remember that you can't polish a turd...you are right to be cautious about the offense; but it isn't necessarily because we don't have the right guy under center

[5aiah]

I think we can all agree with that. But his point was very simply that it is incredibly ignorant for people to say "Now Flacco has to earn that money" and in the same breath, say that a guy like Matt Ryan is getting what he is worth. The hypocrisy is comical.

Totally forgot this thread.Lol. Again the biggest difference is that Matt Ryan and Arod have been consistent in their game while Flacco has not, and are more proficient in areas of great importance as a QB than Flacco, so it is seen as more of a risk. That being said,I think he will play up to it, but to be honest its not a big deal that people look at him having to "earn that money" because so much of it is based on the one playoff run. All you have to do is look at the difference between our original offer to him(that he turned down) and his historic one. He bet on himself, won the SB and SB MVP, and got what was coming to him. You guys are saying its unfair that people talk about his deal and having to play up to it but its warranted in a situation like this, and he is so different from those guys(Arod and Matty Ice) that you can't even compare them.

 

1/21/01 is right that you get paid to play at a certain level going forward. But what you've done is the best indication of what you'll do. No one pays a guy money and says "Ok, NOW he's gonna start playing well." 

The problem here is that there is no best indication of what Flacco will do because of how inconsistent he has been. Like I said his situation is so different from most QBs so it is hard to compare. Your last sentence actually kind of fits here. We were prepared to pay him what we thought his value was(quite a bit less than his new deal) and add incentives in for winning a SB, he declined because he thought he could do better and bring more to the negotiating table. He did and when both parties got there it's like, OK Joe you pulled the trigger and hit the bulls eye. You have the upper hand and will get paid much more than what we think/thought your value is. By getting this deal done and making you the highest paid player in NFL history we are expecting you to continue to play at the level you just did. So instead of "Ok, NOW he's gonna start playing well." It is "OK now he is going to be better than the guy we thought he was". That's just my take on it, because there are too many factors people are leaving out when they talk about his contract and situation. His skill was definitely not the only reason he got paid that much or he would have gotten the same old contract offer from before. It's clear to me the contract carries higher expectations for both parties.

[flynismo]

Totally forgot this thread.Lol. Again the biggest difference is that Matt Ryan and Arod have been consistent in their game while Flacco has not, and are more proficient in areas of great importance as a QB than Flacco, so it is seen as more of a risk. That being said,I think he will play up to it, but to be honest its not a big deal that people look at him having to "earn that money" because so much of it is based on the one playoff run. All you have to do is look at the difference between our original offer to him(that he turned down) and his historic one. He bet on himself, won the SB and SB MVP, and got what was coming to him. You guys are saying its unfair that people talk about his deal and having to play up to it but its warranted in a situation like this, and he is so different from those guys(Arod and Matty Ice) that you can't even compare them.


The problem here is that there is no best indication of what Flacco will do because of how inconsistent he has been. Like I said his situation is so different from most QBs so it is hard to compare. Your last sentence actually kind of fits here. We were prepared to pay him what we thought his value was(quite a bit less than his new deal) and add incentives in for winning a SB, he declined because he thought he could do better and bring more to the negotiating table. He did and when both parties got there it's like, OK Joe you pulled the trigger and hit the bulls eye. You have the upper hand and will get paid much more than what we think/thought your value is. By getting this deal done and making you the highest paid player in NFL history we are expecting you to continue to play at the level you just did. So instead of "Ok, NOW he's gonna start playing well." It is "OK now he is going to be better than the guy we thought he was". That's just my take on it, because there are too many factors people are leaving out when they talk about his contract and situation. His skill was definitely not the only reason he got paid that much or he would have gotten the same old contract offer from before. It's clear to me the contract carries higher expectations for both parties.

I wouldn't read TOO much into the contract raising expectations. The expectation every year has been SB or bust, so nothing changes there. And for all the talk from the FO about how we are transitioning to more of an offensive team, their actions indicate that we are sticking to what has made us so successful the past five years...fielding a top notch defense and relying on Flacco and Rice to play chess and put up just enough points to win games.
I think what they really mean is that Flacco has elevated his play to the level where they trust him completely to make plays when needed. Our M.O. isn't to get into shootouts and destroy teams with our passing attack, we play very methodically. We lean on Rice to wipe time off the clock at times, other times we focus almost exclusively on bullying a scrub db, sometimes we just mix it up and try to slowly move the chains...all in the same game.
So I don't think we will ever see Flacco put up big stats. And how consistent he is will be more a reflection on the guys around him than himself...guys like Ryan put up stats consistently in large part because he has three Pro Bowl caliber receivers to throw to every week. Not a single one of our current receivers has came anywhere near Pro Bowl consideration. And a lot of weeks, that will show.

[hawkprey]

 

The problem here is that there is no best indication of what Flacco will do because of how inconsistent he has been. Like I said his situation is so different from most QBs so it is hard to compare. Your last sentence actually kind of fits here. We were prepared to pay him what we thought his value was(quite a bit less than his new deal) and add incentives in for winning a SB, he declined because he thought he could do better and bring more to the negotiating table. He did and when both parties got there it's like, OK Joe you pulled the trigger and hit the bulls eye. You have the upper hand and will get paid much more than what we think/thought your value is. By getting this deal done and making you the highest paid player in NFL history we are expecting you to continue to play at the level you just did. So instead of "Ok, NOW he's gonna start playing well." It is "OK now he is going to be better than the guy we thought he was". That's just my take on it, because there are too many factors people are leaving out when they talk about his contract and situation. His skill was definitely not the only reason he got paid that much or he would have gotten the same old contract offer from before. It's clear to me the contract carries higher expectations for both parties.

First, plenty of QBs will have the chance to be the highest paid at one point. It's only been 5 months and Joe is only the 3rd highest paid now. Contracts get bigger over time, so the "highest paid player in history" really only means "the last very good QB to sign a deal". 

 

Second, I would wager that Flacco is infact VERY consistent, as he has gotten us to the divisional round every year despite fluctuations all across the rest of the team. Does he have bad games every once in a while? Yes. But those down games are actually very predictable. They occur any time we move to this 2-wide "run first" offense. Making Flacco actually consistent with the type of offense called. I illustrated that here: http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/49733-how-good-is-the-ravens-offense-at-home/

 

Secondly, I would rank Flacco near the top of the QB universe despite him "only having a good 4-game run". That reasoning (applied to all QBs) is well illustrated here: http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/53509-hawprey-on-quarterbacks-a-long-boring-read/. It also debunks the inconsistency argument.

 

Only if you're interested, of course. Both of those are somewhat lengthy (and it's only now that I realized that in a 1000 word essay, the only thing I misspelled my own username in the title). 

[flynismo]

First, plenty of QBs will have the chance to be the highest paid at one point. It's only been 5 months and Joe is only the 3rd highest paid now. Contracts get bigger over time, so the "highest paid player in history" really only means "the last very good QB to sign a deal". 
 
Second, I would wager that Flacco is infact VERY consistent, as he has gotten us to the divisional round every year despite fluctuations all across the rest of the team. Does he have bad games every once in a while? Yes. But those down games are actually very predictable. They occur any time we move to this 2-wide "run first" offense. Making Flacco actually consistent with the type of offense called. I illustrated that here: http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/49733-how-good-is-the-ravens-offense-at-home/
 
Secondly, I would rank Flacco near the top of the QB universe despite him "only having a good 4-game run". That reasoning (applied to all QBs) is well illustrated here: http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/53509-hawprey-on-quarterbacks-a-long-boring-read/. It also debunks the inconsistency argument.
 
Only if you're interested, of course. Both of those are somewhat lengthy (and it's only now that I realized that in a 1000 word essay, the only thing I misspelled my own username in the title).

Good stuff, hawk.

And essentially, you are saying the same thing I just said above...Flacco's consistency or lack thereof is a reflection of his environment, not so much himself.

[MrPlankton]

I think there's a fine line between "It's preseason, who cares?" and "We are so screwed.", but I know for sure I won't be looking at the Sun any time soon. People over there want Joe to fail, unbelievable. 

[5aiah]

Good stuff, hawk.

And essentially, you are saying the same thing I just said above...Flacco's consistency or lack thereof is a reflection of his environment, not so much himself.

Yeah I liked both of those reads(I already read "a long boring read", you must have linked it for me before) but that wasn't really what I was referring to by consistency. I'm talking about the reads he makes, his timing on the routes run, his decision making, and his accuracy. All of those he has shown to be inconsistent in. When I talk about consistency I mean his on field ability and play, not the teams success. I closely follow a few other teams(Rams,Bucs,Packers) and watch their games just like I do the Ravens so i see the difference between those 4 QBs. Yes there are some things you can put on Cam, or the offensive system,or the situation, but overall these skills should cut through a lot of those things. Placing the ball right where it is supposed to be on a majority of your passes is something that should happen regardless of the environment. Fly, you mentioned guys like Matty put up stats consistently because of their environment(the guys around them) but I'm not talking about stats at all. I'm saying guys like Aaron Rodgers and Matt Ryan consistently make good reads,decisions, and accurate passes a majority of the time even under pressure. You can just tell the huge gap between them and Flacco in that regard. In my opinion Flacco's lack of consistency is due both to environment and his own shortcomings, but that he is expected to become a more consistent passer from here on out and that is one of the many factors in why he got such a big contract. You can definitely say Flacco is a consistent winner(I've always said that), but to say he is a consistent passer is something totally different and is something he has not shown yet in his career. I'm betting he will this year.

 

 

I wouldn't read TOO much into the contract raising expectations. The expectation every year has been SB or bust, so nothing changes there. And for all the talk from the FO about how we are transitioning to more of an offensive team, their actions indicate that we are sticking to what has made us so successful the past five years...fielding a top notch defense and relying on Flacco and Rice to play chess and put up just enough points to win games.

I think we were becoming much more balanced just like the FO was saying but that got derailed by injuries and cap decisions. I don't think we will be as conservative in the future as we have been these past 5 years. Pretty sure the game plan to change is still the same we have just been hit by bad luck and bad breaks. Right now we aren't balanced at all but closer to defense first because of everything that has happened to the offense.

[RLewis52]

 

Right now we aren't balanced at all but closer to defense first because of everything that has happened to the offense.

 

 

You dont always half to be a balanced football team to win games or titles for that matter, think the first championship we won kinda proves that.   Pats had the worst defence ever pretty much couple years ago, still put them in superbowl,  Will note they didnt win it though hah

[flynismo]

Yeah I liked both of those reads(I already read "a long boring read", you must have linked it for me before) but that wasn't really what I was referring to by consistency. I'm talking about the reads he makes, his timing on the routes run, his decision making, and his accuracy. All of those he has shown to be inconsistent in. When I talk about consistency I mean his on field ability and play, not the teams success. I closely follow a few other teams(Rams,Bucs,Packers) and watch their games just like I do the Ravens so i see the difference between those 4 QBs. Yes there are some things you can put on Cam, or the offensive system,or the situation, but overall these skills should cut through a lot of those things. Placing the ball right where it is supposed to be on a majority of your passes is something that should happen regardless of the environment. Fly, you mentioned guys like Matty put up stats consistently because of their environment(the guys around them) but I'm not talking about stats at all. I'm saying guys like Aaron Rodgers and Matt Ryan consistently make good reads,decisions, and accurate passes a majority of the time even under pressure. You can just tell the huge gap between them and Flacco in that regard. In my opinion Flacco's lack of consistency is due both to environment and his own shortcomings, but that he is expected to become a more consistent passer from here on out and that is one of the many factors in why he got such a big contract. You can definitely say Flacco is a consistent winner(I've always said that), but to say he is a consistent passer is something totally different and is something he has not shown yet in his career. I'm betting he will this year.

 

I did understand what you meant, even though my response may not have seemed that way.

 

I just do not see where you are coming from when you say certain things, like "Placing the ball right where it is supposed to be on a majority of your passes is something that should happen regardless of the environment."

I'm assuming that you are implying that accuracy is an issue for Flacco.

I wont beat the "deep passing / quick strike offense" thing to death any more than it already has, but Flacco is recognized by even his biggest detractors as having probably the best deep ball in the game. You dont get that reputation by just getting lucky once in a while....and sure enough, I could make a short film out of just highlights featuring Flacco hitting guys 25+ yards downfield.

And he consistently throws passes into windows that someone like Ryan would rather eat glass than attempt to make.

That goes hand in hand with his decision making. He knows his strengths, and exploits the hell out of it.

 

Let me go with a different approach.

 

Here's QB1:

 

692 pass attempts
38 TD
17 INT
5,365 yards

 

Here's QB2:

 

657 att
33 td
10 INT
4957 yards

 

Now, I realize that stats without context is a dangerous thing, but just roll with it...

which of those QB's played more effeciently?

 

Obviously, it was QB #2.

 

They have nearly identical yards per attempt, and TD's per attempt. The glaring difference is that QB #2 did all that while not turning the ball over.

 

If you are curious, QB #1 is Matt Ryan, and his 2012 stats, and QB #2 is Flacco's 2012 totals.

 

When you factor in that Ryan plays catch in a dome with Roddy White, Julio Jones and Tony G, and Flacco goes against the Steelers in freezing weather with what he had, I'd say it's safe to assume that on the field, there IS a large gap between Ryan and Flacco...just not in favor of the guy you suggested, despite his alleged superior accuracy and mental aptitude.

[flynismo]

I'll take the Flacco / Ryan comparison above a step further.

 

Is Flacco really any more or less consistent than other guys? Look at Ryan again...

 

- A game against TB where he threw the ball 44 times, and had just 238 yards, 1 TD and 0 INT to show for it.

 

- 33 pass attempts against NO was good for 165 yards and 1 TD and 0 INT

 

- 0 TD and 5 INT against AZ (god forbid Flacco ever did that)

 

- 37 pass attempts against OAK resulted in 1 TD and 3 INT

 

- 49 pass attempts against CAR for 2 TD and 1 INT

 

- The playoff game against SEA, where he netted 250 yards on 35 attempts, and 3 TD and 2 INT

 

Those are six mediocre to terrible performances.

 

Is this the kind of consistency that Flacco is supposed to be striving for? If so, Flacco is already as consistent, because I counted 6 mediocre or worse performances from Flacco last year (in two more games played). Go look for yourself and tell me the six stinkers:

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/11252/joe-flacco

[Radinho84]

I'll take the Flacco / Ryan comparison above a step further.

 

Is Flacco really any more or less consistent than other guys? Look at Ryan again...

 

- A game against TB where he threw the ball 44 times, and had just 238 yards, 1 TD and 0 INT to show for it.

 

- 33 pass attempts against NO was good for 165 yards and 1 TD and 0 INT

 

- 0 TD and 5 INT against AZ (god forbid Flacco ever did that)

 

- 37 pass attempts against OAK resulted in 1 TD and 3 INT

 

- 49 pass attempts against CAR for 2 TD and 1 INT

 

- The playoff game against SEA, where he netted 250 yards on 35 attempts, and 3 TD and 2 INT

 

Those are six mediocre to terrible performances.

 

Is this the kind of consistency that Flacco is supposed to be striving for? If so, Flacco is already as consistent, because I counted 6 mediocre or worse performances from Flacco last year (in two more games played). Go look for yourself and tell me the six stinkers:

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/11252/joe-flacco

+1 from me fly!

 

I don´t think that we can even compare those guys as you´ve mentioned many times before matty playing in a freaking dome and Joe has to put it up in really bad weather against the best defenses every week.

 

They are both great and both real franchise players. but for me flacco is the better option just because he is able to play his best football when it matters most. last year´s playoff run should have quieted all doubters but they arfe still bringing up the crab.

 

Give Flacco Julio, White and Tony and he would easily put up numbers like breed or rogers...

 

I think we will see more of Flacco in the next years considering stats and stuff. 

 

Never the less we are still the ravens and will first of all be feared for our defense....

[Tank 92]

First, plenty of QBs will have the chance to be the highest paid at one point. It's only been 5 months and Joe is only the 3rd highest paid now. Contracts get bigger over time, so the "highest paid player in history" really only means "the last very good QB to sign a deal". 
 
Second, I would wager that Flacco is infact VERY consistent, as he has gotten us to the divisional round every year despite fluctuations all across the rest of the team. Does he have bad games every once in a while? Yes. But those down games are actually very predictable. They occur any time we move to this 2-wide "run first" offense. Making Flacco actually consistent with the type of offense called. I illustrated that here: http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/49733-how-good-is-the-ravens-offense-at-home/
 
Secondly, I would rank Flacco near the top of the QB universe despite him "only having a good 4-game run". That reasoning (applied to all QBs) is well illustrated here: http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/53509-hawprey-on-quarterbacks-a-long-boring-read/. It also debunks the inconsistency argument.
 
Only if you're interested, of course. Both of those are somewhat lengthy (and it's only now that I realized that in a 1000 word essay, the only thing I misspelled my own username in the title).

Exactly right.

I think a lot of the consternation over what is perceived as a "lack of consistency" is driven by folks active in fantasy leagues, or at least thoughts of the importance of big time stats. I don't know if we will ever have the receiving corps to drive the big #s some are looking for from Joe because that is not the way our FO builds Teams. Oz and Co. look to build a well rounded Team that is very good in all aspects of the game on both sides of the ball and they don't sacrifice the ability to do so by going out and signing huge contract free agents. "Right player, right price". Seems like an excellent and intelligent way to remain competitive year in and year out. As a Ravens fan, that's the kind of consistency that makes me happy. :-)

[5aiah]

You dont always half to be a balanced football team to win games or titles for that matter, think the first championship we won kinda proves that.   Pats had the worst defence ever pretty much couple years ago, still put them in superbowl,  Will note they didnt win it though hah

Oh sure, that is still my favorite Superbowl, team,and season of all time. Probably always will be, but i wasn't saying we had to be balanced to win, just that the Franchise wants to be fully balanced with the ability to throw and run well, and defend the run and pass well. The defense is extremely balanced, more so than the 2000 defense, which in my opinion was all about the run defense and never took on the type of QBs we did last year. We seem to believe balance is the way to go these days, and i agree after watching the the Niners lose to us because they could only run and stop the run.

 

I did understand what you meant, even though my response may not have seemed that way.

 

I just do not see where you are coming from when you say certain things, like "Placing the ball right where it is supposed to be on a majority of your passes is something that should happen regardless of the environment."

I'm assuming that you are implying that accuracy is an issue for Flacco.

I wont beat the "deep passing / quick strike offense" thing to death any more than it already has, but Flacco is recognized by even his biggest detractors as having probably the best deep ball in the game. You dont get that reputation by just getting lucky once in a while....and sure enough, I could make a short film out of just highlights featuring Flacco hitting guys 25+ yards downfield.

And he consistently throws passes into windows that someone like Ryan would rather eat glass than attempt to make.

That goes hand in hand with his decision making. He knows his strengths, and exploits the hell out of it.

You've done your homework,I've used stats like that to defend Flacco before. I wold challenge your notion of Flacco's reputation as having the best deep ball. Its more like he recently joined the group(Arod,Brees even with a lot less power and Peyton), of great deep ball throwers along with young guys like Kaepernick and RG3. Flacco seems to be more accurate and comfortable when launching the ball deep then the intermediary game where his throws can be off or he makes bad decisions that result in ints. Everyone got on Cam for mainly going deep but he was playing to Flacco strengths and avoiding his weakness(which is the mental aspects that come with the intermediary game). Pretty sure Flacco threw no interceptions at all while going deep this year. Letting him rocket the ball downfield or into tight spaces is something Flacco does well on the account of that beautiful arm of his but Ravens fans completely forget and let him off the hook when it comes to the other aspects of his game. That is what he has to improve at to become a more complete QB. Judging by all of these recent posts this has become something about basic stats,which wasn't my intention nor what i was referring to. I'm not using stats(advanced or basic) to make my point(even though advanced ones would help my point) about Flacco but just that I watch a lot of QBs in depth and from what I see he doesn't match up in terms of awareness,reading the defense, and precision passing(timing and pinpoint accuracy) to guys like Arod and Matt Ryan. That's just from watching them all and comparing them. It was you who said stats are for people who didn't watch the game and i think that applies here because if you watch these three you will see how they differ in the finer aspects of Quarterbacking. I get what you are saying in your piece about wins and your other points about performance and it makes perfect sense. The thing is that isn't the only way you are rated in terms of value as a QB. In the end your points are exactly why Flacco got his mega deal, but my point is exactly why everyone has the right to differentiate between his contract and guys like Arod,Matty, or Romo(this guys deal gets criticized as well for the exact OPPOSITE reason) and be cautious or say he has to prove his contract right. To be clear I think Flacco is the perfect Ravens type QB,the greatest Ravens QB ever, and will improve into the complete QB I am talking about. Its just that I recognize exactly why his deal is questioned and why it is different from the other elite. Its like that for a reason.   

[flynismo]

Oh sure, that is still my favorite Superbowl, team,and season of all time. Probably always will be, but i wasn't saying we had to be balanced to win, just that the Franchise wants to be fully balanced with the ability to throw and run well, and defend the run and pass well. The defense is extremely balanced, more so than the 2000 defense, which in my opinion was all about the run defense and never took on the type of QBs we did last year. We seem to believe balance is the way to go these days, and i agree after watching the the Niners lose to us because they could only run and stop the run.

 

You've done your homework,I've used stats like that to defend Flacco before. I wold challenge your notion of Flacco's reputation as having the best deep ball. Its more like he recently joined the group(Arod,Brees even with a lot less power and Peyton), of great deep ball throwers along with young guys like Kaepernick and RG3. Flacco seems to be more accurate and comfortable when launching the ball deep then the intermediary game where his throws can be off or he makes bad decisions that result in ints. Everyone got on Cam for mainly going deep but he was playing to Flacco strengths and avoiding his weakness(which is the mental aspects that come with the intermediary game). Pretty sure Flacco threw no interceptions at all while going deep this year. Letting him rocket the ball downfield or into tight spaces is something Flacco does well on the account of that beautiful arm of his but Ravens fans completely forget and let him off the hook when it comes to the other aspects of his game. That is what he has to improve at to become a more complete QB. Judging by all of these recent posts this has become something about basic stats,which wasn't my intention nor what i was referring to. I'm not using stats(advanced or basic) to make my point(even though advanced ones would help my point) about Flacco but just that I watch a lot of QBs in depth and from what I see he doesn't match up in terms of awareness,reading the defense, and precision passing(timing and pinpoint accuracy) to guys like Arod and Matt Ryan. That's just from watching them all and comparing them. It was you who said stats are for people who didn't watch the game and i think that applies here because if you watch these three you will see how they differ in the finer aspects of Quarterbacking. I get what you are saying in your piece about wins and your other points about performance and it makes perfect sense. The thing is that isn't the only way you are rated in terms of value as a QB. In the end your points are exactly why Flacco got his mega deal, but my point is exactly why everyone has the right to differentiate between his contract and guys like Arod,Matty, or Romo(this guys deal gets criticized as well for the exact OPPOSITE reason) and be cautious or say he has to prove his contract right. To be clear I think Flacco is the perfect Ravens type QB,the greatest Ravens QB ever, and will improve into the complete QB I am talking about. Its just that I recognize exactly why his deal is questioned and why it is different from the other elite. Its like that for a reason.   

 

 

See, I hate stats, and I was hesitant to use them in my other post, but I suppose we really dont have anything more objective to measure them by.

 

And I do realize that you are not knocking or complaining about Flacco or his deal, so nothing I've said is really directed at you; it would just be weird if I said these things for no apparent reason so I use you as a sounding board, lol...

 

But the whole consistency argument against Flacco is and always was maddening. Does he need to be more consistent? Hell yes. But so does every single other QB out there, save for Rodgers and Peyton. Those two guys are unbelievable in their week to week performance.

So to hear about Matty Ice getting his due in regard to his contract, I agree. The guy can play ball, and deserves what he got. Just dont turn around and tell me that Flacco doesn't deserve his contract or call him overpaid (again not talking to you personally here).

 

Now, what I do object to is your comment:

 

from what I see he doesn't match up in terms of awareness,reading the defense, and precision passing(timing and pinpoint accuracy) to guys like Arod and Matt Ryan

 

I agree -- to an extent -- with those assesments. Timing routes are not part of our playbook (generally speaking of course). So we cant really make that comparison, and by default have to assume that those two guys are better at it, since they are so good in those aspects.

Awareness, I would agree.

Reading the defense I totally disagree with. Just look at what happened when Cam left. Flacco was given a little more control to audible, and it paid off big time.

 

In fact, I just came across this article:

 

http://bigeasysportstalk.com/2013/06/17/how-did-the-baltimore-ravens-win-the-super-bowl/

 

It doesn't support my claim above directly, but it supports the idea that Flacco's awareness greatly improved when Caldwell took over. Nothing too heavy, but great food for thought

[Guest RBates]

Sorry to type this:  Flacco without a player like Boldin or Pitta will come back to bite us in the hindparts.  

 

I told you guys before he needs a go to guy that he can rely on third downs.  We payed him like he could develop these type of players.

Not the case.  

 

Now looking at the  First string offense as a whole, we looked pretty bad in our first two preseason games.  He has not built any chemistry with the new talent.  This is why you leave money on the books for your help if you want to be great.  Just saying.

 

I don't blame Flacco for his contract, however, someone was supposed to tell him without a Boldin and a Pitta you will return to the average Joe.

[GrimCoconut]

I think Flacco well be just fine with a new go-to guy in Dallas Clark.

[flynismo]

Sorry to type this:  Flacco without a player like Boldin or Pitta will come back to bite us in the hindparts.  

 

I told you guys before he needs a go to guy that he can rely on third downs.  We payed him like he could develop these type of players.

Not the case.  

 

Now looking at the  First string offense as a whole, we looked pretty bad in our first two preseason games.  He has not built any chemistry with the new talent.  This is why you leave money on the books for your help if you want to be great.  Just saying.

 

I don't blame Flacco for his contract, however, someone was supposed to tell him without a Boldin and a Pitta you will return to the average Joe.

 

You can say that about any QB in the league. Who is Montanta without Rice and Craig? Peyton without Harrison, Wayne, Clark and Edge? Etc etc etc...still great QB's, but their offenses and teams suffer without a great supporting cast. Way to state the obvious...

[Ravenslifer]

You can say that about any QB in the league. Who is Montanta without Rice and Craig? Peyton without Harrison, Wayne, Clark and Edge? Etc etc etc...still great QB's, but their offenses and teams suffer without a great supporting cast. Way to state the obvious...

 

You know you are trying to argue with a guy who said last year "Cam Cameron is a good and decent offensive coordinator", right?

[flynismo]

You know you are trying to argue with a guy who said last year "Cam Cameron is a good and decent offensive coordinator", right?

 

Wow....thanks for the heads up. lol