PFF's take on the Ravens and advanced statistics

[ratedr]

Surprised to see the PFF worship. Never liked them, prefer football outsiders.

Football in general doesn't really lend itself well to advanced stats though. Not enough data in a season, and too many variables.

[5aiah]

That would be stupid to change the entire category of a player because of one practice when you saw him start 20 games last year. It would also be stupid to change his category because of the players around him. I'm pretty sure the point of analyzing players individually is to judge them as individuals.

But if your analysis leans toward the Subject leaning heavily toward his weapons more so than other QBs than obviously that should be taken into account, no? Also ever stop to think that they perhaps overrated him in the first place after the SB win and are correcting themselves now after seeing him throw and run the offense again?

 

Surprised to see the PFF worship. Never liked them, prefer football outsiders.

Football in general doesn't really lend itself well to advanced stats though. Not enough data in a season, and too many variables.

Actually this is more about analysis more so than stats at this point(since there are none). But yeah Football isn't like baseball in the way that advanced stats can tell the whole story, but at the same time its easier to miss the picture of what is going on in football(from watching it) then baseball. 

[hawkprey]

But if your analysis leans toward the Subject leaning heavily toward his weapons more so than other QBs than obviously that should be taken into account, no? Also ever stop to think that they perhaps overrated him in the first place after the SB win and are correcting themselves now after seeing him throw and run the offense again?

 

Actually this is more about analysis more so than stats at this point(since there are none). But yeah Football isn't like baseball in the way that advanced stats can tell the whole story, but at the same time its easier to miss the picture of what is going on in football(from watching it) then baseball. 

Yeah winning the Super Bowl is overrated.

[5aiah]

Yeah winning the Super Bowl is overrated.

Yeah winning the Super Bowl ensures your accuracy and awareness get better and you automatically become a whole different QB. You become one of the most skilled and talented QBs just by winning it. 

[berad]

Yeah winning the Super Bowl ensures your accuracy and awareness get better and you automatically become a whole different QB. You become one of the most skilled and talented QBs just by winning it.

Or you have to be one of the most skilled and talented to win it, especially with an 11 TD to 0 INT run

[beanfigger]

Or you have to be one of the most skilled and talented to win it, especially with an 11 TD to 0 INT run

 

Look at you bringing ordinary stats into an advanced statistics discussion.  There is no place for that here!

 

Anyway, I agree.  Even in All-22, Joe Flacco just dominated the post season.  I don't need someone to invent a formula to tell me that.  Our team is, in fact, more talented than most of the teams "graded" on the same level as us on that site.  I know because I'm not an idiot, and I'm not blind.

[5aiah]

Or you have to be one of the most skilled and talented to win it, especially with an 11 TD to 0 INT run

Yeah but the point is people need to stop giving the QB all the credit and all the blame when it comes to these victories. Its a team sport you know? That and other teams helps determine the outcome. Not one man. Football is the ultimate team sport. Also an 11 TD 0 INT run doesn't make one Tom Brady.

 

Look at you bringing ordinary stats into an advanced statistics discussion.  There is no place for that here!

 

Anyway, I agree.  Even in All-22, Joe Flacco just dominated the post season.  I don't need someone to invent a formula to tell me that.  Our team is, in fact, more talented than most of the teams "graded" on the same level as us on that site.  I know because I'm not an idiot, and I'm not blind.

Most of what teams? They haven't even finished(going to all the camps) em all yet and the Raven's rookies on defense aren't counted as starters yet because we don't hand jobs out. Other teams have one or two rookies(with no rating) starting. You are just arguing for no reason now and not making any sense. 

 

Edit: I'm interested in the teams you think we are more talented than who graded on the same level as us.

[beanfigger]

Yeah but the point is people need to stop giving the QB all the credit and all the blame when it comes to these victories. Its a team sport you know? That and other teams helps determine the outcome. Not one man. Football is the ultimate team sport. Also an 11 TD 0 INT run doesn't make one Tom Brady.

 

Most of what teams? They haven't even finished(going to all the camps) em all yet and the Raven's rookies on defense aren't counted as starters yet because we don't hand jobs out. Other teams have one or two rookies(with no rating) starting. You are just arguing for no reason now and not making any sense. 

 

I didn't argue with anyone.  I was agreeing with someone.  I didn't even read the whole conversation.  Calm down, man.  I know I can't argue with you when it comes to PFF.  You talk about it like you've been recruited into a cult or your dad invented it.  I enjoy reading their stuff, but don't get so crazy when someone disagrees with it.  It's not supposed to be taken as a personal insult.  PFF is another website with their own opinions based on formulas they came up with that provide numeric grades, but it shouldn't be taken as scientific fact like gravity or the amount of electrons found in Beryllium.

[5aiah]

I didn't argue with anyone.  I was agreeing with someone.  I didn't even read the whole conversation.  Calm down, man.  I know I can't argue with you when it comes to PFF.  You talk about it like you've been recruited into a cult or your dad invented it.  I enjoy reading their stuff, but don't get so crazy when someone disagrees with it.  It's not supposed to be taken as a personal insult.  PFF is another website with their own opinions based on formulas they came up with that provide numeric grades, but it shouldn't be taken as scientific fact like gravity or the amount of electrons found in Beryllium.

You are taking this way overboard bro. I'm not even agreeing with what they said about Flacco because I count him as elite so i actually disagree with some of the analysis. I don't get where you get the "personal insult angle" (and your post is actually quite ironic), you really are making that up to dodge my question. I'm just using the offseason articles because they have been more in depth about us going forward than other national media. You really are blowing this out of proportion because not only am I not taking it as fact but i disagree, but just want to have a debate about it. That being said you literally jumped into something without knowing much of what you were talking about. So I'll ask again, which teams are we more talented then that are graded the same as us. Can we stick to debate this time? I'm just interested in football. Lol.

[beanfigger]

You are taking this way overboard bro. I'm not even agreeing with what they said about Flacco because I count him as elite so i actually disagree with some of the analysis. I don't get where you get the "personal insult angle" (and your post is actually quite ironic), you really are making that up to dodge my question. I'm just using the offseason articles because they have been more in depth about us going forward than other national media. You really are blowing this out of proportion because not only am I not taking it as fact but i disagree, but just want to have a debate about it. That being said you literally jumped into something without knowing much of what you were talking about. So I'll ask again, which teams are we more talented then that are graded the same as us. Can we stick to debate this time? I'm just interested in football. Lol.

 

I was just wondering why you decided to go out of your way and start arguing with me when I wasn't even commenting on your post directly, or even mentioning it.  I especially don't understand that if you agree with what I was saying.  Your go to responses to people questioning PFF are "people don't understand it" and "people just can't see enough as they do with All-22" and the like.  I know you like the site, but you make assumptions about people when they disagree, and you defend the site as you would your own personal reputation.  When I write a post like I did and disagree with something from that site, even though I didn't respond to anything you said or mention you, you come in with "You are just arguing with no reason and not making any sense."

 

I didn't say anything cryptic that needs explaining.  Other teams (i.e. the Browns and Eagles) have close to the same amount of players graded above average and below average as us, and I disagree.  Simple as that.  I wasn't trying to damn the site and anyone who reads it.  I read it, and I enjoy it, like I said previously.  I wasn't trying to argue, and I'm not looking for an argument here.  It's my opinion.  If yours differs, you may let me know, but don't think I'm trying to attack you with it.  I only take things as far as they've already been taken.  When your response to me is that I have no reason, don't make sense, don't understand completely or anything like that, then you might get a similar response from me.  I just care about football, too.  I don't intend to upset people who think I'm disrespecting their favorite website.

[5aiah]

I was just wondering why you decided to go out of your way and start arguing with me when I wasn't even commenting on your post directly, or even mentioning it.  I especially don't understand that if you agree with what I was saying.  Your go to responses to people questioning PFF are "people don't understand it" and "people just can't see enough as they do with All-22" and the like.  I know you like the site, but you make assumptions about people when they disagree, and you defend the site as you would your own personal reputation.  When I write a post like I did and disagree with something from that site, even though I didn't respond to anything you said or mention you, you come in with "You are just arguing with no reason and not making any sense."

 

I didn't say anything cryptic that needs explaining.  Other teams (i.e. the Browns and Eagles) have close to the same amount of players graded above average and below average as us, and I disagree.  Simple as that.  I wasn't trying to damn the site and anyone who reads it.  I read it, and I enjoy it, like I said previously.  I wasn't trying to argue, and I'm not looking for an argument here.  It's my opinion.  If yours differs, you may let me know, but don't think I'm trying to attack you with it.  I only take things as far as they've already been taken.  When your response to me is that I have no reason, don't make sense, don't understand completely or anything like that, then you might get a similar response from me.  I just care about football, too.  I don't intend to upset people who think I'm disrespecting their favorite website.

You might want to take a look at your original post and then look at mine. You are trying to make this about something it isn't when all I mentioned was that you were off in regards to their analysis of the starting lineups and that it isn't as close as you think. Once again you are making this out to be WAY too personal when all I did was ask you about something that had nothing to do with stats or really anything else about the site. Its one article i think you misunderstood and just wanted to debate(even though I don't agree with everything they said). You are blowing this way out of proportion and going off topic as well as misunderstanding my original response. I keep trying to get back to that but you keep saying stuff about the site(which has no bearing on what I'm saying). You think they graded the Eagles and the Browns(which you didn't mention in the first place) close to us but i strongly disagree because of the QBs. There is a huge difference between bad and below average, and then above average, and on top of that, two of the below averages might not start, just are the front runners as of right now because of reasons unrelated to talent. I never said or implied you were attacking me(no idea where you get that from), just wondering exactly what your line of thinking was with such a statement. 

 

Edit: Also there are about the most used lineup, not even about the talent of the overall team bro.

[beanfigger]

You might want to take a look at your original post and then look at mine. You are trying to make this about something it isn't when all I mentioned was that you were off in regards to their analysis of the starting lineups and that it isn't as close as you think. Once again you are making this out to be WAY too personal when all I did was ask you about something that had nothing to do with stats or really anything else about the site. Its one article i think you misunderstood and just wanted to debate(even though I don't agree with everything they said). You are blowing this way out of proportion and going off topic as well as misunderstanding my original response. I keep trying to get back to that but you keep saying stuff about the site(which has no bearing on what I'm saying). You think they graded the Eagles and the Browns(which you didn't mention in the first place) close to us but i strongly disagree because of the QBs. There is a huge difference between bad and below average, and then above average, and on top of that, two of the below averages might not start, just are the front runners as of right now because of reasons unrelated to talent. I never said or implied you were attacking me(no idea where you get that from), just wondering exactly what your line of thinking was with such a statement. 

 

Edit: Also there are about the most used lineup, not even about the talent of the overall team bro.

 

Let me apologize first off if you were upset by what I posted at any point.  I debate/argue for sport and have, literally, no emotions tied up in it.  That has gotten me in trouble in the past because I don't realize that sometimes the other party is getting upset, and I hope this is not one of those situations.  I enjoy our debates, and I hold no ill will towards you.  It is always nice to find others with like interests who debate prudently.  If you aren't upset, continue reading on for my response.

 

The original response by me was as much due to how you've responded in other debates as it was this one.  "Attack" was not the best word for me to use when describing your initial response as it implies that you were attempting to knock me down, which I hope you weren't.  It was just that you had nothing to do with my original post and you told me I was arguing with no sense or reason.  I'm sorry that I wasn't as specific as you might have liked originally, but I wasn't talking to you.  I didn't misunderstand anything I read; I just didn't agree with it.  That's all.  I don't need you to jump in and question my logic.  I'm not the first to wonder why we are graded so closely to those teams, so I didn't feel I needed to be redundant and mention them again in the same thread.  I know it's about the starters only.  I know the rookies haven't been graded.  I know some of the lineups may change before Week 1.  Knowing all that, I still disagree with what I read.  If you agree with the articles, we can debate more specifically.  I'll try and give you a better sense of reason and logic.

 

Edit:  I wasn't trying to dodge any questions at any point, either.  I just noticed that you edited your original response to me, but that must have been after I quoted you and began typing.

[5aiah]

I know it's about the starters only.  I know the rookies haven't been graded.  I know some of the lineups may change before Week 1.  Knowing all that, I still disagree with what I read.  If you agree with the articles, we can debate more specifically.  I'll try and give you a better sense of reason and logic.

 

I wasn't upset at what you posted but more annoyed that you seemed to be missing the point(in the original post and then responding just to respond without adding anything but "im not an idiot") and then in subsequent posts went off about PFF, when i just wanted a discussion on our Lineups. That being said now that we can get back on topic, who should be higher in your opinion and how do you see the Eagles and Browns as being on our level in terms of these grades. Really want to get this thread back on topic.

[beanfigger]

I wasn't upset at what you posted but more annoyed that you seemed to be missing the point(in the original post and then responding just to respond without adding anything but "im not an idiot") and then in subsequent posts went off about PFF, when i just wanted a discussion on our Lineups. That being said now that we can get back on topic, who should be higher in your opinion and how do you see the Eagles and Browns as being on our level in terms of these grades. Really want to get this thread back on topic.

 

Actually, I don't necessarily have too much of an issue with our teams' grades.  I think some of the other teams are overrated, though.  I do believe the grades a lot of our individuals have at the moment will drastically improve after this season, but I understand why they are where they are now.  I have faith that young players like Osemele, Bynes and Gradkowski (I think he does start) will move up, along with players who were somewhat lower last year because of injury (Suggs, Webb, Ngata, Smith).  Flacco will move up, too.  It will be great to see him spend a whole season throwing to targets over the middle as well as on the sidelines and over the top.

[5aiah]

Actually, I don't necessarily have too much of an issue with our teams' grades.  I think some of the other teams are overrated, though. 

Oh ok. Of the Eagles and Browns who do you think deserves a lower rating? I think the Browns are actually pretty good on defense and will give us a run for our money like they did last season. Aside from the 29(30 soon) year old sophomore I think they are pretty solid and have a pretty good team but just in the wrong division to make playoffs. The Eagles were rated pretty ghastly on defense so I'm guessing you think their offense should be lower?

[beanfigger]

Oh ok. Of the Eagles and Browns who do you think deserves a lower rating? I think the Browns are actually pretty good on defense and will give us a run for our money like they did last season. Aside from the 29(30 soon) year old sophomore I think they are pretty solid and have a pretty good team but just in the wrong division to make playoffs. The Eagles were rated pretty ghastly on defense so I'm guessing you think their offense should be lower?

 

Unfortunately, the Eagles are shoved down my throat all the time because I live in Philly.  It pains me to say this because I like them, but DJax and Avant are overrated.  Jackson is too much of a disappearing act, and doesn't seem to have a wide skill set.  His one trick is tremendous, but one trick is one trick.  He is not used to his max potential I admit, but I can't assume he would flourish is used differently.  Avant is always praised for his hands.  He is a WR that I would love to have on our team, to be honest, but he regressed in my mind last season with an expanded role.  I don't think he's any more than average at this point, with a possibility of improving.  I also think the site is expecting Jason Peters to come back after a second season ending injury in, what, 3 seasons like nothing ever happened.  I hope for his and the team's sake that happens, but I'd like to see it.  This is what I mean when it comes to comparing the ratings for Eagles vs Ravens.  I feel a lot of Eagles are graded where they are predicted to end up this season if the max their potential, while the Ravens are in the proper place for the moment and need to prove they are worthy of taking that next step up the ladder in order to be graded there.

 

Edit:  I do agree that Mathis and McCoy are beasts for the Eagles O.  I have no problem with those ratings.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Unfortunately, the Eagles are shoved down my throat all the time because I live in Philly.  It pains me to say this because I like them, but DJax and Avant are overrated.  Jackson is too much of a disappearing act, and doesn't seem to have a wide skill set.  His one trick is tremendous, but one trick is one trick.  He is not used to his max potential I admit, but I can't assume he would flourish is used differently.  Avant is always praised for his hands.  He is a WR that I would love to have on our team, to be honest, but he regressed in my mind last season with an expanded role.  I don't think he's any more than average at this point, with a possibility of improving.  I also think the site is expecting Jason Peters to come back after a second season ending injury in, what, 3 seasons like nothing ever happened.  I hope for his and the team's sake that happens, but I'd like to see it.  This is what I mean when it comes to comparing the ratings for Eagles vs Ravens.  I feel a lot of Eagles are graded where they are predicted to end up this season if the max their potential, while the Ravens are in the proper place for the moment and need to prove they are worthy of taking that next step up the ladder in order to be graded there.

 

Edit:  I do agree that Mathis and McCoy are beasts for the Eagles O.  I have no problem with those ratings.

 

 

Agreed, completely. I too being from Philly get my daily dose of Mikey Mis, and believe a lot of the Eagles players are being rated on their potential, or their peak form instead of what their most recent play suggests.

 

I also read and enjoy PFF but just like any other attempts to make ranking and rating players a science is flawed. I'll use a guy like Dumervil to highlight my point. In Denver's defensive scheme the past 2 years, Dumervil was used lined up in a "Wide 9" a good majority of the time. Typically viewed as a pass rushing scheme, one would expect this to increase his sack, hit, hurry totals.

 

BUT he was used in this manner to force help over for the tackle... either the back to chip or the guard. In either event, it forced the O-line to shift toward his side to accommodate for him coming from such a wide position. There were other things at play, but the end result of this was that it would free up Von Miller to be 1-on-1 or if doubled, the DE on ILB on his side to rush free at the passer.

 

So, Von Miller got the stats and the glory and Dumervil's numbers declined compared to what he was used to doing when he was the top guy. What isn't taken into account in the ranking and ratings (bc it cant be quantified) is how well Dumervil performed his role within the scheme. But being that dummy guy chewing up blocks was the #1 factor in Von Miller having the success he did.

 

So Dumervil comes out being ranked an average player when having an understanding of what the defense is trying to accomplish tells a different story. That was his role and he played it very well. Thinking hes a pass rusher and didn't get a hit, hurry, or sack he probably gets graded low on those plays by a PFF, while his D coordinator knows he played perfectly.

 

And its these unquantifiable things that make it flawed. Also, just watching a play doesn't tell the entire story (I don't care how much footage and camera angles you have!).... if you weren't in the huddle and practice, you don't know what each player's job was on that play - and if you don't know what his assignment was how can you grade him effectively?

[5aiah]

Unfortunately, the Eagles are shoved down my throat all the time because I live in Philly.  It pains me to say this because I like them, but DJax and Avant are overrated.  Jackson is too much of a disappearing act, and doesn't seem to have a wide skill set.  His one trick is tremendous, but one trick is one trick.  He is not used to his max potential I admit, but I can't assume he would flourish is used differently.  Avant is always praised for his hands.  He is a WR that I would love to have on our team, to be honest, but he regressed in my mind last season with an expanded role.  I don't think he's any more than average at this point, with a possibility of improving.  I also think the site is expecting Jason Peters to come back after a second season ending injury in, what, 3 seasons like nothing ever happened.  I hope for his and the team's sake that happens, but I'd like to see it.  This is what I mean when it comes to comparing the ratings for Eagles vs Ravens.  I feel a lot of Eagles are graded where they are predicted to end up this season if the max their potential, while the Ravens are in the proper place for the moment and need to prove they are worthy of taking that next step up the ladder in order to be graded there.

 

Edit:  I do agree that Mathis and McCoy are beasts for the Eagles O.  I have no problem with those ratings.

Interesting so you would rate Djaxx at above average? I can see your reasoning there but his big play ability and the attention he draws definitely earns him his rank. Have to remember he plays with Vick(inaccurate and turnover prone)or the rookie Foles, and most of his issues stem from conduct and scheme not skill. Jason Avant is exactly as advertised in the slot with good route running and hands I think his grade is perfect considering they are showing the nickel formation with him in the slot.If he was on the outside I would agree with you. He is definitely not some average slot receiver. Peters I agree with, he could be a big question mark but he got the same treatment as Webby. Both are rated in terms of them coming back healthy and getting back to where they were. Peters was fantastic in 2011 so I can see why they would give him the nod. You mentioned the Browns being overrated. How do you see our division rivals?

[beanfigger]

Interesting so you would rate Djaxx at above average? I can see your reasoning there but his big play ability and the attention he draws definitely earns him his rank. Have to remember he plays with Vick(inaccurate and turnover prone)or the rookie Foles, and most of his issues stem from conduct and scheme not skill. Jason Avant is exactly as advertised in the slot with good route running and hands I think his grade is perfect considering they are showing the nickel formation with him in the slot.If he was on the outside I would agree with you. He is definitely not some average slot receiver. Peters I agree with, he could be a big question mark but he got the same treatment as Webby. Both are rated in terms of them coming back healthy and getting back to where they were. Peters was fantastic in 2011 so I can see why they would give him the nod. You mentioned the Browns being overrated. How do you see our division rivals?

 

I know DJax is perceived to be held back, but even if I agree he could do more with a better scheme and QB, I can't consider that a fact until he proves it.  I like Avant, but most in Philly thought he would step up a lot bigger than he did when his role in the offense increased.  He didn't drop a ton of balls, but the ones he dropped were big (potential TDs and drive killers).  He doesn't seem to have that clutch gene that would warrant him a higher grade.  Also, the difference between Peters and Webb is that Peters didn't play at all last season.  I expect him to be fine, but again, that doesn't mean it should just be assumed he will be and graded as such.  If that's the case, Suggs should be graded based on his DPOY season and not downgraded because he actually came back and played hurt to help his team despite not being 100%.  In spite of all this, I'm kind of rooting for those grades in Philly to pan out because this city is much more fun when the Eagles are relevant.

 

Anyway, we are talking a lot about other teams now in the wrong section of the forum.  Because of that, I won't go into too much about the Browns' grades.  I just don't see their pickups (Bess, Bryant, Krueger) having as much success for them this season, for various reasons, as our pickups (Huff, Dumervil, Smith, Canty) will have for us.  Therefore, I think those grades are basically meaningless.

[beasy2487]

:popcorn drama:

[5aiah]

I know DJax is perceived to be held back, but even if I agree he could do more with a better scheme and QB, I can't consider that a fact until he proves it.  I like Avant, but most in Philly thought he would step up a lot bigger than he did when his role in the offense increased.  He didn't drop a ton of balls, but the ones he dropped were big (potential TDs and drive killers).  He doesn't seem to have that clutch gene that would warrant him a higher grade.  Also, the difference between Peters and Webb is that Peters didn't play at all last season.  I expect him to be fine, but again, that doesn't mean it should just be assumed he will be and graded as such.  If that's the case, Suggs should be graded based on his DPOY season and not downgraded because he actually came back and played hurt to help his team despite not being 100%.  In spite of all this, I'm kind of rooting for those grades in Philly to pan out because this city is much more fun when the Eagles are relevant.

 

Anyway, we are talking a lot about other teams now in the wrong section of the forum.  Because of that, I won't go into too much about the Browns' grades.  I just don't see their pickups (Bess, Bryant, Krueger) having as much success for them this season, for various reasons, as our pickups (Huff, Dumervil, Smith, Canty) will have for us.  Therefore, I think those grades are basically meaningless.

Actually you kind of bring it right back to where we need to be because we really only disagree on Avant(he is an above average slot receiver no matter how you slice it). You think Suggs should be graded higher, that is interesting. Will he be able to climb back to elite, as the best at his position?  We hear he is in the best shape of his life so it is possible but this particular site had him as only the second best at his position(majority of snaps) the year he won DPOY. This year will test whether he still is a dominant force on the outside of the trenches.

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/07/16/page-of-fame-4-3-defensive-ends/

 

 

:popcorn drama:

Drama? This turned into quite the nice discussion.

[beanfigger]

:popcorn drama:

 

http://www.memecenter.com/fun/434541/when-someone-tells-me-my-meme-just-got-featured

[beanfigger]

:popcorn drama:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JbDUpTMX0k

[beasy2487]

Drama? This turned into quite the nice discussion.

 

Lots of "nice discussions" going on.  :TVWatchingSmiley: << *ascends to All-22 heaven*

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JbDUpTMX0k

 

:plus-un2:

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Actually you kind of bring it right back to where we need to be because we really only disagree on Avant(he is an above average slot receiver no matter how you slice it). You think Suggs should be graded higher, that is interesting. Will he be able to climb back to elite, as the best at his position? We hear he is in the best shape of his life so it is possible but this particular site had him as only the second best at his position(majority of snaps) the year he won DPOY. This year will test whether he still is a dominant force on the outside of the trenches.

Can I slice it this way? Avants TD total for last year -- Zero, none, nada.

Decent amount of yards at first glance but with Maclin suffering from injuries, as bean stated tey were counting on avant to really step up to be that possession guy. 600 Yards and 0 TDs.... Don't know if I'd say that's above average. Probably more like average or below average especially for a go to, chain mover.

Avant has 10 total TDs in his 7 year career.... Now I know that's where the big guys get it done, but come on now - that was shocking to me.

[Sami84]

Actually you kind of bring it right back to where we need to be because we really only disagree on Avant(he is an above average slot receiver no matter how you slice it). You think Suggs should be graded higher, that is interesting. Will he be able to climb back to elite, as the best at his position?  We hear he is in the best shape of his life so it is possible but this particular site had him as only the second best at his position(majority of snaps) the year he won DPOY. This year will test whether he still is a dominant force on the outside of the trenches.

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/07/16/page-of-fame-4-3-defensive-ends/

 

 

Drama? This turned into quite the nice discussion.

 

 

 

 

Suggs will be elite this year. 

[5aiah]

Can I slice it this way? Avants TD total for last year -- Zero, none, nada.

Decent amount of yards at first glance but with Maclin suffering from injuries, as bean stated tey were counting on avant to really step up to be that possession guy. 600 Yards and 0 TDs.... Don't know if I'd say that's above average. Probably more like average or below average especially for a go to, chain mover.

Avant has 10 total TDs in his 7 year career.... Now I know that's where the big guys get it done, but come on now - that was shocking to me.

Pretty sure first downs would be a better indicator here than TDs. Your argument is weak considering he is a slot corner and the fact that he isn't really the target in the redzone often. Average or below average for a chain mover huh? How about 31 first downs for a slot receiver who plays with inconsistent QBs and a terrible pass blocking line all while seeing limited time relative to the other receivers in the league with numbers close to his. If you are going to use the term "chain mover" at least use the corresponding stat.

 

Suggs will be elite this year. 

I agree. He is going to show those young dudes(Watt and Von) how its done.

[Sami84]

Also as ive mentioned  many times. Daryl Smith is kinda like london fletcher. he wont age much. Hes just such a smart player. I actualy believe, and feel free to attack me for this blasphemous sounding comment, i believe if he were a raven in 2004 he would have taken bart scotts place and been a perennial all pro. I loved him coming out of college and i cringed when he went to jacksonville. Bart Scott was a bad man, but daryl smith was/is better.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Pretty sure first downs would be a better indicator here than TDs. Your argument is weak considering he is a slot corner and the fact that he isn't really the target in the redzone often. Average or below average for a chain mover huh? How about 31 first downs for a slot receiver who plays with inconsistent QBs and a terrible pass blocking line all while seeing limited time relative to the other receivers in the league with numbers close to his. If you are going to use the term "chain mover" at least use the corresponding stat.

I agree. He is going to show those young dudes(Watt and Von) how its done.

Fine lets split the difference. How about we go to your bible PFF for a signature stat of 1st down and TDs per route run...

And where does avant rank??? Oh, just behind jeremy kerley and Chaz Achilles -- other well above average wide receivers for sure.

Guess those 2 had much better QB play then?

This stat highly favors chain movers too, 1st down much easier to come by than TDs so I don't want to hear that excuse.

[5aiah]

Fine lets split the difference. How about we go to your bible PFF for a signature stat of 1st down and TDs per route run...

And where does avant rank??? Oh, just behind jeremy kerley and Chaz Achilles -- other well above average wide receivers for sure.

Guess those 2 had much better QB play then?

This stat highly favors chain movers too, 1st down much easier to come by than TDs so I don't want to hear that excuse.

Don't think you get how that stat works. Since he is still running routes while not being targeted that would bring his rate down. This is why you can't use advanced stats for everything because if you don't know what it skews then it is all for naught. You don't understand that those guys were probably targeted more often on a higer percentage of routes because they play with no one at time while Avant is playing with a number of playmakers who are also running their routes while he is just a decoy to free them up deep.

 

Here bro. This is a percentage stat that will help you see what I am talking about. Look where Kerley is on this list and look at Avant. Also look at the company Avant keeps.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/03/18/sig-stats-first-down-touchdown-conversions-wrs/