Ron Jaworski's top 32 QB's 2013

[flynismo]

Ah see im pretty sure thats a strawman because that's not what I was saying. Never said it was the most important, just that you undervalue what they did. That's when you guys came up with a bunch a crappy stats that didn't show the whole picture. I'm not diminishing Flacco performance, its just that I know what he actually did, where I think you are exaggerating his performance and being a bit of a homer overall in regards to Flacco. It was a balanced effort, not some one man supershow. It doesn't make him the best QB in the league, just pretty close. Only one QB in history has done what Flacco just did, but Flacco still hasn't done what many other QBs did. I bet he will this season though. Not bashing Flacco at all, I just know homerism when I see it. I think Flacco's best performances are ahead of him. 

 

If it's homerism, then that means it is illogical and unreasonable opinions. In which case, it should be very simple for you to dispell...which you have not done yet.

[flynismo]

The point is that our defense got destroyed the second half, and nearly cost us a super bowl. I cant sit here and say with a straight face that we should credit the defense for our victory.

 

Come to think of it, it is like me shooting somebody in the face, and being applauded as the hero because I rushed the guy to the hospital before he died.

[flynismo]

But hey, the guy is going to be ranked no less than top 6...the only guys that could possibly be ahead of him are all future hall of famers (other than Ryan, which remains to be seen)...you can tell a lot about a man by the company he keeps.

[berad]

But hey, the guy is going to be ranked no less than top 6...the only guys that could possibly be ahead of him are all future hall of famers (other than Ryan, which remains to be seen)...you can tell a lot about a man by the company he keeps.

 

ratedr said Ryan came in at #5 which means Flacco is ahead. The Force is balanced.

[FerrariFan87]

Flacco should be in the Top 4, battling with A-Rod, Brady and Manning... not bad company.

 

I don't see Jaws putting Joe ahead of any of those guys at this point, although he's proven he can beat Brady and Manning in THEIR house.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

ratedr said Ryan came in at #5 which means Flacco is ahead. The Force is balanced.

 

Yea I knew Jaws would never put Ryan ahead without having won the big game yet.

 

So where does he fall in the Top 4?

 

The thing I like about Jaws list (aside from Flacco being high up on it) is that he doesn't look at the numbers and popular opinion.

 

Hes evaluating on game tape and looking at mechanics, ability to make all the throws, arm strength, decision making, clutchability (can I coin this term?), the play of his receivers, and doing so within the context of the system that QB plays in and how it either accentuates that QB's strengths, hides their weaknesses, or holds them back.

 

I do think its one of the most "in-a-vacuum" evaluations ive seen year in year out. He really does try to strip away all the factors that may contribute to their success and stats in order to drill down to the essence of what makes them better or worse than others.

[berad]

Yea I knew Jaws would never put Ryan ahead without having won the big game yet.

 

So where does he fall in the Top 4?

 

The thing I like about Jaws list (aside from Flacco being high up on it) is that he doesn't look at the numbers and popular opinion.

 

Hes evaluating on game tape and looking at mechanics, ability to make all the throws, arm strength, decision making, clutchability (can I coin this term?), the play of his receivers, and doing so within the context of the system that QB plays in and how it either accentuates that QB's strengths, hides their weaknesses, or holds them back.

 

I do think its one of the most "in-a-vacuum" evaluations ive seen year in year out. He really does try to strip away all the factors that may contribute to their success and stats in order to drill down to the essence of what makes them better or worse than others.

 

Yes, exactly. Even though it's subjective and everyone has their opinions, Jaworski is one of the best at breaking down film.

 

Flacco will probably be #4, too hard to displace the top guys right now especially when they came off great seasons of their own.

[5aiah]

No, the Super Bowl determines the Super Bowl winner.

 

And again, when defining best QB youre just establishing YOUR CRITERIA.

 

And IF that is your criteria then your #1 should be Peyton or Brady bc they've done it longer, more consistently that Rodgers. but the problem is youre factoring in current and projected performance and since Peyton and Brady are nearing the end of their careers youre dropping them on your list. Which is fine, that's your personal criteria.

That is the criteria used for the best. It is not just mine. You will see that from this list being created and asking most people period we use the same criteria to decide who is the best, and that Arod comes out on top. You keep talking about Peyton and Brady but they are no longer as good as Arod,who could possibly be one of the best ever just like they already are. 

 

This statement applies perfectly to Flacco. How so?

 

Well, first of all, I would disagree that we were significantly less talented than the other teams. We were playing with key players hurt all year, in a new scheme, etc...just looking at pure talent -- we were easily among the most talent. However, that talent didn't translate into production on the defensive side of the ball most of the year, now did it?

Smarts,Toughness,willpower, and a bit of luck was more responsible for our run then outright talent. We were among the most talented,duh, we were in the playoffs, but we faced multiple teams who were more talented and others who we didn't play can claim to be more talented as well.

 

If it's homerism, then that means it is illogical and unreasonable opinions. In which case, it should be very simple for you to dispell...which you have not done yet.

Meh its not that your opinion is completely unreasonable or illogical just that your criteria is clearly as biased as you are so as to allow Flacco to be number one QB. That is more what I meant by a homer, the lack of objectivity. Any objective NFL fan in the country can tell you who the best QB is, because its not that close. It is one guy then a level of others. 

[5aiah]

Flacco should be ahead of Manning imo. I really only see Brady as the threat to keep him from number 2.

[atljbo]

I can live with this... Rather its 5 or 6 (RYAN) .... Flacco won the SB so like i said with the top 100 ... Its only right to rate him very highly

[flynismo]

Meh its not that your opinion is completely unreasonable or illogical just that your criteria is clearly as biased as you are so as to allow Flacco to be number one QB. That is more what I meant by a homer, the lack of objectivity. Any objective NFL fan in the country can tell you who the best QB is, because its not that close. It is one guy then a level of others. 

 

Well, I think you've missed what I said several times in this thread. You can make an argument for Flacco to be #1, just like you can make an argument for that Arod character, or  Manning or Brady.

 

Career achievements, it is Manning and Brady, nobody else is close.

 

Arod, if the criteria is skill set and recent production.

 

So those criteria are biased towards those guys.

 

I am presenting criteria that is biased towards Flacco -- recent production, skill set, intangibles and success when it matters most, all as one package.

 

And before you or anyone else says it -- no, you cannot formulate a REASONABLE argument for just anyone to be #1.

 

So I guess we are all biased in that sense, and are no more or less credible than the next guy...it all depends on which side of the fence you are on

[berad]

I can live with this... Rather its 5 or 6.... Flacco won the SB so like i said with the top 100 ... Its only right to rate him very highly

 

I bet you guys are relishing Ryan over Brees, though haha. Make sure to let the Saints fans know all about it :P

[flynismo]

Flacco should be ahead of Manning imo. I really only see Brady as the threat to keep him from number 2.

 

That's the spirit!

[atljbo]

I bet you guys are relishing Ryan over Brees, though haha. Make sure to let the Saints fans know all about it :P

U just dont know how intense the Falcons/ Saints beef is.... Im loving it... They really cant stand Ryan now..lol.. This and Cam saying he still a Falcons fan ...lol.. All we have to do is lock up Ryan to a contract and possibly sign Seymour... My summer is complete..lol

[5aiah]

Well, I think you've missed what I said several times in this thread. You can make an argument for Flacco to be #1, just like you can make an argument for that Arod character, or  Manning or Brady.

 

Career achievements, it is Manning and Brady, nobody else is close.

 

Arod, if the criteria is skill set and recent production.

 

So those criteria are biased towards those guys.

 

I am presenting criteria that is biased towards Flacco -- recent production, skill set, intangibles and success when it matters most, all as one package.

 

And before you or anyone else says it -- no, you cannot formulate a REASONABLE argument for just anyone to be #1.

 

So I guess we are all biased in that sense, and are no more or less credible than the next guy...it all depends on which side of the fence you are on

Like I said the criteria for best QB that most use is Skill set, recent production, and projected production. Arod is the only clear number one there. It is objective was my point. I am biased toward Flacco but giving an objective opinion. Yours is pretty biased toward one guy which is not what we are aiming for when looking at the best in anything. 

[5aiah]

U just dont know how intense the Falcons/ Saints beef is.... Im loving it... They really cant stand Ryan now..lol.. This and Cam saying he still a Falcons fan ...lol.. All we have to do is lock up Ryan to a contract and possibly sign Seymour... My summer is complete..lol

He messed up there. Brees is still better than Ryan for sure. But enjoy it.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

That is the criteria used for the best. It is not just mine. You will see that from this list being created and asking most people period we use the same criteria to decide who is the best, and that Arod comes out on top. You keep talking about Peyton and Brady but they are no longer as good as Arod,who could possibly be one of the best ever just like they already are. 

 

Smarts,Toughness,willpower, and a bit of luck was more responsible for our run then outright talent. We were among the most talented,duh, we were in the playoffs, but we faced multiple teams who were more talented and others who we didn't play can claim to be more talented as well.

 

Meh its not that your opinion is completely unreasonable or illogical just that your criteria is clearly as biased as you are so as to allow Flacco to be number one QB. That is more what I meant by a homer, the lack of objectivity. Any objective NFL fan in the country can tell you who the best QB is, because its not that close. It is one guy then a level of others. 

 

 

Sigh**, where to being with this one....

 

What is this criteria?? Please spell it out for me so we can evaluate.

 

And if this universal criteria that most people follow exists why is there a debate over best QB all time? Is it Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Favre, Young, Montana, Marino, Brees, Unitas? Someone else?

 

Shouldn't we be able to just plug them into this accepted criteria you have and come out with 1 true best guy?

[5aiah]

Sigh**, where to being with this one....

 

What is this criteria?? Please spell it out for me so we can evaluate.

 

And if this universal criteria that most people follow exists why is there a debate over best QB all time? Is it Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Favre, Young, Montana, Marino, Brees, Unitas? Someone else?

 

Shouldn't we be able to just plug them into this accepted criteria you have and come out with 1 true best guy?

Unitas. Done

[5aiah]

Sigh**, where to being with this one....

 

What is this criteria?? Please spell it out for me so we can evaluate.

 

And if this universal criteria that most people follow exists why is there a debate over best QB all time? Is it Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Favre, Young, Montana, Marino, Brees, Unitas? Someone else?

 

Shouldn't we be able to just plug them into this accepted criteria you have and come out with 1 true best guy?

Also like only 4 of those guys actually are in the convo. Who ever nominated Favre over Young or Montana? In fact most have 4 of those guys as the number one. Its just a generation and era divide. Its a lot more objective than what you are trying to do with Flacco.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Like I said the criteria for best QB that most use is Skill set, recent production, and projected production. Arod is the only clear number one there. It is objective was my point. I am biased toward Flacco but giving an objective opinion. Yours is pretty biased toward one guy which is not what we are aiming for when looking at the best in anything. 

 

I'd say winning big games is part of being a great QB, so leaving that out of the equation is biased.

 

Changing the criteria to say in order to be #1 your initials must be J.F. is biased toward one guy. Saying intangibles and winning in the playoffs is biased toward one guy isn't the case.

 

I don't play fantasy football. Ive always valued winning, intangibles and clutch in every sport.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Unitas. Done

 

So what is the criteria then?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Also like only 4 of those guys actually are in the convo. Who ever nominated Favre over Young or Montana? In fact most have 4 of those guys as the number one. Its just a generation and era divide. Its a lot more objective than what you are trying to do with Flacco.

 

 

So, youre pushing a bunch of personal opinion as objective truth....

 

Still waiting for this universal criteria for evaluating QBs.

[BirdWatcher]

Please resume discussing 2013 QBs, which is what this thread is about.

[flynismo]

Like I said the criteria for best QB that most use is Skill set, recent production, and projected production. Arod is the only clear number one there. It is objective was my point. I am biased toward Flacco but giving an objective opinion. Yours is pretty biased toward one guy which is not what we are aiming for when looking at the best in anything. 

 

That's what you dont get -- the simple act of defining criteria is not necessarily being objective.

Why are intangibles, performance in big games, being clutch, the system played in, the supporting cast not parameters?

For exampe, for years, people tried to claim Brady is ovverated because of his OL and system.

 

So dismissing those factors is YOUR OR SOMEONE ELSE'S criteria that YOU use. Which is fine. But it isn't objective, it is essentially biasing the results

[5aiah]

Please resume discussing 2013 QBs, which is what this thread is about.

Back to Flacco moving up to number 2. Lol. 

[5aiah]

So, youre pushing a bunch of personal opinion as objective truth....

 

Still waiting for this universal criteria for evaluating QBs.

Skill set,Intangibles,Support,Opponents strength,Longevity,Success, etc.

[5aiah]

The list we are watching unfold only backs me up. Arod will of course be number one for the reasons I mentioned above.

[flynismo]

The list we are watching unfold only backs me up. Arod will of course be number one for the reasons I mentioned above.

Sigh ... 10 pages later and you are still missing the point

[gabefergy]

So, youre pushing a bunch of personal opinion as objective truth....

Still waiting for this universal criteria for evaluating QBs.

I love when people try to make opinion objective...clearly there are a thousand different arguments from a thousand different people. That's why ranking QBs is always a debate and always will be. There is no defined set of criteria. I would say for me its a balance if raw talent, statistical production, performance in the clutch, winning the big games, and then there are intangibles that can't really be defined on paper.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Skill set,Intangibles,Support,Opponents strength,Longevity,Success, etc.

 

Support? what does that mean? How do you measure skill set and intangibles? Is strength arm strength like bicep curls? Pushups? Or how far one can throw the ball? If that's it, what if the guy can throw it 100 yds from his knees (Jamarcus Russell anyone? but cant hit an open man)...

 

Point is, first your criteria is ridiculous, but that's an opinion. But then getting into it, how do you measure each, who's measuring them, and how much weight does each carry in the evaluation?

 

Bc using YOUR criteria I could still make an argument for Flacco. He has an elite skill set, can make every throw in the pocket or on the run and reads the field incredibly well. has great touch. Point Rodgers

 

Hes a great leader, the most clutch in the game right now, and is the best in the league at bouncing back after a bad performance, throw or drive. Point Flacco.

 

His supporting cast was weaker on offense than was Rodgers yet Joe won. Point Flacco.

 

Strength, not sure Rodgers may be able to bench more but Joe throws a better more accurate deep ball. Point Flacco

 

They've both played 5 years, but Rodgers had 3 years of clipboard holding. So longevity is a wash, although Flacco has had more playoff and winning success than Rodgers in his 5 years of playing - so point Flacco.

 

Success - Both have a Super Bowl win, but Flacco has 3 AFCCG appearances, more playoff appearances and wins.. Point Flacco.

 

So based on YOUR criteria I just formulated an argument where Flacco is the clear better QB.

 

But then you could say well skill set weighs 10X as much as any other criteria so Rodgers is better.

 

ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE AND OPINIONATED.