Ron Jaworski's top 32 QB's 2013

[jimmypowder]

Flacco is not on Rodgers level. I can't believe this ifs even a debate.

I agree with this but neither is Brady,Manning and the rest of the very good Qb's. Manning and Brady were

at one time in their careers but not presently. And we  saw what Manning can do in cold weather,probably due to

playing in a dome for most of his career.

[hawkprey]

I'm looking at when it counted bro. Also don't even dare talk about season stats when everyone knows what happened once playoffs hit for the Ravens. Really gonna use stats, and season stats no less, knowing how big a difference it was for us......

 

Also you are missing the point which is that Arod is better. Refute or agree?

Well "When it counted", Flacco has been better than Rodgers. So by that standard you should think Flacco is better. Most people would argue that Rodgers is better because his passer rating has been much higher, but I guess since that's all regular season mumbo jumbo you don't buy into it.

[callahan09]

Because he is better at everything except arm strength and Flacco is only marginally better in that area. Packers defense was trash too. You guys don't take into account how good our defense was in the playoffs. Those two special teams TDs in denver and the fiasco after the blackout have clouded your mind.

 

Here are some facts about the 2012 Baltimore Ravens Super Bowl Winning Team Defense:

• Most Points Allowed, Single Post-Season by Super Bowl Winning Team: 88
• Most Yards Allowed, Single Post-Season: 1713
  • 2nd Most: 1403 (1987 Denver Broncos)
  • 2nd Most by Super Bowl Winning Team: 1336 (2005 Pittsburgh Steelers)
• Most Pass Yards Allowed, Single Post-Season: 1146
• Most Rush Yards Allowed, Single Post-Season: 567
• 6th Most Yards Allowed Per Play by Super Bowl Winning Team: 5.4209
• Most Points Allowed in Super Bowl by Winning Team: 31 (T-1978 Pittsburgh Steelers)
• Most Yards Allowed in Super Bowl by Winning Team: 468
• 10th Most Pass Yards Allowed in Super Bowl by Winning Team: 286
• Most Rush Yards Allowed in Super Bowl by Winning Team: 182
• Most Yards Per Play Allowed in Super Bowl by Winning Team: 7.8000
  • 2nd Most Yards Per Play Allowed in Super Bowl (Including Losing Teams)
    • Most: 8.3611 (1987 Denver Broncos)

And how about his support from the running game out of all 47 Super Bowl Winning Teams.

• 22nd Most Yards Per Attempt, Single Post-Season: 3.88
• 34th Most Rush Touchdowns, Single Post-Season: 3 (T-With 8 other teams, only 5 teams had fewer)
• 38th Most Rush Yards in Super Bowl: 93
• 42nd Most Yards Per Attempt in Super Bowl: 2.66
• 39th Most Rush Touchdowns in Super Bowl: 0 (T-Last rank with 8 other teams)

Looks to me like Flacco had one of the worst defenses AND one of the worst running games in Super Bowl Winner history to help him along.

[Ravenseconbeast]

Here are some facts about the 2012 Baltimore Ravens Super Bowl Winning Team Defense:

• Most Points Allowed, Single Post-Season by Super Bowl Winning Team: 88
• Most Yards Allowed, Single Post-Season: 1713
  • 2nd Most: 1403 (1987 Denver Broncos)
  • 2nd Most by Super Bowl Winning Team: 1336 (2005 Pittsburgh Steelers)
• Most Pass Yards Allowed, Single Post-Season: 1146
• Most Rush Yards Allowed, Single Post-Season: 567
• 6th Most Yards Allowed Per Play by Super Bowl Winning Team: 5.4209
• Most Points Allowed in Super Bowl by Winning Team: 31 (T-1978 Pittsburgh Steelers)
• Most Yards Allowed in Super Bowl by Winning Team: 468
• 10th Most Pass Yards Allowed in Super Bowl by Winning Team: 286
• Most Rush Yards Allowed in Super Bowl by Winning Team: 182
• Most Yards Per Play Allowed in Super Bowl by Winning Team: 7.8000
  • 2nd Most Yards Per Play Allowed in Super Bowl (Including Losing Teams)
    • Most: 8.3611 (1987 Denver Broncos)

And how about his support from the running game out of all 47 Super Bowl Winning Teams.

• 22nd Most Yards Per Attempt, Single Post-Season: 3.88
• 34th Most Rush Touchdowns, Single Post-Season: 3 (T-With 8 other teams, only 5 teams had fewer)
• 38th Most Rush Yards in Super Bowl: 93
• 42nd Most Yards Per Attempt in Super Bowl: 2.66
• 39th Most Rush Touchdowns in Super Bowl: 0 (T-Last rank with 8 other teams)

Looks to me like Flacco had one of the worst defenses AND one of the worst running games in Super Bowl Winner history to help him along.

Are these playoffs stats or regular season? 

 

Would be a big difference considering we had plenty of players injured before we got ready for playoffs

[Alexir]

Those stats made me laugh. We held Luck, Manning and Brady under 20 pts. Defense isn't special teams btw.

Flacco did a great job and we couldn't of done it without the leap he made in playoff. Just can't let you knock a defense that was playing much better than how your stats say it. That blackout took momentum away from offense and defense. Before that, they couldn't move on us

[callahan09]

Those stats made me laugh. We held Luck, Manning and Brady under 20 pts. Defense isn't special teams btw.

Flacco did a great job and we couldn't of done it without the leap he made in playoff. Just can't let you knock a defense that was playing much better than how your stats say it. That blackout took momentum away from offense and defense. Before that, they couldn't move on us

Irrelevant.  The whole point of making an argument that our defense was better than we give credit for is to diminish Flacco's accomplishment.  Basically, he's trying to say "Who cares that Flacco won the Super Bowl, he had a good defense to help him."  The fact remains, whether it was defense or special teams or whatever else that allowed all of those points (and by the way the vast majority of what I was describing came down to yards and the possession battle that comes along with that, not just points scored), that Flacco's offense had to overcome it.  Even if the defense allowed 0 points, it is still relevant to bring up that the *team* allowed 88 points in those playoffs, the most ever for a team to go on and win the Super Bowl, and those were points that Flacco had to overcome without the help of a good running game.

[Alexir]

Running game was terrible. Have you factored the lack of run game into the reason why the defense slumped in 2nd half?

I have no idea why one has to be what carried the other. Flacco and the defense were awesome, you can have both.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I'm looking at when it counted bro. Also don't even dare talk about season stats when everyone knows what happened once playoffs hit for the Ravens. Really gonna use stats, and season stats no less, knowing how big a difference it was for us......

 

Also you are missing the point which is that Arod is better. Refute or agree?

 

So youll compare defenses based on playoffs "when it counted", but wont use the same premise to compare QB's??

 

Don't you dare talk about Flacco's inconsistencies in the regular season when you know he's been record breaking good when it comes to the playoffs. You're gonna use stats, and regular season stats no less, the show how much better Rodgers is?

 

Also, the Packers last Super Bowl, Rodgers was ABYSMAL against the Bears and if it wasn't for the defense never would have made it to the Super Bowl. Brees same thing when he won his. EVERY QB NEEDS GOOD DEFENSIVE PLAY TO WIN.

 

So, which one does it more often when it matters?

 

 

My knock on Rodgers and these other QBs for the most part is I don't think theyd allow for a dominant run game. I don't think theyd be ok handing the ball off 30 times. They want the ball and want the game in their hands no matter what, and sure they'll usually win. But when it doesn't work they cant transition into something else. They force the issue.

 

Joe will do whatever is best for the team - whether he agrees with it or not (evidenced by the years with Cam, where most thought Joe sucked bc that's what the gameplan called for) and while they were winning he didn't ever complain.

 

Joe may not individually be as talented as Rodgers, but I think he gives his team a better chance to win at the highest level more consistently. He lets everyone else do what they need to be their best, and will play his role when the team needs it. If its sling the ball around and put the team on his shoulders he does it. If its hand the ball off 30 times and make your 1 or 2 downfield shots count, he does it. If its slowly move the chains, convert 3rd down and control the clock/field position, he does it.

 

The other guys just rack up points and yards which is good enough to win a lot, but not when the games get real in the playoffs.

 

So, maybe I should clarify. Joe may not be the #1 QB. But I honestly believe hes the best football player at the QB position. Hes the best QB fit for what I consider the be the best and most well rounded team in the league.

[ratedr]

Those stats made me laugh. We held Luck, Manning and Brady under 20 pts. Defense isn't special teams btw.

Flacco did a great job and we couldn't of done it without the leap he made in playoff. Just can't let you knock a defense that was playing much better than how your stats say it. That blackout took momentum away from offense and defense. Before that, they couldn't move on us

I agree, yards are deceiving. While the defense wasn't amazing, they did force a ton of turnovers. That can't be overlooked.

[ratedr]

Ryan was ranked #5. Looks like Flacco will be #4.

[gabefergy]

Ryan was ranked #5. Looks like Flacco will be #4.

Time to go troll the ATL boards :D

[CARavensFan]

Time to go troll the ATL boards :D

 

Have fun lol

[5aiah]

So youll compare defenses based on playoffs "when it counted", but wont use the same premise to compare QB's??

When it counted,what,one year? Arod has a ring as well. Also to end this pointless debate, who is the more talented QB?

 

I agree, yards are deceiving. While the defense wasn't amazing, they did force a ton of turnovers. That can't be overlooked.

What this guy said.

I mean it seems like its harder and harder to stop teams from getting alot of yards,the NFL likes it that way. I just remember the facts which are:

Peyton Manning had two special teams TD help in the denver game. That's 14 points not on the defense. Don't talk to me about yards lets talk points. Which is what the Ravens always are good at no matter how bad we are is locking down in the redzone. So stop the yards talk.

Peyton Manning and his coach decided to kneel down to overtime for a reason. Its not because Peyton had a runny nose.

Peyton one of the greatest QBs of all time was not only stopped in overtime by our defense but was forced into throwing the game losing pick.

The patriots were held to 13 points. How many yards? Who cares.

When we needed the defense the most in the redzone near the end of the game,what happened? Oh right they shut those lame niners down,again and again and again.

Take your yards mess of an argument somewhere else bro.

[Gordo52]

I love ya Jaws! :D

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

When it counted,what,one year? Arod has a ring as well. Also to end this pointless debate, who is the more talented QB?

 

 

He's won more playoff games in his first 5 years than anyone in history. Hes won more than Rodgers period. Hes won more on the road than anyone in history period.

 

And Rodgers never would have got his ring if his defense didn't bail him out in the NFC championship against the Bears, where he completed 55%, had a 56 passer rating, threw for 200 yds, 0 TDs and 2 INTs.

 

And before you say it, yes I know Joe has put up clunkers in the playoffs where the D bailed him out, but not on his Super Bowl run... and further that's the truth with any QB who wins a lot. The point is every QB whos won a super bowl needed a good defense. Brady hasn't won since his D played well, Manning the same, Rodgers, Brees...

 

And still, Flacco has won more, and more consistently in his young career. Rodgers has more experience, and in 3 of the years has had a better team, especially on offense, but the Ravens and Joe have gotten it done.

 

I'll ask this again, were the Ravens the best team in the NFL last year?

[5aiah]

Those stats made me laugh. We held Luck, Manning and Brady under 20 pts. Defense isn't special teams btw.

Flacco did a great job and we couldn't of done it without the leap he made in playoff. Just can't let you knock a defense that was playing much better than how your stats say it. That blackout took momentum away from offense and defense. Before that, they couldn't move on us

Yeah man. I love Flacco, but no way I'm going to let these guys get away with knocking what that defense did, with what we had. Ellerbe,Lewis,Pollard,Cary, and even Reed are guys you can say were a liability(coverage wise) at times on the field this year. To do what we did to those elite QBs(things we didn't even do as the 2000 Ravens) was nothing short of spectacular. 

[flynismo]

When it counted,what,one year?

 

Try the last three years

[5aiah]

He's won more playoff games in his first 5 years than anyone in history. Hes won more than Rodgers period. Hes won more on the road than anyone in history period.

 

And Rodgers never would have got his ring if his defense didn't bail him out in the NFC championship against the Bears, where he completed 55%, had a 56 passer rating, threw for 200 yds, 0 TDs and 2 INTs.

 

And before you say it, yes I know Joe has put up clunkers in the playoffs where the D bailed him out, but not on his Super Bowl run... and further that's the truth with any QB who wins a lot. The point is every QB whos won a super bowl needed a good defense. Brady hasn't won since his D played well, Manning the same, Rodgers, Brees...

 

And still, Flacco has won more, and more consistently in his young career. Rodgers has more experience, and in 3 of the years has had a better team, especially on offense, but the Ravens and Joe have gotten it done.

 

I'll ask this again, were the Ravens the best team in the NFL last year?

You just made my point. Arod didn't have a good defense behind him,but since he didn't win that makes Flacco better than him.

Also you didn't answer the question. Don't run from mine but I will answer yours.

Talent wise were the Ravens the best team in the NFL, not even close. We beat more talented teams on our way to the SuperBowl. But my defintion of the best in the league is the Superbowl winner,I don't know what yours is. If it was the same as mine you wouldn't have asked that question.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

You just made my point. Arod didn't have a good defense behind him,but since he didn't win that makes Flacco better than him.

Also you didn't answer the question. Don't run from mine but I will answer yours.

Talent wise were the Ravens the best team in the NFL, not even close. We beat more talented teams on our way to the SuperBowl. But my defintion of the best in the league is the Superbowl winner,I don't know what yours is. If it was the same as mine you wouldn't have asked that question.

 

 

No, mines the SuperBowl winner as well. JW why the best team isn't necessarily the one that plays most consistently the best, has the best record, or has the best combined parts - it's the one that when it matters most gets it done and beats everyone else in their way.

 

YET, when judging the best QB's it is the one that plays most consistently the best, putting up the best numbers, with the best combined tools - not the one who gets it done when it matters most, outplaying all the other best QB's and defenses on his way.

[flynismo]

Well "When it counted", Flacco has been better than Rodgers. So by that standard you should think Flacco is better. Most people would argue that Rodgers is better because his passer rating has been much higher, but I guess since that's all regular season mumbo jumbo you don't buy into it.

 

"When it counted" only applies to the defense, and only if it supports an argument that diminishes how good Flacco is. Get with the program, man. :th_snapoutofit:

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Yeah man. I love Flacco, but no way I'm going to let these guys get away with knocking what that defense did, with what we had. Ellerbe,Lewis,Pollard,Cary, and even Reed are guys you can say were a liability(coverage wise) at times on the field this year. To do what we did to those elite QBs(things we didn't even do as the 2000 Ravens) was nothing short of spectacular. 

 

 

But one could also make the argument that bc Flacco and the offense were so efficient it put such pressure on the opposing offenses to put up points they become one dimensional. That just gets into the chicken or the egg argument and its pointless.

 

I agree we don't win the Super Bowl without a combined effort. If joe didn't play lights out we don't win, if the defense didn't step up we don't win either. I don't think anyone has argued that.

 

I think the only argument was that you were saying the defense was the #1 most important factor in us winning and diminishing Flacco's performance - which other defenses have done what ours did as outstanding as it was. Only 1 other QB in history has done what Flacco just did.

[5aiah]

No, mines the SuperBowl winner as well. JW why the best team isn't necessarily the one that plays most consistently the best, has the best record, or has the best combined parts - it's the one that when it matters most gets it done and beats everyone else in their way.

 

YET, when judging the best QB's it is the one that plays most consistently the best, putting up the best numbers, with the best combined tools - not the one who gets it done when it matters most, outplaying all the other best QB's and defenses on his way.

Because the Superbowl determines the best team. That is set in concrete, the point of the game. Its a one year thing. Best QB is something different altogether because its more about an individual and more based on talent and overall production instead of just one year.  

[flynismo]

Running game was terrible. Have you factored the lack of run game into the reason why the defense slumped in 2nd half?

I have no idea why one has to be what carried the other. Flacco and the defense were awesome, you can have both.

 

Well, I think that played a part in it, if we ran the ball better, that may have helped our defense, but that really isn't the main point. The point is that our defense got destroyed the second half, and nearly cost us a super bowl. I cant sit here and say with a straight face that we should credit the defense for our victory.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

and, ill go back to what ive said several times.

 

I accept your argument that Rodgers is the best QB. It's been made by everyone and their mother and regurgitated a million times. Its a valid argument with valid evidence supporting it. But it's also possible to disagree with it and say Brady's better, or Manning. And im sure you wouldn't be so up in arms about those names.

 

I'm simply stating that I think there is a valid argument for Flacco. It's been presented. You disagree which is fine - but you cant definitively say its a fact hes not #1 without changing the criteria for which I'm and others are evaluating QB's.

[flynismo]

 

And Rodgers never would have got his ring if his defense didn't bail him out in the NFC championship against the Bears, where he completed 55%, had a 56 passer rating, threw for 200 yds, 0 TDs and 2 INTs.

 

Not everyone can be as clutch as Flacco. Flacco has the intangibles that sets him apart from the average Joe.

[5aiah]

I think the only argument was that you were saying the defense was the #1 most important factor in us winning and diminishing Flacco's performance - which other defenses have done what ours did as outstanding as it was. Only 1 other QB in history has done what Flacco just did.

Ah see im pretty sure thats a strawman because that's not what I was saying. Never said it was the most important, just that you undervalue what they did. That's when you guys came up with a bunch a crappy stats that didn't show the whole picture. I'm not diminishing Flacco performance, its just that I know what he actually did, where I think you are exaggerating his performance and being a bit of a homer overall in regards to Flacco. It was a balanced effort, not some one man supershow. It doesn't make him the best QB in the league, just pretty close. Only one QB in history has done what Flacco just did, but Flacco still hasn't done what many other QBs did. I bet he will this season though. Not bashing Flacco at all, I just know homerism when I see it. I think Flacco's best performances are ahead of him. 

[5aiah]

and, ill go back to what ive said several times.

 

I accept your argument that Rodgers is the best QB. It's been made by everyone and their mother and regurgitated a million times. Its a valid argument with valid evidence supporting it. But it's also possible to disagree with it and say Brady's better, or Manning. And im sure you wouldn't be so up in arms about those names.

I would be. They both are past their primes and neither can do what Arod can.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Because the Superbowl determines the best team. That is set in concrete, the point of the game. Its a one year thing. Best QB is something different altogether because its more about an individual and more based on talent and overall production instead of just one year.  

 

No, the Super Bowl determines the Super Bowl winner.

 

And again, when defining best QB youre just establishing YOUR CRITERIA.

 

And IF that is your criteria then your #1 should be Peyton or Brady bc they've done it longer, more consistently that Rodgers. but the problem is youre factoring in current and projected performance and since Peyton and Brady are nearing the end of their careers youre dropping them on your list. Which is fine, that's your personal criteria.

 

My criteria places heavy emphasis on RIGHT NOW, what have you just done, who were you most recently and in the biggest moments, and where do I see you going from here.

 

Joe played the best most recently in the biggest games and all signs point to that continuing or improving, and theres a very strong argument to support that the only reason he hasn't played to the level of the other guys up until recently was Cam Cameron. Case and point, Drew Brees not being Drew Brees until he left Cam. Flacco was a better QB under Cam than Drew Brees was so my logical analysis tells me that without him Flaccos potential is much higher, and in the only opportunity hes had to show what he could do he played at an ALL-TIME elite level.

 

So what I have to go one tells me hes either already better than Brees or will be very shortly, which puts him right there with Rodgers, Brady, and Manning.... so now we're splitting hairs and one defining factor for me then becomes clutch performance. Winning when it matters. And that's something that u have or don't, and Joe does. moreso than anyone else ever has at this position in this young of a career.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Ah see im pretty sure thats a strawman because that's not what I was saying. Never said it was the most important, just that you undervalue what they did. That's when you guys came up with a bunch a crappy stats that didn't show the whole picture. I'm not diminishing Flacco performance, its just that I know what he actually did, where I think you are exaggerating his performance and being a bit of a homer overall in regards to Flacco. It was a balanced effort, not some one man supershow. It doesn't make him the best QB in the league, just pretty close. Only one QB in history has done what Flacco just did, but Flacco still hasn't done what many other QBs did. I bet he will this season though. Not bashing Flacco at all, I just know homerism when I see it. I think Flacco's best performances are ahead of him. 

 

 

Strawman and red herrings? What, did you just your philosophical argument class and now want to practice in the Ravens forum?

 

 

And YES, exactly his best performances are ahead of him. Which in my criteria of QB evaluation has to hold some heavy weight otherwise theres no argument to put anyone ahead of Peyton or Brady yet.

[flynismo]

Talent wise were the Ravens the best team in the NFL, not even close.

 

This statement applies perfectly to Flacco. How so?

 

Well, first of all, I would disagree that we were significantly less talented than the other teams. We were playing with key players hurt all year, in a new scheme, etc...just looking at pure talent -- we were easily among the most talent. However, that talent didn't translate into production on the defensive side of the ball most of the year, now did it?

 

Then look at Flacco. Yeah Arod may have the best skill set in the game, but when we put it all on the line and decided to live and die on Flacco's arm, look what happened. His lesser skill set in comparson to Arod produced much greater results.

What's that saying ... big time players make big plays in big moments?

Welcome to superstardom, Flacco