Ron Jaworski's top 32 QB's 2013

[ravensdan]

Ok and the point is you can make an argument. Flacco better arm talent, better win %, more playoff wins and more recently, consistently steps up in big games, ect.

I would argue Flacco is definitively #1.

My point is there are a good 4-6 guys right at the too and I don't think any one of them does enough to clearly separate himself as the top guy. Therefore an argument could be made for any of them, as well as an argument against any of them.

What argument is there against Rodgers?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Watch the game. I'm not going to quote a bunch of numbers as I agree they are not everything. Why can't you just be satisfied he is a top 5 passer? You certainly don't have any reasonable argument he is superior to Rodgers. Personally I would go third behind Brees as well. I don't think that's really an argument either. Now Brady and manning are the old generation going out. Historically yes better than these three. Currently no.

I do watch the games. And I've watched Rodgers put up big numbers but come up short when it matters the past 2 years.

I am happy he's top 5. My point is there's a group at the top and none of them has clearly defined himself as the top guy. Arguments can be made for or against all of them.

He's got superior arm strength to Rodgers. Durability. Wins more and in big games, especially on the road. Most recently against top defenses in the playoffs Joe looked a stud and won while Rodgers lost. Joes done enough to go to 2 straight Super Bowls.

And to say you'd put Brees ahead of Flacco to, ok.... Do you recall who Brees was when he played under Cam Cameron? Not as good as Joe was. And when did people realize how good Brees was? When he left Cam.

My argument for Joe: he's done it the most recently and with less weapons than these other guys for the most part. He has consistently put bad performances behind him and gotten the job done when its counted. It's not something u can measure on a stat sheet but he just wins. And to me wins matter more than anything else bc that's what I want my QB and team to do.

You'll disagree and that's fine you won't be wrong. But neither will I. Crowning any guy #1 is silly but if u area use the most recent data. If a fighter is ranked #1 and some up and comer knocks him out guess what? He's the new #1. He may not be the "better fighter" but what does that even mean. It all depends on criteria.

There's a criteria u could argue under which Rodgers is the best. If its Super Bowls tom Brady's #1 on this list. If its winning and doing it most recently (ie who's the best right now) I can certainly argue Flacco.

[gabefergy]

Ok and the point is you can make an argument. Flacco better arm talent, better win %, more playoff wins and more recently, consistently steps up in big games, ect.

I would argue Flacco is definitively #1.

My point is there are a good 4-6 guys right at the too and I don't think any one of them does enough to clearly separate himself as the top guy. Therefore an argument could be made for any of them, as well as an argument against any of them.

I think you could make an argument for any of them as well, but until Flacco steps up his game consistently in the regular season I cant put him above a guy like Rodgers. Flacco has a couple of clunkers last year that really hurt the team. If he can put those kind of performances behind him and play at a consistent high level ( merge 2010 consistency with the high level we saw in 2012) and I think we have a top 3 if not #1 QB. 

[Ravenseconbeast]

Ok and the point is you can make an argument. Flacco better arm talent, better win %, more playoff wins and more recently, consistently steps up in big games, ect.
I would argue Flacco is definitively #1.
My point is there are a good 4-6 guys right at the too and I don't think any one of them does enough to clearly separate himself as the top guy. Therefore an argument could be made for any of them, as well as an argument against any of them.

Flacco doesnt have better arm talent. Joe might have the stronger arm though. Im also not sure if flacco 'consistently' showed up in big games.

Flacco is moving in the right direction. He might one day top the other elite qbs, but right now your argument is weak.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

What argument is there against Rodgers?

I'm not gonna knock Rodgers - he's great.

Let me ask it this way - were the ravens the best team in the NFL?

It's either:

YES bc they won the championship and played the best of any team when the games mattered most and when all was said and done they outplayed any other team you could put above them.

-or-

NO, there were better teams. The ravens just got hot at the right time but there's no way they were better than San Fran, Denver, Patriots, Atlanta ect....


It's the same argument. What side do you fall on? I tend to say yes the ravens were the best team in the NFL last year. They got it done when it mattered.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Flacco doesnt have better arm talent. Joe might have the stronger arm though. Im also not sure if flacco 'consistently' showed up in big games.
Flacco is moving in the right direction. He might one day top the other elite qbs, but right now your argument is weak.

Is saying the ravens were the best team in the NFL last year bc they won the Super Bowl a weak argument?


Also, just want to hear your answer to this - who do you think is the best team in the NFL right now?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Anyways tired of the back and forth about it. Rodgers and Brees were top group guys but when they won their Super Bowls it became acceptable to argue them as the #1 guy even though it wasn't until after their bowl wins that they displayed consistent dominance.

Joe wins now and all signs point to similar progression yet it's blasphemy to put his name ahead of 3-4 guys. The same argument can be made for Flacco now that was made for those guys then - it just doesn't fly bc it's Flacco.

I don't honestly think Joe is the #1 best QB in the league hands down. But if I need one guy to get me a playoff win I'm taking joe over Rodgers and Brees. If I'm starting my franchise today I'm taking joe over Brees and probably even Rodgers just bc I get a few more years.

[flynismo]

Rodgers is far more accurate, he has better pocket awareness, and has the ability to scramble and make plays that Flacco probably couldnt do.

He is honestly the only QB I would take over Flacco in a vacuum. I think Flacco has a better arm and can make some throws that Rodgers can't, but overall Rodgers is the better talent IMO.

Exactly how I feel about it. If we are comparing just pure skill sets, Rodgers is in a class of his own. He may very well go down as the best QB to ever play. And the guy isn't even 30 yet...his best football might still be ahead of him.
But other than him, there is no other QB I would want to build a team around than Flacco. Flacco has it all...talent, experience, accomplished, been there done that against the best of the best, and he is still not at his peak!

[Tank 92]

Want to know how good Dilfer was at limiting turnovers?

 

From the time he entered the lineup to the end of the season, Dilfer led the entire NFL in turnovers.

 

Some game manager.

 

 

Yeah.  There was good reason not to resign him.  He pretty much sucked in the SB.

[flynismo]

I do watch the games. And I've watched Rodgers put up big numbers but come up short when it matters the past 2 years.

I am happy he's top 5. My point is there's a group at the top and none of them has clearly defined himself as the top guy. Arguments can be made for or against all of them.

He's got superior arm strength to Rodgers. Durability. Wins more and in big games, especially on the road. Most recently against top defenses in the playoffs Joe looked a stud and won while Rodgers lost. Joes done enough to go to 2 straight Super Bowls.

And to say you'd put Brees ahead of Flacco to, ok.... Do you recall who Brees was when he played under Cam Cameron? Not as good as Joe was. And when did people realize how good Brees was? When he left Cam.

My argument for Joe: he's done it the most recently and with less weapons than these other guys for the most part. He has consistently put bad performances behind him and gotten the job done when its counted. It's not something u can measure on a stat sheet but he just wins. And to me wins matter more than anything else bc that's what I want my QB and team to do.

You'll disagree and that's fine you won't be wrong. But neither will I. Crowning any guy #1 is silly but if u area use the most recent data. If a fighter is ranked #1 and some up and comer knocks him out guess what? He's the new #1. He may not be the "better fighter" but what does that even mean. It all depends on criteria.

There's a criteria u could argue under which Rodgers is the best. If its Super Bowls tom Brady's #1 on this list. If its winning and doing it most recently (ie who's the best right now) I can certainly argue Flacco.

I have an opening available for vice president of FLF.
:D

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I have an opening available for vice president of FLF.
:D

Sign me up. It's an office ill proudly represent right through this time next year when everyone's begging just to be a member at large.

[gabefergy]

I have an opening available for vice president of FLF.
:D

Oh really?? Can we make this an application process because I have a nice portfolio of posts. I think Callahan deserves a mention here too. Some of thise stats he puts together...

[Tyler]

I don't know how you can put Flacco, and Game Manager in the same sentence. You don't give game managers the most lucrative(at the time) contract in nfl history. Game managers don't tie Joe Montana for Most passing touchdowns without an int in a single post season. Joe has had so many crucial game winning drives in his career, but people seem to always be blinded by the fact that this team is known for having a power run game, and an elite defense. Dilfer played with possibly the greatest defense of all time, and handed the ball off to one of the best runningbacks in his prime. The ravens defense was barely serviceable at some points of the season. Please, the ONLY similarity between Dilfer and Joe is that they both happened to wear a ravens Jersey.

[flynismo]

I don't know how you can put Flacco, and Game Manager in the same sentence. You don't give game managers the most lucrative(at the time) contract in nfl history. Game managers don't tie Joe Montana for Most passing touchdowns without an int in a single post season. Joe has had so many crucial game winning drives in his career, but people seem to always be blinded by the fact that this team is known for having a power run game, and an elite defense. Dilfer played with possibly the greatest defense of all time, and handed the ball off to one of the best runningbacks in his prime. The ravens defense was barely serviceable at some points of the season. Please, the ONLY similarity between Dilfer and Joe is that they both happened to wear a ravens Jersey.

And they both threw passes deep. lol....
one of them didnt do it very well, but hey since he did in fact attempt to throw it deep, that means he is similar to Joe. Right? Right??

[flynismo]

Oh really?? Can we make this an application process because I have a nice portfolio of posts. I think Callahan deserves a mention here too. Some of thise stats he puts together...

 

Well, I must say, the difference so far is that Bold has argued that it is not unreasonable to make a case for Flacco to be #1. You have gone on record and declared Flacco to be #2. :throwcomp:

 

Due to your previous stellar record of quality posts, we can overlook this transgression during the application process, but please do not bring up A-rod again in this thread, lol...

[flynismo]

Sign me up. It's an office ill proudly represent right through this time next year when everyone's begging just to be a member at large.

 

Oh no worries, one of the VP's duties includes the application screening process. We have eyes, everywhere. A worthy member of the FLF realizes that Dilfer can barely pass gas, much less pass a football 40 yards downfield in the bucket, and is abhorred by this Flacco - Dilfer scandal going on in this very thread. The VP's job will be to identify those goofballs, and promptly throw them underneath the wheels of the bandwagon when they try to board.

[gabefergy]

Well, I must say, the difference so far is that Bold has argued that it is not unreasonable to make a case for Flacco to be #1. You have gone on record and declared Flacco to be #2. :throwcomp:

 

Due to your previous stellar record of quality posts, we can overlook this transgression during the application process, but please do not bring up A-rod again in this thread, lol...

True, I kind of shot myself in the foot there lol. 

[Ravensfan23]

I think you could make an argument for any of them as well, but until Flacco steps up his game consistently in the regular season I cant put him above a guy like Rodgers. Flacco has a couple of clunkers last year that really hurt the team. If he can put those kind of performances behind him and play at a consistent high level ( merge 2010 consistency with the high level we saw in 2012) and I think we have a top 3 if not #1 QB. 

 

It's funny you mention 2010 and 2012 because that's exactly what I think we'll see from Flacco. I feel we finally have the combination of possession/run after catch guys mixed with great down field talent and the right OC to creatively use it. As it stands right now, I too only have Rodger ahead of Flacco but I think by seasons end, Flacco will over take him honestly.

 

Exactly how I feel about it. If we are comparing just pure skill sets, Rodgers is in a class of his own. He may very well go down as the best QB to ever play. And the guy isn't even 30 yet...his best football might still be ahead of him.
But other than him, there is no other QB I would want to build a team around than Flacco. Flacco has it all...talent, experience, accomplished, been there done that against the best of the best, and he is still not at his peak!

 

Couldn't agree more.

[GrimCoconut]

Here's how I feel about Joe in a nutshell:

 

I think he's already the 2nd best QB  in this game, but I can't give him the title without him proving the very last thing and that's making a WR. That's really all he is missing in my eyes. I'm not ignoring the mistakes he makes, the errors he has, the way he can be pressured and look lost. I'm not ignoring the bad games or the poor stats. These are all very valid concerns. I think Joe's been deified a bit around here, and also demonized by the media. In reality, he's in the average middle--the average Joe.

 

But nothing about Flacco is actually average. He has elite durability (I'm almost scared to say this). That's very, very, very underrated about his game. The guy is able to take hits. I find it funny that people don't give enough credence to this. If the QB position is most important, is durability and consistency not important? I realize he has bad games, but at least he has these games and isn't on the sideline hurt. He's also got a canon of an arm and he's pretty accurate as well, though he does misjudge the faster options like JJ & Smith. 

 

He's got very, very good accuracy. I actually think a lot of the drops our WR have are also due to how hard Flacco throws that ball. I remember reading recently that he can break your finger if you're not careful. I believe it. I think it's a reason why some guys can catch his balls and some have a hard time. I feel this also explains Doss' uncharacteristic drops (to an extent) as well as Dickson's and even Boldin's few shocking drops. But this is also an advantage, because a lot of times this also makes it hard for the defender to reel in the INT. 

 

He's the quiet leader. It's ugly in this fiery sport. People want blood, guts, and Ray Lewis. They get a guy who grows a Fu. They get a guy who finds it funny to learn to skateboard before a huge game. They get a guy who doesn't look mad at others but reflects to himself or seemingly  moves on. It's funny, because they often applaud the guys who say they forget the bad plays and move on. Yet, if Joe does it he's chastised. 

Joe won't win--at least not in the media's eyes. He won't win until he posts crazy regular season stats and he's a Fantasy Football machine. That's an elite QB now. That's what it takes. 

[beanfigger]

Here's how I feel about Joe in a nutshell:

 

I think he's already the 2nd best QB  in this game, but I can't give him the title without him proving the very last thing and that's making a WR. That's really all he is missing in my eyes. I'm not ignoring the mistakes he makes, the errors he has, the way he can be pressured and look lost. I'm not ignoring the bad games or the poor stats. These are all very valid concerns. I think Joe's been deified a bit around here, and also demonized by the media. In reality, he's in the average middle--the average Joe.

 

But nothing about Flacco is actually average. He has elite durability (I'm almost scared to say this). That's very, very, very underrated about his game. The guy is able to take hits. I find it funny that people don't give enough credence to this. If the QB position is most important, is durability and consistency not important? I realize he has bad games, but at least he has these games and isn't on the sideline hurt. He's also got a canon of an arm and he's pretty accurate as well, though he does misjudge the faster options like JJ & Smith. 

 

He's got very, very good accuracy. I actually think a lot of the drops our WR have are also due to how hard Flacco throws that ball. I remember reading recently that he can break your finger if you're not careful. I believe it. I think it's a reason why some guys can catch his balls and some have a hard time. I feel this also explains Doss' uncharacteristic drops (to an extent) as well as Dickson's and even Boldin's few shocking drops. But this is also an advantage, because a lot of times this also makes it hard for the defender to reel in the INT. 

 

He's the quiet leader. It's ugly in this fiery sport. People want blood, guts, and Ray Lewis. They get a guy who grows a Fu. They get a guy who finds it funny to learn to skateboard before a huge game. They get a guy who doesn't look mad at others but reflects to himself or seemingly  moves on. It's funny, because they often applaud the guys who say they forget the bad plays and move on. Yet, if Joe does it he's chastised. 

Joe won't win--at least not in the media's eyes. He won't win until he posts crazy regular season stats and he's a Fantasy Football machine. That's an elite QB now. That's what it takes. 

 

Thanks for this.  I agree all the way.  I think his stats will go up this year, but maybe not to the highest level we see from some of the crazy pass-happy teams in the league.

 

As far as making a WR, would you count Torrey if he takes a leap to Pro Bowl status?  It isn't like he was lights out from the moment he stepped on the field for us.  I could also see an argument be made that Flacco has already "made" a stud receiver out of Pitta.  I know TE is different from WR, but I'm impressed with how far this tandem has grown together in just a short span.

[beanfigger]

1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Drew Brees
3. Tom Brady
4. Peyton Manning
5. Joe Flacco
6. Big Ben
7. Eli Manning
8. Matt Ryan

My top 8. I'll explain if anyone cares

That's my top 8

 

I've stated the same top 8 several times, though I just make it tiers.  Tier 1 - Brady, Brees, PManning, Rodgers.  Tier 2 - Flacco, EManning, Roethlisberger, Ryan.  Those are alphabetical within the tiers.  It would be hard to find a consensus on the exact rankings of these tiers, but I feel comfortable making these the top two NFL QB Tiers.  After that it gets a little cloudy because I don't know where to mix the young guys in with the veterans who have lasted years as starters.

[ravensdan]

What I really want to see is the Rodgers v flacco Super Bowl this year. I believe it is the most likely match up as a matter of fact due to these 2 being the most complete teams. Of course that is in July...

[CARavensFan]

What I really want to see is the Rodgers v flacco Super Bowl this year. I believe it is the most likely match up as a matter of fact due to these 2 being the most complete teams. Of course that is in July...

I would love to see that matchup. In fact out game against the Packers is one of the games I'm most looking forward too.

[5aiah]

I don't know how you can put Flacco, and Game Manager in the same sentence. You don't give game managers the most lucrative(at the time) contract in nfl history. Game managers don't tie Joe Montana for Most passing touchdowns without an int in a single post season. Joe has had so many crucial game winning drives in his career, but people seem to always be blinded by the fact that this team is known for having a power run game, and an elite defense. Dilfer played with possibly the greatest defense of all time, and handed the ball off to one of the best runningbacks in his prime. The ravens defense was barely serviceable at some points of the season. Please, the ONLY similarity between Dilfer and Joe is that they both happened to wear a ravens Jersey.

 

And they both threw passes deep. lol....
one of them didnt do it very well, but hey since he did in fact attempt to throw it deep, that means he is similar to Joe. Right? Right??

Again missing my point completely and truly ignoring what the Defense did and how our run game affects opposing defenses. The defense is the unsung hero here. Flacco gets all the glory though with you guys. Both of you are taking the Dilfer thing overboard(I don't think you guys even remember that season like I do) as well as making Flacco out to be some killer field general. But alas it is offseason and people are hopeful and ready for the new season. I hope Joe is the best QB in the NFL this year and a true field general to boot. Time will tell. But honestly I think he is what I know him to be and love him for. A strong arm QB who excels in a run based play action offense and is at his best using his arm stength to make gutsy throws others can't. 

[5aiah]

Why?

Give me the definitive argument as to why, right now, Rodgers is without a doubt the better QB.

Because he is better at everything except arm strength and Flacco is only marginally better in that area. Packers defense was trash too. You guys don't take into account how good our defense was in the playoffs. Those two special teams TDs in denver and the fiasco after the blackout have clouded your mind.

[Speed Kills]

If you truely believe Flacco is on the same level as Aaron Rodgers I have a beach house in Idaho I would love to sell you. Come on guys, we are all fans, but don't be such homers that you are blinded from being objective. Flacco is an elite top 10 QB and wins when it matters. Don't try to pick that apart and figure out EXACTLY where that ranks him in the top 10 just take it at face value and move on. He is not I repeat He IS NOT #1. At least not yet.

[hawkprey]

Because he is better at everything except arm strength and Flacco is only marginally better in that area. Packers defense was trash too. You guys don't take into account how good our defense was in the playoffs. Those two special teams TDs in denver and the fiasco after the blackout have clouded your mind.

Would it surprise you to know that during the regular season, the Packers' defense gave up fewer points and yards per game than ours did? And that they had more turnovers and sacks than ours? You're only looking at the 49ers game and assuming that's how the entire year was for them.

 

Yes, our defense played better in the playoffs, but so did our quarterback. Both are reasons why Flacco beat the 3 (other) best teams in his Super Bowl run and Rodgers only beat Joe Webb's Vikings.

[5aiah]

Would it surprise you to know that during the regular season, the Packers' defense gave up fewer points and yards per game than ours did? And that they had more turnovers and sacks than ours? You're only looking at the 49ers game and assuming that's how the entire year was for them.

 

Yes, our defense played better in the playoffs, but so did our quarterback. Both are reasons why Flacco beat the 3 (other) best teams in his Super Bowl run and Rodgers only beat Joe Webb's Vikings.

I'm looking at when it counted bro. Also don't even dare talk about season stats when everyone knows what happened once playoffs hit for the Ravens. Really gonna use stats, and season stats no less, knowing how big a difference it was for us......

 

Also you are missing the point which is that Arod is better. Refute or agree?

[ratedr]

Flacco is not on Rodgers level. I can't believe this ifs even a debate.

[QbringFlaccotoAZ]

Because he is better at everything except arm strength and Flacco is only marginally better in that area. Packers defense was trash too. You guys don't take into account how good our defense was in the playoffs. Those two special teams TDs in denver and the fiasco after the blackout have clouded your mind.

Did I watch the same playoff run, or was I in a different dimension.  Check this article:  http://espn.go.com/espn/playbook/story/_/id/8914831/baltimore-old-exhausted-defense-saves-best-last

 

The defense was actually worst in the post-season statistically.  The Ravens won with arguably the worst defense in post season history.  They gave up 428 yards per game in the playoffs.  Sure give the defense credit for making some key stops, but I think you are overrating the defensive peformance and underrating the offensive performance.