Ron Jaworski's top 32 QB's 2013

[5aiah]

I'm not bashing him at all, just pointing out that Flacco is the ultimate system QB. We've built our offense around his strengths to the point where he has no choice but to succeed.

Brave words my friend. I second that notion because I always thought he was the perfect "Ravens Quarterback". He has a cannon and is best pushing the ball down the field while benefiting from a running game that holds most of the attention while committing few mistakes and letting the defense help him win the game. He is a much better version of our last "Ravens QB" Trent Dilfer. All the other QBs we have had haven't been that style these guys were. We went through a dry spell because we let our first one walk and went looking for a traditional QB. It cost us titles for sure. To me Dilfer was always underrated by Ravens fans for what he did and now it seems like Flacco is becoming overrated by us. Lets find middle ground lol.

[flynismo]

W/ all of that being said I am a sole believer that Flacco is a top 10 QB. But to say that he is #1 a bit premature.

 

It depends on the criteria. If we're doing a career achievements list, then obviously Flacco is well behind guys like Brady and Manning. If we're going by recent history, meaning the last couple years, then why not Flacco? We know what he just did, and the year before he was a dropped pass away from back to back SB appearances.

The only knock against Flacco is that his stats aren't as gaudy as some of the other guys. But like Ray used to say, stats are for losers. It's what guys like Manning and Brady looked at to console their egos after Flacco outgunned them and bounced them out of the playoffs. And that's the knock on those guys. Manning is a postseason choke artist, and Brady doesn't perform on the level Flacco has the past three years in the postseason. So it's a question of what you want. You want to win fantasy football trophies? Brees, Rodgers and Manning are your guys. Want to win football games, especially in the postseason? Flacco has won more games than anyone over the past five years, including the FF queens mentioned above.

 

And if last year was any indication, people wont even be able to use regular season stats against Flacco anymore, considering how ungodly he played after we got rid of the albatross known as Cam Cameron.

[flynismo]

Lol.

Fly's top 5 QBs(no bias)

1. Flacco
2. Flacco
3. Flacco
4. Flacco
5. Flacco

 

 

Of course I'm biased...I hope we all are. I'm not one of those people who confuse incessant negativity and false modesty as being realistic

[flynismo]

I'm not bashing him at all, just pointing out that Flacco is the ultimate system QB. We've built our offense around his strengths to the point where he has no choice but to succeed.

 

You can't be serious? Every single team out there builds their offense around their QB. Why does Joe get label a "system qb" when the logical thing to do is build your team around him? Does that mean Ryan is a system qb, or Brady or Manning, since their teams go to any length possible to get the most and best weapons possible for their star QB?

It's not as if Flacco is only successful because of his team. He has put this squad on his back many times. And we've been rewarded with three AFCCG and five straight playoff appearances because of it. I can only imagine how much more successful he'd be if his teammates hadn't let him down so many times...the very guys that you said make Flacco a system QB are the guys who dropped game winning TD passes (Boldin, Clayton, Evans) and quite a few other critical mistakes (TJ on fourth down, Dickson against PIT in the playoffs). Not only that, but these are the same guys who every week, we listen to the announcers ramble in astonishment at our WRs complete lack of ability to gain seperation...and then we listen to people talk about how Flacco is a lesser QB because of his stats.

Ryan and Brees....those two guys get so much "free" production because of their systems. Ryan has an insane trio of targets to play catch with, and Brees has an unreal OL and a brilliant OC, and as a result he has men wide open all day long, and has all day to throw to them. So their stats are pretty. I'm cool with that. Especially since now Flacco has a great OC of his own, and we saw what a difference it made in the offense as a whole. Amazing how much Flacco's stats went through the roof once we stopped with the crap that Cam pulled..

[5aiah]

Of course I'm biased...I hope we all are. I'm not one of those people who confuse incessant negativity and false modesty as being realistic

Meh being a huge fan and being unfairly biased don't have to go together. I been a fan since Ravens existed but im no homer. I know Flacco isn't the outright best QB in the league but like I have said again and again, he doesn't have to be. He is exactly what the Ravens need and so far both of our SB winning QBs have huge similarities only backing up my point even more. You can say Brees is a system QB too, so stop acting like its a dirty phrase or insult. But Arod is the special breed that can succeed in any system. He has a cannon yet is the best QB in the league in a West Coast offense. I'm not using the regular stats to back up my argument but just watching the difference between the two guys is enough. Also for all your talk about those guys using stats to make themselves feel better, remember they have equal or more rings than Flacco,all of them. I don't want this to turn into a homer vs realistic fan thread so i will probably bow out. We are all Ravens fans lets stick together and enjoy the season regardless of how realistic(or not) we are as fans. 

 

Edit: Just saw your signature. Never mind, now it all makes sense.

[flynismo]

Meh being a huge fan and being unfairly biased don't have to go together. I been a fan since Ravens existed but im no homer. I know Flacco isn't the outright best QB in the league but like I have said again and again, he doesn't have to be. He is exactly what the Ravens need and so far both of our SB winning QBs have huge similarities only backing up my point even more. You can say Brees is a system QB too, so stop acting like its a dirty phrase or insult. But Arod is the special breed that can succeed in any system. He has a cannon yet is the best QB in the league in a West Coast offense. I'm not using the regular stats to back up my argument but just watching the difference between the two guys is enough. Also for all your talk about those guys using stats to make themselves feel better, remember they have equal or more rings than Flacco,all of them. I don't want this to turn into a homer vs realistic fan thread so i will probably bow out. We are all Ravens fans lets stick together and enjoy the season regardless of how realistic(or not) we are as fans. 

 

Edit: Just saw your signature. Never mind, now it all makes sense.

 

 

Being a "system QB" IS an insult, just like being called a "game manager", at least in common use of the words. The implication is that you cant stand on your own two feet, and are just there not to screw things up.

 

And what huge simalarities do Flacco and Dilfer share in common? Other than playing QB for us, I see nothing in common between the two...really not sure what you mean by that or how it backs up what you were saying.

 

I'm not saying Flacco is or isn't the best QB in the league. The question is, how do you make that distinction? Stats? That's naive. Wins? Too many factors come into play there. Saying that one guy can succeed in any system and the other can't? Pure conjecture.

All we really can do is take the whole package...stats, wins, skill set, and try to weigh it all out. For example, put Flacco in NO, and I doubt there'd be much, if any, drop off in production from Brees' stats. Put Brees in BAL with Cam Cameron (remember last time Brees was handcuffed by that clown? He wasn't exactly what he is now) with constant pressure in his face and WR who struggle to get open, and see how many passing records he breaks then. My point is, everything is subjective when comparing players from different teams.

[flynismo]

Brave words my friend. I second that notion because I always thought he was the perfect "Ravens Quarterback". He has a cannon and is best pushing the ball down the field while benefiting from a running game that holds most of the attention while committing few mistakes and letting the defense help him win the game. He is a much better version of our last "Ravens QB" Trent Dilfer. All the other QBs we have had haven't been that style these guys were. We went through a dry spell because we let our first one walk and went looking for a traditional QB. It cost us titles for sure. To me Dilfer was always underrated by Ravens fans for what he did and now it seems like Flacco is becoming overrated by us. Lets find middle ground lol.

 

I guess this is the answer to my question of what Flacco and Dilfer have in common? Dear lord....did you even see Dilfer play? Do you remember us going a month without scoring an offensive TD? You really think Dilfer is some sort of unsung hero? Because our FO certainly did not think highly enough of him to bring him back....yet we signed Flacco to the richest contract in history.

Only in the broadest sense does Flacco rely on the run game and defense to do his dirty work for him. Dilfer....was the reason the expression "riding on my coattails" was invented. In other words, Flacco has won us a ton of games. Dilfer did just enough to not lose us many games. Huge difference.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Are you serious? What makes Flacco a better fit for Ravens and better than these other guys on the list arguably, is that he owns a cannon. But Arod does too and ios much more accurate,better under pressure, and handles a much bigger workload as a passer. He is also faster and more agile and can read defenses better than Flacco. In my honest opinion Flacco's ceiling is what Arod can do now as a passer, but even then he still won't be as mobile. Arod is the greatest of his generation talent wise, a true all around threat, lets not get carried away here. He is only a year older than Flacco by the way. Only thing going in Flacco favor(in terms of ever being better) is the punishment Arod takes ends his career or prime early, but that will likely be fixed.

If Rodgers is better under pressure why hasn't he been better in the playoffs?

Also, during last post season when playing against the same or similar quality defenses Rodgers looked human and couldn't get it done while Flacco became superman and shred EVERY defense he faced.

And oh, btw, Flacco did it with less weapons. I don't think there's a person in the world last year who would say Flacco had better weapons.

So please tell me then, if Rodgers is superior in every aspect, why with better weapons could he not get it done, while Flacco with worse weapons could?

[5aiah]

I guess this is the answer to my question of what Flacco and Dilfer have in common? Dear lord....did you even see Dilfer play? Do you remember us going a month without scoring an offensive TD? You really think Dilfer is some sort of unsung hero? Because our FO certainly did not think highly enough of him to bring him back....yet we signed Flacco to the richest contract in history.

Only in the broadest sense does Flacco rely on the run game and defense to do his dirty work for him. Dilfer....was the reason the expression "riding on my coattails" was invented. In other words, Flacco has won us a ton of games. Dilfer did just enough to not lose us many games. Huge difference.

The ability and propensity to throw the deep ball while relying on play action to open things up while limiting turnovers and allowing the defense to lock things down and make big plays to win the game. I'm not sure YOU saw Dilfer play but I was a fan back then. Flacco is 10x better but he is very similar im not sure how you can't see that. Also you aren't giving the defense enough credit in regards to the playoff run because their return to elite level is what really won us the superbowl. Who scared the broncos into running out the clock when we all know they coulda took a shot a driving down the field for a FG? Who held the pats to 13 points? Who stopped the niners in the redzone? I'm offended that you give Flacco all the credit when the resurgence of the defense is what ultimately brought home our second championship, as the defense did the first time. Flacco wasn't even a undisputed SB MVP. Also Dilfer didn't have the number of weapons Flacco had and came in the middle of turmoil. This is exactly what I mean by underrating one and overrating the other.

 

 

If Rodgers is better under pressure why hasn't he been better in the playoffs?

Also, during last post season when playing against the same or similar quality defenses Rodgers looked human and couldn't get it done while Flacco became superman and shred EVERY defense he faced.

And oh, btw, Flacco did it with less weapons. I don't think there's a person in the world last year who would say Flacco had better weapons.

So please tell me then, if Rodgers is superior in every aspect, why with better weapons could he not get it done, while Flacco with worse weapons could?

Flacco was supported by a much better defense and he didn't SHRED every defense he faced. I don't use that term lightly so maybe we differ there. Also by pressure im referring to pressure on the field when throwing. Arod has consistently shown he can do it under pressure while Joe just started in the playoffs.

 

 

Being a "system QB" IS an insult, just like being called a "game manager", at least in common use of the words. The implication is that you cant stand on your own two feet, and are just there not to screw things up.

 

And what huge simalarities do Flacco and Dilfer share in common? Other than playing QB for us, I see nothing in common between the two...really not sure what you mean by that or how it backs up what you were saying.

 

I'm not saying Flacco is or isn't the best QB in the league. The question is, how do you make that distinction? Stats? That's naive. Wins? Too many factors come into play there. Saying that one guy can succeed in any system and the other can't? Pure conjecture.

All we really can do is take the whole package...stats, wins, skill set, and try to weigh it all out. For example, put Flacco in NO, and I doubt there'd be much, if any, drop off in production from Brees' stats. Put Brees in BAL with Cam Cameron (remember last time Brees was handcuffed by that clown? He wasn't exactly what he is now) with constant pressure in his face and WR who struggle to get open, and see how many passing records he breaks then. My point is, everything is subjective when comparing players from different teams.

Omg please stop. Brees like most QBs just got alot better once hitting their prime. They are different QBs and you are doing nothing to dispute my claim that Brees is a system QB. Its not an insult because very few QBs can succeed regardless of system. Flacco isn't one of them. Arod is. Get over it. Game manager may be a backhanded compliment to some but the truth is many teams would love to have a good one. Alex smith is the best game manager QB out right now and he will fit what they do in KC. The big thing that tells me that you didn't watch us in 2000 is that Dilfer wasn't some short-mid range manager like Alex smith. We always took shots deep with him and he wasn't as bad as your making him seem. I remember he did most of his best work deep going to Ismail,Sharpe, and Stokely. You ask how do we make the distinction between the best QBs, I'll tell you, we watch them. It's not hard to see the difference between Arod and Flacco despite them both being strong arm guys. Arod has the full package and is hands down the best QB in the league. All the other elite you can say Flacco can beat them out completely in one area(throwing power), but with Arod you can't say that at all and we know Arod is better in alot of other areas. I can't believe this is an actual conversation. 

 

This article will do both of you some good. 

http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2013/6/19/4445140/remembering-trent-dilfer

[5aiah]

Dear lord....did you even see Dilfer play? Do you remember us going a month without scoring an offensive TD?

By the way Dilfer wasn't the QB all those games. Tony Banks was. Dilfer iirc only had one game without a TD before ending that streak. The more You know........

[rafahash]

Considering the media's love for Ryan, I really doubt that Joe is going to rank higher than #6.

[izvoodoo]

Considering the media's love for Ryan, I really doubt that Joe is going to rank higher than #6.

Jaws isn't "the media" traditionally.  If anything he's too generous to Flacco

[Ravenseconbeast]

Every flacco fans were holding onto their seat for flacco to pass #7 today. Now that jaws put ben@#7 you put him immediately @#2/1? Rofl..Settle down...joe has a long way to go before he beats brees, peyton, brady or aaron as the 'better QB'. Those guys still tops flacco by a large margin. Just appreciate the fact that someone in espn put flacco in high regards and enjoy what he has to say about joe when his numbers comes up.

[MrPlankton]

Every flacco fans were holding onto their seat for flacco to pass #7 today. Now that jaws put ben@#7 you put him immediately @#2/1? Rofl..Settle down...joe has a long way to go before he beats brees, peyton, brady or aaron as the 'better QB'. Those guys still tops flacco by a large margin. Just appreciate the fact that someone in espn put flacco in high regards and enjoy what he has to say about joe when his numbers comes up.

 

Yeah, I love Joe but he's not there yet. Top 10 at the very most right now.

[callahan09]

A lot of people talk about Flacco having the most wins out of any QB since he entered the league.  I personally think that's a fine, worthy, and (yes) amazing statistic.  But a lot of people argue, "Well, Brady wasn't in the league in 2008 due to an injury, so he's got a whole season's worth of games less to rely on propping him up in that category."

 

OK.  So let's look since 2009: The top 3 winning-est QBs in the league since 2009 are:

 

Tom Brady 52

Aaron Rodgers 51

Joe Flacco 50

 

That's pretty awesome.  And since those people like to play the hypothetical game in reference to Brady not getting the chance to play in 2008, how about we spice up the argument with a little hypothetical of our own: If Flacco's team hadn't let him down monumentally in New England in the 2011 AFC Championship Game, that would be one more win for Flacco and won less win for Brady, making it a 3-way tie at the top with 51 wins each for Brady, Rodgers, and Flacco.

[Alexir]

This list made me laugh. Schaub is higher than skippy mcdoogal?!

[ellicottraven]

I really don't care whether Ron Jaworksi ranks Flacco at #2 (where he belongs this year imo) or not. He probably won't. However, the fact is that there is no other QB I would take in the playoffs (that includes Rodgers) other than Flacco. Period.

The same time next year, it won't be a question whether Flacco is #2 anymore. There will be serious question as to why he is not the top ranked QB in the league.

Punditry is such a fickle art form, it is almost shamelessly amoebic in nature. Once Flacco puts up astonishing numbers this year and takes us back to the promised land, the same pundits will be eating their own faeces and falling over one another anointing Flacco as the greatest QB since Joe Montana! Mark my words....

[flynismo]

The ability and propensity to throw the deep ball while relying on play action to open things up while limiting turnovers and allowing the defense to lock things down and make big plays to win the game. I'm not sure YOU saw Dilfer play but I was a fan back then. Flacco is 10x better but he is very similar im not sure how you can't see that. Also you aren't giving the defense enough credit in regards to the playoff run because their return to elite level is what really won us the superbowl. Who scared the broncos into running out the clock when we all know they coulda took a shot a driving down the field for a FG? Who held the pats to 13 points? Who stopped the niners in the redzone? I'm offended that you give Flacco all the credit when the resurgence of the defense is what ultimately brought home our second championship, as the defense did the first time. Flacco wasn't even a undisputed SB MVP.

 

 

Flacco was supported by a much better defense and he didn't SHRED every defense he faced.

 

 

It's comments like these that make you look like another one of those people who dump on Flacco for the hell of it, although I know you are not like that.

 

It's absurd to credit the defense for our SB win. The game would have been a blowout if it weren't for them blowing a huge lead and giving up 17 points in what 3 or 4 minutes? Sorry, I refuse to credit them for our win when they gave up 31 points.

 

They certainly didnt "scare" Peyton Manning into running out the clock either. It was a strategic move, one that I happen to agree with, and it just happened to backfire. The way Manning torched them, it's laughable to think they had more to do with that win than Flacco's performance.

 

Now, they did play well against Indy and NE, so they played well in two of the four games. However, Flacco played well in every single one of those games. We put up 28 points on NE, so that SHOULD be enough of a cushion for the defense for us to walk away with the win.

[flynismo]

By the way Dilfer wasn't the QB all those games. Tony Banks was. Dilfer iirc only had one game without a TD before ending that streak. The more You know........

I dont remember when the streak ended and who the QB was, really dont care enough to look it up. But Dilfer, he was the definition of a game manager. And he wasn't even a good one at that. His entire career, he was a turnover machine; and being a game manager who turns the ball over is pretty useless

 

Since everyone seems so obssessed with stats, here's one for you --

 

In Dilfer's 14 year career, he had SEVEN seasons in which he threw more INT than TD.

Including these gems:

 

4 TD and 18 INT (very Flacco-like .... snicker)

1 TD 6 INT in his rookie year

12 TD and 19 INT

 

and for his career, he threw 113 TD and 129 INT.

 

So please stop with this silly comparison to Flacco. Dilfer was a game manager who sucked at managing the game. Flacco is a guy that we constantly put the game on his shoulders, and he usually gets it done.

[flynismo]

This list made me laugh. Schaub is higher than skippy mcdoogal?!

Skippy McDoogal? Who dat iz?

 

I have been dying to do this...

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om5AGyq71fo

[beasy2487]

Lol.

Fly's top 5 QBs(no bias)

1. Flacco
2. Flacco
3. Flacco
4. Flacco
5. Dylan

Fixed.

[SecretAgentMan]

Fixed.

Love me my David Chappele lol.

I'm starting a completely unrelated Flacco thread soon. Give me a while

[flynismo]

Fixed.

 

Dylan? See my post above sir

[SecretAgentMan]

Dylan? See my post above sir

He was talking about Dave Chapelle Dylan

[5aiah]

It's comments like these that make you look like another one of those people who dump on Flacco for the hell of it, although I know you are not like that.

 

It's absurd to credit the defense for our SB win. The game would have been a blowout if it weren't for them blowing a huge lead and giving up 17 points in what 3 or 4 minutes? Sorry, I refuse to credit them for our win when they gave up 31 points.

 

They certainly didnt "scare" Peyton Manning into running out the clock either. It was a strategic move, one that I happen to agree with, and it just happened to backfire. The way Manning torched them, it's laughable to think they had more to do with that win than Flacco's performance.

 

Now, they did play well against Indy and NE, so they played well in two of the four games. However, Flacco played well in every single one of those games. We put up 28 points on NE, so that SHOULD be enough of a cushion for the defense for us to walk away with the win.

They gave up alot via momentum after the "suspicious" blackout and got the job done in the redzone to save the game.

They scared Peyton "choke" Manning and his coach. It was a bad move to not attack that Raven defense if you think you can get in range. Also how did Manning torch them two of their TDs were off of special teams and he threw a pick that went back for a TD. Then in overtime they stopped the Broncos from scoring even when the offense faltered and made the game winning pick. The story that wasn't as popular as the "Flacco coming out party" was the resurgence of the defense despite two old men(who were one dimensional) at safety. Cary stepped up and played like a boss and Graham showed us why he left his last team in the first place. Not to mention at the end of the day it was Ray Lewis who brought the new found energy back to the Ravens after they fell face first into the playoffs. Most of the credit goes to him in my honest opinion because a lot of guys stepped up and played like this was their last season, or even last few weeks alive. Who else in the history of football can do that? Not many.

 

I dont remember when the streak ended and who the QB was, really dont care enough to look it up. But Dilfer, he was the definition of a game manager. And he wasn't even a good one at that. His entire career, he was a turnover machine; and being a game manager who turns the ball over is pretty useless

 

Since everyone seems so obssessed with stats, here's one for you --

 

In Dilfer's 14 year career, he had SEVEN seasons in which he threw more INT than TD.

Including these gems:

 

4 TD and 18 INT (very Flacco-like .... snicker)

1 TD 6 INT in his rookie year

12 TD and 19 INT

 

and for his career, he threw 113 TD and 129 INT.

 

So please stop with this silly comparison to Flacco. Dilfer was a game manager who sucked at managing the game. Flacco is a guy that we constantly put the game on his shoulders, and he usually gets it done.

I am talking about his one season with Baltimore as a strong arm game manager who fed off the run game and attention being paid to his talented HB  and launched it down field yet limited turnovers enough to win games. You gonna bash people for using stats against flacco and say hes a winner but then overlook the fact that Dilfer took over a 5-3 team that had not scored a TD in 4 games and went 7-1, then went to playoffs and went 3-0 and won a ring.

[hawkprey]

 

I am talking about his one season with Baltimore as a strong arm game manager who fed off the run game and attention being paid to his talented HB  and launched it down field yet limited turnovers enough to win games. You gonna bash people for using stats against flacco and say hes a winner but then overlook the fact that Dilfer took over a 5-3 team that had not scored a TD in 4 games and went 7-1, then went to playoffs and went 3-0 and won a ring.

The difference is Dilfer was cut after winning the Super Bowl whereas Flacco was given the largest contract in history. 

[flynismo]

 

I am talking about his one season with Baltimore as a strong arm game manager who fed off the run game and attention being paid to his talented HB  and launched it down field yet limited turnovers enough to win games. You gonna bash people for using stats against flacco and say hes a winner but then overlook the fact that Dilfer took over a 5-3 team that had not scored a TD in 4 games and went 7-1, then went to playoffs and went 3-0 and won a ring.

I threw stats out there because that is what so many people can relate to, and since a lot of people here are too young to have seen Dilfer.

You are the one who said to evaluate QBs by watching their play on the field, not by stats. I fully agree with that.

But how can you say with a straight face that there is ANY simialrties between Flacco and Dilfer from watching them play?

I've seen Flacco make many impossible throws. Can you say that for Dilfer? Did we ever, even one time, put the game on Dilfers shoulders, or did we put him on the field because we were required to field a QB and instead rely solely on a run game and defense to win?

 

Dilfer = terrible game manager

Flacco = the center of our offense

 

Only in very broad ways can we say that Flacco relies on the run game and defense to help win. He relies on them the same way Big Ben does, the same way Brady does, the same way every single QB does....without a run game to help take a little pressure off, and a defense to make just enough stops, you are not going to win many games. Ask Drew Brees about that.

[5aiah]

The difference is Dilfer was cut after winning the Super Bowl whereas Flacco was given the largest contract in history. 

Yeah and look what that got us. Elvis Grbac.

[flynismo]

The big thing that tells me that you didn't watch us in 2000 is that Dilfer wasn't some short-mid range manager like Alex smith. We always took shots deep with him and he wasn't as bad as your making him seem. I remember he did most of his best work deep going to Ismail,Sharpe, and Stokely. 

 

When did I ever say Dilfer didn't take shots down field?

 

And yes, Dilfer absolutely was as bad as I make him seem. The guy sucked, get over it.

[SecretAgentMan]

I thought the Dilfer vs Flacco debate was over

Lemme put it this way


We won the SB IN SPITE of Dilfer in 2000

We won the SB BECAUSE of Flacco 2013