Ron Jaworski's top 32 QB's 2013

[atljbo]

PFF is done by guys who are watching the game while they do their own stats. I fell in love with just their free stuff but I will be buying a subscription this year. I like their accuracy percentage much more than the completion percentage. Good thing about Flacco is that he never really underthrows just overthrows the deep ball where at least no one can get it.

 

Yea... I dont live and die by no one else opinion (including PFF) ... But if it goes along with what ive seen watching games multiple times.... Then ill use them as a source so ppl dont think im just giving my opinion.

[5aiah]

Yea... I dont live and die by no one else opinion (including PFF) ... But if it goes along with what ive seen watching games multiple times.... Then ill use them as a source so ppl dont think im just giving my opinion.

Right, its perfect to back up what I've seen on rewind all 22. Some times I even watch games based on some of their stats like if a star was shut down or inefficient but still managed to put up good basic stats, then I go watch myself to see what happened. I can't find that chart on the deep ball though,that really belongs in this thread, where did you get it?

Edit: Never mind I see it.

[gabefergy]

Last year ? I thought his % was 58 or 59

Also i was going by PFF research



Im not just throwing numbers out there.... But yea,, If that 1600 number is right for last year tho.. ill have to see the info but thats down right impressive.

That's accuracy % ( which is a made up stat BTW). I was talking strictly about % throwing deep, as in what percentage of all throws are deep throws. Check that out and you will see why Flaccos iverall comp % was just under 60%, almost 20% of his passes were deep throws.

[flynismo]

Sure but there is a difference when some of them were vs terrible defense sets and playcalls or schemes and others are when the defense does everything right yet you still torch them. That is a pretty big difference between good QBs and great ones. You would agree no? This is why your usage of primitive stats fails.

Perhaps. But this is why your usage of primitive logic fails:

He cannot control the quality of the defense he is facing.

 

People would have jumped down his throat if he missed that throw to Jacoby in Denver (nevermind the fact the ball traveled 56 yards in the air to reach Jacoby accurately), but nobody will give him credit for identifying the play and then throwing a bomb -- which Manning could not have made -- right on the money? Come on man

 

Furthermore, raw pass attempts are in fact , to a certain extent, an indication of what we ask of our QB. Remember your comparison of Flacco to Dilfer? Why do you think Dilfer didn't throw much? Because we had a scrub QB and great defense / run game.

[atljbo]

That's accuracy % ( which is a made up stat BTW). I was talking strictly about % throwing deep, as in what percentage of all throws are deep throws. Check that out and you will see why Flaccos iverall comp % was just under 60%, almost 20% of his passes were deep throws.

I know that.. 59. something.. wasnt talking about that... I was talking about where did you see that 1600 of his yards were deep balls... Im interested to see because not only because of Joe but because i want to see what other Qb's % are.

 

 

The reason i like PFF writing because they go by the ball traveling atleast 20 yards in the air... Not a WR/RB/TE catching a 10 yard catch but creating a 22 yard play

[Ravensfan23]

Agree to disagree then because from what I've seen(even just the past day watching the all 22) he doesn't do any of those things consistently on the level other elite QBs do.

 

By all accounts the complete opposite happens in practice. Flacco takes full control of the offense, runs it from the LOS and directs everyone. This was reported as one of the main reasons the Ravens wanted Cam to move to more no huddle and brought Caldwell in because Flacco does such a great job doing it at practice. Yet in games it's all Cam's control. There has been reports dating all the way back to 2010 about Cam not letting Joe audible or have more control.

 

Brees wasn't elite under Cam, because much like Flacco, Cam didn't play to the same strengths he showed while at Purde. The reason why Flacco was drafted in the first round is because the things he showed at Delaware are the same things that Ozzie, Eric, Harbs and Cam fell in love with when working out Flacco. As far as the contract that is a very poor attempt to make your point. imo The Ravens were already willing to make Flacco a top 5 paid QB with like 18M per year. So it's not like they didn't offer him a deal that would show how much they believed in him. It's just the nature of the business. Drew Brees went though the same thing. Flacco thought he was worth a certain price and proved it.

 

Now i'm not saying Cam and the System is all the blame for all of Flacco's struggles. Flacco does need to play better, but I'd much rather see him play to his strengths then someone elses. You are watching 2012 Flacco and labeling that as what his "natural talents" are. No that's what you see in 2012. To truly gauge his "natural talents" you have to be able to chronicle almost every Flacco throw.

 

Go back and watch the Vikings game in 09'. When the Ravens fell behind by like 17 points, Cam opened up the offense and Flacco was a Stud. Why? because he was allowed to do what he naturally does well. The 2nd half of the Falcons game in 2010. Watch the1st half of the Texans game in 2010. Watch the Cardinals game from 2011 when the Ravens were down 24-6 at half and the Ravens came out in shotgun and no huddle for most of the 2nd half. Hell watch the 92 yard game winning Steelers drive. Much like Brees you'll see the same things that showed up when watching him in college because those are his natural talents.

 

Everyone talks about consistency with Flacco, but what about your OC being consistent? Let the man do what he consistently does well and step back.

[5aiah]

Perhaps. But this is why your usage of primitive logic fails:

He cannot control the quality of the defense he is facing.

 

People would have jumped down his throat if he missed that throw to Jacoby in Denver (nevermind the fact the ball traveled 56 yards in the air to reach Jacoby accurately), but nobody will give him credit for identifying the play and then throwing a bomb -- which Manning could not have made -- right on the money? Come on man

That isn't really primitive logic though,just logic. Lol. He can control how well he plays vs quality pass defenses can't he? Cmon man. Cut it out,Haha. He gets credit for that throw he had to step up and make it after identifying it but it was also the result of terrible defense.

 

I know that.. 59. something.. wasnt talking about that... I was talking about where did you see that 1600 of his yards were deep balls... Im interested to see because not only because of Joe but because i want to see what other Qb's % are.

 

 

The reason i like PFF writing because they go by the ball traveling atleast 20 yards in the air... Not a WR/RB/TE catching a 10 yard catch but creating a 22 yard play

Yeah I am interested in this as well. Would like to see how Joe stacks up in this regard.

[flynismo]

That isn't really primitive logic though,just logic. Lol. He can control how well he plays vs quality pass defenses can't he? Cmon man. Cut it out,Haha. He gets credit for that throw he had to step up and make it after identifying it but it was also the result of terrible defense.

 

Who cares if the defense screwed up? He threw a ball 56 yards downfield right on the money. He took advantage of the defense's weakness, which is what any great QB does...are we seriously debating the role Flacco played in our offense after what he just did? He put up the greatest postseason run in history, and you are trying to tell me with a straight face that we did not ask that much of Flacco, or that we did not ask as much of him as other teams asked of their QB in the playoffs?

 

Put it another way. If we have any other QB, and they dont play on the level Flacco did, feel free to speculate on when our season would have ended...

 

BTW, was Denver not the 3rd and SFO the 4th ranked pass defenses last year?? I'd say he played pretty darn good against them

[gabefergy]

I know that.. 59. something.. wasnt talking about that... I was talking about where did you see that 1600 of his yards were deep balls... Im interested to see because not only because of Joe but because i want to see what other Qb's % are.


The reason i like PFF writing because they go by the ball traveling atleast 20 yards in the air... Not a WR/RB/TE catching a 10 yard catch but creating a 22 yard play

It's from the exact same tool. You can sort by any of the statistics.

[5aiah]

By all accounts the complete opposite happens in practice. Flacco takes full control of the offense, runs it from the LOS and directs everyone. This was reported as one of the main reasons the Ravens wanted Cam to move to more no huddle and brought Caldwell in because Flacco does such a great job doing it at practice. Yet in games it's all Cam's control. There has been reports dating all the way back to 2010 about Cam not letting Joe audible or have more control.

 

Brees wasn't elite under Cam, because much like Flacco, Cam didn't play to the same strengths he showed while at Purde. The reason why Flacco was drafted in the first round is because the things he showed at Delaware are the same things that Ozzie, Eric, Harbs and Cam fell in love with when working out Flacco. As far as the contract that is a very poor attempt to make your point. imo The Ravens were already willing to make Flacco a top 5 paid QB with like 18M per year. So it's not like they didn't offer him a deal that would show how much they believed in him. It's just the nature of the business. Drew Brees went though the same thing. Flacco thought he was worth a certain price and proved it.

 

Now i'm not saying Cam and the System is all the blame for all of Flacco's struggles. Flacco does need to play better, but I'd much rather see him play to his strengths then someone elses. You are watching 2012 Flacco and labeling that as what his "natural talents" are. No that's what you see in 2012. To truly gauge his "natural talents" you have to be able to chronicle almost every Flacco throw.

That is what I am saying though. I've seen all his games live and I have NFL Rewind which goes back to 09. I was just pointing out games which refute your claim of Flacco being a true complete QB and field general already. I think you are missing all his throws to be honest. I think his natural strength is his throwing power and lack of true weakness in the other aspects of passing is what made him a great pick. Also the contract is a great point because it shows what the Ravens think he is as opposed to what you do. Yes it was a good contract but it wasn't the highest paid in NFL history. Also what we liked about him most was his toughness,confidence,poise,and arm strength. The way he threw the ball in weather conditions. You can't teach arm strength. Using Brees is a bad example because he is much more of a "system QB" than Flacco is. In the end we just have to agree to disagree because you think Flacco's greatest strengths are his mental abilities where I think it is his physical abilities. We will see this year, but I think that is more him improving then him already being great at those things. He doesn't have the mental abilities of Brees,or Ryan,or Brady, but he beats them out physically. Everyone goes Cam this and Cam that but Flacco misses routine throws because of accuracy and misreads, more than the other elite. Flacco will prove he can do it all this season I hope, but again, he hasn't yet, and it isn't just because of Cam but his limitations, which you are calling his biggest strengths.     

[5aiah]

Who cares if the defense screwed up? He threw a ball 56 yards downfield right on the money. He took advantage of the defense's weakness, which is what any great QB does...are we seriously debating the role Flacco played in our offense after what he just did? He put up the greatest postseason run in history, and you are trying to tell me with a straight face that we did not ask that much of Flacco, or that we did not ask as much of him as other teams asked of their QB in the playoffs?

 

Put it another way. If we have any other QB, and they dont play on the level Flacco did, feel free to speculate on when our season would have ended...

 

BTW, was Denver not the 3rd and SFO the 4th ranked pass defenses last year?? I'd say he played pretty darn good against them

Never mind you completely missed the point and veered off of the subject while arguing against a strawman. 

BTW, you keep using those stats that miss the point almost as much as you do. Those pass defenses weren't as good as those primitive stats make them out to be. I'm guessing you didn't watch either of those teams last year,did you? Otherwise you would know what I am talking about. This is related to your earlier example in the thread with the Sherman and Roddy play. It's not how it looks. You have to actually watch to get what happened or at least read an advanced summary.

[flynismo]

Flacco will prove he can do it all this season I hope, but again, he hasn't yet, and it isn't just because of Cam but his limitations, which you are calling his biggest strengths.     

 

How then would you explain the night and day difference we saw from the minute Caldwell took over?

Cam's influence in suffocating not just Joe, but the offense as a whole, cannot be overstated. He was the biggest problem, by far.

[flynismo]

Never mind you completely missed the point and veered off of the subject while arguing against a strawman. 

BTW, you keep using those stats that miss the point almost as much as you do. Those pass defenses weren't as good as those primitive stats make them out to be. I'm guessing you didn't watch either of those teams last year,did you? Otherwise you would know what I am talking about. This is related to your earlier example in the thread with the Sherman and Roddy play. It's not how it looks. You have to actually watch to get what happened or at least read an advanced summary.

 

 

You said this:

http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/53395-ron-jaworskis-top-32-qbs-2013/page-21#entry1518719

 

To recap, you made, as you would say, the strawman argument that "Flacco wasn't called upon to do as much as some other QBs" -- which is precisely what we have been discussing the last few posts.

 

In the same post, you went on to denigrate the accomplishments of Flacco and Montana, even implying that Montana's accomplishment was no big deal because he was a West Coast QB.

 

I wish I could say I was making that up, but it is in print, in the link above.

 

So please enlighten me as to what the point was that I am missing?

 

As for the quality of those defenses, we can debate it til the cows come home, but it does not change the fact that it is completely irrelevant to anything. Flacco can only play who is on the schedule. And those teams that were put in front of him received a world of butt-hurt after facing Flacco.

[5aiah]

How then would you explain the night and day difference we saw from the minute Caldwell took over?

Cam's influence in suffocating not just Joe, but the offense as a whole, cannot be overstated. He was the biggest problem, by far.

Think about what else happened bro. Also how much did we actually see. In his first game without Cam he was still pretty bad. Then he was still showing exactly what I have been saying has been his weakness,the mental aspect. Staring down a receiver and getting the ball out late for a pick 6 is something that he is capable of regardless of who is the OC. After that he had a great game vs NY Giants that gave us a optimistic view of the future without cam. He didn't play vs Cincy. So that is just one and one in the regular season. We all know about the playoffs but that was much bigger than the offense, it was still about Ray and basically his handing of the crown to Flacco. The entire team played out of their mind, offense included. We just weren't going to let Ray go without a ring and the defense made key stops(to save games) when the offense could not get it done.

 

You said this:

http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/53395-ron-jaworskis-top-32-qbs-2013/page-21#entry1518719

 

To recap, you made, as you would say, the strawman argument that "Flacco wasn't called upon to do as much as some other QBs" -- which is precisely what we have been discussing the last few posts.

 

In the same post, you went on to denigrate the accomplishments of Flacco and Montana, even implying that Montana's accomplishment was no big deal because he was a West Coast QB.

 

I wish I could say I was making that up, but it is in print, in the link above.

 

So please enlighten me as to what the point was that I am missing?

I did not denigrate their accomplishments merely saying that in both of their systems it was not particularly surprising what they did. Also I agreed they had the most efficient playoffs runs in history because that is exactly what is asked of them. So again you are either making things up or just misunderstanding. Then to reiterate since you don't seem to understand, my point is that Flacco wasn't called upon to be a true field general and win the game mainly off of his arm all game like some previous QBs. Instead he was called on to do what he does best which is attack deep, and he did so vs pass defenses who were extremely vulnerable deep. If you disagree then fine but don't twist what i am saying in a attempt to seem right.

 

 

Edit: Is there a way you can get a full view on the pick 6 I am referring to. It is a no huddle play(Flacco is defintely in control) at 30 seconds left in the half.  Youtube,dvr recording,or NFL rewind. It highlights my point on Flacco's consistency. Also if you can when you get some time watch that game as a whole.

[Alexir]

Not very much, and I'm not saying that you should go into cruise control with two full quarters to play, but once we went up three TDs, we weren't as aggressive as we were most of the second half...we kinda said, "hey defense, here ya go"

 

Yeah, second half was bad on both parts. Defense was on the field way too much and the run game was stalling the offense.

[5aiah]

Yeah, second half was bad on both parts. Defense was on the field way too much and the run game was stalling the offense.

I agree both sides have to take the blame for that crazy comeback, just as both were responsible for our jumping ahead early.

[flynismo]

Think about what else happened bro. Also how much did we actually see. In his first game without Cam he was still pretty bad. Then he was still showing exactly what I have been saying has been his weakness,the mental aspect. Staring down a receiver and getting the ball out late for a pick 6 is something that he is capable of regardless of who is the OC. After that he had a great game vs NY Giants that gave us a optimistic view of the future without cam. He didn't play vs Cincy. So that is just one and one in the regular season. We all know about the playoffs but that was much bigger than the offense, it was still about Ray and basically his handing of the crown to Flacco. The entire team played out of their mind, offense included. We just weren't going to let Ray go without a ring and the defense made key stops(to save games) when the offense could not get it done.

I did not denigrate their accomplishments merely saying that in both of their systems it was not particularly surprising what they did. Also I agreed they had the most efficient playoffs runs in history because that is exactly what is asked of them. So again you are either making things up or just misunderstanding. Then to reiterate since you don't seem to understand, my point is that Flacco wasn't called upon to be a true field general and win the game mainly off of his arm all game like some previous QBs. Instead he was called on to do what he does best which is attack deep, and he did so vs pass defenses who were extremely vulnerable deep. If you disagree then fine but don't twist what i am saying in a attempt to seem right.


Edit: Is there a way you can get a full view on the pick 6 I am referring to. Youtube,dvr recording,or NFL rewind. It highlights my point on Flacco's consistency. Also if you can when you get some time watch that game as a whole.

I recall that game like it was yesterday. After the pick, Flacco laid his face in the ground in shame, as he should have, lol

Long story short, I think you are knit-picking. I can sit here and pick holes in every QB if that's all I wanted to do. Does Flacco stare his receiver down? On occasion. Does he make an occasional boneheaded play? Name one player that doesn't.

In regard to our expectations and what was asked of him, it wasn't simply just effecient, the production was historic. He averaged nearly 300 yards a game and just shy of 4 TDs per game. Stats are whatever, they tell whatever story you want them to, but to say that "Flacco wasn't called upon to be a true field general and win the game mainly off of his arm all game like some previous QBs" is just false. Not to mention in contradiction with what Harbaugh and other staff said. I remember reading this right after the NE game:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000129079/article/john-harbaugh-ravens-let-joe-flacco-cut-it-loose

And how about Torrey saying that we rode Flacco's arm the entire playoffs:
http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Joe-Flacco%E2%80%99s-MVP-Performance-Caps-Off-Historic-Postseason/bdcfcb80-432a-4c49-b52b-192851613bf4

 

Garrett Downing:

Ravens Ride Joe Flacco’s Arm To Victory

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Ravens-Ride-Joe-Flacco%E2%80%99s-Arm-To-Victory/6743e888-49f7-4dbc-adc1-6fdb9a0aec5f

 

Even outside of the organization....ESPN, who traditionally is about anti-Ravens as they get, says Flacco is the reason for our SB victory:

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2012/story/_/id/8912448/super-bowl-xlvii-joe-flacco-right-money

 

I have a ton more of quotes from our very own players and staff who said that we rode Flacco's arm...but I assume that the above is evidence enough?

[Alexir]

I agree both sides have to take the blame for that crazy comeback, just as both were responsible for our jumping ahead early.

 

Absolutely!

[Ravensfan23]

Using Brees is a bad example because he is much more of a "system QB" than Flacco is. In the end we just have to agree to disagree because you think Flacco's greatest strengths are his mental abilities where I think it is his physical abilities.    

 

Man, I had this post already to go, touching on all the points you just made, but it all boils down to what I have quoted. You just summed up everything I've been saying.

 

Every Elite QB is a "system QB" that's the point. When Brees was with Cam did he play the same way he does now? NO. but now he's in a "system" that better suits his natural abilities. Flacco on the other hand is in a system that doesn't fit his, nor has it suited the WRs well imo.

 

Also I never said Flacco's greatest strength was his mental abilities. I said the ability for Flacco to combine all those things into his game is his greatest strength. His high football IQ combined with his physical talents, not just his strong arm. You didn't make it clear if you refute the fact that Flacco plays well in the shotgun, no huddle, uptempo and spreading the defense out and letting him attack. So if all of this is true and if you agree, what makes Flacco good in these areas, but not able to translate it into overall success?

[5aiah]

I recall that game like it was yesterday. After the pick, Flacco laid his face in the ground in shame, as he should have, lol

Long story short, I think you are knit-picking. I can sit here and pick holes in every QB if that's all I wanted to do. Does Flacco stare his receiver down? On occasion. Does he make an occasional boneheaded play? Name one player that doesn't.

In regard to our expectations and what was asked of him, it wasn't simply just effecient, the production was historic. He averaged nearly 300 yards a game and just shy of 4 TDs per game. Stats are whatever, they tell whatever story you want them to, but to say that "Flacco wasn't called upon to be a true field general and win the game mainly off of his arm all game like some previous QBs" is just false. Not to mention in contradiction with what Harbaugh and other staff said. I remember reading this right after the NE game:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000129079/article/john-harbaugh-ravens-let-joe-flacco-cut-it-loose

And how about Torrey saying that we rode Flacco's arm the entire playoffs:
http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Joe-Flacco%E2%80%99s-MVP-Performance-Caps-Off-Historic-Postseason/bdcfcb80-432a-4c49-b52b-192851613bf4

 

Garrett Downing:

Ravens Ride Joe Flacco’s Arm To Victory

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Ravens-Ride-Joe-Flacco%E2%80%99s-Arm-To-Victory/6743e888-49f7-4dbc-adc1-6fdb9a0aec5f

 

Even outside of the organization....ESPN, who traditionally is about anti-Ravens as they get, says Flacco is the reason for our SB victory:

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2012/story/_/id/8912448/super-bowl-xlvii-joe-flacco-right-money

 

I have a ton more of quotes from our very own players and staff who said that we rode Flacco's arm...but I assume that the above is evidence enough?

Of course the players and staff will say that and to some extent they are right. Flacco decimated the Pats pass defense and the Niners, and he made some big throws vs the Broncos deep to beat Peyton Manning. I've never taken anything away from Flacco, just adamant that we realize who he actually is. Against good pass defenses he is not the complete QB who can pick you apart in the short and mid range yet. He will get there but he hasn't been asked,and hasn't been able to do this yet. Claiming he has is a lie and a example of homerism and not watching actual football but just looking at stats.

 

Man, I had this post already to go, touching on all the points you just made, but it all boils down to what I have quoted. You just summed up everything I've been saying.

 

Every Elite QB is a "system QB" that's the point. When Brees was with Cam did he play the same way he does now? NO. but now he's in a "system" that better suits his natural abilities. Flacco on the other hand is in a system that doesn't fit his, nor has it suited the WRs well imo.

 

Also I never said Flacco's greatest strength was his mental abilities. I said the ability for Flacco to combine all those things into his game is his greatest strength. His high football IQ combined with his physical talents, not just his strong arm. You didn't make it clear if you refute the fact that Flacco plays well in the shotgun, no huddle, uptempo and spreading the defense out and letting him attack. So if all of this is true and if you agree, what makes Flacco good in these areas, but not able to translate it into overall success?

Again we just need to agree to disagree because we differ in just major parts of the QB position. Every elite QB isn't a "system QB" if you are using the term right. Lastly that is what makes him a good QB is being able to put it all together, but he has not shown consistency in being able to do anything of those things you mention. Basically I am saying Flacco did what he was best at, now he will improve on his weaker areas and become a complete QB. I guess you are saying he is already complete it was Cam holding him back and we will see it again this season. In the end we are both saying he is going to have a good season as a complete QB, just that I am thinking it will be more improvement throughout and am waiting for a bigger challenge to test his weaker points. Broncos v Ravens will be a huge test as will Ravens v Packers. If either of us are right it results in close to the same thing.

[flynismo]

Of course the players and staff will say that and to some extent they are right. Flacco decimated the Pats pass defense and the Niners, and he made some big throws vs the Broncos deep to beat Peyton Manning. I've never taken anything away from Flacco, just adamant that we realize who he actually is. Against good pass defenses he is not the complete QB who can pick you apart in the short and mid range yet. He will get there but he hasn't been asked,and hasn't been able to do this yet. Claiming he has is a lie and a example of homerism and not watching actual football but just looking at stats.

 

No, that is not true. Look at what Torrey said:

 

“People have to respect him because we rode his arm through the whole playoffs,” wide receiver

Torrey Smith said. “Our defense played well, but we rode his arm.”

 

He was not obligated to say that. If that were the case, why would he essentially throw the defense under the bus by saying Flacco is the main reason we won it all? Is he not obligated to hype up the defense? He said it because it is the truth. It is not true to "some extent".

Or what about ESPN? Are they obligated to say that about Flacco?

 

As for your comment that "Against good pass defenses he is not the complete QB who can pick you apart in the short and mid range yet. He will get there but he hasn't been asked,and hasn't been able to do this yet"

 

You keep making snide comments about homerism and not watching games, and yet I cant help but get the feeling that I'm not the one who that should be directed to...at any rate, no matter what game I bring up, your response is going to be that

"so-and-so defense may have been ranked high, but according to my mythical evaluation standards, those rankings are wrong and those defenses weren't really as good as the rankings say."

[5aiah]

Every Elite QB is a "system QB" that's the point. When Brees was with Cam did he play the same way he does now? NO. but now he's in a "system" that better suits his natural abilities. Flacco on the other hand is in a system that doesn't fit his, nor has it suited the WRs well imo.

Flacco isn't a true "system QB" though. He was in a system that to be honest wasn't that bad for him, it was more the Line was not playing all that well for a young QB to dominate and his WR corps were not in top form. Offensively the system suits him in theory but we pay much more attention to our Defense and haven't drafted WRs well. All our top paid players were on defense mostly. Also our TEs have had to block more than catch passes to protect him because the WRs aren't getting it done often enough. Flacco,Rodgers,Brady,Peyton and Ryan can play outside just one system.  

[5aiah]

You keep making snide comments about homerism and not watching games, and yet I cant help but get the feeling that I'm not the one who that should be directed to...at any rate, no matter what game I bring up, your response is going to be that so-and-so defense may have been ranked high, but according to my mythical evaluation standards, those rankings are wrong and those defenses weren't really as good as the rankings say."

I mean you have made comments that suggest you didn't watch the teams(I can understand since they aren't as fun as the ravens) in regular season or playoffs and you don't understand how Flacco was able to stick to his strengths to beat these highly ranked pass defenses. I watched the two teams in question a bit. Pats not in the conversation since they had a troubled secondary to begin with and once they lost Talib some Pats fans gave up right then and there. Colts secondary was nothing to be scared of so that leaves two teams. The highly ranked pass defenses of Niners and Broncos. Now let me start out by saying these defenses were as good as the rankings say but pass wise when it came to the deep ball they were highly overrated and flawed. The Broncos defensive scheme relied on Champ shutting down his man one on one(an island) while the other DBs shut the rest of the field down and Von and Co. rushes the QB. This worked extremely well in the regular season but the championship isn't won there. The broncos got the bye and came up against the one team in the AFC that could take their biggest flaw(their defensive system) and beat them over the head with it again and again and again. The Baltimore Ravens. I'm not saying Flacco was not good, I am saying that the defensive backs coach and the defensive coordinator left their fatal flaw out in the open for Flacco to have a field day with. Why, I do not know, but they did and paid for it dearly. Aside from Chris Harris that secondary was not prepared for Flacco at all. They underestimated his power and in one of the biggest plays in NFL playoff history,underestimated his love of the deep ball and ignored what everyone else in the NFL knows and ended up losing because of it. Now for the Niners this takes much less since it was pretty much the line play that stopped the Niners from doing what they do best which is stuffing the run and getting to the QB. This didn't happen and Flacco capitalized, picking them apart quite easily. He beat them everywhere on the field because their secondary falls apart quickly with no pass rush. Their CBs aren't as good as ours and that's saying something because our best one isn't on the field. Then their safeties who are normally good in coverage but had been exposed the game before, didn't exactly play up to their hype when tested. Yes they are hard hitters but can they do their job as cover safeties like the stats say they can(when their front 7 isn't running the QB off the field every play), NO they could not. To end this debate since it is fraught with strawmen and uninformed opinions, Flacco had the most impressively efficient playoff run in NFL history without truly addressing his flaws as a QB. Imagine what he will do when they cease to be.    

 

Edit: I stand corrected. The Niners secondary had been exposed in the intermediary and deep passing game long before the previous playoff game as i thought. Proves my point even more.

 https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/29/setting-the-edge-super-bowl-xlvii-part-1/

[codizzle]

Yup

[Ravensfan23]

Flacco isn't a true "system QB" though. He was in a system that to be honest wasn't that bad for him, it was more the Line was not playing all that well for a young QB to dominate and his WR corps were not in top form. Offensively the system suits him in theory but we pay much more attention to our Defense and haven't drafted WRs well. All our top paid players were on defense mostly. Also our TEs have had to block more than catch passes to protect him because the WRs aren't getting it done often enough. Flacco,Rodgers,Brady,Peyton and Ryan can play outside just one system.  

 

Ding ding ding. You nailed it. If all of your offensive personnel suggest that you aren't the type of team that can consistently win by taking deep drops and having long developing routes, then WHY DO IT? It doesn't benefit Flacco if everything around him isn't fit for the system. Hints the term building around your QB.

 

You say the system wasn't that bad for him, but proceed to point out how everything around him was bad for the system lol. I have no doubt that if Flacco had a Oline that was better at pass blocking and WRs who could win 1on1 battles more consistently like DBowe, White, Juilo or AJ then Flacco would have plenty of success in this system. in fact put Flacco at QB for the Chargers with LT, Gates, Jackson and that oline, he would already be viewed as one of the best. Much like Rivers was when he had all those guys, but take that talent away and you start to expose the QB. Right now Flacco's weaknesses and inconsistencies are exposed because he doesn't have the talent to consistently win in this system.

 

However you have a team full of catch and run WRs, strong possession type WRs and some great speed on the outside, you have the personnel that's screaming for a spread type offense. Hints whenever Flacco is allowed to run this style offense he excels. His weaknesses don't show when he's allowed to operate within his natural talents. When he and the personnel around him is asked to conform to what Cam wanted, the offense was stagnant.

 

It's a difference between a guy being allowed to do what he naturally does well and a guy being surrounded by proper personnel to run a certain system. But I'll agree to disagree.

[5aiah]

Ding ding ding. You nailed it. If all of your offensive personnel suggest that you aren't the type of team that can consistently win by taking deep drops and having long developing routes, then WHY DO IT? It doesn't benefit Flacco if everything around him isn't fit for the system. Hints the term building around your QB.

 

You say the system wasn't that bad for him, but proceed to point out how everything around him was bad for the system lol. I have no doubt that if Flacco had a Oline that was better at pass blocking and WRs who could win 1on1 battles more consistently like DBowe, White, Juilo or AJ then Flacco would have plenty of success in this system. in fact put Flacco at QB for the Chargers with LT, Gates, Jackson and that oline, he would already be viewed as one of the best. Much like Rivers was when he had all those guys, but take that talent away and you start to expose the QB. Right now Flacco's weaknesses and inconsistencies are exposed because he doesn't have the talent to consistently win in this system.

 

However you have a team full of catch and run WRs, strong possession type WRs and some great speed on the outside, you have the personnel that's screaming for a spread type offense. Hints whenever Flacco is allowed to run this style offense he excels. When he and the personnel around him is asked to conform to what Cam wanted, the offense was stagnant.

 

It's a difference between a guy being allowed to do what he naturally does well and a guy being surrounded by proper personnel to run a certain system. But I'll agree to disagree.

Yeah hence why I said theoretically he can thrive in this system. He can do so in others as well such as spread offense(but I think you are overrating our WRs ability a bit) and I even think he could have been a unique WC QB a la Rodgers. Or he can do well in a normal vertical offense. Multiple systems he can succeed in is what it means to NOT be a system QB. You guys were using it wrong, instead saying a QB in a system which is an oxymoron. We agree on the pieces not consistently being there for him to thrive but thats to be expected when we focus heavy on defense and don't draft well at WR. Like the atl guy said "you can't have it all". I think Flacco will play in this system for his entire career and he won't have big money guys to do it with either so he better get used to it and just improve himself like i was saying. You might be asking too much, I like what we have here just need to draft and develop receivers better than before and so far we are doing that.  

[Ravensfan23]

Edit: Is there a way you can get a full view on the pick 6 I am referring to. It is a no huddle play(Flacco is defintely in control) at 30 seconds left in the half.  Youtube,dvr recording,or NFL rewind. It highlights my point on Flacco's consistency. Also if you can when you get some time watch that game as a whole.

 

I know exactly what play you refer to and know it well even without re-watching it. Yes it was no huddle and Flacco was definitely in control. The guy made a bad throw. The fade was his initial read he came off it and tried to throw the out route to Boldin. He should have planted his foot and drove the ball out to Boldin but didn't. What's your point. You are talking about one play. You can't make a point on consistency using one play. A reference to consistency would be how that was only Flacco's 2nd redzone turnover in 3 seasons.

 

The game as a whole was a bad one, but what's the point. Are you pointing to that game as if that one game should hold weight over the over 5 games played under Caldwell? Again Flacco isn't without fault. He has bad games just like Brady, Brees, manniing and Rodgers.

[Ravensfan23]

Like you said agree to disagree, because this thread is starting to become about something different then Jaws' rankings and what makes the ranking either accurate or not.

 

Flacco is currently ranked 4th, i'm betting he's higher next year.

[5aiah]

Like you said agree to disagree, because this thread is starting to become about something different then Jaws' rankings and what makes the ranking either accurate or not.

 

Flacco is currently ranked 4th, i'm betting he's higher next year.

He should be 2, but he will be closer this year I am sure.

[flynismo]

He should be 2, but he will be closer this year I am sure.

Well, for all our debating, the end result is that we both draw the same conclusion....funny how that works lol