Ron Jaworski's top 32 QB's 2013

[Ravensfan23]

All I know is, when Drew Brees worked under Cameron, Brees did develop pretty well. However, when it came time to fix his weaknesses, Cam just was not the guy who could do that for him. Once Brees went to an OC who could make the most out of him, he became a beast. Sure, Cam is an excellent developer of QB talent, I'm not arguing that at all. However, he is not the best at helping a QB become consistent or make the next step to being a star in the league because he does not allow a QB to change up the plays or audible all that much. Heck, even Cam himself said that he doesn't believe in audibles, we're not just making that part up.

 

This is exactly why I think Cam will make a fantastic college college. He'll help develop those young QBs for about 3 year and they are off. Cam definitely did a great job with Joe over his first two year, although he did have help with from Hue Jackson.

 

Then in 2010, Flacco started to break out of that game manager shell and was ready to take the next step with the help of Jim Zorn but Cam held him back for whatever reason.

[5aiah]

That's the thing, Flacco's accuracy was never a problem until Cam took the short and intermediate offense away from him. I don't doubt that Flacco has proven to throw the deep ball well and that's been his best area under Cam, but that's exactly why Cam misused him. A sports car is fast indeed, but speed isn't what it does best, it's the handle of the car that's the true gem.

 

Over the first 2 years yes he really helped Flacco's development, but starting in 2010 when Flacco was ready to take the next step Cam held him back and that has hurt his development. So it's not like when people say Cam held him back it's inaccurate. Again Cam had run his course. Of course the deep ball is what Flacco proved to do so well under Cam because that's what he asked him to do more often then not. Flacco was looking to do more and the offense needed more, but Cam kept things from progressing. If you are keeping someone for taking the steps to the next level, how is that possibly helping ones progression?

 

You kept saying Cam helped Flacco with the refinement of his natural talents and I'm starting to think that you either aren't sure of the correct usage of the word refinement, which I doubt. Or you just have misinterpreted what Flacco's natural skills are. So I guess i'll ask. What is Flacco's natural skill/strengths in your opinion.

His natural arm strength and technique. Other than that he isn't really that strong in much else. He is above average is some aspects but his best asset is his throwing power. In your opinion what is his natural ability/strength? Also I'm looking at games just this season where he just is totally inaccurate throwing passes man. His decision making is spotty too as well as his reading ability. I remember him just not getting the ball off in time on certain routes in one of the Steeler games. That has little to do with Cam as it is Flacco's awareness.  

[Ravensfan23]

If the offensive philosophy changes than yes, the comp % should go up. However, I think there will still be a large number of deep passes which will lower the %. But my point was that comp % by itself is not a great indicator of QB success, YPA is IMO a much better metric. If Flacco can complete 65% or higher percent of his passes I would be very happy, but we will have to wait and see how the offense looks. If we are still running the ball at such a high rate on early downs that will hurt the % as well. It's much easier to complete passes on first and second down than third.

 

yea definitely. I think we will still push the ball down field, but I think we'll be smarter. Remember big plays don't always have to come from the deep ball. You can take advantage of the speed this offense has by passing in that 18-25 yard area and allowing guys to catch and run in space for big plays. That's where the percentage will improve in the deep passing game.

 

I definitely think we'll see more first down passes and high percentage passes under Caldewell. We'll see just how much though.

[Ravensfan23]

His natural arm strength and technique. Other than that he isn't really that strong in much else. He is above average is some aspects but his best asset is his throwing power. In your opinion what is his natural ability/strength? Also I'm looking at games just this season where he just is totally inaccurate throwing passes man. His decision making is spotty too as well as his reading ability. I remember him just not getting the ball off in time on certain routes in one of the Steeler games. That has little to do with Cam as it is Flacco's awareness.  

 

That's the thing, imo you can't watch games from this season and determine what Flacco's natural strengths and skills are because at this point he's a product of what Cam Cameron has forced him to become.

 

Flacco sees the field very well, he reads defenses well, throws WRs open, strong decision maker and accurate. A quick release paired with a strong arm allows him to attack ever area of the field. Has strong footwork and pocket awareness. He's very athletic. These are all the things Joe Flacco came into the NFL doing well. I still remember Trent Dilfer saying Flacco was like a magician throwing the football because it looks like he has the ball on a string the way he can put the ball any where he wants. 

 

Cam's system, Flacco was asked to go away from what he "naturally" does well and conform to what Cam wanted from his QB. Cam asked Flacco to take deep drops and had WRs running long developing routes. This basically wiped everything Flacco does well and asks him to hold the ball and wait for guys to get open.

 

Now I'm not saying that Flacco isn't without fault because everyone has faults. But you saying Flacco hasn't shown the skill set to be elite I strongly disagree. I challenge you to what every 2 minute/ game winning drive, watch the games that Cam allows Flacco to run the offense from the LOS, spread the defense and go to work. Then go watch his college tapes if you can and I promise you that you'll find yourself in awe at the things Flacco does when he's allowed to play to his natural talents and not play to what Cam wanted him to be. That's why I say Cam has held him back more then allow him to grow. Even Flacco has been asking to do more of these things over the years because that's what he most comfortable doing.

[Dewy101]

If the offensive philosophy changes than yes, the comp % should go up. However, I think there will still be a large number of deep passes which will lower the %. But my point was that comp % by itself is not a great indicator of QB success, YPA is IMO a much better metric. If Flacco can complete 65% or higher percent of his passes I would be very happy, but we will have to wait and see how the offense looks. If we are still running the ball at such a high rate on early downs that will hurt the % as well. It's much easier to complete passes on first and second down than third.

Yeah i hope so Id love to see the offense in all kinds of different formations like the Niners do, but I dont expect Caldwell to make many changes on the offense. I still think it will be a Vertical Offense with just better play calling so Flaccos completion percentage should go up a little but not much because its so difficult to run. Obviously with the offensive line they have now it should help Flacco with extra time in the pocket.

[purplestart]

This is exactly why I think Cam will make a fantastic college college. He'll help develop those young QBs for about 3 year and they are off. Cam definitely did a great job with Joe over his first two year, although he did have help with from Hue Jackson.

 

Then in 2010, Flacco started to break out of that game manager shell and was ready to take the next step with the help of Jim Zorn but Cam held him back for whatever reason.

Cam shmam. If Caldwell didn't take over as OC last year, we would have never gotten to the Super Bowl. Period.

[flynismo]

If the offensive philosophy changes than yes, the comp % should go up. However, I think there will still be a large number of deep passes which will lower the %. But my point was that comp % by itself is not a great indicator of QB success, YPA is IMO a much better metric. If Flacco can complete 65% or higher percent of his passes I would be very happy, but we will have to wait and see how the offense looks. If we are still running the ball at such a high rate on early downs that will hurt the % as well. It's much easier to complete passes on first and second down than third.

Completion % might be the most overrated stat in football. It tells you very little. Is Chad Pennington REALLY the most accurate passer in nfl history, or was he a dump off king?

I absolutely agree that YPA is a far more accurate barometer of a QB play. Most people make the mistake of thinking YPA is solely a big-play stat, but that is only part of it

[Ravensfan23]

Completion % might be the most overrated stat in football. It tells you very little. Is Chad Pennington REALLY the most accurate passer in nfl history, or was he a dump off king?

I absolutely agree that YPA is a far more accurate barometer of a QB play. Most people make the mistake of thinking YPA is solely a big-play stat, but that is only part of it

 

That same argument can be made for every QB stat honestly. Imo it's all about how you qualify things and anytime you use just raw numbers to come to a conclusion you're probably not gonna get the full story. At least in the NFL. YPA is nothing more then the amount of yards a guy passed for divided by the number of attempts he had.

 

A prime example is Tom Brady. He's among the top QBs in YPA, but the majority of his yards come from shorter routes that produce a lot of YAC. How is that different from a guy being labeled a dump off king. Brady's game is between the LOS to 15 yards down field imo.

 

The whole grading system for QBs is flawed imo.

[atljbo]

I would care more about YPA than comp %. Comp % is a function of the system. When Flacco is at the top of the league in % of deep throws the % isnt going to be very high, but as long as a reasonable % are completed the YPA is still solid.

 

Im just throwing this out there.. Matt Ryan was 8th in deepball % (ball travel atleast 20 yards in the air)  and tied for 1st in over all Comp% ... So was Peyton (whom you guys beat ..lol) So its possible but i get your point ... overall % can be partly system made.... I do think your comp % does atleast need to be around 62% to be efficient

[flynismo]

That same argument can be made for every QB stat honestly. Imo it's all about how you qualify things and anytime you use just raw numbers to come to a conclusion you're probably not gonna get the full story. At least in the NFL. YPA is nothing more then the amount of yards a guy passed for divided by the number of attempts he had.

A prime example is Tom Brady. He's among the top QBs in YPA, but the majority of his yards come from shorter routes that produce a lot of YAC. How is that different from a guy being labeled a dump off king. Brady's game is between the LOS to 15 yards down field imo.

The whole grading system for QBs is flawed imo.

I'm not so sure that most of Brady's yards come off little dinks. He hits his TE especially quite a bit in the 10 - 20 yard range. And he throws a hell of a deep ball himself, just not as often as our boy does. It certainly is far from perfect, but I think it says a lot more than completion % does, since completion % is one of the components of having a high YPA, and considers other factors as well.
But yeah, no single stat, or even collection of stats, will ever tell the whole story...I just think some are better than others.

[flynismo]

It isn't. It is more about the type of throws and situations. I love advanced stats, hate primitive stats.

Types of throws and situations? Is there any such thing as an unimportant pass attempt in a playoff game?
But more to the point, he threw 11 TD in four games. He was obviously asked to make a lot of critical plays...

[gabefergy]

Im just throwing this out there.. Matt Ryan was 8th in deepball % (ball travel atleast 20 yards in the air) and tied for 1st in over all Comp% ... So was Peyton (whom you guys beat ..lol) So its possible but i get your point ... overall % can be partly system made.... I do think your comp % does atleast need to be around 62% to be efficient

Well Flacco was at 60% so I don't think 62% is some kind of magic number. He also threw the most deep balls and his percentage throwing deep was about 7-8% higher than Ryan so that makes a difference. Ryan was in the bottom 3rd of the league in % deep while Flacco was #1. However, Flacco was incredibly successful throwing deep as he completed 16 TDs on deep throws to 0 ints while throwing for over 1600 yards on such attempts. Those numbers completely blow away the rest of the league and is a big part of what makes Flacco so special.

[flynismo]

However, Flacco was incredibly successful throwing deep as he completed 16 TDs on deep throws to 0 ints while throwing for over 1600 yards on such attempts

 

Wow, that is just stunning.

What makes it even more amazing is that everyone and their grandmother knew exactly what we were going to do, and still couldn't stop him

[flynismo]

This thread is so full of win...

http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/50155-if-not-flacco-who/

 

How do we go from debating on who to replace Flacco with to debating where in the top 5 Flacco belongs within a matter of months?

[SecretAgentMan]

This thread is so full of win...
http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/50155-if-not-flacco-who/

How do we go from debating on who to replace Flacco with to debating where in the top 5 Flacco belongs within a matter of months?

That thread is over a year old lol.

I brought it back tho


And that Wizard Guy. LMAO

[SecretAgentMan]

This thread is so full of win...
http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/50155-if-not-flacco-who/

How do we go from debating on who to replace Flacco with to debating where in the top 5 Flacco belongs within a matter of months?

Remeber this gem?

[flynismo]

That thread is over a year old lol.

I brought it back tho


And that Wizard Guy. LMAO

Nah, was started in December, after we lost a couple games. Reminds me of the "Start Bulger" threads after week 2 in 2010...and then from week 3 to the end of the year, Flacco put up the 2nd best QBR in the league...lmao

[gabefergy]

This thread is so full of win...
http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/50155-if-not-flacco-who/

How do we go from debating on who to replace Flacco with to debating where in the top 5 Flacco belongs within a matter of months?

Man that thread is embarrassing for a lot of so called fans. I understand criticism of the QB, but some of those comments lol

I liked getting the last word in at the end though haha

[SecretAgentMan]

Nah, was started in December, after we lost a couple games. Reminds me of the "Start Bulger" threads after week 2 in 2010...and then from week 3 to the end of the year, Flacco put up the 2nd best QBR in the league...lmao

Haha.

This one takes the cake for me

http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/50150-i-want-tyrod-taylor/

[codizzle]

Yup

[K-Dog]

I don't know what you are talking about.
My grandmother was clueless.

[PolishRifle]

I do believe that Cam figured out Joe's talents and was ready to bet on them last season. The no-huddle up tempo offense worked great at home, but for some reason we didn't stay commited to it on the road. There were times, like during the Chargers game or the Cleveland game, when Joe was allowed to play more aggressively late in the game, but overall the offense, just was not the same team on the road as it was at home.

I don't know why Cam couldn't get the same production out of Joe on the road as he did in Baltimore, but the difference was quite jaring (not at all inconsistent, imho):

 

in Baltimore Joe posted:

 

Comp Att    %   Yrds   TD  INT

176    283  62   2363  15  5

 

in 8 games

 

on the road (the last game in Cinci not included) Joe posted:

 

Comp Att    %  Yrds   TD  INT

137    240  57  1420  7     5

 

Under JIm Caldwell, Joe Flacco had 3 great playoff games on the road. Getting consistent performance out of Joe outside of Baltimore in those kind of high pressure situation can't just be a fluke. I believe, that a season with about 62% passing, over 4000 yrds, about 30 TD and around 10 INT would be totally realistic next season.

[BirdWatcher]

Check out this article from USA TODAY:

Average Joe: Audubon's Flacco famous, but still grounded

http://usat.ly/12T2LWH


Buried down in the article is a line that says Joe's first five year average QB rating ranks 18th all time. Considering how handcuffed he was by Cam, I'd say that's pretty darn good.

[rlh445]

Check out this article from USA TODAY:

Average Joe: Audubon's Flacco famous, but still grounded

http://usat.ly/12T2LWH


Buried down in the article is a line that says Joe's first five year average QB rating ranks 18th all time. Considering how handcuffed he was by Cam, I'd say that's pretty darn good.

 

Great article!  Joe's wife probably smacked him after the, 'I don't change diapers, that's her job!,' line :lol:.  It doesn't surprise me that he doesn't really think all that much about everything he's accomplished, he's too busy BBQing, being a dad and getting ready for this season.  We're so lucky to have him.

[5aiah]

That's the thing, imo you can't watch games from this season and determine what Flacco's natural strengths and skills are because at this point he's a product of what Cam Cameron has forced him to become.

 

Flacco sees the field very well, he reads defenses well, throws WRs open, strong decision maker and accurate.. 

 

Now I'm not saying that Flacco isn't without fault because everyone has faults. But you saying Flacco hasn't shown the skill set to be elite I strongly disagree. I challenge you to what every 2 minute/ game winning drive, watch the games that Cam allows Flacco to run the offense from the LOS, spread the defense and go to work. Then go watch his college tapes if you can and I promise you that you'll find yourself in awe at the things Flacco does when he's allowed to play to his natural talents and not play to what Cam wanted him to be. That's why I say Cam has held him back more then allow him to grow. Even Flacco has been asking to do more of these things over the years because that's what he most comfortable doing.

Agree to disagree then because from what I've seen(even just the past day watching the all 22) he doesn't do any of those things consistently on the level other elite QBs do. I'm sure his college tapes show something different but of course since its much easier to do all of those things aside from accuracy in the college game. Also even being less accurate it won't cost you as much in college. Then remember who he was playing in college,it wasn't top competition so i wouldn't even use that to proclaim Flacco is a natural mental QB like say Brees. Flacco has been asking to do more because he felt he was getting better at those things and didn't need to be confined to using his biggest strength. I know as fans we like to look into certain things (like Cam getting fired and Flacco taking off) but we miss to much behind the scenes to get a true read on what is going on sometimes. I see Flacco underthrowing and overthrowing plenty of passes on short mid and long balls during the season and I'm sure it happened in practice too. He really made things happen when they went deep though and that to be honest was more a reason plays were called like that, though there still could have been a bit more balance on Cam's part. Cam's firing was more of a wake up call(for the offense and the entire team) than an indictment on Cam's playcalling which did not drastically change and will not even this year. It was also a message to Flacco that it was time to start becoming a more well rounded and consistent QB, and he answered. There is a reason Ravens offered Flacco that deal during the season because they know what he is better than any of us. If he was what you are saying he already was then he would have gotten that deal whether he won SB or not. But he wasn't. Now he has the success and confidence to take the next step and round out his game and become what you say he is. Check the games vs the steelers(both games),chiefs, and texans and you will see what I mean. He got better as did the entire team in the playoffs for obvious reasons but now its time to see just how much is permanent. We saw it coming during the Giants game now we will see in the Broncos game whether it is here to stay.   

[Ravensfan23]

Check out this article from USA TODAY:

Average Joe: Audubon's Flacco famous, but still grounded

http://usat.ly/12T2LWH


Buried down in the article is a line that says Joe's first five year average QB rating ranks 18th all time. Considering how handcuffed he was by Cam, I'd say that's pretty darn good.

 

That's a great article. Good find. Him being ranked 18th all time in passer rating over the first 5 years has to be a result of the great defense he gets to play with, right?

 

That article showed exactly why the Ravens won't get complacent after winning the Super Bowl. Because Flacco is the leader and no way is that guy getting complacent. I have often wondered this why Flacco wasn't seen on TV more this offseason, now I know. It's because that guy is too cool for commercials lol. Gotta love Flacco.

[5aiah]

Types of throws and situations? Is there any such thing as an unimportant pass attempt in a playoff game?
But more to the point, he threw 11 TD in four games. He was obviously asked to make a lot of critical plays...

Sure but there is a difference when some of them were vs terrible defense sets and playcalls or schemes and others are when the defense does everything right yet you still torch them. That is a pretty big difference between good QBs and great ones. You would agree no? This is why your usage of primitive stats fails.

[5aiah]

That article showed exactly why the Ravens won't get complacent after winning the Super Bowl. Because Flacco is the leader and no way is that guy getting complacent. 

I don't even think its possible for Ravens to be complacent regardless of who is on the team. The organization isn't built that way. Packers,Patriots,and Ravens are just high quality franchises who are always thinking legacy from top to bottom because people buy into their philosophy. 

[atljbo]

Well Flacco was at 60% so I don't think 62% is some kind of magic number. He also threw the most deep balls and his percentage throwing deep was about 7-8% higher than Ryan so that makes a difference. Ryan was in the bottom 3rd of the league in % deep while Flacco was #1. However, Flacco was incredibly successful throwing deep as he completed 16 TDs on deep throws to 0 ints while throwing for over 1600 yards on such attempts. Those numbers completely blow away the rest of the league and is a big part of what makes Flacco so special.

Last year ? I thought his % was 58 or 59

 

Also i was going by PFF research

 

 

Im not just throwing numbers out there.... But yea,, If that 1600 number is right for last year tho.. ill have to see the info but thats down right impressive.

[5aiah]

Last year ? I thought his % was 58 or 59

 

Also i was going by PFF research

 

 

Im not just throwing numbers out there.... But yea,, If that 1600 number is right for last year tho.. ill have to see the info but thats down right impressive.

PFF is done by guys who are watching the game while they do their own stats. I fell in love with just their free stuff but I will be buying a subscription this year. I like their accuracy percentage much more than the completion percentage. Good thing about Flacco is that he never really underthrows just overthrows the deep ball where at least no one can get it.