Ron Jaworski's top 32 QB's 2013

[flynismo]

Thats all i want.. I do the same bro.. I dont just say i think a guy is the best just to be loyal.. I have to have football facts to explain why i think that way... If someone like you do what you did and still explain why they think Flacco is better and point out things ive seen also... Thats a good discussion.. I may not agree but i fully understand what they are saying

 

I just dont get when Falcons fan act like Flacco suck or Ravens fans do the same...

 

Just to make it clear, Ryan is a beast, and anyone who says otherwise knows nothing about football and their opinion is not worth responding to. As 5aiah said, they are polar opposites as players, but they are both great at what they do.

[5aiah]

Thats all i want.. I do the same bro.. I dont just say i think a guy is the best just to be loyal.. I have to have football facts to explain why i think that way... If someone like you do what you did and still explain why they think Flacco is better and point out things ive seen also... Thats a good discussion.. I may not agree but i fully understand what they are saying

 

I just dont get when Falcons fan act like Flacco suck or Ravens fans do the same...

Homers man. But enjoy that sig while you can it won't happen again, and to the avg person it looks like Sherman got schooled but I know better, that play was a good example of how smart he is.

 

Let me tell you why i disagree.... First you cant have it both ways...Not saying you... Im saying ingeneral... With QB's being paid big money.... You cant have a Roddy White Julio Jones and a Suggs, Webb, and Nagta on D.. The salary cap wont allow it... Ozzie felt the D is our bread and better so he put most of the resoruces into that ... Thats a fact... The future will change that because when you are paying your QB mega bucks..... He has to be the reason you are winning (in todays salary cap era) therefore you have to give him the full resources.

 

Now let me tell you why i disagree ...1 thing.. It wasnt just this year.. Lat year their stats wasnt close... Matt had him in stats last year.

 

But back to my point... Matt Ryan didnt always have Julio or Tony... Whaen the Cards beat us (they had a loaded offense) ... We only had Roddy... freakin Justin Peele and Michael Jenkins (who was cut by the freakin Vikings) was our other weapons... We never once said ... Kurt got the better weapons so... Never crossed our mind.,, Thats why i dont get why the ravens fans (The only fans i hear say this) says this.

 

 

 Never heard Philly say this when McNabb had pinkston and fred x as his WR's

 

But back to my point... I do think if Flacco was in another system he coule put up bigger numbers... Ive never heard anyone say Flacco couldnt put up better stats.... But what it seem like ravens fans dont want to admit (thinking eveningly) ... With the ball more in your hands.. That is more potential for turnovers and with a lesser D... There is no cushion for mistakes.. Its more on your shoulders... The ravens D wasnt the same this year (even tho the D was very good in the playoffs) ... Your D has overall been better then ours.

 

Also talk about MVP.... Matt Ryan was talked about as the MVP at mid season ... Whats crazy is in the 2nd half of the season his production was about even with his 1st half.... Its just he is not the bigger name, He had a bad game vs the Cards, and AP and Manning had GREAT years coming off an injury... His production didnt just fall off.

 

I get what you are saying... The thing i dont think you get what im saying is the system you had.... Ryan could fit in that short to mid range system with the weapons you had... That was his game... If you looked at Jaws break down Matt Ryan ... With his anticipation.. Its not about getting alot of seperation... The ball is out of ryans hand before you hit your break so when you hit that break.. The ball is in your chest.. This is not saying Ryan is better or anything.. This is me saying by football sense... He can and has worked in that system.

 

The reason why most feel like Boldin would be miss is because he seemed like your offensive leader and dude came down with alot of 50/50 balls in the playoffs... He was a beast... Thats his game tho

That really sums it up. I don't think Flacco would be the "Winner" he is now in other systems. He could easily put up 4k seasons but he wouldn't have all the playoffs wins everyone loves to use to glorify him. The two most efficient playoffs by a QB(Flacco and Montana) happened for certain reasons. Flacco wasn't called upon to do as much as some other QBs, instead attack the weak pass defenses deep, while Montana played in an offense designed for QBs with weaker arms. He was a west coast QB of course he could win a SB throwing no INTs the whole playoffs. 

[flynismo]

Let me tell you why i disagree.... First you cant have it both ways...Not saying you... Im saying ingeneral... With QB's being paid big money.... You cant have a Roddy White Julio Jones and a Suggs, Webb, and Nagta on D.. The salary cap wont allow it... Ozzie felt the D is our bread and better so he put most of the resoruces into that ... Thats a fact... The future will change that because when you are paying your QB mega bucks..... He has to be the reason you are winning (in todays salary cap era) therefore you have to give him the full resources.

 

Now let me tell you why i disagree ...1 thing.. It wasnt just this year.. Lat year their stats wasnt close... Matt had him in stats last year.

 

But back to my point... Matt Ryan didnt always have Julio or Tony... Whaen the Cards beat us (they had a loaded offense) ... We only had Roddy... freakin Justin Peele and Michael Jenkins (who was cut by the freakin Vikings) was our other weapons... We never once said ... Kurt got the better weapons so... Never crossed our mind.,, Thats why i dont get why the ravens fans (The only fans i hear say this) says this.

 

 

 Never heard Philly say this when McNabb had pinkston and fred x as his WR's

 

But back to my point... I do think if Flacco was in another system he coule put up bigger numbers... Ive never heard anyone say Flacco couldnt put up better stats.... But what it seem like ravens fans dont want to admit (thinking eveningly) ... With the ball more in your hands.. That is more potential for turnovers and with a lesser D... There is no cushion for mistakes.. Its more on your shoulders... The ravens D wasnt the same this year (even tho the D was very good in the playoffs) ... Your D has overall been better then ours.

 

Also talk about MVP.... Matt Ryan was talked about as the MVP at mid season ... Whats crazy is in the 2nd half of the season his production was about even with his 1st half.... Its just he is not the bigger name, He had a bad game vs the Cards, and AP and Manning had GREAT years coming off an injury... His production didnt just fall off.

 

I get what you are saying... The thing i dont think you get what im saying is the system you had.... Ryan could fit in that short to mid range system with the weapons you had... That was his game... If you looked at Jaws break down Matt Ryan ... With his anticipation.. Its not about getting alot of seperation... The ball is out of ryans hand before you hit your break so when you hit that break.. The ball is in your chest.. This is not saying Ryan is better or anything.. This is me saying by football sense... He can and has worked in that system.

 

The reason why most feel like Boldin would be miss is because he seemed like your offensive leader and dude came down with alot of 50/50 balls in the playoffs... He was a beast... Thats his game tho

 

I mainly want to go over this statement, because it covers a lot of what was said already.

 

The mistake you are making is that our system wasn't a quick attack with short to intermediate routes. It was based primarily on running the ball to set up bombs down the field. Which would be great, if it weren't for the fact that we relied heavily on a guy like Boldin to be our deep threat (thank god we got rid of Cam Cameron -- you just cant trust anyone with two first names, lmao), and Torrey being inconsistent (when Torrey is on his game, he's great. But he isn't on his game nearly as much as we need him to be in a system like this).

 

Like I said, it's almost as if Flacco plays with a handicap every week.

[atljbo]

Homers man. But enjoy that sig while you can it won't happen again, and to the avg person it looks like Sherman got schooled but I know better, that play was a good example of how smart he is.

 

That really sums it up. I don't think Flacco would be the "Winner" he is now in other systems. He could easily put up 4k seasons but he wouldn't have all the playoffs wins everyone loves to use to glorify him. The two most efficient playoffs by a QB(Flacco and Montana) happened for certain reasons. Flacco wasn't called upon to do as much as some other QBs, instead attack the weak pass defenses deep, while Montana played in an offense designed for QBs with weaker arms. He was a west coast QB of course he could win a SB throwing no INTs the whole playoffs. 

 

 

I like Sherman... I know it was the Safety kam chancellor whom really got beat.... Ive watched the game multiple times... I just got this up because i cant believe Sherm said Roddy is not a top 100 player..... I do think Roddy can beat Sherman... But i will say this... Sherm is a HECK of a CB... He saved MULTIPLE TD's from happening during that game (would have prob been  TD's on most other CB's)

[atljbo]

I mainly want to go over this statement, because it covers a lot of what was said already.

The mistake you are making is that our system wasn't a quick attack with short to intermediate routes. It was based primarily on running the ball to set up bombs down the field. Which would be great, if it weren't for the fact that we relied heavily on a guy like Boldin to be our deep threat (thank god we got rid of Cam Cameron -- you just cant trust anyone with two first names, lmao), and Torrey being inconsistent (when Torrey is on his game, he's great. But he isn't on his game nearly as much as we need him to be in a system like this).

Like I said, it's almost as if Flacco plays with a handicap every week.

Ok.. Let me say this aother way..... Because you when resaid your question... You said not the systems... The mediocre weapons (your words)

I meant more along the lines of either having a defense that was as good as ours was but having our mediocre WR

I can only go by you guys weapons because thats the discussion... And my point was Matt Ryan short/ Mid passing game would work with those weapons... It fits you guys main WR (Boldin then) game.

Im not dumb enough to say he would put up gaudy numbers... I dont know that... I cant say that...

That was my point.. Wasnt talking about coaching or this or that...

[flynismo]

Flacco wasn't called upon to do as much as some other QBs

 

 

He averaged 32 attempts per game in the post season.

In comparison, Kaepernick averaged 27.

Peyton threw 43 in 6 quarters, which averages out to 7 per quarter, or 28 attempts in a normal 4 quarter game, before Flacco sent him home sucking his thumb.

 

So if pass attempts are an indication, we asked plenty of Flacco.

[Gordo52]

Let me tell you why i disagree.... First you cant have it both ways...Not saying you... Im saying ingeneral... With QB's being paid big money.... You cant have a Roddy White Julio Jones and a Suggs, Webb, and Nagta on D.. The salary cap wont allow it... Ozzie felt the D is our bread and better so he put most of the resoruces into that ... Thats a fact... The future will change that because when you are paying your QB mega bucks..... He has to be the reason you are winning (in todays salary cap era) therefore you have to give him the full resources.

Now let me tell you why i disagree ...1 thing.. It wasnt just this year.. Lat year their stats wasnt close... Matt had him in stats last year.

But back to my point... Matt Ryan didnt always have Julio or Tony... Whaen the Cards beat us (they had a loaded offense) ... We only had Roddy... freakin Justin Peele and Michael Jenkins (who was cut by the freakin Vikings) was our other weapons... We never once said ... Kurt got the better weapons so... Never crossed our mind.,, Thats why i dont get why the ravens fans (The only fans i hear say this) says this.

That's because of the need to compare Flacco & Ryan, because both were drafted in the same class.

[flynismo]

Ok.. Let me say this aother way..... Because you when resaid your question... You said not the systems... The mediocre weapons (your words)

I can only go by you guys weapons because thats the discussion... And my point was Matt Ryan short/ Mid passing game would work with those weapons... It fits you guys main WR (Boldin then) game.

Im not dumb enough to say he would put up gaudy numbers... I dont know that... I cant say that...

That was my point.. Wasnt talking about coaching or this or that...

 

I dont think Jesus himself could put up gaudy numbers with Cameron as the OC.

But once we got rid of him, and replaced him with Peyton's old OC, it was game over. Flacco didn't just win, he put up monster stats as well, ever since the switch was made.

So with that in mind, I think Ryan could play well under the new regime, but it brings us full circle back to the "weapons" argument...

it still wouldn't be as good as what he has now, probably not even close, since Boldin is (as of recently) a far less effective possesion receiver than Roddy, and Julio is just flat out better than Torrey. Plus Gonzo is kinda good.

[atljbo]

I dont think Jesus himself could put up gaudy numbers with Cameron as the OC.

But once we got rid of him, and replaced him with Peyton's old OC, it was game over. Flacco didn't just win, he put up monster stats as well, ever since the switch was made.

So with that in mind, I think Ryan could play well under the new regime, but it brings us full circle back to the "weapons" argument...

it still wouldn't be as good as what he has now, probably not even close, since Boldin is (as of recently) a far less effective possesion receiver than Roddy, and Julio is just flat out better than Torrey. Plus Gonzo is kinda good.

 

I dont think his Father could do it in Mularkey's Offense... We see where Mularkey is a year after getting a HC job

[5aiah]

So if pass attempts are an indication, we asked plenty of Flacco.

It isn't. It is more about the type of throws and situations. I love advanced stats, hate primitive stats.

 

 

[atljbo]

 

It isn't. It is more about the type of throws and situations. I love advanced stats, hate primitive stats.

 

 

 

 

ill let yall have this discussion (ill sit back and watch a good football discussion while i have time) but this is what bothers me when ppl plainly look at stats and compare Stafford,Romo, and Cutler to Ryan (Somebody said they would take Cutler over Ryan) .... You have to look at the stats within the stats.. Like Situations, 3rd down % ... How can you compare Romo who makes HUGE mistakes in clutch time and compare him with Ryan who made big throws in those important times.

 

I dont get it... Their are empty stats and very important stats.... Its like Ware having 4 sacks vs the Eagles and they got BLOWED out the building.... Was those 4 sacks important sacks or padded sacks ?

[Ravensfan23]

I agree, both great stats and SB wins are possible.

 

The bump in statistics wont be enough to put him in the 5k yard, 35 TD club, it will be more of an increase in efficiency and as a result, more consistency. We simply dont throw enough for him to put up those numbers.

And the thing is, Cam was a big part of Joe's inconsistent nature. The most infamous example being that SEA game, where Joe threw over 50 passes, and Rice carried the ball 8 times....in a game where the score was tight all afternoon long. Of course, Joe carries a lot of the blame as well, but it is no coincidence that Flacco was the best QB in the league from the time Cam was fired to the SB.

 

The thing about the passing totals is, you don't have to throw the ball much more then what Flacco has done over the last 3 years. It's all about the one word I have bolded. Efficiency. Efficiency. Efficiency. It's just as important to the offense as Team Team Team for Harbaugh.

 

I think most people look at those big numbers and think you gotta be this pass happy QB to reach them. No you need to be efficient. Now let me be clear, I'm not talking about the 5,000yd mark, that's rare, I'm talking about being in the 4,300-4,700yds marks consistently.

 

If you go back to 09 and '10 Flacco was very efficient and was around the top 10 in completion percentage those years. Why? because the offense was full of possession type WRs. They got to a spot and Flacco hit them. The issue was that when the speed we so desperately needed arrived, Cam switched the offense to all vertical and no high percentage passes.

 

I bring this up because I keep hearing people say Flacco will never produce big numbers because we don't pass the ball enough. That's inaccurate. Flacco has attempted about 32.2 passes per game since 2009. Over the same time Rodgers has averaged 33.4ppg. Both Flacco and Rodgers get about 12 yards per completion. So why does Rodgers get the yards and the TDs, not because he passes more, but because he is more efficient. Over the last 4 years Rodgers completed less then 65% once while Flacco has never completed 65% of his passes.  If Flacco improves his efficiency to 65%, just last season along he would have produced 4,440yds and of course the TDs come with better efficiency because you have more opportunities.

[Ravensfan23]

I was right with you until the last sentence.  Flacco is more than Eli and Ben until he actually doesn't make the playoffs in a season.  Hell, even then he would still be more than them until it happens again.  Brady has missed the playoffs.  Peyton has missed the playoffs.  Brees has missed the playoffs.  Ryan has missed the playoffs.  Flacco and Russell Wilson are the only current QBs right now who have won a playoff game every season of their respective careers.  The numbers may or may not come (I'm betting they will), but he is still better than Eli and Ben who simply cannot be counted on season after season to get the job done.  Flacco doesn't need everything to line up exactly right to make a playoff run, and he's proven that he will do enough to ensure that happens every year.

 

That was my point, maybe I didn't clear it up enough because I was ranting lol. But yes Flacco is superior to both Ben and Eli right now imo. I've said plenty that he's currently my #2 behind only Rodgers. The comment about Ben and Eli spoke more to consistency, not talent.

 

Yes Flacco has made the playoffs ever year, won game and I honestly don't see that stopping anytime soon. But I strongly feel that Flacco is the type of QB that can have his team in the playoffs no matter the shortfalls of the overall team. Right now the Ravens could really dominate the AFC North, much like the Pats and Colts did. I know everyone will say this division is much tougher but I don't care. However with that being said, if Flacco doesn't improve his consistency, that playoff streak gets tougher and tougher to maintain imo. Up until last season the Ravens have always had a strong team around Flacco. Last year things got sticky and we almost missed the playoffs. It wasn't until Cam got fired that not only things got better but Flacco played much more consistent. Didn't matter if he was home or on the road. Good defense or bad one and of course the pressure of the  moment never gets to him. I don't think the consistency thing will be a issue without Cam. But that consistency thing is the only hiccup holding Flacco back imo.

[5aiah]

ill let yall have this discussion (ill sit back and watch a good football discussion while i have time) but this is what bothers me when ppl plainly look at stats and compare Stafford,Romo, and Cutler to Ryan (Somebody said they would take Cutler over Ryan) .... You have to look at the stats within the stats.. Like Situations, 3rd down % ... How can you compare Romo who makes HUGE mistakes in clutch time and compare him with Ryan who made big throws in those important times.

 

I dont get it... Their are empty stats and very important stats.... Its like Ware having 4 sacks vs the Eagles and they got BLOWED out the building.... Was those 4 sacks important sacks or padded sacks ?

It is easier to miss the big picture with primitive stats. Which is why I hate the "Flacco will have 4k yards and 35TDs" sentiment. Like who cares just get me a ring. We are banking on Flacco becoming an all around MVP type QB but he hasn't been that yet and doesn't have all the skills yet, mainly because of our system. What he did get was refinement in his most natural skills and a ring from CAM's system. Not gonna get into that theory though after the Dilfer incident. Gonna end up most hated on this board. But to do it anyway,lol, Flacco doesn't win a ring without Cam forcing him to refine what he does best. The deep ball is what won us that ring. Gotta give Cam credit. Like it or not, he set us up pretty for the future.

[atljbo]

The thing about the passing totals is, you don't have to throw the ball much more then what Flacco has done over the last 3 years. It's all about the one word I have bolded. Efficiency. Efficiency. Efficiency.

 

I agree with this... Thats why the completion % must improve..

 

Stafford has high numbers but look at the gaudy amount of throws he has to have

[beanfigger]

It is easier to miss the big picture with primitive stats. Which is why I hate the "Flacco will have 4k yards and 35TDs" sentiment. Like who cares just get me a ring. We are banking on Flacco becoming an all around MVP type QB but he hasn't been that yet and doesn't have all the skills yet, mainly because of our system. What he did get was refinement in his most natural skills and a ring from CAM's system. Not gonna get into that theory though after the Dilfer incident. Gonna end up most hated on this board. But to do it anyway,lol, Flacco doesn't win a ring without Cam forcing him to refine what he does best. The deep ball is what won us that ring. Gotta give Cam credit. Like it or not, he set us up pretty for the future.

 

Of course Cam's system set us up to succeed.  The only problem is that he doesn't use the deep ball correctly at the right times.  He seemed to only ever use the deep patterns no matter the situation, so the defense could just sit back.  Cam Cameron is to offensive coordinator what Marty Schottenheimer is to head coaching.  It's good enough to get you to the finish line, but not quite enough to cross it before the other contenders.  He put a nice system in place, but didn't realize when to dial it up and when to let the opportunities come to him.  Someone had to come in to regain the balance and keep the defense honest.

[5aiah]

Of course Cam's system set us up to succeed.  The only problem is that he doesn't use the deep ball correctly at the right times.  He seemed to only ever use the deep patterns no matter the situation, so the defense could just sit back.  Cam Cameron is to offensive coordinator what Marty Schottenheimer is to head coaching.  It's good enough to get you to the finish line, but not quite enough to cross it before the other contenders.  He put a nice system in place, but didn't realize when to dial it up and when to let the opportunities come to him.  Someone had to come in to regain the balance and keep the defense honest.

I concur. Hit it right on the head. I still have nightmares of our other coordinators though. Cam wasn't the biggest monster. We seem to be steadily improving in that regard.

[Ravensfan23]

I agree with this... Thats why the completion % must improve..

 

Stafford has high numbers but look at the gaudy amount of throws he has to have

 

Yes and that's why Stafford isn't elite, but just a good QB. He throws the ball about 45 times a game. He he only attempted about 34-38 passes which is the average among top ten QBs he would only pass for about 4,200yds. But because of his high passing numbers and only because of his high passing numbers do people think he's an rising star in the NFL. He's the definition of Fantasy Elite.

[gabefergy]

I agree with this... Thats why the completion % must improve..

 

Stafford has high numbers but look at the gaudy amount of throws he has to have

I would care more about YPA than comp %. Comp % is a function of the system. When Flacco is at the top of the league in % of deep throws the % isnt going to be very high, but as long as a reasonable % are completed the YPA is still solid.

[Ravensfan23]

It is easier to miss the big picture with primitive stats. Which is why I hate the "Flacco will have 4k yards and 35TDs" sentiment. Like who cares just get me a ring. We are banking on Flacco becoming an all around MVP type QB but he hasn't been that yet and doesn't have all the skills yet, mainly because of our system. What he did get was refinement in his most natural skills and a ring from CAM's system. Not gonna get into that theory though after the Dilfer incident. Gonna end up most hated on this board. But to do it anyway,lol, Flacco doesn't win a ring without Cam forcing him to refine what he does best. The deep ball is what won us that ring. Gotta give Cam credit. Like it or not, he set us up pretty for the future.

 

I give Cam credit but you are sadly mistaken if you can't realize that Cam getting fired meant more to this team winning the Super Bowl as anything. Cam is a really good OC and he did some great thing with the Ravens no doubt, but his time in Baltimore had run it's course.

 

I refer to what Mike Smith said about Matt Ryan. He said that they build a offense around Matt Ryan early that allowed him to just come in and play his role. They could run well and had 2 really strong security blankets in Tony G and White. Not his exact words. But he said, around his 4th year or so Ryan had developed to the point where he proved the offense could and should be built around him. Thus they took the necessary steps to build the offense around him and he's taken off the last 2 seasons imo.

 

The same is true about Flacco and his development. He developed to the point where he could run the offense no problem and was actually asking for more control but Cam rarely allowed it. Instead of Flacco's development progressing to the same rate as Ryan's like he had been up to that point in his career. Where Ryan's coaches structured his offense to fit what he does best, Flacco's coach just continued to try and make him tailor his game to Cam's system.

 

You and so many other miss the point on Flacco when you label the deep ball as what he does best. That's not accurate. Flacco is able to throw the deep ball well because of what he does best. His strong suite is the ability to attack the field at every level and that puts ultimate stress on a defense. Cam dropped the ball because he wasn't able to infuse speed into this offense properly. Flacco didn't get refinement of his natural skill set as you say, he actually was asked to go away from his natural skill set and that can be directly credited to Cam Cameron.

[jimmypowder]

[quote name="usmccharles" post="1518309" timestamp="1374282261"] I just want to say one thing about the Ryan-Flacco thing. Matt Ryan has skills, obviously, but Joe has won with less talent on offense for years. Rice is better than turner or steven jackson, but Ryans wr corps is insane. Roddy white, Julio Jones, and Tony G...I just wonder what flacco could do with a group like that. just my .02 cents....or in this economy: .0001 cents[/quote] Yeah the Falcons receiving corp is exactly why I didn't want to see them in the Super Bowl , not because of Matty Ice who shouldn't Even have a playoff win but should thank Pete Caroll for one .

[Ravensfan23]

I would care more about YPA than comp %. Comp % is a function of the system. When Flacco is at the top of the league in % of deep throws the % isnt going to be very high, but as long as a reasonable % are completed the YPA is still solid.

 

But that's the thing that most of us miss. Yes Flacco throws alot, but the deep ball wasn't often set up well under Cam. The comp % actually helps set up the deep passes and thus the yards per completion/yards per attempt comes. If you are consistently attacking that 12-18 and 18-25 yard area of the field it puts so much stress on the LBs and Safeties and that's when the deep ball opens up even more. The run game also help because of the play action.

 

I no it's hard to believe because we just haven't seen it, but Flacco should be completing 66-68% of his passes. But the offense has to be run the right way. The deep ball is there just because of the speed along, but Caldwell has already said it's a big emphasis on the short to intermediate passing game, because that's what keeps the offense moving.

[The Oakland Cathedral]

ill let yall have this discussion (ill sit back and watch a good football discussion while i have time) but this is what bothers me when ppl plainly look at stats and compare Stafford,Romo, and Cutler to Ryan (Somebody said they would take Cutler over Ryan) .... You have to look at the stats within the stats.. Like Situations, 3rd down % ... How can you compare Romo who makes HUGE mistakes in clutch time and compare him with Ryan who made big throws in those important times.

I dont get it... Their are empty stats and very important stats.... Its like Ware having 4 sacks vs the Eagles and they got BLOWED out the building.... Was those 4 sacks important sacks or padded sacks ?

I'd take Cutler over Ryan if I wanted a pretty boy he could dominate commercials while being inaccurate and oft injured.

[5aiah]

I give Cam credit but you are sadly mistaken if you can't realize that Cam getting fired meant more to this team winning the Super Bowl as anything. Cam is a really good OC and he did some great thing with the Ravens no doubt, but his time in Baltimore had run it's course.

 

You and so many other miss the point on Flacco when you label the deep ball as what he does best. That's not accurate. Flacco is able to throw the deep ball well because of what he does best. His strong suite is the ability to attack the field at every level and that puts ultimate stress on a defense. Cam dropped the ball because he wasn't able to infuse speed into this offense properly. Flacco didn't get refinement of his natural skill set as you say, he actually was asked to go away from his natural skill set and that can be directly credited to Cam Cameron.

Cam getting fired jolted the team, I get that. That has nothing to do with my statement that he helped in Flacco's development more than people(Ravens fans) give him credit for. Also I don't label the deep ball as the only thing he can do or anything, but it has been what he has done best because of the system he is in. He can do more but I think its more inaccurate when you say its not what he HAS done best. He will prove this season whether or not he can consistently accurate hitting the short to mid range stuff. His accuracy has always been a question but I guess people forget that. Yes he has the ability to zip it all over the field but does he have the accuracy on a consistent basis,no. We haven't seen that at all. Granted he hasn't had the best line or WR corps but other QBs have done better with less during the season. When you say all the stuff about attacking the field at every level and putting the "ultimate stress" on defenses, that makes me wonder whether I need to watch the regular season again or you are just referring to the SB run. The latter was being hot and on a roll more than consistency. Flacco wasn't consistently accurate enough to do those things you claim. The "ultimate stress" is Vintage Brady making all the throws all over the field no matter who the receivers are as well as making all the reads on the defense and routes. This season we may see that from Flacco. But we haven't yet. He got refinement of his natural strengths up until now. Now we need him to eliminate the weaknesses in his game.

[SeaHawk]

All I know is, when Drew Brees worked under Cameron, Brees did develop pretty well. However, when it came time to fix his weaknesses, Cam just was not the guy who could do that for him. Once Brees went to an OC who could make the most out of him, he became a beast. Sure, Cam is an excellent developer of QB talent, I'm not arguing that at all. However, he is not the best at helping a QB become consistent or make the next step to being a star in the league because he does not allow a QB to change up the plays or audible all that much. Heck, even Cam himself said that he doesn't believe in audibles, we're not just making that part up.

[5aiah]

All I know is, when Drew Brees worked under Cameron, Brees did develop pretty well. However, when it came time to fix his weaknesses, Cam just was not the guy who could do that for him. Once Brees went to an OC who could make the most out of him, he became a beast. Sure, Cam is an excellent developer of QB talent, I'm not arguing that at all. However, he is not the best at helping a QB become consistent or make the next step to being a star in the league because he does not allow a QB to change up the plays or audible all that much. Heck, even Cam himself said that he doesn't believe in audibles, we're not just making that part up.

Killer post there. That is why Cam had to go. Now is the time for Flacco to become well rounded after dumping Cam but it seems like some Ravens fans are already declaring him so. This year isn't gonna be a cakewalk,Flacco still has a ways to go. I hope if things aren't going all golden with shiny stats and POTW accolades that ravens fans don't turn on him for not reaching their insane expectations or not fitting who they think he is.

[SeaHawk]

Killer post there. That is why Cam had to go. Now is the time for Flacco to become well rounded after dumping Cam but it seems like some Ravens fans are already declaring him so. This year isn't gonna be a cakewalk,Flacco still has a ways to go. I hope if things aren't going all golden with shiny stats and POTW accolades that ravens fans don't turn on him for not reaching their insane expectations or not fitting who they think he is.

 

There will definitely be growing pains for sure. Not only for him, but also for Caldwell as well, who will be getting his first full year of being an OC. Granted, he was an offensive mind with Manning in Indy, but he was not the guy who was calling the game, and he even had an OC working for him when he was the actual coach. I keep going back to Brees, but people forget that Brees also had growing pains when he was working on perfecting his craft without Cam. He wasn't always the 40-50 TD a season stud that people think of him as. However, just like with Brees getting away from Cameron, its a needed step for Flacco's progression to be away from Cam too.

[hawkprey]

There will definitely be growing pains for sure. Not only for him, but also for Caldwell as well, who will be getting his first full year of being an OC. Granted, he was an offensive mind with Manning in Indy, but he was not the guy who was calling the game, and he even had an OC working for him when he was the actual coach. I keep going back to Brees, but people forget that Brees also had growing pains when he was working on perfecting his craft without Cam. He wasn't always the 40-50 TD a season stud that people think of him as. However, just like with Brees getting away from Cameron, its a needed step for Flacco's progression to be away from Cam too.

Part of what you're missing is that the ugly stats aren't just a product of needing time to develop, but an offensive system that makes it difficult to complete passes. This is not me trying to say Flacco is the best thing ever, or that Cam is the reason he looked bad for the last 5 years. But the whole losing Cam thing is not necessarily "a chance at progression" as it is "easier system". QBs don't improve that much from year to year. It takes so much to play at the NFL level that no one just flips a switch and gets it all of the sudden. Drastic changes in stats from year to year are much more a reflection of the QB's surroundings.

[gabefergy]

But that's the thing that most of us miss. Yes Flacco throws alot, but the deep ball wasn't often set up well under Cam. The comp % actually helps set up the deep passes and thus the yards per completion/yards per attempt comes. If you are consistently attacking that 12-18 and 18-25 yard area of the field it puts so much stress on the LBs and Safeties and that's when the deep ball opens up even more. The run game also help because of the play action.

 

I no it's hard to believe because we just haven't seen it, but Flacco should be completing 66-68% of his passes. But the offense has to be run the right way. The deep ball is there just because of the speed along, but Caldwell has already said it's a big emphasis on the short to intermediate passing game, because that's what keeps the offense moving.

If the offensive philosophy changes than yes, the comp % should go up. However, I think there will still be a large number of deep passes which will lower the %. But my point was that comp % by itself is not a great indicator of QB success, YPA is IMO a much better metric. If Flacco can complete 65% or higher percent of his passes I would be very happy, but we will have to wait and see how the offense looks. If we are still running the ball at such a high rate on early downs that will hurt the % as well. It's much easier to complete passes on first and second down than third.

[Ravensfan23]

Cam getting fired jolted the team, I get that. That has nothing to do with my statement that he helped in Flacco's development more than people(Ravens fans) give him credit for. Also I don't label the deep ball as the only thing he can do or anything, but it has been what he has done best because of the system he is in. He can do more but I think its more inaccurate when you say its not what he HAS done best. He will prove this season whether or not he can consistently accurate hitting the short to mid range stuff. His accuracy has always been a question but I guess people forget that. Yes he has the ability to zip it all over the field but does he have the accuracy on a consistent basis,no. We haven't seen that at all. Granted he hasn't had the best line or WR corps but other QBs have done better with less during the season. When you say all the stuff about attacking the field at every level and putting the "ultimate stress" on defenses, that makes me wonder whether I need to watch the regular season again or you are just referring to the SB run. The latter was being hot and on a roll more than consistency. Flacco wasn't consistently accurate enough to do those things you claim. The "ultimate stress" is Vintage Brady making all the throws all over the field no matter who the receivers are as well as making all the reads on the defense and routes. This season we may see that from Flacco. But we haven't yet. He got refinement of his natural strengths up until now. Now we need him to eliminate the weaknesses in his game.

 

That's the thing, Flacco's accuracy was never a problem until Cam took the short and intermediate offense away from him. I don't doubt that Flacco has proven to throw the deep ball well and that's been his best area under Cam, but that's exactly why Cam misused him. A sports car is fast indeed, but speed isn't what it does best, it's the handle of the car that's the true gem.

 

Over the first 2 years yes he really helped Flacco's development, but starting in 2010 when Flacco was ready to take the next step Cam held him back and that has hurt his development. So it's not like when people say Cam held him back it's inaccurate. Again Cam had run his course. Of course the deep ball is what Flacco proved to do so well under Cam because that's what he asked him to do more often then not. Flacco was looking to do more and the offense needed more, but Cam kept things from progressing. If you are keeping someone for taking the steps to the next level, how is that possibly helping ones progression?

 

You kept saying Cam helped Flacco with the refinement of his natural talents and I'm starting to think that you either aren't sure of the correct usage of the word refinement, which I doubt. Or you just have misinterpreted what Flacco's natural skills are. So I guess i'll ask. What is Flacco's natural skill/strengths in your opinion.