Ron Jaworski's top 32 QB's 2013

[flynismo]

Rather than hijack this thread, why not start a new one?

There's a method behind the madness

[atljbo]

Do you mean this past season, or for the past five years?

 

Which leads me to another question...

Would you rather have our defense (when it was good, not last year's mediocre D) and our WR, or keep what you have now?

 

No right or wrong answer; just curious

 

 

I love what i have now... To be honest i honestly think Ryan would have did good in the ravens system because it fitted his style... Thats why i wanted Boldin (when we went after him the sign time you guys got him) ... The short/mid range anticipation game was Matt Ryans thing (before this year... We went deep way more) .. Thats Boldin game... Its not about getting total seperation... Its about timing with Ryan anticipation... When his 3 step drop ends the ball is coming out  so as long as the WR is a good route runner... They will get their catches.

 

Thats why Ryan and Tony G works so good... Tony is not what he was athletically... The guy is a savy route runner and great hands.... The timing Ryan has with him (his anticipation skills) makes it work in a high level... Thats why on the top 100 intro for Ryan... It should him telling tony basically "run this route and dont F around on your break" .. Be there after the 5 yards .. And tony basically said he loves that Matt tells him what to do.. He doesnt have to think.

 

So thats why i kind of laugh when ppl just bring up Ryan weapons like that makes him... Those weapons talk about how Matt helps them on and off the field with the scheme... Dude helps them to.

 

So to sum it up... Yea i would feel the offense was limiting him if we had what you guys have because he showed this year he has a more complete game (Also remember this was his first year with a new OC) .... But still think he would be what he was (He did have a offense before Tony and Julio got here) ... Because that offense would actually fit what he was good at. The short and mid passing game with timing.

[hawkprey]

I love what i have now... To be honest i honestly think Ryan would have did good in the ravens system because it fitted his style... Thats why i wanted Boldin (when we went after him the sign time you guys got him) ... The short/mid range anticipation game was Matt Ryans thing (before this year... We went deep way more) .. Thats Boldin game... Its not about getting total seperation... Its about timing with Ryan anticipation... When his 3 step drop ends the ball is coming out  so as long as the WR is a good route runner... They will get their catches.

 

Thats why Ryan and Tony G works so good... Tony is not what he was athletically... The guy is a savy route runner and great hands.... The timing Ryan has with him (his anticipation skills) makes it work in a high level... Thats why on the top 100 intro for Ryan... It should him telling tony basically "run this route and dont F around on your break" .. Be there after the 5 yards .. And tony basically said he loves that Matt tells him what to do.. He doesnt have to think.

 

So thats why i kind of laugh when ppl just bring up Ryan weapons like that makes him... Those weapons talk about how Matt helps them on and off the field with the scheme... Dude helps them to.

 

So to sum it up... Yea i would feel the offense was limiting him if we had what you guys have because he showed this year he has a more complete game (Also remember this was his first year with a new OC) .... But still think he would be what he was (He did have a offense before Tony and Julio got here) ... Because that offense would actually fit what he was good at. The short and mid passing game with timing.

It seems like a real waste to have spent all those picks to get Julio if the quality of the receiver doesn't matter with Ryan.

[Gordo52]

So Brady is ranked #3. No surprise, I'm guessing Manning is next and then Rodgers. I wouldn't be surprised to see him have Rodgers next though and have Manning número ùno.

[5aiah]

I love what i have now... To be honest i honestly think Ryan would have did good in the ravens system because it fitted his style... Thats why i wanted Boldin (when we went after him the sign time you guys got him) ... The short/mid range anticipation game was Matt Ryans thing (before this year... We went deep way more) .. Thats Boldin game... Its not about getting total seperation... Its about timing with Ryan anticipation... When his 3 step drop ends the ball is coming out  so as long as the WR is a good route runner... They will get their catches.

 

Thats why Ryan and Tony G works so good... Tony is not what he was athletically... The guy is a savy route runner and great hands.... The timing Ryan has with him (his anticipation skills) makes it work in a high level... Thats why on the top 100 intro for Ryan... It should him telling tony basically "run this route and dont F around on your break" .. Be there after the 5 yards .. And tony basically said he loves that Matt tells him what to do.. He doesnt have to think.

 

So thats why i kind of laugh when ppl just bring up Ryan weapons like that makes him... Those weapons talk about how Matt helps them on and off the field with the scheme... Dude helps them to.

 

So to sum it up... Yea i would feel the offense was limiting him if we had what you guys have because he showed this year he has a more complete game (Also remember this was his first year with a new OC) .... But still think he would be what he was (He did have a offense before Tony and Julio got here) ... Because that offense would actually fit what he was good at. The short and mid passing game with timing.

Yeah that is a nice difference between the two. Ryan has the great anticipation skills to make those crucial contested throws while Joe has the killer arm strength to make it happen. That was another difference i was trying to point out between QBs. They get it done in different ways.

 

So Brady is ranked #3. No surprise, I'm guessing Manning is next and then Rodgers. I wouldn't be surprised to see him have Rodgers next though and have Manning número ùno.

Man that sucks, Manning better be number two with an explanation of how his receiving corps pushes him over Brady. Screw Manning he doesn't belong next to Rodgers. Brady is way better. 

[callahan09]

My post was in agreement and support of your position.

As for Joe, well...he is the QB for the "best" team (the Superbowl Champs) that would make him the best QB, by NFL standards. He is obviously not statistically the best QB, but stats are for fantasy geeks and are pretty much meaningless. Neither the statistically best team (The team that carried the best seasonal stats) nor the best team on "paper" typically win the SB. Which means, by the NFL measuring system, these are not the best teams.

 

That's exactly right.  The 2010 San Diego Chargers were #1 in defense AND #1 in offense, and they went 9-7 and missed the playoffs.  Stats can be fun and an interesting topic of discussion, but stats alone are not an answer to who is the best at what they do.  There are far too many other variables involved for stats alone to be a significant factor in the distinction between the quality of players and teams.  There's the surrounding players, there's the coaching and game planning, there's the schedule, there's situational factors all to be considered, etc.

[atljbo]

It seems like a real waste to have spent all those picks to get Julio if the quality of the receiver doesn't matter with Ryan.

You missed the point of the discussion that i was having with flynismo is thats what you got from my answer

 

He asked me what i feel would happen if Ryan had the ravens team instead of what we have now... I explain why i think Ryans game would fit that system....I stated off with all take what we have... Julio is dynamic... No doubt about that... Dude will be a top 3 WR in this league 1 day (some thing he is now) ...

[display name]

And their record was?

Team accomplishment. Flacco even said once that he thinks quarterbacks get too much credit for wins and too much blame for losses. There are 21 other guys starting games besides Brees. And while QB is the most important, let's keep that in mind.

[1/28/01]

Flacco is good. Rodgers has been great. /discussion

[callahan09]

Am I mistaken, or is Torrey Smith the only wide receiver the Ravens have drafted higher than the 4th round since Flacco came to the team?  And he was chosen at the bottom of the 2nd round.  Am I mistaken here as well, or is Jacoby Jones the only wide receiver we signed in free agency or traded for under the age of 30 since Flacco has been here?  And he was 28 when we signed him.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong there, but it does point to the fact that the Ravens haven't exactly gone out of their way to provide Flacco with the kind of receiving talent that some of the other "top 5" quarterbacks get.  Flacco has had relatively late draft picks, cheap free agents, aging vets, and a long string of busts who were out of the NFL shortly after playing a season or two with Flacco.

[flaccopoe]

So Brady is ranked #3. No surprise, I'm guessing Manning is next and then Rodgers. I wouldn't be surprised to see him have Rodgers next though and have Manning número ùno.

 

Brees?!

[1/28/01]

Brees?!

Go back a few pages... ;). Was already listed.

[5aiah]

Brees?!

Man Brees got shafted. He threw alot of picks,sure, but he was throwing against defenses without a run game and down alot when everyone knew he was gonna throw. He still got it done best he could. Despite the defense expecting a pass every down. That is a field general.

[flynismo]

You missed the point of the discussion that i was having with flynismo is thats what you got from my answer

 

He asked me what i feel would happen if Ryan had the ravens team instead of what we have now... I explain why i think Ryans game would fit that system....I stated off with all take what we have... Julio is dynamic... No doubt about that... Dude will be a top 3 WR in this league 1 day (some thing he is now) ...

 

I dont think he missed what you were saying, I think - may be wrong - that he was saying that you are undermining what an impact having the talent you have at WR makes -- Ryan can instruct them all he wants, and that is a great credit to him that he is the unquestioned leader -- but if those guys dont have the talent to make those plays, then it's all for nothing.

 

-- Edit --

 

Your sig of Roddy burning Sherman is a good example of what I mean

[flaccopoe]

Man Brees got shafted. He threw alot of picks,sure, but he was throwing against defenses without a run game and down alot when everyone knew he was gonna throw. He still got it done best he could. Despite the defense expecting a pass every down. That is a field general.

 

And he's not even 6 feet!  A true leader.  I have him right behind Rodgers.

[flynismo]

I love what i have now... To be honest i honestly think Ryan would have did good in the ravens system because it fitted his style... Thats why i wanted Boldin (when we went after him the sign time you guys got him) ... The short/mid range anticipation game was Matt Ryans thing (before this year... We went deep way more) .. Thats Boldin game... Its not about getting total seperation... Its about timing with Ryan anticipation... When his 3 step drop ends the ball is coming out  so as long as the WR is a good route runner... They will get their catches.

 

Thats why Ryan and Tony G works so good... Tony is not what he was athletically... The guy is a savy route runner and great hands.... The timing Ryan has with him (his anticipation skills) makes it work in a high level... Thats why on the top 100 intro for Ryan... It should him telling tony basically "run this route and dont F around on your break" .. Be there after the 5 yards .. And tony basically said he loves that Matt tells him what to do.. He doesnt have to think.

 

So thats why i kind of laugh when ppl just bring up Ryan weapons like that makes him... Those weapons talk about how Matt helps them on and off the field with the scheme... Dude helps them to.

 

So to sum it up... Yea i would feel the offense was limiting him if we had what you guys have because he showed this year he has a more complete game (Also remember this was his first year with a new OC) .... But still think he would be what he was (He did have a offense before Tony and Julio got here) ... Because that offense would actually fit what he was good at. The short and mid passing game with timing.

 

Maybe I should have worded my previous question slightly differently...

I didn't really mean switching the exact players, I meant more along the lines of either having a defense that was as good as ours was but having our mediocre WR, or keeping what you have right now. In other words, would you sacrifice your current WR group to have a top 3 defense?

 

I ask because you said you wonder how Ryan would have done in the playoffs with our defense, and there is a point to all this, lol...

[Ravensfan23]

Are we seriously comparing Flacco to Brady?

First off, I don't want Flacco to he compared to him. I want him to leave his own damn legacy behind

Second off. Flacco is the next Aikman if anything.

Mediocre in the regular season. But he will show up and work his tail off when the big game comes.

Joe Flacco is one of the most clutch QBs in the NFL. There. I said it. Ryan is clutch too.

When the big game comes, he always shows up.

I don't give two craps about "statistics". He ain't starting on my fantasy team.

The only stat that matters is WINS.

I don't want us to think of Flacco as elite, he's not. There are four elite QBs in the NFL
Rodgers
Peyton
Brady
Brees.

I want Joe to be what I call a winner. A guy who, while not having the best statistics ever, will play his heart out and do whatever it takes to win. A guy who doesn't complain and when he gets knocked down, he gets right back up. A guy who's willing to take the risk when the game is on the line.

I don't care about elite anymore. The "press/media" may say Flacco is a bum, or is overrated, but anyone who knows a damn thing about football will tell you this.

"Flacco is a winner. Hell, he's great, all he does his win. The Ravens win a close game and Flacco throws 150 yards and 1 TD, that TD was prob the game winner. He will do what it takes. That, not stats is what makes a great QB"

PS.
Give Flacco one year without Cam before talking about stats.

He's going to be a 4000 yard passer. With or without Rice forcing the balance.

 

How can you say Flacco doesn't compare to Brady he's more like Aikman because it's not about stats. Then say give Flacco one year without Cam before talking about stats?

 

The fact of the matter is, Brady and Aikman were much of the same guys when they won Super Bowls. Brady was a guy who never posted great numbers when he won Super Bowls. He had a strong balanced team that was already built and he was just asked to guide the ship.

 

Aikman was the same exact way, he had a great team around him, the only difference is that the Pats had to eventually break up that strong defense for the betterment of the team because the NFL isn't built the same anymore. Then cowboys of the 90 could be together for 10+ years. With Free Agency now, teams are consistently changing. Aikman could afford to be just good enough for a long time. Nowadays you can't win if you are just good enough, not consistently because you can't pay everybody like you could back then.

 

Brady didn't take his next step into putting up MVP numbers until year 8. If you look at Brady's numbers over his first 7 years, he and Flacco are almost identical, so how exactly do they not comparable? I hear people contradict themselves so much when it comes to Flacco. You say you don't want him to be considered elite because it's not about the numbers it's about the wins, but then turn around and the same person makes the argument of how Cam held Flacco back so much and now his numbers will be much better? People act like it has to be one or the other, either great numbers or wins. Newsflash, both are possible. Flacco can put up great regular season numbers and still show up big time when the playoffs come. The winnest QBs since 2008 are Flacco, Ryan, Brady and Rodgers. Those other guys have great numbers and consistently gets their teams to the playoffs so why can't Flacco?

 

People are kidding themselves if they don't think that Flacco needs to improve his inconsistent play and he has even admitted that. I strongly feel that Flacco will improve upon his consistency issues under Caldwell, but lets not act like just good enough will be good enough. Let us all be reminded of how Ravens Nation felt after the first Broncos game and before they creamed the Giants. I had the moderate this very board with a lot of you guys, so I know it wasn't pretty. If the Ravens loss that game, we are all saying how Flacco needs to step up and be more consistent because the overall team wasn't as good. That's what an elite QB is, it's not about fantasy stats. That's hollow and just kind of happens by default. It's about being able to overcome any shortfalls your team has. Flacco does that, but consistency is a must, or else he'll be nothing better then Eli and Ben who are good enough to win Super Bowls when everything lines up just right, but can't get their teams back to the playoffs the next season if the team is weak in any area.

[flynismo]

How can you say Flacco doesn't compare to Brady he's more like Aikman because it's not about stats. Then say give Flacco one year without Cam before talking about stats?

 

The fact of the matter is, Brady and Aikman were much of the same guys when they won Super Bowls. Brady was a guy who never posted great numbers when he won Super Bowls. He had a strong balanced team that was already built and he was just asked to guide the ship.

 

Aikman was the same exact way, he had a great team around him, the only difference is that the Pats had to eventually break up that strong defense for the betterment of the team because the NFL isn't built the same anymore. Then cowboys of the 90 could be together for 10+ years. With Free Agency now, teams are consistently changing. Aikman could afford to be just good enough for a long time. Nowadays you can't win if you are just good enough, not consistently because you can't pay everybody like you could back then.

 

Brady didn't take his next step into putting up MVP numbers until year 8. If you look at Brady's numbers over his first 7 years, he and Flacco are almost identical, so how exactly do they not comparable? I hear people contradict themselves so much when it comes to Flacco. You say you don't want him to be considered elite because it's not about the numbers it's about the wins, but then turn around and the same person makes the argument of how Cam held Flacco back so much and now his numbers will be much better? People act like it has to be one or the other, either great numbers or wins. Newsflash, both are possible. Flacco can put up great regular season numbers and still show up big time when the playoffs come. The winnest QBs since 2008 are Flacco, Ryan, Brady and Rodgers. Those other guys have great numbers and consistently gets their teams to the playoffs so why can't Flacco?

 

People are kidding themselves if they don't think that Flacco needs to improve his inconsistent play and he has even admitted that. I strongly feel that Flacco will improve upon his consistency issues under Caldwell, but lets not act like just good enough will be good enough. Let us all be reminded of how Ravens Nation felt after the first Broncos game and before they creamed the Giants. I had the moderate this very board with a lot of you guys, so I know it wasn't pretty. If the Ravens loss that game, we are all saying how Flacco needs to step up and be more consistent because the overall team wasn't as good. That's what an elite QB is, it's not about fantasy stats. That's hollow and just kind of happens by default. It's about being able to overcome any shortfalls your team has. Flacco does that, but consistency is a must, or else he'll be nothing better then Eli and Ben who are good enough to win Super Bowls when everything lines up just right, but can't get their teams back to the playoffs the next season if the team is weak in any area.

 

I agree, both great stats and SB wins are possible.

 

The bump in statistics wont be enough to put him in the 5k yard, 35 TD club, it will be more of an increase in effeciency and as a result, more consistency. We simply dont throw enough for him to put up those numbers.

And the thing is, Cam was a big part of Joe's inconsistent nature. The most infamous example being that SEA game, where Joe threw over 50 passes, and Rice carried the ball 8 times....in a game where the score was tight all afternoon long. Of course, Joe carries a lot of the blame as well, but it is no coincidence that Flacco was the best QB in the league from the time Cam was fired to the SB.

[atljbo]

flynismo, on 20 Jul 2013 - 1:57 PM, said:

I dont think he missed what you were saying, I think - may be wrong - that he was saying that you are undermining what an impact having the talent you have at WR makes -- Ryan can instruct them all he wants, and that is a great credit to him that he is the unquestioned leader -- but if those guys dont have the talent to make those plays, then it's all for nothing.

Like Richard Sherman said.. When he was discussing Ryan being underrated in his eyes... What good QB dont have weapons ?

Not undermining the weapons.. I feel you guys Undermine Ryan by just saying its all about his weapons... To come out the NFC... You must have weapons because these dudes can drop 25 and up on the best Defenses.

 

 

Maybe I should have worded my previous question slightly differently...
I didn't really mean switching the exact players, I meant more along the lines of either having a defense that was as good as ours was but having our mediocre WR, or keeping what you have right now. In other words, would you sacrifice your current WR group to have a top 3 defense?

I ask because you said you wonder how Ryan would have done in the playoffs with our defense, and there is a point to all this, lol...

No because the NFC is not built that way... You must score alot of points week in and week out ... The NFC is built differently then the AFC.... So no i wouldnt... regardless i wouldnt because i love my team...

We def need a better D.. We did good vs the Brees and Mannings but the mobile QB's ate our Lunch ... I mean ate our Lunch in our faces ...

We was able to scheme up the mobile guys but vs the mobile guys you need your front 4 guys to be able to get to the QB... We was 28th in sacks... The problem is all of those guys (mobile QB's) are in the NFC

 

Plus as a Falcons fan its rare to say this but the last couple of years is the first time i can legitly say i feel like we can beat any team... No .. This team is a better match up for us then this team....

 

I feel like our O can go toe to toe with anyteam... Ofcourse the Packers is that one team like the guy that once beat you up... You are now a great fighter but its still a lil thing in the back of your head that remember he whipped yo *** bad ..lol

[flynismo]

Like Richard Sherman said.. When he was discussing Ryan being underrated in his eyes... What good QB dont have weapons ?
 

 

Well, that's kind of my point...

Our WR are inconsistent, at best. For example, everyone thinks Boldin was a huge loss for us, but they forget that his 900+ yards and 4 TD won't be difficult to replace, and is pretty poor performance for your #1 go to guy.

His game doesn't rely on seperation, but guys like Torrey and Jacoby, if they do not create seperation, they are invisible in a game. For the past couple years, we have had to listen to announcers talk during the game at how our WR do little to help Flacco by not getting seperation. And it is painful to watch Flacco pedaling around the pocket for 5 - 7 seconds, waiting for someone to break free -- and then listen to people complain that he holds on to the ball too long.

 

The only consistent help he gets is from Rice, and even he tends to disappear against top defenses...which means Flacco is basically playing with a handicap when we play against good pass defenses (and as you hinted at, there are a lot of good defenses in the AFC, especially AFCN)...little help at all from his RB and WR.

 

Despite that, until last year, Flacco and Ryan's career stats were nearly identical....which is the main reason why a lot of us look at what Ryan has, and the defenses he plays against, and that he plays half the year in a dome, and we wonder what Flacco could do with that kind of environment.

 

I know you'll disagree with this, and this is pure opinion on my part, but if we had Ryan and not Flacco, I'm not so sure we do what we did. On the other hand, replace Boldin / Torrey with Roddy / Julio, and Flacco's numbers would probably be there with guys like Brady and Manning, on route to SB MVP

[GrimCoconut]

Someone go on Madden and simulate Matt Ryan with the Ravens teams of the past 5 years and someone take Flacco and simulate the Falcons games of the past 5 years. Let me know what happens.

[5aiah]

Your sig of Roddy burning Sherman is a good example of what I mean

Actually that play wasn't on Sherman and had less to do with Roddy skills then Kam messing up the play. Go back and look at it, anyone could have done that.

 

Like Richard Sherman said.. When he was discussing Ryan being underrated in his eyes... What good QB dont have weapons ?

Not undermining the weapons.. I feel you guys Undermine Ryan by just saying its all about his weapons... To come out the NFC... You must have weapons because these dudes can drop 25 and up on the best Defenses.

Yeah they kinda are, but to be fair I used to do the same thing until I went back and looked at some Falcons games. Ryan is at his best reading defenses,anticipating and timing the routes of his receivers, and using his well rounded arm to make all the throws. Flacco is at his best using his cannon to attack defenses at their weak points(usually deep or to the sidelines thanks to our run game) and making throws few other QBs can. Stafford,Rodgers, and Cutler come to mind. They are just different QBs and both wouldn't be as good in the other's system. Both teams have built up their offenses around their QB with different goals in mind.

[flynismo]

Actually that play wasn't on Sherman and had less to do with Roddy skills then Kam messing up the play. Go back and look at it, anyone could have done that.

 

Wow, 30 seconds on google and saw the replay...love the internet!

 

But yeah, that was a bad example to use

[flynismo]

They are just different QBs and both wouldn't be as good in the other's system. Both teams have built up their offenses around their QB with different goals in mind.

While that is probably true, it doesn't hurt having Roddy / Julio / Gonzo running the routes.

 

But I also think people underestimate how well rounded Flacco is. He makes passes into windows that would make 99% of QBs out there crap their pants...and they're not all deep routes. A lot of them are short to intermediate routes where the coverage is very tight, or the WR is double covered, but Flacco will drill it into the tiniest of openings -- those passes are successful not just because of the accuracy of the throw, but also due to pure velocity. And that translates very nicely into any system you play in.

[GrimCoconut]

While that is probably true, it doesn't hurt having Roddy / Julio / Gonzo running the routes.

But I also think people underestimate how well rounded Flacco is. He makes passes into windows that would make 99% of QBs out there crap their pants...and they're not all deep routes. A lot of them are short to intermediate routes where the coverage is very tight, or the WR is double covered, but Flacco will drill it into the tiniest of openings -- those passes are successful not just because of the accuracy of the throw, but also due to pure velocity. And that translates very nicely into any system you play in.

I do think Flacco throws the ball so hard into those tight windows because he believes it's either caught or dropped. I think our WR struggles are partially related to Flacco throwing the ball so hard.

[beanfigger]

How can you say Flacco doesn't compare to Brady he's more like Aikman because it's not about stats. Then say give Flacco one year without Cam before talking about stats?

 

The fact of the matter is, Brady and Aikman were much of the same guys when they won Super Bowls. Brady was a guy who never posted great numbers when he won Super Bowls. He had a strong balanced team that was already built and he was just asked to guide the ship.

 

Aikman was the same exact way, he had a great team around him, the only difference is that the Pats had to eventually break up that strong defense for the betterment of the team because the NFL isn't built the same anymore. Then cowboys of the 90 could be together for 10+ years. With Free Agency now, teams are consistently changing. Aikman could afford to be just good enough for a long time. Nowadays you can't win if you are just good enough, not consistently because you can't pay everybody like you could back then.

 

Brady didn't take his next step into putting up MVP numbers until year 8. If you look at Brady's numbers over his first 7 years, he and Flacco are almost identical, so how exactly do they not comparable? I hear people contradict themselves so much when it comes to Flacco. You say you don't want him to be considered elite because it's not about the numbers it's about the wins, but then turn around and the same person makes the argument of how Cam held Flacco back so much and now his numbers will be much better? People act like it has to be one or the other, either great numbers or wins. Newsflash, both are possible. Flacco can put up great regular season numbers and still show up big time when the playoffs come. The winnest QBs since 2008 are Flacco, Ryan, Brady and Rodgers. Those other guys have great numbers and consistently gets their teams to the playoffs so why can't Flacco?

 

People are kidding themselves if they don't think that Flacco needs to improve his inconsistent play and he has even admitted that. I strongly feel that Flacco will improve upon his consistency issues under Caldwell, but lets not act like just good enough will be good enough. Let us all be reminded of how Ravens Nation felt after the first Broncos game and before they creamed the Giants. I had the moderate this very board with a lot of you guys, so I know it wasn't pretty. If the Ravens loss that game, we are all saying how Flacco needs to step up and be more consistent because the overall team wasn't as good. That's what an elite QB is, it's not about fantasy stats. That's hollow and just kind of happens by default. It's about being able to overcome any shortfalls your team has. Flacco does that, but consistency is a must, or else he'll be nothing better then Eli and Ben who are good enough to win Super Bowls when everything lines up just right, but can't get their teams back to the playoffs the next season if the team is weak in any area.

 

I was right with you until the last sentence.  Flacco is more than Eli and Ben until he actually doesn't make the playoffs in a season.  Hell, even then he would still be more than them until it happens again.  Brady has missed the playoffs.  Peyton has missed the playoffs.  Brees has missed the playoffs.  Ryan has missed the playoffs.  Flacco and Russell Wilson are the only current QBs right now who have won a playoff game every season of their respective careers.  The numbers may or may not come (I'm betting they will), but he is still better than Eli and Ben who simply cannot be counted on season after season to get the job done.  Flacco doesn't need everything to line up exactly right to make a playoff run, and he's proven that he will do enough to ensure that happens every year.

[5aiah]

Well, that's kind of my point...

Our WR are inconsistent, at best. For example, everyone thinks Boldin was a huge loss for us, but they forget that his 900+ yards and 4 TD won't be difficult to replace, and is pretty poor performance for your #1 go to guy.

His game doesn't rely on seperation, but guys like Torrey and Jacoby, if they do not create seperation, they are invisible in a game. For the past couple years, we have had to listen to announcers talk during the game at how our WR do little to help Flacco by not getting seperation. And it is painful to watch Flacco pedaling around the pocket for 5 - 7 seconds, waiting for someone to break free -- and then listen to people complain that he holds on to the ball too long.

 

The only consistent help he gets is from Rice, and even he tends to disappear against top defenses...which means Flacco is basically playing with a handicap when we play against good pass defenses (and as you hinted at, there are a lot of good defenses in the AFC, especially AFCN)...little help at all from his RB and WR.

 

Despite that, until last year, Flacco and Ryan's career stats were nearly identical....which is the main reason why a lot of us look at what Ryan has, and the defenses he plays against, and that he plays half the year in a dome, and we wonder what Flacco could do with that kind of environment.

 

I know you'll disagree with this, and this is pure opinion on my part, but if we had Ryan and not Flacco, I'm not so sure we do what we did. On the other hand, replace Boldin / Torrey with Roddy / Julio, and Flacco's numbers would probably be there with guys like Brady and Manning, on route to SB MVP

Love your post because it is a lightning rod for this debate which won't conclude until after this season. The thing is Flacco didn't play against a good a pass defense as Ryan did last year. He came closest vs the incredibly flawed badly coached "amazing" secondary of the Broncos. Their entire scheme rest on everyone else locking down the rest of the field while Champ is the greatest corner ever and no one could ever catch a pass on him short, middle, or deep. That was in my opinion was a talented pass defense, but one of the worst playoff ready defenses in history for such an elite team. The Pats lost Talib early and that would have been a totally different game had he played a complete game. The Niners are all about the front seven and their safeties had been exposed before the Superbowl. Coverage wise they were overrated. Flacco has yet to deal with an elite pass cover team in the playoffs. Ryan has.

 

While that is probably true, it doesn't hurt having Roddy / Julio / Gonzo running the routes.

 

But I also think people underestimate how well rounded Flacco is. He makes passes into windows that would make 99% of QBs out there crap their pants...and they're not all deep routes. A lot of them are short to intermediate routes where the coverage is very tight, or the WR is double covered, but Flacco will drill it into the tiniest of openings -- those passes are successful not just because of the accuracy of the throw, but also due to pure velocity. And that translates very nicely into any system you play in.

100% agree that his power can help him drill it in but he isn't on the same level as Ryan in terms of reading the plays and timing the routes. Flacco makes you go "wow he really drilled that in there", Ryan makes you go "wow his receiver ran that route so nice and got open for him what an easy pass". Doesn't matter for Falcons fans sorry to say because they will never win a ring regardless. Hawks will always have the advantage over them and so will Niners. You guys got lucky vs Hawks.

[atljbo]

Well, that's kind of my point...

Our WR are inconsistent, at best. For example, everyone thinks Boldin was a huge loss for us, but they forget that his 900+ yards and 4 TD won't be difficult to replace, and is pretty poor performance for your #1 go to guy.

His game doesn't rely on seperation, but guys like Torrey and Jacoby, if they do not create seperation, they are invisible in a game. For the past couple years, we have had to listen to announcers talk during the game at how our WR do little to help Flacco by not getting seperation. And it is painful to watch Flacco pedaling around the pocket for 5 - 7 seconds, waiting for someone to break free -- and then listen to people complain that he holds on to the ball too long.

 

The only consistent help he gets is from Rice, and even he tends to disappear against top defenses...which means Flacco is basically playing with a handicap when we play against good pass defenses (and as you hinted at, there are a lot of good defenses in the AFC, especially AFCN)...little help at all from his RB and WR.

 

Despite that, until last year, Flacco and Ryan's career stats were nearly identical....which is the main reason why a lot of us look at what Ryan has, and the defenses he plays against, and that he plays half the year in a dome, and we wonder what Flacco could do with that kind of environment.

 

I know you'll disagree with this, and this is pure opinion on my part, but if we had Ryan and not Flacco, I'm not so sure we do what we did. On the other hand, replace Boldin / Torrey with Roddy / Julio, and Flacco's numbers would probably be there with guys like Brady and Manning, on route to SB MVP

 

 

Let me tell you why i disagree.... First you cant have it both ways...Not saying you... Im saying ingeneral... With QB's being paid big money.... You cant have a Roddy White Julio Jones and a Suggs, Webb, and Nagta on D.. The salary cap wont allow it... Ozzie felt the D is our bread and better so he put most of the resoruces into that ... Thats a fact... The future will change that because when you are paying your QB mega bucks..... He has to be the reason you are winning (in todays salary cap era) therefore you have to give him the full resources.

 

Now let me tell you why i disagree ...1 thing.. It wasnt just this year.. Lat year their stats wasnt close... Matt had him in stats last year.

 

But back to my point... Matt Ryan didnt always have Julio or Tony... Whaen the Cards beat us (they had a loaded offense) ... We only had Roddy... freakin Justin Peele and Michael Jenkins (who was cut by the freakin Vikings) was our other weapons... We never once said ... Kurt got the better weapons so... Never crossed our mind.,, Thats why i dont get why the ravens fans (The only fans i hear say this) says this.

 

 

 Never heard Philly say this when McNabb had pinkston and fred x as his WR's

 

But back to my point... I do think if Flacco was in another system he coule put up bigger numbers... Ive never heard anyone say Flacco couldnt put up better stats.... But what it seem like ravens fans dont want to admit (thinking eveningly) ... With the ball more in your hands.. That is more potential for turnovers and with a lesser D... There is no cushion for mistakes.. Its more on your shoulders... The ravens D wasnt the same this year (even tho the D was very good in the playoffs) ... Your D has overall been better then ours.

 

Also talk about MVP.... Matt Ryan was talked about as the MVP at mid season ... Whats crazy is in the 2nd half of the season his production was about even with his 1st half.... Its just he is not the bigger name, He had a bad game vs the Cards, and AP and Manning had GREAT years coming off an injury... His production didnt just fall off.

 

I get what you are saying... The thing i dont think you get what im saying is the system you had.... Ryan could fit in that short to mid range system with the weapons you had... That was his game... If you looked at Jaws break down Matt Ryan ... With his anticipation.. Its not about getting alot of seperation... The ball is out of ryans hand before you hit your break so when you hit that break.. The ball is in your chest.. This is not saying Ryan is better or anything.. This is me saying by football sense... He can and has worked in that system.

 

The reason why most feel like Boldin would be miss is because he seemed like your offensive leader and dude came down with alot of 50/50 balls in the playoffs... He was a beast... Thats his game tho

[beanfigger]

I do think Flacco throws the ball so hard into those tight windows because he believes it's either caught or dropped. I think our WR struggles are partially related to Flacco throwing the ball so hard.

 

Probably true, and that also leads to very low INT numbers compared to the risks he takes.  Heath Evans is the only one who likes to add up his "almost" INTs.

[atljbo]

Actually that play wasn't on Sherman and had less to do with Roddy skills then Kam messing up the play. Go back and look at it, anyone could have done that.

 

Yeah they kinda are, but to be fair I used to do the same thing until I went back and looked at some Falcons games. Ryan is at his best reading defenses,anticipating and timing the routes of his receivers, and using his well rounded arm to make all the throws. Flacco is at his best using his cannon to attack defenses at their weak points(usually deep or to the sidelines thanks to our run game) and making throws few other QBs can. Stafford,Rodgers, and Cutler come to mind. They are just different QBs and both wouldn't be as good in the other's system. Both teams have built up their offenses around their QB with different goals in mind.

 

Thats all i want.. I do the same bro.. I dont just say i think a guy is the best just to be loyal.. I have to have football facts to explain why i think that way... If someone like you do what you did and still explain why they think Flacco is better and point out things ive seen also... Thats a good discussion.. I may not agree but i fully understand what they are saying

 

I just dont get when Falcons fan act like Flacco suck or Ravens fans do the same...