SAM's NFL Hit List

[gabefergy]

its just PFF'S opinion too....there are no quantifiable numbers for a center that aren't highly subjective

that's what we are talking here opinions.....and you get yours from a website and I come to mine through WATCHING FOOTBALL

You keep telling yourself that. Ignore the fact that PFF has been validated by numerous outside sources including teams own grades as being over 99% accurate. Im not saying its the end all and be all, but it isn't some sort of subjective grading scale. It's play by play analysis of each position and frankly OL is probably the easiest position to analyze. Do you get beat or do you beat your man.

[berad]

You keep telling yourself that. Ignore the fact that PFF has been validated by numerous outside sources including teams own grades as being over 99% accurate. Im not saying its the end all and be all, but it isn't some sort of subjective grading scale. It's play by play analysis of each position and frankly OL is probably the easiest position to analyze. Do you get beat or do you beat your man.

Validated by teams? What's this now?

PFF grading is subjective and the formulas they come up are also subjective. Things they can quantify are useful but their grading is sketchy.

[SteelersProphet]

You keep telling yourself that. Ignore the fact that PFF has been validated by numerous outside sources including teams own grades as being over 99% accurate. Im not saying its the end all and be all, but it isn't some sort of subjective grading scale. It's play by play analysis of each position and frankly OL is probably the easiest position to analyze. Do you get beat or do you beat your man.

ok first of all whats this 99% mularky......like that's something anyone could know or prove, and sounds like exaggerated nonsense

 

and no its not easy....because as ive stated for one ben gets sacked a lot due to how he plays....if the o-line holds for 8 seconds but ben still gets sacked that's not the o-lines fault.....but PFF would say "oh that was a sack, big old negative there" its all subjective

[T3hRaven]

i thought you might come back with that lol

for myself i decided to go with arguably the best pass rusher at #13

thought long and hard about it, almost took Wilson (pick #14) who was very good as a rookie, but still a rookie non-the-less

anyway, i believe the QB that I'll play will be (and also considered) better than yours coming the start of 2014 regular season

or i might lose him to T3hRaven lol

 

That depends on your opinion on the crop of rookie QBs this year.

[gabefergy]

Validated by teams? What's this now?

PFF grading is subjective and the formulas they come up are also subjective. Things they can quantify are useful but their grading is sketchy.

From the PFF website:

 

For those who don’t know, our overall grades are broken down into the various facets of play; for example, a linebacker is graded under coverage, run defense, pass rushing, and penalties (discipline). Now for each of these facets of play we are confident (within certain parameters, of course) that the rankings are very good. To say a certain guard is ranked fifth as a run blocker out of 81 rated players is usually perfectly reasonable. We are the only company to grade every player on every play of every game in terms of performance using a repeatable methodology. NFL teams have taken our gradings and run them alongside those of their positional coaches rating their own team and found them to be completely valid in most areas. This isn’t sabermetrics for football as some people believe — we are absolutely not trying to rate an offensive line based on how many sacks they allow (which may work if your target audience think the Dukes of Hazard is intellectually stimulating TV) — this is performance based scouting.

[Geving]

Have to agree with SteelerProphet and berad here. Stats CAN be useful, and are definitely interesting to look at. But like they've said, they are subjective, and there are so many factors that come in to play that it isn't as useful as a lot of people on this board seem to think they are. 

[gabefergy]

ok first of all whats this 99% mularky......like that's something anyone could know or prove, and sounds like exaggerated nonsense

 

and no its not easy....because as ive stated for one ben gets sacked a lot due to how he plays....if the o-line holds for 8 seconds but ben still gets sacked that's not the o-lines fault.....but PFF would say "oh that was a sack, big old negative there" its all subjective

OK, Ben gets sacked a lot. There is blame to go to multiple players for the most part, and that is taken into account. If a QB runs into a sack or holds onto the ball too long, the QB is graded negatively. If the QB takes a sack because the OL or RB misses a block the other player is graded poorly. It's not rocket science. There is some subjectivity, but their mehtodolgy and grading scales don't change from player to player. It's repeatable and everyone is going up against the same standards.

[berad]

From the PFF website:

So it's still subjective?

[SteelersProphet]

OK, Ben gets sacked a lot. There is blame to go to multiple players for the most part, and that is taken into account. If a QB runs into a sack or holds onto the ball too long, the QB is graded negatively. If the QB takes a sack because the OL or RB misses a block the other player is graded poorly. It's not rocket science. There is some subjectivity, but their mehtodolgy and grading scales don't change from player to player. It's repeatable and everyone is going up against the same standards.

yea but who decides if the QB ran into the sack....or if the guard missed his man. or it was supposed to be a run....but the running back did the wrong thing and the line let a guy go that they thought wouldn't matter but he sacks the QB..i could go on and on

 

and that decision they make is their opinion...

[gabefergy]

yea but who decides if the QB ran into the sack....or if the guard missed his man. or it was supposed to be a run....but the running back did the wrong thing and the line let a guy go that they thought wouldn't matter but he sacks the QB..i could go on and on

 

and that decision they make is their opinion...

It's not opinion if they use the same methodology. What you think the big bad meanies at PFF are out to get your precious Maurkice Pouncey?

[SteelersProphet]

It's not opinion if they use the same methodology. What you think the big bad meanies at PFF are out to get your precious Maurkice Pouncey?

 

I think they are wrong about him......as do a lot of other people

 

now do I think they are horrible no...I just don't agree with their assessment of him

[SecretAgentMan]

It's not opinion if they use the same methodology. What you think the big bad meanies at PFF are out to get your precious Maurkice Pouncey?

Yes. They are out to get MY precious Pouncey :P

[gabefergy]

I think they are wrong about him......as do a lot of other people

 

now do I think they are horrible no...I just don't agree with their assessment of him

Well you are free to your opinion, but I doubt you are a trained professional that has watched every single play Pouncey made in excruciating detail. Even if you did, your opinion would be biased because you are a fan.

[Dubs]

It's not opinion if they use the same methodology. What you think the big bad meanies at PFF are out to get your precious Maurkice Pouncey?

I really dont want to get into this but I must say all methodologies are subjective even if they are based in numbers or quantifiable 'facts'...This really is starting to get into a philosophical underpinning debate about positivism and social constructionist thought...with some believing fact or truth can be found (PFF believers of fact) and others who think everything is a representation or relational (PFF questioners)

[GrimCoconut]

I don't know about all this stuff about Pouncey and stats. All I know is what I see and read. I do watch more than one Steelers game a year or even three if we make the playoffs and they do as well. I like Pouncey and think he's got a promising career but I feel like he's always nicked up and just doesn't look like he dominates players as I think Myers, Kalil, Wisniewski, Mack and Mangold do.I'm not sure he's a top 5 center but I'd put him in the top 10. He's a good player. My perception of him is that he's always hurt. It could be a wrong perception because I don't know all these things. I'd have to research it and I just don't have time for that lol.

[codizzle]

The only Steeler more overrated than Pouncey is hairball...

As you were gentlemen

[Moderator 3]

Is this still about the teams as they stand or is it now the usual AFC North battle?

[GrimCoconut]

The only Steeler more overrated than Pouncey is hairball...

As you were gentlemen

I'm not sure what qualifies as overrated but if you're arguing he's a top 2 center then I'd say overrated. I'd even say he's overrated as a top 5 center though I find that more favorable. I do think he's a top 10 center. Not sure where he falls.

[GrimCoconut]

Is this still about the teams as they stand or is it now the usual AFC North battle?

Lol that's a good question.

[codizzle]

Is this still about the teams as they stand or is it now the usual AFC North battle?

No idea

[gabefergy]

I'm not sure what qualifies as overrated but if you're arguing he's a top 2 center then I'd say overrated. I'd even say he's overrated as a top 5 center though I find that more favorable. I do think he's a top 10 center. Not sure where he falls.

See I never said Pouncey was bad either, just that he isnt a top center. I would put a lot of centers ahead of him just like you. He is probably borderline top 10, and he is still young so he can get better. The fact is there are a lot of good centers in the league right now and Pouncey has more name recognition and a higher draft position than most which is why he is often talked about among the best. His performance just hasnt lived up to that billing IMO. 

[SteelersProphet]

I don't know about all this stuff about Pouncey and stats. All I know is what I see and read. I do watch more than one Steelers game a year or even three if we make the playoffs and they do as well. I like Pouncey and think he's got a promising career but I feel like he's always nicked up and just doesn't look like he dominates players as I think Myers, Kalil, Wisniewski, Mack and Mangold do.I'm not sure he's a top 5 center but I'd put him in the top 10. He's a good player. My perception of him is that he's always hurt. It could be a wrong perception because I don't know all these things. I'd have to research it and I just don't have time for that lol.

 

he has only missed three games in his career........so he is not always banged up....he has that reputation because he missed the superbowl against greenbay that was talked about a lot.......Wisniewski is more injury prone than Pouncey is

 

 

See I never said Pouncey was bad either, just that he isnt a top center. I would put a lot of centers ahead of him just like you. He is probably borderline top 10, and he is still young so he can get better. The fact is there are a lot of good centers in the league right now and Pouncey has more name recognition and a higher draft position than most which is why he is often talked about among the best. His performance just hasnt lived up to that billing IMO. 

don't you mean in PFF's opinion........you have no information outside of that sites opinion

[GrimCoconut]

he has only missed three games in his career........so he is not always banged up....he has that reputation because he missed the superbowl against greenbay that was talked about a lot.......Wisniewski is more injury prone than Pouncey is

 

 

don't you mean in PFF's opinion........you have no information outside of that sites opinion

As I said, that's my perception. I think my major problem with your entire argument is you're using the Pro Bowl and mass-media appeal as an indication of Pouncey's recognized dominance yet seem to discredit PFF. I could care less about PFF. I like their stats and they're neat but I won't base an argument off of them. I do think it's entirely hypocritical of you to denounce PFF yet emphasize the NFL & other media outlets, yet then you say Big Ben is underrated by these same people. That's my issue here. If you simply stuck with the facts and your opinion and left out the opinion of others as a vindication for yours, then  I'd have no issue with anything you're saying. 

 

Also, if you're using games missed as a measurement for durability, I find it very questionable that you would label Wisniewski below Pouncey, as he's missed one game in his NFL career compared to your admission of three for Pouncey.

[SteelersProphet]

As I said, that's my perception. I think my major problem with your entire argument is you're using the Pro Bowl and mass-media appeal as an indication of Pouncey's recognized dominance yet seem to discredit PFF. I could care less about PFF. I like their stats and they're neat but I won't base an argument off of them. I do think it's entirely hypocritical of you to denounce PFF yet emphasize the NFL & other media outlets, yet then you say Big Ben is underrated by these same people. That's my issue here. If you simply stuck with the facts and your opinion and left out the opinion of others as a vindication for yours, then  I'd have no issue with anything you're saying. 

well then you misunderstood what im saying....im not using media outlets as a basis for my opinion.....that's what he is doing....im merely saying that my opinion isn't unique to me......ive given reasons I think what I think that come from me watching football......and me quoting those other people is just to counter balance his dependence on what other people think since he gets all his information from reading a site

[SecretAgentMan]

My thread... My beautiful beautiful thread

[GrimCoconut]

My thread... My beautiful beautiful thread

Well, perhaps you should post some more. I'm waiting. Lol. 

[SecretAgentMan]

Well, perhaps you should post some more. I'm waiting. Lol.

Only two a day lol.

[SteelersProphet]

Also, if you're using games missed as a measurement for durability, I find it very questionable that you would label Wisniewski below Pouncey, as he's missed one game in his NFL career compared to your admission of three for Pouncey.

now your putting words in my mouth.......all I ment was that they both aren't injury prone.....but wisniewski has had a more seriouse injury than pouncey's but they both are fine

[GrimCoconut]

Prestige Worldwide

Offense

QB: NEED
RB: Alfred Morris Power back. While very good, you should have a change of pace guy
FB: NEED
WR1: Calvin Johnson. Best WR in the NFL. But you should've taken a QB
WR2: Brandon Marshall Top 5 WR. Makes a deadly duo
WR3: Robert Woods Unproven, but he has a very high ceiling
TE: Brent Celek. Could do better
LT: Joe Staley. All around good. Very good pick
LG: Justin Blalock. Solid guard
C: Will Montgomery. Interesting pick. He could benefit from playing with RG3. This is more of a wildcard
RG: NEED
RT: David Stewart. Good RT

4-3 Base Defense

DE: Adrian Clayborn. Coming off of injury, but he has a nice ceiling
DT: Randy Starks. Overrated, but is a very good pro bowl lineman
DT: Paul Soliai Great NT.
DE: Derrick Morgan. Jack of all trades master of none. He's a very good end

WLB: Jerrell Freeman. Very good LB. could grown into a pro bowler
MLB: Pat Angerer. Good LB. A little overrated in my mind, but in a 4-3 he should excel.
SLB: Dannell Ellerbe. Good pick, but he's not good enough in coverage to be a good 4-3 OLB IMO

CB: Charles Tillman. All pro
CB: NEED
FS: Dashon Goldson Overrated due to good pass rush, but he's good in coverage and a hard hitter
SS: Danieal Manning. Not the best in coverage but he's solid in all of the aspects in his game

Note: BC NFLfan123 used to own this team, and he was second in line, so T3hRavens team goes 2nd

I don't think Morris is a powerback at all, personally. Celek is a great player. Not a big fan of Montgomery for where he took him, but I like Monty. Stewart is a beast but he is coming off of a broken leg, I believe. Lol. How is Starks overrated? Why is Ellerbe a bad pick if he's playing SAM? His coverage isn't as great of a concern as a SAM. I think Freeman should be the MIKE & Angerer the WILL based on this. Manning is a very good player. 

 

I'd like to see you not use the terms "overrated" or "underrated" because I think these are a bit too subjective. I realize this is entirely subjective, but your opinion on whether the player is hyped or not shouldn't play a role here, IMO.

[gabefergy]

he has only missed three games in his career........so he is not always banged up....he has that reputation because he missed the superbowl against greenbay that was talked about a lot.......Wisniewski is more injury prone than Pouncey is

 

 

don't you mean in PFF's opinion........you have no information outside of that sites opinion

I've been watching football for 20+ years and only recently started using PFF. I am quite knowledgable about the game, but if I just give you my opinion what weight does that have? The fact that my opinion is beared out by a reputable business whose job it is to grade football players just further validates my opinion.