Espn Poll

[Ravnet]

[quote name='Mahatma_Sloth' post='98071' date='Dec 4 2008, 03:13 AM']correct me if im wrong but dosent flacco only have 3 more int than ryan and after playing more higher ranked ds? also isnt flacco leading the nfl in passer rateing over the last half of the season thus far? dosent flacco have more 40+ yd completions?

what do you think would happen if ryan had to play the titans giants cowboys and the stealers twice..... thats the number one d twice[/quote]

Except that we have yet to play the Cowboys/Steelers X2.

[Ravnet]

[quote name='Bullrush' post='98050' date='Dec 4 2008, 12:02 AM']Having a weak arm and slow feet does not automatically mean you're the next Peyton Manning. If that makes Ryan the next Peyton Manning then Flacco must be the next Steve Young or John Elway and i'll take both of those guys over Manning.

And i guess it must be coincidence that the one time Ryan played a top 5 defense he got absolutely shredded. People are more impressed with his performances against the worst defenses in football. After Sundays game Flacco will have played 5 (!) out of the top 7 defenses in 12 games. That's a ridiculous number. Meanwhile Ryan gets to play the worst defenses in football on a weekly basis and people are surprised with the way he handles them, yeah, really impressive. Put Pittsburgh, our defense or the Giants on Atlanta's schedule and then let's talk about his pocket presence again.[/quote]

Flacco hasn't exactly impressed against stout defenses either.

Pittsburgh - 144 Yards, 1 TD, 1 TO that essentially lost us the game.
Tennessee - 153 Yards, 0 TD, 2 TO.
New York - 164 Yards, 1 TD, 2 TO.
Philadelphia - 138 Yards, 1 TD, 1 TO.

Three touchdowns with six interceptions in four games.

He hasn't been bad all things considered, but don't slander Ryan for not performing when Flacco hasn't done much himself.

"Meanwhile Ryan gets to play the worst defenses in football on a weekly basis"

Really? Tampa twice? Carolina twice? He faces better defenses in his own division than Flacco; we get to play Cleveland and Cincinnati a combined four times a year.

"Having a weak arm and slow feet does not automatically mean you're the next Peyton Manning."

I was trying to make the point that Flacco is only better than Ryan in terms of mobility and arm strength, and Ryan still is serviceable in both fields. Matt Ryan undoubtedly is making better reads and decisions at this point.

If anyone responds, please know that I'm partially playing Devil's advocate.

[H8R]

[quote name='Ravnet' post='98087' date='Dec 4 2008, 07:53 AM']Flacco hasn't exactly impressed against stout defenses either.

Pittsburgh - 144 Yards, 1 TD, 1 TO that essentially lost us the game.
Tennessee - 153 Yards, 0 TD, 2 TO.
New York - 164 Yards, 1 TD, 2 TO.
Philadelphia - 138 Yards, 1 TD, 1 TO.

Three touchdowns with six interceptions in four games.

He hasn't been bad all things considered, but don't slander Ryan for not performing when Flacco hasn't done much himself.

"Meanwhile Ryan gets to play the worst defenses in football on a weekly basis"

Really? Tampa twice? Carolina twice? He faces better defenses in his own division than Flacco; we get to play Cleveland and Cincinnati a combined four times a year.

"Having a weak arm and slow feet does not automatically mean you're the next Peyton Manning."

I was trying to make the point that Flacco is only better than Ryan in terms of mobility and arm strength, and Ryan still is serviceable in both fields. Matt Ryan undoubtedly is making better reads and decisions at this point.

If anyone responds, please know that I'm partially playing Devil's advocate.[/quote]


did you miss this?:

Let us look deeper:

Matt has faced 1 Top 5 defense Joe has faced 3
Matt has faced 2 Top 10 defense Joe has faced 4
Matt has faced 4 Top 15 defense Joe has faced 5
Matt has faced 6 Top 20 defense Joe has faced 7


Remaining games

Matt has 1 Top 5 Joe has 2
Matt has 2 Top 10 Joe has 3
Matt has 2 Top 10 Joe has 3
Matt has 2 Top 15 Joe has 4

It will be easier to get an idea of who had a better year once the regular season and post season have been completed (if either or both make it).

Joe has a harder road to the ROTY IMO. Joe has faced the 26th worst defense, Matt has faced the 32nd Joe has faced/will face the number 1(twice) defense Matt has faced/will face the number 4(twice).
Matt has faced / will face 8 teams with a defense 20 or worse. Joe has/will face 6

It's clear that if Joe finishes with similar numbers he should get it out of the two.

[#1falconfan]

Matt also plays in a tougher division, but I do believe that Flacco will be good for you guys. I am not here to bash Joe, but to have a good debate.

[Sub-Zero]

dude that sig is sweet!

[neepo13]

[quote name='Ravnet' post='98087' date='Dec 4 2008, 07:53 AM']Flacco hasn't exactly impressed against stout defenses either.

Pittsburgh - 144 Yards, 1 TD, 1 TO that essentially lost us the game.
Tennessee - 153 Yards, 0 TD, 2 TO.
New York - 164 Yards, 1 TD, 2 TO.
Philadelphia - 138 Yards, 1 TD, 1 TO.

Three touchdowns with six interceptions in four games.

He hasn't been bad all things considered, but don't slander Ryan for not performing when Flacco hasn't done much himself.

"Meanwhile Ryan gets to play the worst defenses in football on a weekly basis"

Really? Tampa twice? Carolina twice? He faces better defenses in his own division than Flacco; we get to play Cleveland and Cincinnati a combined four times a year.

"Having a weak arm and slow feet does not automatically mean you're the next Peyton Manning."

I was trying to make the point that Flacco is only better than Ryan in terms of mobility and arm strength, and Ryan still is serviceable in both fields. Matt Ryan undoubtedly is making better reads and decisions at this point.

If anyone responds, please know that I'm partially playing Devil's advocate.[/quote]

Flacco scored 2 td's vs. the Eagles and he didnt have a TO. A fumble only counts as a turnover, if the other team recovers.

[raven46]

[quote name='macbrak' post='97409' date='Dec 2 2008, 06:19 PM']I think this says more about how crappy the Falcons were last year then how good Ryan or Flacco are.[/quote]

your right, keep in mind Flacco was named the Offensive rookie of the month though, Maybe because he didnt play well on monday night against Pitts in primetime america doesnt like him?

[H8R]

[quote name='neepo13' post='98150' date='Dec 4 2008, 11:38 AM']Flacco scored 2 td's vs. the Eagles and he didnt have a TO. A fumble only counts as a turnover, if the other team recovers.[/quote]


Thank you Neepo. I was going to say the same darn thing!

[Bullrush]

[b]Ravnet: "Flacco hasn't exactly impressed against stout defenses either.

Pittsburgh - 144 Yards, 1 TD, 1 TO that essentially lost us the game.
Tennessee - 153 Yards, 0 TD, 2 TO.
New York - 164 Yards, 1 TD, 2 TO.
Philadelphia - 138 Yards, 1 TD, 1 TO.

Three touchdowns with six interceptions in four games."[/b]
Let's not try to turn this into a whole "TD to INT ratio" thing. It's foolish to just judge him by his stats, especially considering that you came up with wrong numbers.

1) Flacco looked very good against the Steelers on national TV. He should have finished the game with 2 TD passes but the refs ruled Mason out of bounds in the endzone, which clearly was not the case. You can even look up the thread i started right after the game, check out the pictures. Flacco played very well. Don't even try to make it sound like we lost the game because of him, that's nuts.

2) It was a bad performance by Flacco, nobody's denying that. No running game, receivers dropping balls, no pass blocking and a defense that gives up a gazillion points to the Colts. Not sure if any other QB could've looked any better.

3) He was the only bright spot on our team vs the Giants. Mason dropped a TD pass, and later he dropped another pass the Giants intercepted which ended the game for us. We had no running game and the weather was absolutely terrible. It was impossible for Flacco to make plays in the passing game since every throw that went for 10+ yards landed on the sideline. Pass blocking was terrible as well. And once again the defense gave up a gazillion points, they couldn't stop anybody. Flacco was the only one that showed up in that game.

4) Wrong numbers. Flacco actually threw 2 (Two) touchdown passes against the Eagles. And he threw for 183 yards, not 138. He finished the game with a 95 QB Rating.

[b]Ravnet: "He hasn't been bad all things considered, but don't slander Ryan for not performing when Flacco hasn't done much himself."[/b]
Flacco has proven that he can handle top 5 defenses. Ryan looked terrible the one time he played a top 5 defense, a defense that can't generate any pass rush by the way (Tampa). That's really where the argument ends. Ryan needs to prove than he can handle a top 5 defense before i put him up there with Flacco or show him the same respect. Nobody's saying he's a bad QB. He's doing a very good job, but comparing these two is like comparing a Hurricanes Safety in college football to a Safety that plays for Lane College or Hofstra. Flacco is playing top competition each week. Sure, he played some bad defenses as well, but even against the bad defenses he puts up better numbers than Ryan does. And he does the same vs good defenses. Look at the Eagles game. 2 TD's, 0 picks. Ryan 2 TD's with 2 picks, one of them in the endzone that ended the game for the Falcons. He threw another pick 6 against the Panthers (wiped out by a penalty that didn't even affect the play).

[b]Ravnet: "Really? Tampa twice? Carolina twice? He faces better defenses in his own division than Flacco; we get to play Cleveland and Cincinnati a combined four times a year."[/b]
He hasn't played Tampa twice, yet. He played them once and he looked terrible. Carolina is not even a top 10 defense. And you're still trying to argue with me about which one of them had a tougher schedule, which is ridiculous. I already mentioned that Flacco, after Sunday, Flacco will have played 5 of the top 7 defenses in 13 games. Ryan however has only played one top 5 defense so far. Oh, and let's not forget that the worst defense Flacco played is ranked 26th (Browns). How about Ryan? He played THE worst defenses (Kansas 32, Detroit 31, Denver 28, San Diego 27). Of course his numbers are gonna look good. I think i could post a 100 QB rating against the Chiefs or the Lions defense.

[b]Ravnet: "I was trying to make the point that Flacco is only better than Ryan in terms of mobility and arm strength, and Ryan still is serviceable in both fields. Matt Ryan undoubtedly is making better reads and decisions at this point."[/b]
It's not that hard to make good reads when you're not getting pressured. I would love to see him make those good reads when he's got two double digit pass rushers coming off the edge trying to knock him out. Like Harrison & Woodley or Freeney & Mathis. The only top pass rusher Ryan has faced so far is Peppers and the guy is not elite anymore. It's one thing to block a great DE, you can do that. Peppers has been shut down numerous times already. It's another thing to try to block 2 pro bowl pass rushers at the same time which is just not possible. And Ryan hasn't seen that yet.

Let's just leave it at that. Both guys are doing well. Ryan is Atlanta's franchise QB and Flacco is our franchise QB. Ryan at some point will make Pro Bowls for them, Flacco will make Pro Bowls for us, hopefully. I'm not gonna argue anymore about who the better QB is or which one of the two faced tougher defenses. To me it's Flacco, in both cases. If anybody disagrees then that's fine. We could argue for the next decade.

[H8R]

Great post Bullrush... I think we need to have a "Thanks" tab next to multi quotes!

[Ravnet]

Bullrush, when I get home, I'll respond to your post. I hope that some of you, by now, realize that I just like to play both sides of the story. If this thread had been all over Ryan, I'd adamantly support Flacco.

[Bmore410_REED]

i have to admit i wanted his ****** out of the game as soon as possible when we played the rams.i went to the game and i was pissed i payed 200 bucks for really good seats to watch flacco and not smith...but now seeing him and putting trust in him...he put in the numbers...we had a terrible offense last year..i know ravens cant for get that..i think flacco has changed the ravens more that matt has changed the falcons.. yeah ryan has more yards and wow one more completion....but flacco has got way better..ryan started off better but flacco is better now...he not that dumb ****** before that lead him up to 200 yards lost in sacks that dont happen no more..thats why he has double the amount of rushing first downs as ryan.he has 2 rushing TD's..and umm...go ravens..o yeah and they damn sure wouldnt beat us thats for damn sure

[Ravnet]

[quote name='Bmore410_REED' post='98243' date='Dec 4 2008, 02:54 PM']i have to admit i wanted his ****** out of the game as soon as possible when we played the rams.i went to the game and i was pissed i payed 200 bucks for really good seats to watch flacco and not smith...but now seeing him and putting trust in him...he put in the numbers...we had a terrible offense last year..i know ravens cant for get that..i think flacco has changed the ravens more that matt has changed the falcons.. yeah ryan has more yards and wow one more completion....but flacco has got way better..ryan started off better but flacco is better now...he not that dumb ****** before that lead him up to 200 yards lost in sacks that dont happen no more..thats why he has double the amount of rushing first downs as ryan.he has 2 rushing TD's..and umm...go ravens..o yeah and they damn sure wouldnt beat us thats for damn sure[/quote]

Welcome to the board.

[rayraysauce]

of course we gona think Joe Flacco is better we are in a freaking ravens forum!!!

Its just that besides Maryland the other 49 states think Matt Ryan is better. People are not looking at what kind of defenses they face, they are only looking at stats in which Matt Ryan has the advantage. He is freaking 8th in the league in Passer rating

[#1falconfan]

[quote name='Bullrush' post='98232' date='Dec 4 2008, 02:31 PM'][b]Ravnet: "Flacco hasn't exactly impressed against stout defenses either.

Pittsburgh - 144 Yards, 1 TD, 1 TO that essentially lost us the game.
Tennessee - 153 Yards, 0 TD, 2 TO.
New York - 164 Yards, 1 TD, 2 TO.
Philadelphia - 138 Yards, 1 TD, 1 TO.

Three touchdowns with six interceptions in four games."[/b]
Let's not try to turn this into a whole "TD to INT ratio" thing. It's foolish to just judge him by his stats, especially considering that you came up with wrong numbers.

1) Flacco looked very good against the Steelers on national TV. He should have finished the game with 2 TD passes but the refs ruled Mason out of bounds in the endzone, which clearly was not the case. You can even look up the thread i started right after the game, check out the pictures. Flacco played very well. Don't even try to make it sound like we lost the game because of him, that's nuts.

2) It was a bad performance by Flacco, nobody's denying that. No running game, receivers dropping balls, no pass blocking and a defense that gives up a gazillion points to the Colts. Not sure if any other QB could've looked any better.

3) He was the only bright spot on our team vs the Giants. Mason dropped a TD pass, and later he dropped another pass the Giants intercepted which ended the game for us. We had no running game and the weather was absolutely terrible. It was impossible for Flacco to make plays in the passing game since every throw that went for 10+ yards landed on the sideline. Pass blocking was terrible as well. And once again the defense gave up a gazillion points, they couldn't stop anybody. Flacco was the only one that showed up in that game.

4) Wrong numbers. Flacco actually threw 2 (Two) touchdown passes against the Eagles. And he threw for 183 yards, not 138. He finished the game with a 95 QB Rating.

[b]Ravnet: "He hasn't been bad all things considered, but don't slander Ryan for not performing when Flacco hasn't done much himself."[/b]
Flacco has proven that he can handle top 5 defenses. Ryan looked terrible the one time he played a top 5 defense, a defense that can't generate any pass rush by the way (Tampa). That's really where the argument ends. Ryan needs to prove than he can handle a top 5 defense before i put him up there with Flacco or show him the same respect. Nobody's saying he's a bad QB. He's doing a very good job, but comparing these two is like comparing a Hurricanes Safety in college football to a Safety that plays for Lane College or Hofstra. Flacco is playing top competition each week. Sure, he played some bad defenses as well, but even against the bad defenses he puts up better numbers than Ryan does. And he does the same vs good defenses. Look at the Eagles game. 2 TD's, 0 picks. Ryan 2 TD's with 2 picks, one of them in the endzone that ended the game for the Falcons. He threw another pick 6 against the Panthers (wiped out by a penalty that didn't even affect the play).

[b]Ravnet: "Really? Tampa twice? Carolina twice? He faces better defenses in his own division than Flacco; we get to play Cleveland and Cincinnati a combined four times a year."[/b]
He hasn't played Tampa twice, yet. He played them once and he looked terrible. Carolina is not even a top 10 defense. And you're still trying to argue with me about which one of them had a tougher schedule, which is ridiculous. I already mentioned that Flacco, after Sunday, Flacco will have played 5 of the top 7 defenses in 13 games. Ryan however has only played one top 5 defense so far. Oh, and let's not forget that the worst defense Flacco played is ranked 26th (Browns). How about Ryan? He played THE worst defenses (Kansas 32, Detroit 31, Denver 28, San Diego 27). Of course his numbers are gonna look good. I think i could post a 100 QB rating against the Chiefs or the Lions defense.

[b]Ravnet: "I was trying to make the point that Flacco is only better than Ryan in terms of mobility and arm strength, and Ryan still is serviceable in both fields. Matt Ryan undoubtedly is making better reads and decisions at this point."[/b]
It's not that hard to make good reads when you're not getting pressured. I would love to see him make those good reads when he's got two double digit pass rushers coming off the edge trying to knock him out. Like Harrison & Woodley or Freeney & Mathis. The only top pass rusher Ryan has faced so far is Peppers and the guy is not elite anymore. It's one thing to block a great DE, you can do that. Peppers has been shut down numerous times already. It's another thing to try to block 2 pro bowl pass rushers at the same time which is just not possible. And Ryan hasn't seen that yet.

Let's just leave it at that. Both guys are doing well. Ryan is Atlanta's franchise QB and Flacco is our franchise QB. Ryan at some point will make Pro Bowls for them, Flacco will make Pro Bowls for us, hopefully. I'm not gonna argue anymore about who the better QB is or which one of the two faced tougher defenses. To me it's Flacco, in both cases. If anybody disagrees then that's fine. We could argue for the next decade.[/quote]
Well I wouldn't say that Ryan has not faced a team without a pass rush when Carolina, Tampa, Philadelphia, Chicago, New Orleans, even Oakland is in the top 15 in sacks. The Tampa game was week 2 and his first road game. The NFC South is a way tougher division than the AFC North. LOL if you think that Peppers is washed up.

[TDWII]

I can't vouch for Flacco, I can only give as objective a viewpoint on Ryan as I can...

1) One stat that is being completely overlooked in the comparison is YPA. Ryan is at 7.88, Flacco 6.88. I point this out as important because even a difference in 1 yard in this stat shows a much greater ability to push the ball downfield consistently. Again, this is taking a stat simply at face value, but IMO - it's a key differentiator when evaluating not just Ryan/Flacco, but any QB. Ryan has been able to push the ball downfield, anywhere on the field - whether it be via the long ball or intermidiate routes, or the sideline out. I know Flacco has superior arm strength, but Ryan can make any throw necessary. I saw on one of these threads a comparison to Chad Pennington. Come on...

2) I think at the end of the day, you can only play the schedule that's laid out for you. While Flacco's has been more difficult (as has been mentioned Flacco's averages out to 11th - Ryan's 17th), then let's compare what those figures are and what on average Flacco & Ryan produce to those numbers.

The 11th ranked pass defense gives up 200 net passing yards/game: Flacco accounts for 172.33 yards meaning that his net against the level of competition he faces is 86.16% of their average production.

The 17th ranked pass defense gives up 215.5 net passing yards/game: Ryan accounts for 212.08 yards meaning that his net against the level of competition he faces is 98.41% of their average production.

So even when you take into account the difference in their levels of competition, Ryan is still outproducing Flacco.

3) I do think Ryan has work to do when he faces high pressure defenses. The one he did face (Philadelphia) was able to get him to make some bad throws. But it does appear that Flacco has had similar difficulties, he's just had more defenses to face that excel at pressuring the QB. But I would expect these issues from a rookie QB no matter how well they are playing. I expect Ryan & Flacco to both refine this aspect of their games.

4) When comparing situations, unless you were here, you simply don't understand the depths and despair the Falcons organization had sunk to. I don't know what the expectations were for the Ravens this season, but for the Falcons - The Sporting News predicted we'd win 1 game. Sports Illustrated picked us to win 2 games. We're talking about pre-season publications that rarely dip below the 4 win prediction or above the 12 win prediction when forecasting seasons. The point is that while the Ravens are a surprise team as well, the turnaround the Falcons are in the midst of is simply stunning. Even it's own fan base is having difficulty coming to grips with the swiftness of the turnaround. Want to see something funny? Check out the ESPN expert predictions thread. Want to know how many times Golic has picked us to win a game this season? Once. One time out of 11 chances he's picked the Falcons to win - Kansas City. He even picked Oakland against us.

So what you have to realize is that while the acquisition of Michael Turner and a great draft have also been essential to our turnaround, quite simply put, with Chris Redman at QB - we'd be 4-8 at best.

This isn't a bash Joe Flacco post. What he's doing is great. I kind of compare this situation a bit to the 1994 Best Picture Oscar race. That year, Forrest Gump, Pulp Fiction and The Shawshank Redemption all vied for the title. Any other year, Pulp Fiction or Shawshank would have been shoe-ins for victory. Just turns out, the timing was bad - Fiction & Shawshank ran into a buzzsaw. At the end of the day though, there all great and at the end of the day, both Baltimore and Atlanta are being hailed as franchises who solved their QB problem hopefully for the next decade plus and that's what really counts.

[PuRock]

Can we please stop with the Flacco vs Ryan thing already??? Both Sides. Why are we comparing them before their rookie seasons are even over? Let's come back to this topic in 12 years. I'm sure the clear winner will be apparent. Let's stop with the whip it out and compare campain.

[RoastBeeph]

Ryan is clearly the ROY...the stats speak for themselves.

[TDWII]

[quote name='PuRock' post='98269' date='Dec 4 2008, 04:36 PM']Why are we comparing them before their rookie seasons are even over?[/quote]

That's what the topic asked...

[thewarden86]

I wouldn't get too excited over this if I were you guys. Both rookies are excellent prospects and will likely both be winners for their team in the future (in fact, now). I'd take either one of them if I were building a team.
Also, history says that both of them will likely tank out when the playoffs start, so don't be all bumbed out if that should happen either.