"Who Stays and Who Goes?" - Wide Receiver Edition

[GrimCoconut]

Other then the colts game, what game can you say he choked in? I understand the confidence thing, but i think that's more about the injuries and proving himself. Not so much about lack of confidence in his abilities. I think we agree on that?

 

But I don't see where Doss chokes in games and I definitely don't see the bad hands thing(i know you didn't say that). I see a guy who was the #4 WR and was targeted 18 times during the regular season. Most of those 18 times were 9 routes and deep patterns outside the numbers. That's not his game, but again we are talking about Cam running the show. On plays were he was allowed to work towards the middle of the field vs sub packages he showed what he can do imo. Again I keep going to this brief Highlight video because that's all we really have to go on, but look at all his catches. If you notice most of his catches were either him working towards the middle or he started inside the numbers. It's not hard to see that this is the way the guys needs to be used, but Cam didn't do it often. When exactly would you say he's choked?

I really was thinking of the Colts game. That's honestly the only time he's really seen significant playing time. I probably should've said "choked in the Colts game" but I was just generalizing. 

 

I've edited my original post to probably better reflect my opinion.

[Ravensfan23]

I agree. I think he needs to get some serious reps before he gets written off. I imagine that it's very difficult to go into a playoff game and have that much pressure with so little reps throughout the year. But as you said, it's mental. Someone said that Q knew he was the man. I think Doss needs to know he's going to get so many targets a game as well.

'
Joe said that.

On if there has been too much made of people talking about this team needing another veteran wide receiver: “I haven’t heard too much about all that, but I’m excited about who we have. I like the idea of having guys that we’ve had, we’ve drafted here or we’ve picked up here, and grooming them and getting those guys to become great wide receivers. They definitely have the talent to do it; I think we just need to get them some reps. And when I say reps, I mean game time reps, so they’re confidence can take off. One of the biggest things about Anquan [Boldin] is that he knew he was the man. So, when he went out there, he didn’t care what happened. He was the man. You don’t realize how much that helps out your play and your team’s play. And when these young guys can get to the point where they’re out there and their attitude is that, they have all the ability in the world, and I feel very confident with those guys.”

I agree 100% that ALL of these guys need game reps before you can write them off. For whatever reason the concept of "player development" has been lost in the Ravens nation. There is no such thing as player development for our fans. You either go out and prove you are a star with the first opportunity you get or be labeled a "bust" "bum" "damaged goods" or people are just tried of you.

The idea of anything or anyone developing is to allow them to make mistakes and improve upon them. Sometimes those mistakes happen in practice, some times they happen in games. Doss' drop passes, Reeds fumbles, Thompson running his routes short of the first down on 3rd downs. But that's what developing is all about. As Flacco said all of these guys have the talent, but the experience doesn't come until you get "game reps" and when you are a team pushing to a Super Bowl before your window closes for vets, often times young guys don't get those game reps because the team trust veterans more.

I think it is one of the most foolish things to write guys off that haven't even gotten a chance to prove anything. They are young guys who you expect to make mistakes and then once they make those mistakes you write them off. That doesn't make sense. I find it funny how most people bashed Cam for only targeting his #4 WR Donte Stallworth 5 times in 2010. But as a #4 WR Tandon Doss only getting limited opportunities is some type of indictment of his inability to produce. He was targeted 18 times. 7 catches, 6 first down, 1TD 1 drop and about 4 PI calls for him. In my eyes that's a guy who show be given more opportunity not written off in only his 2nd year.

[Ravensfan23]

I really was thinking of the Colts game. That's honestly the only time he's really seen significant playing time. I probably should've said "choked in the Colts game" but I was just generalizing. 

 

I've edited my original post to probably better reflect my opinion.

 

Yea I'll say he came up really short in the Colts games, but people seem to forget that it was the guys first ever playoff game. That's a huge moment. Hell we saw Ray Rice fumble twice in the same game and those nearly cost us the game. Doss' drops just forced us to settle for 3 instead of 7 points.

 

Think about some other guys performances in the biggest game of their career as young players. Flacco's first AFC Championship game as a rookie. He was completely in over his head. But you don't write him off. T.O had like 3 drops in the NFC Championship game his rookie year against the Packers but came back with the game winning TD catch. The difference between Doss and Owens in those situations is that the 49ers gave T.O another opportunity. Doss wasn't apart of the game plan enough to get another chance. It wasn't a playoff game but Hell think of Torrey his rookie year against the Steelers. If Flacco doesn't come back to Torrey for the game winner and the lasting imagine of that game was Torrey dropping the potential winning TD, how would the perception of Torrey have changed? Would fans have written him off as a young player, I say yes they would. But he was given another shot to make a play and made it.

 

I just think it's crazy for people to write off guys in their 2nd and 3rd years. Especially when they came into the NFL as mid to late round "Developmental" players. Let the guys develop.

[GrimCoconut]

Yea I'll say he came up really short in the Colts games, but people seem to forget that it was the guys first ever playoff game. That's a huge moment. Hell we saw Ray Rice fumble twice in the same game and those nearly cost us the game. Doss' drops just forced us to settle for 3 instead of 7 points.

Think about some other guys performances in the biggest game of their career as young players. Flacco's first AFC Championship game as a rookie. He was completely in over his head. But you don't write him off. T.O had like 3 drops in the NFC Championship game his rookie year against the Packers but came back with the game winning TD catch. The difference between Doss and Owens in those situations is that the 49ers gave T.O another opportunity. Doss wasn't apart of the game plan enough to get another chance. It wasn't a playoff game but Hell think of Torrey his rookie year against the Steelers. If Flacco doesn't come back to Torrey for the game winner and the lasting imagine of that game was Torrey dropping the potential winning TD, how would the perception of Torrey have changed? Would fans have written him off as a young player, I say yes they would. But he was given another shot to make a play and made it.

I just think it's crazy for people to write off guys in their 2nd and 3rd years. Especially when they came into the NFL as mid to late round "Developmental" players. Let the guys develop.

Yeah I completely agree and don't forget as you said quite a few of Doss' targets were called back because of DPI. I actually like that to an extent because it means that the DB was a bit nervous in his coverage. It makes me wonder what Doss can do in a bigger role.

Btw I totally misread rmw10 comment about Boldin. Lol. Do you remember Boldin saying that Doss would make us forget Boldin when he's gone?

[CARavensFan]

I really was thinking of the Colts game. That's honestly the only time he's really seen significant playing time. I probably should've said "choked in the Colts game" but I was just generalizing.

I've edited my original post to probably better reflect my opinion.

I don't remember, but did Doss get any playing time in the Bengals game to end the year? I know that Reed and Deonte did.

I'm going to have to go back and watch that game again to see the WRs we used and how they were used under Caldwell.

[5aiah]

I don't get the Doss doesn't have hands argument. He had 1 bad game. Reports are that he is catching everything in camp. Obviously that needs to translate to games, and I don't think he's been given a true opportunity to do that yet.
 

Again, didn't say that either. Said he was inconsistent in regards to his hands and route running and he doesn't compare to Boldin in either regard, yet. I haven't seen anyone in this thread say his hands were bad but they just aren't top of the line like Boldin. Also for his highlights you really need to check what he did every time he was in the game at Receiver. Was he running his routes lazy at times(an old habit of his) was he able to get free from the defender, how does he do in press coverage, and what corners was he up against? That is what we need to be looking at to fully get a hold on him. I actually think this could be his breakout season(as a limited WR3) given the opportunities and would be greatly annoyed if we go after a Free Agent. That being said my original post was a hypothetical scenario in which Mellette could have a shot at taking his job.

 

Yeah, but Doss was being talked about as having the hands of Boldin before this season. All of a sudden, he's being labeled with the "stone hands" label. 

 

When it comes to Tandon Doss, I think a lot of his issues are the same as Jimmy Smith--confidence. I don't want to make this a CB thread, so I'll make a quick comparison real fast here by saying that both these players seem to have huge mental errors. I think these mental errors are their biggest issues. Doss looked fantastic in those preseason games. I remember people ready to trade Boldin then, lol. Then all of a sudden he doesn't have a good rookie year and is held back by not being ready for the offense in addition to injuries. Then the next year, he comes back and he has all this hype because Torrey was  a big surprise and he falls flat on his face, still struggles, and now he drops balls. 

 

 The "stone hands" thing is an exaggeration just like him "having the hands of Boldin". They are both extreme. Thing is confidence is such a huge part of both of those positions. Also real quick, both of those two need to have good seasons with no confidence or injury excuses. Its getting old. Starting to wonder about both of their durability. Also Mellette needs to work on his quickness and route running, but he is faster than Doss(even with an added 10 pounds) but we can agree to disagree.  What is more important is how both of them handle press coverage because Mellette played against kids and Doss wasn't challenged in college just because of his size and hasn't played much thus far in the NFL. Also would like to know how both of them block as well, if they want to have the right to call themselves fill ins for Boldin they need to step it up with the downfield blocks. If the reports of Doss being quicker faster and playing with more confidence is true then he could challenge for WR2 easy. But if its just offseason overhype(which happens so much) then I won't be surprised.

 

Other then the colts game, what game can you say he choked in? I understand the confidence thing, but i think that's more about the injuries and proving himself. Not so much about lack of confidence in his abilities. I think we agree on that?

It's not so much as its him choking but just not showing up at times. Also this thread should focusing on what you are talking about. Which is what he was doing on said plays and the times he was targeted. You seem to know what's what, is there a place I can see video on all his targets just to start or do I need to watch game rewind?

[ravensdan]

So doss had a grand total of 18 targets last yr. he caught 7 of those. He is actually only credited with 2 drops. One against Oakland and one vs Pitt. His most yardage was one 39 yard pass caught against Cleveland. He had one td @houston. His most targets were 4 in the home Denver game where he caught 2 for 28 yards. The Indy game he went 0/3.
His largest snap counts were:
27/65 vs oak
22/95 @ sd
31/66 vs den

6/59 vs Indy

[Ravensfan23]

Again, didn't say that either. Said he was inconsistent in regards to his hands and route running and he doesn't compare to Boldin in either regard, yet. I haven't seen anyone in this thread say his hands were bad but they just aren't top of the line like Boldin. Also for his highlights you really need to check what he did every time he was in the game at Receiver. Was he running his routes lazy at times(an old habit of his) was he able to get free from the defender, how does he do in press coverage, and what corners was he up against? That is what we need to be looking at to fully get a hold on him. I actually think this could be his breakout season(as a limited WR3) given the opportunities and would be greatly annoyed if we go after a Free Agent. That being said my original post was a hypothetical scenario in which Mellette could have a shot at taking his job.

 

 The "stone hands" thing is an exaggeration just like him "having the hands of Boldin". They are both extreme. Thing is confidence is such a huge part of both of those positions. Also real quick, both of those two need to have good seasons with no confidence or injury excuses. Its getting old. Starting to wonder about both of their durability. Also Mellette needs to work on his quickness and route running, but he is faster than Doss(even with an added 10 pounds) but we can agree to disagree.  What is more important is how both of them handle press coverage because Mellette played against kids and Doss wasn't challenged in college just because of his size and hasn't played much thus far in the NFL. Also would like to know how both of them block as well, if they want to have the right to call themselves fill ins for Boldin they need to step it up with the downfield blocks. If the reports of Doss being quicker faster and playing with more confidence is true then he could challenge for WR2 easy. But if its just offseason overhype(which happens so much) then I won't be surprised.

 

It's not so much as its him choking but just not showing up at times. Also this thread should focusing on what you are talking about. Which is what he was doing on said plays and the times he was targeted. You seem to know what's what, is there a place I can see video on all his targets just to start or do I need to watch game rewind?

 

I would suggest Game Rewind because you'll get a all 22 view and a better ideal of the entire play. Meaning times he was targeted and times he wasn't. I agree there were times he didn't work himself free of his defender, but that's a part of developing. I don't think any of these guys can be compared to Boldin right now. Simply because Q was a first round talent for a reason. Despite his lack of speed he was ready to come into the NFL and compete at a high level from day one. Doss, Reed, DT and others were late round/UDFAs for a reason. They have strong talents and potential but need time and reps to develop in their overall game. Usually it takes a WR about 2-3 years to develop which means all of these guys are right on course. The only guy older is Reed and it's been injuries that's slowed him, not play imo.

[gabefergy]

I wish people would go back and rewatch Doss's "drops" against Indy in the WC game. Yeah he got a hand on all 3, but they were incredibly difficult catches. 2 in the EZ were rockets that are virtually impossible to catch at full extension, and the other was not a well thrown ball that Doss had to contort his body to even have a shot at.

[Ravensfan23]

I wish people would go back and rewatch Doss's "drops" against Indy in the WC game. Yeah he got a hand on all 3, but they were incredibly difficult catches. 2 in the EZ were rockets that are virtually impossible to catch at full extension, and the other was not a well thrown ball that Doss had to contort his body to even have a shot at.

 

agree 100%. Those were very tough catches. But they are catch that you expect to be made. I think people are overracting way too much. The slant pass in the endzone was the same type of pass that Boldin dropped in the Steelers playoff game. So it happens.

[admartian]

I only voted 5. :p

 

Torrey, JJ, Reed, Doss, Streeter. But if I had to choose a 6th then it'd be Mellette. I think Laquan had his chance last year, but seemingly fell out of favour.

 

Though thinking about it now, I'd place Thompson over Streeter.

[Guest Mr. Nobody]

JJ failed his conditioning test

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4239/jacoby-jones

[The Raven]

And now I am seriously concerned about the WR position. 

[easternshore97]

And now I am seriously concerned about the WR position. 

did somebody get injured?

[The Raven]

did somebody get injured?

 

Jacoby didn't pass his conditioning test, and that worries me.

[easternshore97]

Jacoby didn't pass his conditioning test, and that worries me.

That's not a big deal at all. If the time to run 2 miles is 15mins and you run it in 15:20, you go back and get it sorted out.

 

Happens to everybody in every sport. If you watch soccer, you know that while that seems like a big deal, those guys still get it done - and they are sprinting for 90mins their entire careers.

 

I don't think that speaks to whether he wants it bad enough or not. If anything, it's a swift boot in the arse and helps him and people around him in the locker room refocus

[easternshore97]

If he showed up 13lbs over his recommended playing weight, that'd be concerning.

 

I wrestled in college and we would start the year w/pre-season in September. We then start official practice halfway through October. Season starts sometime in November. We go to Thanksgiving break and miss 3 or 4 days. If you did nothing over the 3 or 4 day period, you will seriously feel like you are going to cough your lungs up on your first day back after a 3 or 4 day absence. Seriously.

 

That's why I think it's not a big deal. I could be wrong

[The Raven]

That's not a big deal at all. If the time to run 2 miles is 15mins and you run it in 15:20, you go back and get it sorted out.

 

Happens to everybody in every sport. If you watch soccer, you know that while that seems like a big deal, those guys still get it done - and they are sprinting for 90mins their entire careers.

 

I don't think that speaks to whether he wants it bad enough or not. If anything, it's a swift boot in the arse and helps him and people around him in the locker room refocus

 

Yeah, I guess it's not really a big deal just yet. 

[Ravensfan23]

Well i guess you can count Omarius Hines in the Who's Goes category. He's been waived. I doubt the guy would have made it anyway. 

[easternshore97]

Yeah, I guess it's not really a big deal just yet. 

Well, after reading about the test in the other thread, it has more reason to be concerning.

 

For certain challenges, you get your body there over a period of time. For others, it's like the 2 mile run - you go back and tweak slightly. Then for some, it's just about your nutritional intake.

 

Given that it's sprints, it sounds like one that you get your body to over a period of time. Not hitting the panic button just yet. And like I said in the other thread, if he missed it by just a few ticks, then no big deal. And if he just barely passed the first time last year, no big deal.

 

Don't know if this is where you were initially going, but better conditioning = lower concern for injuries so hopefully, he's right about on par with where he was last year timing wise and just happened to come up short this time

[scrock]

Does anyone really think that Jacoby will be the #2 WR? I don't think he has good enough hands and he's never been able to be consistent enough, Houston gave him a chance for a few years and he couldn't handle it, he's a standout special teamer and a decent #3 WR but that's his ceiling until he improves his hands...if thats possible, also I dont believe his route running is anything special. 

 

To me if one of the young WRs doesn't step up and break out to take the job from Jacoby as #2 then Ozzie may make his move to acquire a veteran talent by trade or free agency. Jacoby will still see plenty of time on offense, he may even start out wide but as far as offensive reps go he wont receive as much as Torrey, Deonte, Doss, ??....Deonte is my pick to grab the #2/3 spot if we dont acquire a WR..

 

I think we have the talent on the team they just need a chance to produce...but Jacoby as a legit #2? no

[The Raven]

Does anyone really think that Jacoby will be the #2 WR? I don't think he has good enough hands and he's never been able to be consistent enough, Houston gave him a chance for a few years and he couldn't handle it, he's a standout special teamer and a decent #3 WR but that's his ceiling until he improves his hands...if thats possible, also I dont believe his route running is anything special. 

 

To me if one of the young WRs doesn't step up and break out to take the job from Jacoby as #2 then Ozzie may make his move to acquire a veteran talent by trade or free agency. Jacoby will still see plenty of time on offense, he may even start out wide but as far as offensive reps go he wont receive as much as Torrey, Deonte, Doss, ??....Deonte is my pick to grab the #2/3 spot if we dont acquire a WR..

 

I think we have the talent on the team they just need a chance to produce...but Jacoby as a legit #2? no

 

If you ask me, he doesn't have the hands or route running to be a number two. He's a number three, and a deep threat number three at that. He has a limited route tree. I don't trust him going over the middle or even running third down curls.

[GrimCoconut]

Does anyone really think that Jacoby will be the #2 WR? I don't think he has good enough hands and he's never been able to be consistent enough, Houston gave him a chance for a few years and he couldn't handle it, he's a standout special teamer and a decent #3 WR but that's his ceiling until he improves his hands...if thats possible, also I dont believe his route running is anything special. 

 

To me if one of the young WRs doesn't step up and break out to take the job from Jacoby as #2 then Ozzie may make his move to acquire a veteran talent by trade or free agency. Jacoby will still see plenty of time on offense, he may even start out wide but as far as offensive reps go he wont receive as much as Torrey, Deonte, Doss, ??....Deonte is my pick to grab the #2/3 spot if we dont acquire a WR..

 

I think we have the talent on the team they just need a chance to produce...but Jacoby as a legit #2? no

No, I don't. I think JJ will be mostly rotated between KR/PR & WR. I see him being the primary backup to Torrey, however. I also see him being used quite a bit when we go 3WR sets built on speed. He has that playmaking ability but his hands and routes are suspect. He's not horrible. He's actually quite good but he's good at being used in rotation not in a primary role. I think he'll struggle if he's used as a #2. 

[CARavensFan]

No, I don't. I think JJ will be mostly rotated between KR/PR & WR. I see him being the primary backup to Torrey, however. I also see him being used quite a bit when we go 3WR sets built on speed. He has that playmaking ability but his hands and routes are suspect. He's not horrible. He's actually quite good but he's good at being used in rotation not in a primary role. I think he'll struggle if he's used as a #2.

I don't know if I would see him as the primary backup to Torrey, if Doss takes the No. 2 slot and we have Reed in the slot I could see Deonte as the backup to Torrey.

[blackbird29]

Not sure if this is out there anywhere else but does anyone have any thoughts on what our WR depth chart will be? I see it as Smith, Jones, Doss as the front three. Then Thompson and Streeter? Not sure if that is right but I don't see any other options. Does anyone have anything different?

[Guest Mr. Nobody]

there's been quite some discussion about the WRs this offseason, most recent here http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/53337-who-stays-and-who-goes-wide-receiver-edition/

[Edgar]

Not sure if this is out there anywhere else but does anyone have any thoughts on what our WR depth chart will be? I see it as Smith, Jones, Doss as the front three. Then Thompson and Streeter? Not sure if that is right but I don't see any other options. Does anyone have anything different?

 The more I see of Doss from last year, the less convinced I am. He was on the field a lot last year. He is usually on the outside of a given play with a db draped all over him. He appears to be thinking about his routes still instead of just running them and it seems to me he should be a little further along by now.

   If he can't separate himself from the rest of our receiving corps, if he is at all comparable to say, LaQuan Williams, why not give streeter/Thompson?melette/ a shot instead?

[5aiah]

 The more I see of Doss from last year, the less convinced I am. He was on the field a lot last year. He is usually on the outside of a given play with a db draped all over him. He appears to be thinking about his routes still instead of just running them and it seems to me he should be a little further along by now.

   If he can't separate himself from the rest of our receiving corps, if he is at all comparable to say, LaQuan Williams, why not give streeter/Thompson?melette/ a shot instead?

Streeter can't run anything other than a go route and Melette looks similar to Doss. Doss is definitely over hyped though(on this board), but it seems he has improved in terms of speed,quickness,and route running which could make him stand out. Also he has been getting better and better vs the press which was a huge negative for a possession receiver. Doss is the most polished receiver not named Torrey. Everyone else has huge flaws. LaQuan is over hyped as well and he is no where near close to Doss. I had to tell someone that before. You are right though, last year Doss was a lazy route runner and got straight up disrespected by physical CBs at the line, but in no way can DT,streeter, or Mellette do much better in both of those areas. 

[Ravenseconbeast]

I think laquan is done.

His been showing small flashes here and there for few years, but his paycheck is getting bigger and his snaps are etting smaller.

Time for younger guys to get their chances(no matter how small) and see if they got what it takes to be a star.

[T3hRaven]

Mellette would make the team over Streeter. The Ravens don't part with their draft picks. If Mellette isn't placed on ir I dunno if Streeter will make the team because of Harbs inexplicable man crush on Reed. It all comes down to what Mellette shows at camp.