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Sami84

Why has Elvis Dumervil become slightly disrespected?

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Not on NFL top 100, pundits calling him overrated. Im not bias, and i've said this in another post, when it comes to finesse pass rush he's as good as i've seen.( for his size..his numbers are impossible)

 

He missed the entire 2010 season and in just 6 seasons has 63.5 sacks. If he had played in 2010 he would have def had between 10-15 sacks..that would be around 77 altogether and just 7 off t sizzles number. And sizzle has played 3 more years.

 

Is it just because he's joined us? Even before he joined i had him in my wishlist for the past 4 years! 

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I think he's gonna be awesome for us. Let the naysayers naysay. I just hope this revamped D gels quickly. We have all the talent we need to be top 5.
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He is overrated to be honest. If anyone has a subscription to pro football focus they could tell us. That being said, he is an upgrade over Kruger, albeit slightly. He's a tad bit better run defense wise, but he too can be neutralized by a very sound blocker or a double team. He really benefited playing with Von Miller last year as he took most of the attention away. Not sure how he will hold up as an OLB though I know he played the position before with Don Martindale as the Defensive coordinator. Really it depends on who has been rating him. He has a lot of hype coming over here though like he is some savior for the defense. He will likely register close to 10 sacks and will be much more efficient and a better player when we need him because Upshaw will take snaps on run situations. With him being used like Kruger he will have a monster season and playoffs, but still only get around 10 sacks while pressuring the QB often in passing situations. What he gives that we didn't get from Kruger is leadership and veteran savvy. He could be the best mentor for Upshaw and that would be great for us going forward.  

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He's a Raven now. Question answered.

Sad but true.

 

The Dude is going to be a star. He had 11 sacks last year in a scheme that he doesn't fit in well.

 

He is overrated to be honest. If anyone has a subscription to pro football focus they could tell us. That being said, he is an upgrade over Kruger, albeit slightly. He's a tad bit better run defense wise, but he too can be neutralized by a very sound blocker or a double team. He really benefited playing with Von Miller last year as he took most of the attention away. Not sure how he will hold up as an OLB though I know he played the position before with Don Martindale as the Defensive coordinator. Really it depends on who has been rating him. He has a lot of hype coming over here though like he is some savior for the defense. He will likely register close to 10 sacks and will be much more efficient and a better player when we need him because Upshaw will take snaps on run situations. With him being used like Kruger he will have a monster season and playoffs, but still only get around 10 sacks while pressuring the QB often in passing situations. What he gives that we didn't get from Kruger is leadership and veteran savvy. He could be the best mentor for Upshaw and that would be great for us going forward.  

 

He'll be playing next to one of the best 3-4 OLBs in the Game in Suggs. And, something he did not have in Denver was a top 5 DLinemen like Ngata is.

 

Ngata, Suggs, and Doom all demand double teams and last time I checked, you can have 4 rush the QB with six blockers. Teams are going to hate playing against our pass rush

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He is overrated to be honest. If anyone has a subscription to pro football focus they could tell us. That being said, he is an upgrade over Kruger, albeit slightly. He's a tad bit better run defense wise, but he too can be neutralized by a very sound blocker or a double team. He really benefited playing with Von Miller last year as he took most of the attention away. Not sure how he will hold up as an OLB though I know he played the position before with Don Martindale as the Defensive coordinator. Really it depends on who has been rating him. He has a lot of hype coming over here though like he is some savior for the defense. He will likely register close to 10 sacks and will be much more efficient and a better player when we need him because Upshaw will take snaps on run situations. With him being used like Kruger he will have a monster season and playoffs, but still only get around 10 sacks while pressuring the QB often in passing situations. What he gives that we didn't get from Kruger is leadership and veteran savvy. He could be the best mentor for Upshaw and that would be great for us going forward.  

Hmm. 

 

What about in 2006 when he was drafted by the Broncos, he had 8.5 sacks as a rookie when Ebenezer Ekuban had 7 sacks at RE with Kenard Lang generating 6 sacks at LE? The next year in 2007 as a sophomore he put up 12.5 sacks as a RE (facing the blindside blocker). The guy with the next highest sacks was Tim Crowder with 4. John Engelberger played across from Elvis and only got 1 sack. 

 

In 2008 he had a bad year, where he only had 5 sacks as a RE across from LE Ebenezer Ekuban who had 5 as well. The 2009 Broncos had Elvis Dumervil amass 17 sacks as a ROLB with 3 passes defended and 4 forced fumbles. That's insane. That was also the first year he played OLB as well. 

 

2010 he missed the season. The Broncos had 23 sacks on the year but most of the sacks came from the ILB DJ Williams & Mario Haggan with 5.5 & 5 respectively. That's extremely disappointing. 

 

2011 we saw the emergence of Von Miller who had 11.5 sacks as a LB with Elvis Dumervil as a RE on the 4-man front. Elvis still got 9.5 sacks that year, which isn't bad at all. 

 

So my point is while you can say Dumervil benefited from Miller in 2012 because Miller had a ridiculous 18.5 sacks while Elvis had 11, I think Elvis has proven himself as a very good pass rusher before Miller came into the league. 

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He's a Raven now. Question answered.

 

My sentiments exactly.  I'll be the first to admit that I've probably called Dumervil overrated in the past.  He's had ups and downs.  But I think he'll be a great fit here and will be very effective.  That's all that matters right now. 

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Our pass rush is so lethal. I'm just thinking of what Suggs, Doom, Ngata & Canty can do. We can blitz from anywhere at any time.

We don't know what Willams can do yet, but I love the chip on his shoulder and I have a great feeling about him as well.

I used to think Dumervil was overrated, but I never really had a reason for it lol... I think he'll very valuable for us, on & off the field.
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He's a Raven now. Question answered.


Disagree his lack of respect has been around from day 1
Liked him coming out of college but many pundits didnt think highly of him then.
He isn't flashy but he defiantly so productive so he doesn't get the love that others do.
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Hmm. 

 

What about in 2006 when he was drafted by the Broncos, he had 8.5 sacks as a rookie when Ebenezer Ekuban had 7 sacks at RE with Kenard Lang generating 6 sacks at LE? The next year in 2007 as a sophomore he put up 12.5 sacks as a RE (facing the blindside blocker). The guy with the next highest sacks was Tim Crowder with 4. John Engelberger played across from Elvis and only got 1 sack. 

 

In 2008 he had a bad year, where he only had 5 sacks as a RE across from LE Ebenezer Ekuban who had 5 as well. The 2009 Broncos had Elvis Dumervil amass 17 sacks as a ROLB with 3 passes defended and 4 forced fumbles. That's insane. That was also the first year he played OLB as well. 

 

2010 he missed the season. The Broncos had 23 sacks on the year but most of the sacks came from the ILB DJ Williams & Mario Haggan with 5.5 & 5 respectively. That's extremely disappointing. 

 

2011 we saw the emergence of Von Miller who had 11.5 sacks as a LB with Elvis Dumervil as a RE on the 4-man front. Elvis still got 9.5 sacks that year, which isn't bad at all. 

 

So my point is while you can say Dumervil benefited from Miller in 2012 because Miller had a ridiculous 18.5 sacks while Elvis had 11, I think Elvis has proven himself as a very good pass rusher before Miller came into the league. 

I was just saying he was overrated based on what most seem to think. His leadership and pass rushing ability will be key to our success, but you hear people saying he's a great all around DE and hes gonna go for 20 sacks, thats just not gonna happen.

 

Well if anyone doubts Dooms value, here is what he meant to the team he just left:

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000159310/article/von-miller-on-loss-of-elvis-dumervil-he-was-our-rock

Exactly, thats more what he brings that i like.

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I was just saying he was overrated based on what most seem to think. His leadership and pass rushing ability will be key to our success, but you hear people saying he's a great all around DE and hes gonna go for 20 sacks, thats just not gonna happen.

Why not? Give me a couple good reasons for why that mark is impossible for him to achieve.
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I was just saying he was overrated based on what most seem to think. His leadership and pass rushing ability will be key to our success, but you hear people saying he's a great all around DE and hes gonna go for 20 sacks, thats just not gonna happen.

Exactly, thats more what he brings that i like.

Oh well no. He's not a great all around DE or OLB. He struggles against the run and I remember him missing quite some tackles IIRC.
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Why not? Give me a couple good reasons for why that mark is impossible for him to achieve.


Nothing is impossible, but its highly unlikely he gets anywhere close to that mark. I'd be extremely happy with a 10 sack season.
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Why not? Give me a couple good reasons for why that mark is impossible for him to achieve.

Ok I just wanna say first of all I think he will be a huge success in our system and i think he will be amazing in the lockeroom and will help the Ravens develop young guys like Upshaw. But this is why he won't hit 20 bro. He is more of a situational pass rusher who needs to be kept fresh. Yes he is slightly better at stopping the run than kruger, but that's a backhanded compliment. These advanced statistics articles back me up that his production isn't as stellar as his reputation would have you to believe.

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/12/13/marquee-matchups-opposite-ends/        

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/01/refo-chiefs-broncos-week-17/

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/02/28/performance-based-value-denver-broncos/

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/01/free-agents-denver-broncos/

The first is why he has fallen.

The second explains Dumervil has a Run Stop Percentage of 4.7%, which is in the bottom 10 for 4-3 defensive ends.

The third is in regards to his previous pay, and lets you know the behind the scenes of why he took a paycut, or tried to.

The fourth has his overall rating in regards to other FAs on the team.

 

I hope Doom gets 20 sacks but he won't be full time on the field(thats a good thing) and he could be a target and giveaway for smart QBs so it is highly doubtful.

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Nothing is impossible, but its highly unlikely he gets anywhere close to that mark. I'd be extremely happy with a 10 sack season.

I agree with this. But why not be optimistic and dream of a 20 sack season?
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Nothing is impossible, but its highly unlikely he gets anywhere close to that mark. I'd be extremely happy with a 10 sack season.

I predict a 10 sack season with him taking a lot less snaps than he did last year, meaning more efficiency in regards to sacks hurries and QB hits, while staying very fresh for the next SB run.

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I predict a 10 sack season with him taking a lot less snaps than he did last year, meaning more efficiency in regards to sacks hurries and QB hits, while staying very fresh for the next SB run.

That's what I am hoping for. Upshaw will get a lot of snaps, but Elvis should be in there for all the obvious pass rush situations.
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He's a Raven now. Question answered.

 

this^, media doesn't like the Ravens we all know this but that is why, because he is a Raven.

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That's what I am hoping for. Upshaw will get a lot of snaps, but Elvis should be in there for all the obvious pass rush situations.


Your first reply lacked any substance and was easily refutable by mentioning that he has gotten 17 sacks before and with a wide open offense other teams will have to pass more against Baltimore than ever.


This last post is more along the lines of rationally suggesting why he won't get 20 or near there.
Its also my feeling as well. In terms of pass rushers I think we have lots of depth so elvis won't be in enough to get 20 sacks especially if upshaw,, McPhee, etc get hot one game. Then elvis would lose snaps because another player is feeling it.

Team goal for sacks would be like a few years ago and produce 4 players with 9+ sacks....
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Not on NFL top 100, pundits calling him overrated. Im not bias, and i've said this in another post, when it comes to finesse pass rush he's as good as i've seen.( for his size..his numbers are impossible)
 
He missed the entire 2010 season and in just 6 seasons has 63.5 sacks. If he had played in 2010 he would have def had between 10-15 sacks..that would be around 77 altogether and just 7 off t sizzles number. And sizzle has played 3 more years.
 
Is it just because he's joined us? Even before he joined i had him in my wishlist for the past 4 years!

You know - I was thinking the same thing. For whatever reason, there is an undercurrent of disrespect towards the Ravens organization by 95% of national media including Sirius Radio personalities. I don't understand it frankly, but I really don't care anymore. The Ravens have plenty of love and respect from thousands of dedicated Ravens fans all over the country. That respect and love is more than any other team can hope or expect. So save for the national punditry there is ample respect for the Ravens so the hell with the disrespectful ones.
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Your first reply lacked any substance and was easily refutable by mentioning that he has gotten 17 sacks before and with a wide open offense other teams will have to pass more against Baltimore than ever.


This last post is more along the lines of rationally suggesting why he won't get 20 or near there.
Its also my feeling as well. In terms of pass rushers I think we have lots of depth so elvis won't be in enough to get 20 sacks especially if upshaw,, McPhee, etc get hot one game. Then elvis would lose snaps because another player is feeling it.

Team goal for sacks would be like a few years ago and produce 4 players with 9+ sacks....


I shouldnt have to rationally explain why he won't get 20 sacks. That's an absurd number. He had one year in his career where he has even approached that mark, and to be honest he is a hot and cold pass rusher. He's not the kind of guy who is consistently getting pressure but he has a few games where he just dominates. Its true that he has a great DL around him, but suggesting 20 sacks is just wishful thinking.
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He is getting hate because he is on the Ravens.  The Ravens never get any respect they have to take it by force.  I hope Dumervil takes it by repeating his 09 season with 17 sacks.

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I shouldnt have to rationally explain why he won't get 20 sacks. That's an absurd number. He had one year in his career where he has even approached that mark, and to be honest he is a hot and cold pass rusher. He's not the kind of guy who is consistently getting pressure but he has a few games where he just dominates. Its true that he has a great DL around him, but suggesting 20 sacks is just wishful thinking.

 

 

 Yeah I'm trying to keep my expectations realistic and stick to the facts. Also getting 20 sacks would mean being full time and that is just a bad idea in the long run. Also im looking at Hurries and QB hits as well. Sacks aren't everything.

 

 

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Yeah I'm trying to keep my expectations realistic and stick to the facts. Also getting 20 sacks would mean being full time and that is just a bad idea in the long run. Also im looking at Hurries and QB hits as well. Sacks aren't everything.



He fares pretty well in applying pressure and I think he will have a big year. I just try to be realistic.
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The guy simply had 17sacks in 14 games
Yup 20 is irrational and he isn't that kind of player lol
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The guy simply had 17sacks in 14 games
Yup 20 is irrational and he isn't that kind of player lol

if you check out my earlier posts you will see why its extremely unlikely that he gets 20 and why playing full time to get 20 is a bad idea. Unless you saying he could get 20 as a part time player, which in that case would be historic and truly prove Baltimore's dominance. 

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if you check out my earlier posts you will see why its extremely unlikely that he gets 20 and why playing full time to get 20 is a bad idea. Unless you saying he could get 20 as a part time player, which in that case would be historic and truly prove Baltimore's dominance.

If he were to get 20 he would presumably be playing well enough in an all around fashion as a full time starter in order to have enough snaps so I don't it would be hurting us otherwise he wouldn't be on the field so much in that hypothetical scenario.
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I don't think Elvis is disrespected. His been a proven player for a lot of years. Obviously players respects him. Ozzie and our FO respected him to give him a big contract even @ his age.

The reason why Broncos made a move to cut Doom's salary is b/c of Von Miller's rise to stardom. It didn't make sense for Broncos to pay a top-tier money for a pass rusher that set the edge @ the right side. Ravens just happen to be in the right time to scoop up Dumervil when opportunity presented itself.
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If he were to get 20 he would presumably be playing well enough in an all around fashion as a full time starter in order to have enough snaps so I don't it would be hurting us otherwise he wouldn't be on the field so much in that hypothetical scenario.

Well this hypothetical scenario isn't going to happen because he is a below average run defender. Considering the monster Upshaw is against the run I doubt he gets more than 600-700 snaps on defense. Granted this will keep him fresher for pass-rushing, but it still will make it difficult to amass those numbers.
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If he were to get 20 he would presumably be playing well enough in an all around fashion as a full time starter in order to have enough snaps so I don't it would be hurting us otherwise he wouldn't be on the field so much in that hypothetical scenario.

 

 but this is more likely:

 

Well this hypothetical scenario isn't going to happen because he is a below average run defender. Considering the monster Upshaw is against the run I doubt he gets more than 600-700 snaps on defense. Granted this will keep him fresher for pass-rushing, but it still will make it difficult to amass those numbers.

We want him nice and fresh every pass rush because we have the personnel to make that happen. 

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Our pass rush is so lethal.

 

lol ... you forgot to say ON PAPER 

 

You should withhold your praise until after they actually do something on the field.

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lol ... you forgot to say ON PAPER

You should withhold your praise until after they actually do something on the field.

You're right.
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if you check out my earlier posts you will see why its extremely unlikely that he gets 20 and why playing full time to get 20 is a bad idea. Unless you saying he could get 20 as a part time player, which in that case would be historic and truly prove Baltimore's dominance.


Really because if you check out my other post you would see that I had agreed that with our rotation he won't get it.
There's a difference between saying he won't due to rotation and saying he isn't that type of player to be able to
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Disagree his lack of respect has been around from day 1
Liked him coming out of college but many pundits didnt think highly of him then.
He isn't flashy but he defiantly so productive so he doesn't get the love that others do.

Pundits didn't think highly of him? Isn't flashy? Sounds alot like another Raven....Flacco. The guy has done nothing but set NFL records and get a SB MPV award, but those same pundits still say Ryan and Romo are better QBs. *sigh*

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Im going to take a stab here. I say he will get 13-15 sacks this year. yup. I think he will be more motivated then ever and at 29 is at the peak of his career.

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Ok I just wanna say first of all I think he will be a huge success in our system and i think he will be amazing in the lockeroom and will help the Ravens develop young guys like Upshaw. But this is why he won't hit 20 bro. He is more of a situational pass rusher who needs to be kept fresh. Yes he is slightly better at stopping the run than kruger, but that's a backhanded compliment. These advanced statistics articles back me up that his production isn't as stellar as his reputation would have you to believe.

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/12/13/marquee-matchups-opposite-ends/        

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/01/refo-chiefs-broncos-week-17/

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/02/28/performance-based-value-denver-broncos/

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/01/free-agents-denver-broncos/

The first is why he has fallen.

The second explains Dumervil has a Run Stop Percentage of 4.7%, which is in the bottom 10 for 4-3 defensive ends.

The third is in regards to his previous pay, and lets you know the behind the scenes of why he took a paycut, or tried to.

The fourth has his overall rating in regards to other FAs on the team.

 

I hope Doom gets 20 sacks but he won't be full time on the field(thats a good thing) and he could be a target and giveaway for smart QBs so it is highly doubtful.

 

Here's a pretty good article that may help to clear up some of the reasons Dumervil numbers are what they are. It's long but has some good views.

 

I agree that 20 sacks is a high number, hell it's high for anyone. But he does have the natural talent to produce a number that high. But reaching it is another story.

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Really because if you check out my other post you would see that I had agreed that with our rotation he won't get it.
There's a difference between saying he won't due to rotation and saying he isn't that type of player to be able to

Oh the rotation is just a part of it. The advanced statistics was what I was using to back up my point that he isn't even that type of player able to do so at this point.

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Here's a pretty good article that may help to clear up some of the reasons Dumervil numbers are what they are. It's long but has some good views.

 

I agree that 20 sacks is a high number, hell it's high for anyone. But he does have the natural talent to produce a number that high. But reaching it is another story.

That's an excellent article, thanks.

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Pundits didn't think highly of him? Isn't flashy? Sounds alot like another Raven....Flacco. The guy has done nothing but set NFL records and get a SB MPV award, but those same pundits still say Ryan and Romo are better QBs. *sigh*


So you agree that elvis' lack of respect has started before he was a raven or are you one that thinks it has begun now?
Your post seems more along the lines of thinking he is a fit here because of how much disrespect he has faced on his career.
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So you agree that elvis' lack of respect has started before he was a raven or are you one that thinks it has begun now?
Your post seems more along the lines of thinking he is a fit here because of how much disrespect he has faced on his career.

Neither. My response to the quoted post, which indicated that Doom goes about his business without being flashy about it, was why he wasn't getting respect from the pundits and talking heads. I was pointing out that those same idiots never gave, and some still don't give, Flacco any love for the same reason.

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I'm going to take a stab at predicting Dumervil's sack count.

We play the AFC East, NFC North, Houston Texans and Denver Broncos this year.

Starting with the Patriots they have Solder and Vollmer at OT. Pretty nice exterior. Considering that in addition to the fact that I expect the Patriots to run more than before I believe Dumervil won't have his best game that game.
Patriots: 0

Next is the Houston Texans. They have an elite left side but their right struggles. Rookie RT historically struggle and I'm not sure Williams will be different. Unless something changes here and Brooks or Jones improves I thinly Dumervil will have a good game this game despite having Arian Foster. Now signing Leach can help but it won't solve all their issues.
Texans: 1 sack

The Denver Broncos have a terrific OL and while you can say Dumervil has practiced against them they've also practiced against him. I actually like Elvis in this game and think he'll have a good game because while I like Hillman and the other RB Denver has I think Peyton will throw it more early on in the year.
Broncos: 1 sack

As for the rest of the AFC East: I see Elvis playing well against the Jets and Dolphins due to lack of run game or due to a weak OL on the right side respectively. I think the Bills give him a tough time. Their OL is underrated and they have a very good run game.
Jets: 0.5 sacks
Dolphins: 1 sack
Bills: 0
Total: 1.5 sacks

AFC North: I think Elvis will do well against the Bengals even with Smith at RT. I think he'll struggle against the Browns with their OL and RB and OC. I like the Steelers OL and run game and even Ben but I don't think it'll be good enough. I think he'll do okay.
Bengals: 1 sack
Browns: 0
Steelers: 1 sack
Total: 2 sacks

NFC North: I think Elvis will dominate the Lions. I think he'll play well against the Packers. I think he'll be embarrassed against the Vikings. I see him playing okay against the Bears.
Bears: 1 sack
Lions: 2.5 sacks
Vikings: 0
Packers: 1 sack
Total: 4.5 sacks

10 sacks

Not a bad total at all
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I shouldnt have to rationally explain why he won't get 20 sacks. That's an absurd number. He had one year in his career where he has even approached that mark, and to be honest he is a hot and cold pass rusher. He's not the kind of guy who is consistently getting pressure but he has a few games where he just dominates. Its true that he has a great DL around him, but suggesting 20 sacks is just wishful thinking.

 

20 is unrealistically high I agree. I say 12-14 though. Somebody is going to have a monster sack year and it's either going to be Suggs or Dumervil. Also, I don't think the FO brought Dumervil in just to have him on the field in situational moments. He will get the majority of the snaps, but Upshaw will see a lot of playing time. Still though, I think both Suggs and Dumervil can have 10+ sacks this season. Our pass rush this year will be beast!!

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20 is unrealistically high I agree. I say 12-14 though. Somebody is going to have a monster sack year and it's either going to be Suggs or Dumervil. Also, I don't think the FO brought Dumervil in just to have him on the field in situational moments. He will get the majority of the snaps, but Upshaw will see a lot of playing time. Still though, I think both Suggs and Dumervil can have 10+ sacks this season. Our pass rush this year will be beast!!

Now I don't remember the contract details but I do have a vague memory of them. Doesn't Elvis have like 9M in incentives which are reached by posting something like 12 sacks a year or something?

Now I'm not saying we'll ever short ourselves in the games by making him stay under that number to avoid the incentives but perhaps we gave him that inventive because we know he'll be in a rotation with Upshaw due to him being weak against the run?

If someone can look up what the incentive requirements are for his contract I'd appreciate it as I'm on mobile and I'm having a hard time finding it.
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I think Dumervil started getting disrespected last year when Von Miller started blowing up, people missed the fact that Dummervil's presence helped him greatly. I think he is also underrated because he is undersized and he picked the Ravens over the other teams chasing him. He came here and people forgot what he did in Denver.
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Here's a pretty good article that may help to clear up some of the reasons Dumervil numbers are what they are. It's long but has some good views.

 

I agree that 20 sacks is a high number, hell it's high for anyone. But he does have the natural talent to produce a number that high. But reaching it is another story.

 

If anyone hasn't read that, then they should. It pretty much answers the topic and explains why he could be elite again in a 34.

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His weakness is defending the run so he gets downgraded against guys like Suggs who can do both, rush the passer and stop the run.

 

Doom will be just fine as long as he is healthy and teams with Suggs to terrorize QBs

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