Joe Flacco called overrated on NFL.com

[SteelersProphet]

It's a team game I should remind you as Ben won his 1st in a game where [in my Skip Bayless voice] he had the worst QB rating of ALL TIME.

 

Joe has played in 3 AFC Championship games. Without sounding like a broken record, it's a team game. Perhaps Ben had a better team which is why in his 3 AFC Championship games, he's gone on to 3 Super Bowls

 

But it's hard to give a guy that plays 9 or 10 games a year, the nod over the guy that plays all 16.

in joe's first championship game it was his fault you guys didn't go to the superbowl.....troy's pick six ring a bell

 

and 9 or 10 games a year.....do you really think that or are you intentionally misleading people...he has never played less than 12

[easternshore97]

ill be honest im confused by both these comments......BOLD'S statement I don't get at all...it seems to me you guys think I said something that im not seeing......but ill rephrase my point just to clarify

 

all I was saying with those two comments is Ben and Joe are in the same class this year.......but bens pedigree puts him over the edge because he is a consistent champion where as joe has yet to accomplish that....

 

and the rest of my comment about bens second year was an answer to this old argument that bens second superbowl doesn't count because he had a bad game....brought up by BOLD...so I would like you to clarify what you think I said

 

on a side note....of course I think joe can beat us next year....but I also think Ben can beat you guys

His second superbowl was Arizona. That one really counted. He's a proven winner - fact. Joe is in the playoffs every year - fact.

 

Yes of course you think that. But how optimistic are you about that. This defense is shaping up like the 2006 defense which had so much depth. That's what we've got on the d-line. It's a beautiful thing. I'm not big for predictions, but I'd imagine that if Ravens are winning those games next year, they won't be 3 and 4 point wins.

[SteelersProphet]

His second superbowl was Arizona. That one really counted. He's a proven winner - fact. Joe is in the playoffs every year - fact.

 

Yes of course you think that. But how optimistic are you about that. This defense is shaping up like the 2006 defense which had so much depth. That's what we've got on the d-line. It's a beautiful thing. I'm not big for predictions, but I'd imagine that if Ravens are winning those games next year, they won't be 3 and 4 point wins.

 

that's a good catch.....what I was thinking when I wrote that was you guys count one superbowl but you don't give him credit for two...so its confusing but I was saying you don't count both superbowls

 

do you really think you guys will sweep us.....that's happened twice all time....weve swept you guys four times...it doesn't happen alot

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

ill be honest im confused by both these comments......BOLD'S statement I don't get at all...it seems to me you guys think I said something that im not seeing......but ill rephrase my point just to clarify

 

all I was saying with those two comments is Ben and Joe are in the same class this year.......but bens pedigree puts him over the edge because he is a consistent champion where as joe has yet to accomplish that....

 

and the rest of my comment about bens second year was an answer to this old argument that bens second superbowl doesn't count because he had a bad game....brought up by BOLD...so I would like you to clarify what you think I said

 

on a side note....of course I think joe can beat us next year....but I also think Ben can beat you guys

 

 

You said that that Ben winning 2 superbowls in years he didn't play 16 games shows he is still effective when not entirely healthy. my rebuttal was that he wasn't actually that effective in the super bowl win.

 

your rebuttal was that since ben won (even without the stats or play to back it up) and Joe didn't win the superbowl (even though the individual play was even, if not better by Joe) that makes Ben better.

 

My comment was in regards to this last statement, because you said Ben deserves to be higher than Joe on this list. By your argument, regardless of stats or individual play, since Ben won the superbowl and Joe didn't back then, Ben was clearly the superior player early in their respective careers.

 

If that's the case, then the fact that Flacco has been to back-to-back AFC championships, and won a super bowl, where Ben has not made the playoffs or been bounced early by Tebow then by YOUR LOGIC, Flacco should be rated the higher player right now.

 

How does this not make sense?

[easternshore97]

in joe's first championship game it was his fault you guys didn't go to the superbowl.....troy's pick six ring a bell

 

and 9 or 10 games a year.....do you really think that or are you intentionally misleading people...he has never played less than 12

My bad, it always seems like he misses more time. I was off by 2 without doing the fact checking.

 

I don't recall seeing Ben win in the playoffs in his rookie season either. Matter of fact, I think the Pats pounded the Steelers in the playoffs 41-27. The article headline - Big Ben Turns to Gentle Ben

[easternshore97]

that's a good catch.....what I was thinking when I wrote that was you guys count one superbowl but you don't give him credit for two...so its confusing but I was saying you don't count both superbowls

 

do you really think you guys will sweep us.....that's happened twice all time....weve swept you guys four times...it doesn't happen alot

I made no such statement. I merely asked how optimistic are you that Steelers will win AND I said I don't think both games will be won by 3 or 4 point margins. That's the only prediction I'm going to make.

 

MM

[SteelersProphet]

You said that that Ben winning 2 superbowls in years he didn't play 16 games shows he is still effective when not entirely healthy. my rebuttal was that he wasn't actually that effective in the super bowl win.

 

your rebuttal was that since ben won (even without the stats or play to back it up) and Joe didn't win the superbowl (even though the individual play was even, if not better by Joe) that makes Ben better.

 

My comment was in regards to this last statement, because you said Ben deserves to be higher than Joe on this list. By your argument, regardless of stats or individual play, since Ben won the superbowl and Joe didn't back then, Ben was clearly the superior player early in their respective careers.

 

If that's the case, then the fact that Flacco has been to back-to-back AFC championships, and won a super bowl, where Ben has not made the playoffs or been bounced early by Tebow then by YOUR LOGIC, Flacco should be rated the higher player right now.

 

How does this not make sense?

I just didn't understand what you were commenting on....but now that you have clarified I do understand

 

first off those are two separate things i was saying...but in regards to the bold part....what I was saying here was that even though ben didn't play all 16 we still got two superbowls....and we wouldn't have without Ben...Ben made those runs happen....so ill take a QB who doesn't play all 16 but wins a superbowl

 

the second part was I feel joe and ben are close at this point in their careers....but the tie breaker is that ben has more Rings and has been a three time afc champion...joe is a one time champion

[SteelersProphet]

, but I'd imagine that if Ravens are winning those games next year, they won't be 3 and 4 point wins.

I apologize...I misread this....I read the if as a the

[SteelersProphet]

 

I made no such statement. I merely asked how optimistic are you that Steelers will win AND I said I don't think both games will be won by 3 or 4 point margins. That's the only prediction I'm going to make.

 

MM

 

 

i think we split like we always do.......but they will be 3-4 point wins

[callahan09]

It's a team game I should remind you as Ben won his 1st in a game where [in my Skip Bayless voice] he had the worst QB rating of ALL TIME.

 

Joe has played in 3 AFC Championship games. Without sounding like a broken record, it's a team game. Perhaps Ben had a better team which is why in his 3 AFC Championship games, he's gone on to 3 Super Bowls

 

But it's hard to give a guy that plays 9 or 10 games a year, the nod over the guy that plays all 16.

 

Your comment in the voice of Skip Bayless made me laugh and it made me think to look something up...

Joe Flacco's name appears on the list 4 times for the top-100 best single post-season games in NFL history (by Passer Rating, min. 20 attempts).

 

Ben Roethlisberger's name appears once.

 

The only QB's to appear on the list at least four times are:

 

Joe Montana (6)

Tom Brady (5)

Brett Favre (4)

Joe Flacco (4)

Peyton Manning (4)

Kurt Warner (4)

[izvoodoo]

ill be honest im confused by both these comments......BOLD'S statement I don't get at all...it seems to me you guys think I said something that im not seeing......but ill rephrase my point just to clarify

 

all I was saying with those two comments is Ben and Joe are in the same class this year.......but bens pedigree puts him over the edge because he is a consistent champion where as joe has yet to accomplish that....

 

and the rest of my comment about bens second year was an answer to this old argument that bens second superbowl doesn't count because he had a bad game....brought up by BOLD...so I would like you to clarify what you think I said

 

on a side note....of course I think joe can beat us next year....but I also think Ben can beat you guys

I wasn't really that into this conversation, I just wanted to know if opinions were changing in our rivals to the North west (see what I did there?)

[Ravensfan23]

I agree that this list isn't a perfect rating system but if your right and this list is based of reputation then the fact that flacco is rated very high on this list shows he is rated highly by people.......so everyone saying "how can he be overrated when no one gives him any credit" are wrong.....because obviously someone somewhere rates him higher than 99.9% of all NFL players....I just think its time you guys stopped the us against the world attitude because guess what....your the champs....you cant play the "we get no respect" card anymore

 

he won the superbowl twice in seasons where he didn't play all 16 games...so that's pretty effective

 

Flacco isn't hated by all and even you guys in Steelers land are starting to respect him. The question of how can Flacco be overracted, stems from the fact that he's finally getting credit for his accomplishments but instantly is listed as overrated. Nobody is saying that Flacco gets no credit at all. As for the "we get no respect" card, just because we are the champs doesn't mean the Ravens gets the respect they deserve. If i didn't follow the NFL as much as I do, I'd think the 49ers won the Super Bowl not the Ravens. You see so many people picking teams like the Bengals and Dolphins to make the playoffs while the Ravens miss out. I can't remember the last time any Super Bowl winning team was counted out as much as the Ravens. Maybe it's the loss of players, but how can you acknowledge the losses without highlighting the additions. You would think the Ravens have no talent returning.

 

Back to Flacco, your answer to this question will sum things up for me. How can you possibility have someone who's had the amount of success Flacco has had, numbers that stack up against some of the best HOFers to play the QB position, yet when you have some bogus list of the top 10 QB of 2016 and you leave Flacco off? You have guys like Sam Bradford and Ryan Tannehill on this list but a Super Bowl winning QB entering his prime is left off. It's things like this that allow Ravens fans to question how can Flacco be considered overrated, when the majority don't even rank him high.

[SteelersProphet]

Flacco isn't hated by all and even you guys in Steelers land are starting to respect him. The question of how can Flacco be overracted, stems from the fact that he's finally getting credit for his accomplishments but instantly is listed as overrated. Nobody is saying that Flacco gets no credit at all. As for the "we get no respect" card, just because we are the champs doesn't mean the Ravens gets the respect they deserve. If i didn't follow the NFL as much as I do, I'd think the 49ers won the Super Bowl not the Ravens. You see so many people picking teams like the Bengals and Dolphins to make the playoffs while the Ravens miss out. I can't remember the last time any Super Bowl winning team was counted out as much as the Ravens. Maybe it's the loss of players, but how can you acknowledge the losses without highlighting the additions. You would think the Ravens have no talent returning.

 

Back to Flacco, your answer to this question will sum things up for me. How can you possibility have someone who's had the amount of success Flacco has had, numbers that stack up against some of the best HOFers to play the QB position, yet when you have some bogus list of the top 10 QB of 2016 and you leave Flacco off? You have guys like Sam Bradford and Ryan Tannehill on this list but a Super Bowl winning QB entering his prime is left off. It's things like this that allow Ravens fans to question how can Flacco be considered overrated, when the majority don't even rank him high.

 

in regards to the bold section...the answer is the steelers...after the 2008 season people were flabbergasted how we won...they said "its the worst o-line ever to win the superbowl" fans of every team not named the packers or patriots feel this way.....

 

I did not read that list but it doesn't matter.....he makes some lists...he doesn't make others.....but the fact is that he gets the same treatment ben gets......and Steelers fans are used to it....you will get used to it too

[Ravensfan23]

in regards to the bold section...the answer is the steelers...after the 2008 season people were flabbergasted how we won...they said "its the worst o-line ever to win the superbowl" fans of every team not named the packers or patriots feel this way.....

 

I did not read that list but it doesn't matter.....he makes some lists...he doesn't make others.....but the fact is that he gets the same treatment ben gets......and Steelers fans are used to it....you will get used to it too

 

and even with all those talks, who was projected to win the AFC North in 2009? Let's be clear, I could care less what is said positively or negatively about the Ravens or their players because it doesn't effect how those guys play ball. This is not a contest for me to try and prove the Ravens and Flacco are disrespected more then the Steelers. Most of the national talking heads are largely uneducated when it comes to small market teams. I'd much rather talk to a well knowlegdable die hard fan about his fan team then watch a sports show. So i'm not gonna sit here and list all the reasons why Flacco isn't overrated or why the Ravens can still play the disrepect card. The fact is both statements are accurate for whatever reason that may be. Despite winning back to back AFC North titles and making back to back AFC Championships we've been hearing how this division is still the Steelers division and how the Bengals are up and coming. Why should 2013 be any different. I think it'll be fun to watch those guys eat words again.

[SteelersProphet]

. Despite winning back to back AFC North titles and making back to back AFC Championships we've been hearing how this division is still the Steelers division and how the Bengals are up and coming. Why should 2013 be any different. I think it'll be fun to watch those guys eat words again.

oh come on......the majority of things ive heard put the steelers third in the division....our time is over is the consensus....if your not projected to win the division its because they have the bengals winning it...so don't try and claim we are the favorites to win the division.....its the ravens who are favored in the north with your major competition being the bengals.....I think it will be fun to watch them eat their words too but that's because the Steelers have been counted out by all except a select few

[Ravensfan23]

oh come on......the majority of things ive heard put the steelers third in the division....our time is over is the consensus....if your not projected to win the division its because they have the bengals winning it...so don't try and claim we are the favorites to win the division.....its the ravens who are favored in the north with your major competition being the bengals.....I think it will be fun to watch them eat their words too but that's because the Steelers have been counted out by all except a select few

 

Oh I'll admit, many are writting you guys off with much of the same talk we've heard over the last couple years. The defense is too old. I guess it just depends on who you choose to listen too. If you listen to Skip, Stephen A and Heath Evans, it's the Steelers division to lose. If you listen to Warren Sapp the Steelers don't have a chance. I've heard a few label the Ravens as the team to beat, I think Jerry Rice did. But I've heard way more it's the Bengals time then I'd like to hear and those guys haven't proven anything.

 

For my money the Ravens are the team to beat, I feel we have the better overall team lead by Flacco. Year 5 is when a QB seems to come into his own and year 6 is when he seems to break out in most cases. I strongly feel Flacco is ready for the breakout and be placed among the top tier guys. Of course you guys lead by Ben will still have something to say about it.

[The Oakland Cathedral]

C'mon guys, lets be serious. The Browns are the clear division favorites.

[RavensQB]

 

 

 

The only QB's to appear on the list at least four times are:

 

Joe Montana (6)

Tom Brady (5)

Brett Favre (4)

Joe Flacco (4)

Peyton Manning (4)

Kurt Warner (4)

 

 

 

Things that make you go HMMMMMMmmmmmmm

[SteelersProphet]

Oh I'll admit, many are writting you guys off with much of the same talk we've heard over the last couple years. The defense is too old. I guess it just depends on who you choose to listen too. If you listen to Skip, Stephen A and Heath Evans, it's the Steelers division to lose. If you listen to Warren Sapp the Steelers don't have a chance. I've heard a few label the Ravens as the team to beat, I think Jerry Rice did. But I've heard way more it's the Bengals time then I'd like to hear and those guys haven't proven anything.

 

For my money the Ravens are the team to beat, I feel we have the better overall team lead by Flacco. Year 5 is when a QB seems to come into his own and year 6 is when he seems to break out in most cases. I strongly feel Flacco is ready for the breakout and be placed among the top tier guys. Of course you guys lead by Ben will still have something to say about it.

it will definitely be interesting......but I know this will come as a surprise but my money is on the steelers....we are not used to playing second fiddle....the ravens championship has lit a fire under our rear end and it will rocket us to our 7th championship

 

C'mon guys, lets be serious. The Browns are the clear division favorites.

lol I feel bad for them because this division is so hard...if they played in another division they would have a chance

 

 

Your comment in the voice of Skip Bayless made me laugh and it made me think to look something up...

Joe Flacco's name appears on the list 4 times for the top-100 best single post-season games in NFL history (by Passer Rating, min. 20 attempts).

 

Ben Roethlisberger's name appears once.

 

The only QB's to appear on the list at least four times are:

 

Joe Montana (6)

Tom Brady (5)

Brett Favre (4)

Joe Flacco (4)

Peyton Manning (4)

Kurt Warner (4)

 

Ben has those lists too....do you want me to throw up all the QB's that have been to three superbowls....joe's not on that one

[PurpleCorsair]

I just didn't understand what you were commenting on....but now that you have clarified I do understand

 

first off those are two separate things i was saying...but in regards to the bold part....what I was saying here was that even though ben didn't play all 16 we still got two superbowls....and we wouldn't have without Ben...Ben made those runs happen....so ill take a QB who doesn't play all 16 but wins a superbowl

 

the second part was I feel joe and ben are close at this point in their careers....but the tie breaker is that ben has more Rings and has been a three time afc champion...joe is a one time champion

 

2008 Ben started and played in all 16 games, the only year he did so I might add..

[CARavensFan]

As a generation it sometimes feels like we are obsessed with making lists out of things and doing rankings all the time.

 

Personally I've always felt that you should wait to rank players until their careers are done so you can see everything in context, how many times have we heard that the team to win a Super Bowl or NBA FInals is the "next" dynasty only to have fall apart and never get back in the following years?

 

Its not fair to compare someone in the middle (one might even say prime) of their career to someone who is near the end or retired (Manning or Farve respectively). I would rather just enjoy the ride and the quality play from all the guys being discussed, because despite everyone's opinions they all can play football at a high level, and then when their time in the NFL is done we can debate where they rank with the other greats.

 

Just my two cents (and perhaps its my rational to keep myself sane during the off-season of ranking everything lol).

[callahan09]

OK, it took a lot longer than I expected but I have completed at least a decent portion of potential research into the statistics of QBs against playoff teams.  Here's a write-up of some of my thoughts and findings:

 

The only active QBs with more games against playoff teams than Joe Flacco (44) are guys who have been starters in this league for at least 4 years longer than him (Peyton Manning, Matt Hasselbeck, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, and Carson Palmer).

 

Flacco has played the third highest percentage of his career games against playoff teams (48%).  The only guys with a higher percentage are Matthew Stafford (49%) and Byron Leftwich (48%).  For comparison's sake, Matt Ryan has played the third lowest percentage of games against playoff games (35%), with only Matt Cassel (29%) and Trent Edwards (27%) being lower.

 

The average percentage of completed games played against playoff teams out of all active QBs is 41%.

 

Flacco also has a 23-21 (0.523 winning percentage) career record against playoff teams, while the total amongst all active QBs is 483-858-3 (0.360 winning percentage).  Matt Ryan has a losing record against playoff teams (12-16, or 0.429 winning percentage).

 

Out of Flacco's 1384 career attempts against playoff teams, he has an 84.0 QB Rating.  This ranks 7th:

 

1. Aaron Rodgers: 37/86 (43%), 20-17-0 -- 892/1342, 10398 Yards, 75 TD, 20 INT = 102.2 QB Rating

2. Tom Brady: 80/196 (41%), 52-28-0 -- 1881/2980, 21210 Yards, 141 TD, 64 INT = 91.2 QB Rating

3. Drew Brees: 65/177 (37%), 31-34-0 -- 1627/2571, 18672 Yards, 130 TD, 73 INT = 90.1 QB Rating

4. Tony Romo: 38/96 (40%), 14-24-0 -- 823/1320, 10101 Yards, 67 TD, 43 INT = 89.3 QB Rating

5. Peyton Manning: 98/239 (41%), 47-51-0 -- 2312/3651, 26785 Yards, 175 TD, 124 INT = 87.2 QB Rating

6. Matt Schaub: 33/83 (40%), 11-22-0 -- 782/1242, 9054 Yards, 45 TD, 38 INT = 84.3 QB Rating

7. Joe Flacco: 44/92 (48%), 23-21-0 -- 821/1384, 9695 Yards, 60 TD, 37 INT = 84 QB Rating

 

Some other relevant or popular QBs and where they fell on the list (out of 33 qualifying players):

 

10. Ben Roethlisberger: 58/141 (41%), 31-27-0 -- 1116/1838, 13691 Yards, 76 TD, 63 INT = 83.2 QB Rating

12. Eli Manning: 64/145 (44%), 26-38-0 -- 1259/2153, 14726 Yards, 101 TD, 65 INT = 82.4 QB Rating

13. Matt Ryan: 28/81 (35%), 12-16-0 -- 625/1048, 6608 Yards, 40 TD, 25 INT = 80.8 QB Rating

14. Philip Rivers: 42/119 (35%), 14-28-0 -- 858/1440, 10424 Yards, 57 TD, 51 INT = 80.3 QB Rating

16. Matthew Stafford: 22/45 (49%), 2-20-0 -- 566/962, 6544 Yards, 35 TD, 27 INT = 79.9 QB Rating

20. Jay Cutler: 40/91 (44%), 13-27-0 -- 778/1324, 9127 Yards, 58 TD, 54 INT = 77.4 QB Rating

23. Cam Newton: 12/32 (38%), 3-9-0 -- 218/384, 2841 Yards, 16 TD, 16 INT = 76.7 QB Rating

24. Josh Freeman: 24/56 (43%), 8-16-0 -- 492/836, 5415 Yards, 32 TD, 29 INT = 76.4 QB Rating

27. Andy Dalton: 13/34 (38%), 2-11-0 -- 250/437, 2898 Yards, 12 TD, 14 INT = 73.2 QB Rating

29. Matt Cassel: 19/66 (29%), 3-16-0 -- 338/569, 3421 Yards, 20 TD, 22 INT = 72.2 QB Rating

30. Alex Smith: 33/76 (43%), 11-22-0 -- 576/1007, 6094 Yards, 37 TD, 37 INT = 71.9 QB Rating

32. Mark Sanchez: 28/67 (42%), 10-18-0 -- 460/826, 5183 Yards, 24 TD, 28 INT = 70.2 QB Rating

 

The average number of attempts amongst all active QBs (who have attempted at least 1 pass in the NFL) against playoff teams is 303 (Flacco has way more at 1384 attempts, the only players with more are the same list of players who have more completed games against playoff teams I listed above, and Philip Rivers).

 

The average QB Rating against playoff teams by all active QBs is an 81.2, which Matt Ryan is actually below.

 

Continuing a little further with the Matt Ryan comparison, Ryan has 37.1% of his attempts against playoff teams, while Flacco has 48.4% of his attempts against playoff teams.

 

If Ryan had thrown the same percentage of his passes against playoff teams as Flacco has, and at the same efficiency as he has played against those teams in the past, you could adjust his stats accordingly:

 

Against playoff teams:

815/1367, 8619 Yards, 52 TD, 33 INT = 80.7 QB Rating

 

Against non-playoff teams:

947/1458, 11150 Yards, 79 TD, 34 INT = 96.4 QB Rating

 

Total career stats:

1762/2825, 19769 Yards, 131 TD, 67 INT = 88.8 QB Rating

 

As compared to his actual career stats:

1779/2825, 20197 Yards, 136 TD, 67 INT = 90.5 QB Rating

 

When you look at it in those terms, it's clear that Ryan's stats have been aided a little bit by playing against weaker teams.  This isn't considering defensive rankings of opponents, which Flacco also has played the tougher schedule in those terms as well.  Plus, Ryan plays most than half his games in a dome.

 

Looking into the ranking of the passing defense of their opponents, Flacco has played 7 games in his career against the #1 ranked pass defense.  Ryan has played just 1.

Flacco has also played an additional 9 games against the 2nd and 3rd ranked pass defenses, for a total of 16 games against top 3 pass defenses.  Ryan has played just 5.

In total, Flacco has played 40 games against top 10 pass defenses, while Ryan has played 25.  This has to be considered as well when you look at any statistical difference between the two.

 

Notes: An opponent counts as a "playoff team" if they made the playoffs in the year the QB played against them.  This counts both regular season & post-season games against those opponents.  To qualify for any of the rankings, a QB has to have completed at least 32 games in their career (against any teams, not just against playoff teams).  Basically, I'm only looking for players with 2 full seasons worth of experience.  My only criteria for whether a QB is credited with a "completed game" is that they be the QB with the most attempts in the game, they don't necessarily have to be the starter... So for instance if a QB is injured after 3 attempts and someone else comes in and finishes the game, this game doesn't count for the starter.

[Ravensfan23]

it will definitely be interesting......but I know this will come as a surprise but my money is on the steelers....we are not used to playing second fiddle....the ravens championship has lit a fire under our rear end and it will rocket us to our 7th championship

 

lol I feel bad for them because this division is so hard...if they played in another division they would have a chance

 

Ben has those lists too....do you want me to throw up all the QB's that have been to three superbowls....joe's not on that one

 

I would expect you to say that and I actually think you guys will respond well. But then again I expected you guys to respond to the Tebow playoff loss, which it seem you did before the injuries. So we'll see how things play out. You guys have a history of injuries mainly to your QB and I'm not sure that these Steelers team is built to handle the 2-3 game loss of Ben like in years past. But as all ways, we'll see.

 

In your views, what makes Ben better then Joe? Is it numbers, accomplishments, SuperBowls, Clutchness, or something else in you opinion?

[SteelersProphet]

I would expect you to say that and I actually think you guys will respond well. But then again I expected you guys to respond to the Tebow playoff loss, which it seem you did before the injuries. So we'll see how things play out. You guys have a history of injuries mainly to your QB and I'm not sure that these Steelers team is built to handle the 2-3 game loss of Ben like in years past. But as all ways, we'll see.

 

In your views, what makes Ben better then Joe? Is it numbers, accomplishments, SuperBowls, Clutchness, or something else in you opinion?

I think its close.......so I don't think its a ridiculous opinion to say joe is better

 

but in my opinion joe's superpower is being cool under pressure and the deep ball

and Ben's superpower is being able to shake defenders and throw on the run......and I cant recall any QB who plays quite like him. so I feel that joe is the better prototypical QB while ben has more intangible skill.....so if I feel they are close in production I would give the edge to ben for being special

[izvoodoo]

 

OK, it took a lot longer than I expected but I have completed at least a decent portion of potential research into the statistics of QBs against playoff teams.  Here's a write-up of some of my thoughts and findings:

 

The only active QBs with more games against playoff teams than Joe Flacco (44) are guys who have been starters in this league for at least 4 years longer than him (Peyton Manning, Matt Hasselbeck, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, and Carson Palmer).

 

Flacco has played the third highest percentage of his career games against playoff teams (48%).  The only guys with a higher percentage are Matthew Stafford (49%) and Byron Leftwich (48%).  For comparison's sake, Matt Ryan has played the third lowest percentage of games against playoff games (35%), with only Matt Cassel (29%) and Trent Edwards (27%) being lower.

 

The average percentage of completed games played against playoff teams out of all active QBs is 41%.

 

Flacco also has a 23-21 (0.523 winning percentage) career record against playoff teams, while the total amongst all active QBs is 483-858-3 (0.360 winning percentage).  Matt Ryan has a losing record against playoff teams (12-16, or 0.429 winning percentage).

 

Out of Flacco's 1384 career attempts against playoff teams, he has an 84.0 QB Rating.  This ranks 7th:

 

1. Aaron Rodgers: 37/86 (43%), 20-17-0 -- 892/1342, 10398 Yards, 75 TD, 20 INT = 102.2 QB Rating

2. Tom Brady: 80/196 (41%), 52-28-0 -- 1881/2980, 21210 Yards, 141 TD, 64 INT = 91.2 QB Rating

3. Drew Brees: 65/177 (37%), 31-34-0 -- 1627/2571, 18672 Yards, 130 TD, 73 INT = 90.1 QB Rating

4. Tony Romo: 38/96 (40%), 14-24-0 -- 823/1320, 10101 Yards, 67 TD, 43 INT = 89.3 QB Rating

5. Peyton Manning: 98/239 (41%), 47-51-0 -- 2312/3651, 26785 Yards, 175 TD, 124 INT = 87.2 QB Rating

6. Matt Schaub: 33/83 (40%), 11-22-0 -- 782/1242, 9054 Yards, 45 TD, 38 INT = 84.3 QB Rating

7. Joe Flacco: 44/92 (48%), 23-21-0 -- 821/1384, 9695 Yards, 60 TD, 37 INT = 84 QB Rating

 

Some other relevant or popular QBs and where they fell on the list (out of 33 qualifying players):

 

10. Ben Roethlisberger: 58/141 (41%), 31-27-0 -- 1116/1838, 13691 Yards, 76 TD, 63 INT = 83.2 QB Rating

12. Eli Manning: 64/145 (44%), 26-38-0 -- 1259/2153, 14726 Yards, 101 TD, 65 INT = 82.4 QB Rating

13. Matt Ryan: 28/81 (35%), 12-16-0 -- 625/1048, 6608 Yards, 40 TD, 25 INT = 80.8 QB Rating

14. Philip Rivers: 42/119 (35%), 14-28-0 -- 858/1440, 10424 Yards, 57 TD, 51 INT = 80.3 QB Rating

16. Matthew Stafford: 22/45 (49%), 2-20-0 -- 566/962, 6544 Yards, 35 TD, 27 INT = 79.9 QB Rating

20. Jay Cutler: 40/91 (44%), 13-27-0 -- 778/1324, 9127 Yards, 58 TD, 54 INT = 77.4 QB Rating

23. Cam Newton: 12/32 (38%), 3-9-0 -- 218/384, 2841 Yards, 16 TD, 16 INT = 76.7 QB Rating

24. Josh Freeman: 24/56 (43%), 8-16-0 -- 492/836, 5415 Yards, 32 TD, 29 INT = 76.4 QB Rating

27. Andy Dalton: 13/34 (38%), 2-11-0 -- 250/437, 2898 Yards, 12 TD, 14 INT = 73.2 QB Rating

29. Matt Cassel: 19/66 (29%), 3-16-0 -- 338/569, 3421 Yards, 20 TD, 22 INT = 72.2 QB Rating

30. Alex Smith: 33/76 (43%), 11-22-0 -- 576/1007, 6094 Yards, 37 TD, 37 INT = 71.9 QB Rating

32. Mark Sanchez: 28/67 (42%), 10-18-0 -- 460/826, 5183 Yards, 24 TD, 28 INT = 70.2 QB Rating

 

The average number of attempts amongst all active QBs (who have attempted at least 1 pass in the NFL) against playoff teams is 303 (Flacco has way more at 1384 attempts, the only players with more are the same list of players who have more completed games against playoff teams I listed above, and Philip Rivers).

 

The average QB Rating against playoff teams by all active QBs is an 81.2, which Matt Ryan is actually below.

 

Continuing a little further with the Matt Ryan comparison, Ryan has 37.1% of his attempts against playoff teams, while Flacco has 48.4% of his attempts against playoff teams.

 

If Ryan had thrown the same percentage of his passes against playoff teams as Flacco has, and at the same efficiency as he has played against those teams in the past, you could adjust his stats accordingly:

 

Against playoff teams:

815/1367, 8619 Yards, 52 TD, 33 INT = 80.7 QB Rating

 

Against non-playoff teams:

947/1458, 11150 Yards, 79 TD, 34 INT = 96.4 QB Rating

 

Total career stats:

1762/2825, 19769 Yards, 131 TD, 67 INT = 88.8 QB Rating

 

As compared to his actual career stats:

1779/2825, 20197 Yards, 136 TD, 67 INT = 90.5 QB Rating

 

When you look at it in those terms, it's clear that Ryan's stats have been aided a little bit by playing against weaker teams.  This isn't considering defensive rankings of opponents, which Flacco also has played the tougher schedule in those terms as well.  Plus, Ryan plays most than half his games in a dome.

 

Looking into the ranking of the passing defense of their opponents, Flacco has played 7 games in his career against the #1 ranked pass defense.  Ryan has played just 1.

Flacco has also played an additional 9 games against the 2nd and 3rd ranked pass defenses, for a total of 16 games against top 3 pass defenses.  Ryan has played just 5.

In total, Flacco has played 40 games against top 10 pass defenses, while Ryan has played 25.  This has to be considered as well when you look at any statistical difference between the two.

 

Notes: An opponent counts as a "playoff team" if they made the playoffs in the year the QB played against them.  This counts both regular season & post-season games against those opponents.  To qualify for any of the rankings, a QB has to have completed at least 32 games in their career (against any teams, not just against playoff teams).  Basically, I'm only looking for players with 2 full seasons worth of experience.  My only criteria for whether a QB is credited with a "completed game" is that they be the QB with the most attempts in the game, they don't necessarily have to be the starter... So for instance if a QB is injured after 3 attempts and someone else comes in and finishes the game, this game doesn't count for the starter.

 

You should just make a thread with this.  It's just worthy of it's own thread.

 

Did you do this in excel?

 

Tony Romo being fourth interests me.

[callahan09]

You know, the passer rating formula STILL ticks me off somewhat.  I've been trying for over a year to come up with a version that makes more sense to me and hopefully that the rest of the world could agree on, but I always end up giving up after a certain point... I may have to go back to that project some day.  Anyway, look at this:

 

6. Matt Schaub: 33/83 (40%), 11-22-0 -- 782/1242, 9054 Yards, 45 TD, 38 INT = 84.3 QB Rating

7. Joe Flacco: 44/92 (48%), 23-21-0 -- 821/1384, 9695 Yards, 60 TD, 37 INT = 84 QB Rating

 

Keep in mind that QB Rating is an efficiency rating, so it's about rates/percentages, etc.  That's why it's not inappropriate to do a stat extrapolation out to the same number of attempts to be able to get some real meaning behind the differences in QB Rating from one stat line to another.

 

So, extrapolating Schaub's numbers out to the same number of attempts as Flacco, he has:

 

871/1384, 10089 Yards, 50 TD, 42 INT = 84.3 QB Rating

 

Would anybody honestly rather have that performance over Flacco's?  Flacco's rating is lower, despite having 10 more touchdowns and 5 fewer interceptions!  That's a +15 swing in TD:INT differential, and that is somehow worth less than 394 yards (about a quarter of a yard per attempt) and 50 extra completions (about 3.6 points higher completion percentage)?  The average per-game attempts between the two of them is 34 attempts, so that means it comes out to about 1 completion per game.  Yeah, no thanks, I'd rather have the touchdowns and fewer turnovers.

 

The perspective that makes the most sense to me is that given a sample of over 1000 pass attempts, I can either have 394 yards or 10 touchdowns, and I can have either 50 incompletions or 5 interceptions.

 

Personally, I'd rather have the touchdowns, and I'd rather not have the interceptions, given those choices, and that's a pretty easy choice.  For me, I find it hard to accept that someone would honestly prefer a Schaub-like performance over a Flacco-like performance on those terms, and that's where I find the passer rating formula flawed... because it says that a couple of yards and a slightly higher completion percentage is better than throwing more touchdowns and fewer interceptions, and I just can't agree with that.

[admartian]

Not surprised.

 

Ben and Joe can each swap Superbowls year after year for until they both retire, and they'd still get the "ummm.. and butt...." reactions by the media and dumb "Average Joe" fan. 

 

There are certain players that will unfairly get critique/praise.

[izvoodoo]

Not surprised.

 

Ben and Joe can each swap Superbowls year after year for until they both retire, and they'd still get the "ummm.. and butt...." reactions by the media and dumb "Average Joe" fan. 

 

There are certain players that will unfairly get critique/praise.

I'm pretty sure if you win 3 superbowls you get respect.

[Guest RBates]

I don't think 4 TDs and 2 INTs, with a rating over 95 in 3 out of 4 games, in the two previous postseasons are that bad.  Also, since he was laughed off the stage for having the audacity to call himself a top tier QB after those two postseasons, it would be hard to make a case for him being overrated there.

 

He averaged about 170.2 yards a game with eight TDs and eight picks.  With two fumbles.  Not sure what stats you are looking at. These stats reflect all four previous post seasons. 

 

So again if people want to call him overrated, i think this would justify the cause.

[Guest RBates]

You can assume whatever you wish just as you can simply ignore the rest of the post that mentioned in 7 of 8 games he had a qb rating of over 95.

So again if you want to assume the rest of his games were bad im guessing you're willing to admit that all of the previous 8 playoff games for manning and Brady were bad.

Who cares was his QBR? He was he was 8/8 (td's, picks) fumbled twice and averaged 170 yards a game prior to this amazing past year.  If people call him overrated then its because of what they have seen prior to this year. 

 

Why is this so hard to understand?