Joe Flacco called overrated on NFL.com

[hawkprey]

 

On a side note, say Flacco was the #1 player on the list. He probably would've thrown 5000 yards and 30+ Tds but we might've not won the SB because we wouldn't have been a balanced team. Ill take Flacco being a middle of the pack QB any day if it means we win the SB. But if you think winning a SB makes Flacco the best, then i guess Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, and Brad Johnson are better than Dan Marino. And btw i agree with your assessment of Brady, I was never a fan when he won his SBs, but I do think he top player now, but back then i probably would've ranked him as I rank Flacco today.

Two things:

I hate when people use the exception to the rule and act like it disproves the rule. It's not a mystery why Dan Marino doesn't have a Super Bowl ring. He didn't play well in the postseason. And when he did reach one, he had to play a better QB in Joe Montana. Lack of a Super Bowl win is Marino's biggest criticism. 

 

But when you want to ask "Who is the best backup-quality QB who bounced around the league", Dilfer is going to be above his peers because of that Super Bowl run. So it does matter in either case.

 

Second, you value passer rating / stats so highly that you consider an absence of them to mean "middle of the pack" even though you say Flacco could easily put up those numbers if he chose to. That's nonsense. You can't grade a player lower because they exercised a different possibility. If yards and TDs are your rubric, either: Flacco can't put up those numbers, so he's not that good; or he can put up those numbers, therefore he is that good.

[MrPlankton]

Anyone who uses the whole Flacco = Dilfer or the SB win doesn't mean anything because of guys like Dilfer or Johnson needs to stop posting or stop watching football.

 

Dilfer's case has already been explained so many times that it's getting ridiculous.

[PurpleCorsair]

Guys like Shuab, who many are saying sucks, posted better numbers than Flacco across the board. If you wanna use the not having an elite receiver argument next year, i'll take it. But Boldin is pro-bowl caliber player who was under utilized by cam cameron. There are plenty of QBs that would've killed to have Boldin and Torrey Smith. Thats a terrible argument.

 

If the recievers are being underutilized then that will also affect the QB's numbers.... It's not like Joe throws the ball and runs the routes.

[ellicottraven]

For all the criticism Dilfer gets, Ben's first SB was far worse as a QB! How come calls that nincompoop for how bad he used to be....

In any case, I honestly think Joe Flacco is the best QB in the league right now along with Rodgers. But, he has better skill sets than Rodgers does, so I think in a couple of years, Flacco will be regarded the best QB in the league... just wait and see my prediction come true people.

[easternshore97]

Joe is about to be top 4 or 5 in Jaws' Best QB countdown so don't worry about it

[callahan09]

For my next project, I intend to do a comprehensive analysis of every active QB against playoff teams (both regular season and post-season games against teams that made the play-offs in the season they played against them).  This could be interesting.  Stay tuned, it'll be at least tomorrow by the time I finish.

[hawkprey]

Let me explain why Ravens fans like me make a stink about how their QB is judged. We feel that Flacco is often given a poor light. As you know, the way people interpret what they see can be heavily biased, and wind up sounding completely different. Here's an example from a random source. This is a play-by-play of a game last season: written by someone who has no stake in either team, but was rooting for QB2's team and against QB1's.

 

QB1

Completions:

-QB took a deep shot and somehow receiver managed to hold on after bobbling it and taking a hit.

-QB decided to throw it up to receiver with bump and run coverage.

-QB found receiver with defender on coverage and because defender is awful and it's a touchdown.

-Five wide and QB floated a pass up under pressure and managed to complete it to receiver for X yards downfield. Horrible coverage by defender.

-QB just heaved one up deep to a wide open receiver.

 

Incompletions:

QB tried to go deep to receiver but he was covered by defender.

QB wanted receiver on a slant but the ball was too far ahead of him and he could only get one hand on it.

QB decided to try one deep for receiver along the sidelines but it was too long.

They spread five wide and QB tried to hit receiver but he dropped it.

 

Sack:

The pressure converged on the QB and he couldn't get away while the pocket was collapsing on him.

 

QB2:

Completions:

QB dropped it in to receiver and he got all the way up to the [X yard line].

An awesome throw to receiver led to his [...] breaking a tackle.

Another dime to receiver yields 5-15 more yards and another first down. QB is just gunning that ball around.

QB with a dime down the field and receiver made a hell of a play.

QB dropped a dime to receiver for 20-30 yards down the sideline.

 

Incompletions:

QB went deep downfield and receiver had it in his grasp but couldn't hang on. That's a big drop on what was a perfect pass.

QB wanted receiver but the safety moved over and made a great play tipping it away.

A throw inside to receiver fell incomplete.

QB nearly found receiver but the throw was too high.

Sack:

QB rolled right and found no one, deciding to just [take a sack].

 

 

You get the idea. On the one hand you see a quarterback who is particularly inept. Rather than doing and succeeding, he "tries" and "manages". He is a beneficiary of defensive mistakes and great catches.

 

The other quarterback has remarkable accuracy despite great defensive plays. Though both receiving groups drop balls, it seems that QB1 "tries" to make throws that are inaccurate while QB2 throws perfect strikes that are just dropped. QB1 is unable to escape sacks, and QB2 is sacked when he decides to be sacked.

 

I know you've guessed that Flacco is one of the QB's described here and I know you can tell which one.

 

 

NFL fans have largely developed this belief that high-arching throws aren't credible passes and line-drives are. Hence the generous description of Colin Kaepernick's throws here. But line-drives are more a result of poor ability to anticipate receivers working their way open and an O-line creating a passing lane. The high-arching throws give the receiver an easier time to track the ball, and allow the QB to get the ball out faster and lead the receiver. Even a "jump ball" is a positive recognition of a mismatch. Regardless of how impressive it looks - isn't the point of a quarterback to get the most out of his receivers?

[flynismo]

For my next project, I intend to do a comprehensive analysis of every active QB against playoff teams (both regular season and post-season games against teams that made the play-offs in the season they played against them).  This could be interesting.  Stay tuned, it'll be at least tomorrow by the time I finish.

Do it, for better or worse, I'd love to see the results. I suspect Peyton's stats against only top defenses will look very similar to Joe's

[beanfigger]

For my next project, I intend to do a comprehensive analysis of every active QB against playoff teams (both regular season and post-season games against teams that made the play-offs in the season they played against them).  This could be interesting.  Stay tuned, it'll be at least tomorrow by the time I finish.

 

Don't forget to include the W/L record in those game in your analysis.  I feel like early in Joe's career, we only ever lost to the good teams, but in more recent seasons it has been the opposite.  He's done much better against the good teams, while he's left his stinkers for the bottom feeders.

[Bravens292]

How can he be overrated when he never gets credit to begin with. Makes no sense. If anything, he is underrated.

[Tiz]

How can he be overrated when he never gets credit to begin with. Makes no sense. If anything, he is underrated.

Logic at its best.

The fanbase still is split over him being good, moderate, mediocre, or lucky and we are the ones who will rate him higher than the general media.
So yes it's amusing to hear him called overrated when people cling to bayless nickname and call him flukeo

[Gordo52]

For my next project, I intend to do a comprehensive analysis of every active QB against playoff teams (both regular season and post-season games against teams that made the play-offs in the season they played against them). This could be interesting. Stay tuned, it'll be at least tomorrow by the time I finish.

You sir, are the star master. +1 to you!

[beanfigger]

How can he be overrated when he never gets credit to begin with. Makes no sense. If anything, he is underrated.

 

Logic at its best.

The fanbase still is split over him being good, moderate, mediocre, or lucky and we are the ones who will rate him higher than the general media.
So yes it's amusing to hear him called overrated when people cling to bayless nickname and call him flukeo

 

Since when did we allow rational arguments and logic into these debates?

[hawkprey]

I know I think he's underrated too, but did everyone really have to pump up his NFL.com overrated/underrated numbers so drastically? 

[Ravensfan23]

For my next project, I intend to do a comprehensive analysis of every active QB against playoff teams (both regular season and post-season games against teams that made the play-offs in the season they played against them).  This could be interesting.  Stay tuned, it'll be at least tomorrow by the time I finish.

 

I'm willing to go on record early and say that project will expose some "Elite" QBs for being, front runners as Skip Bayless likes to say. How many times will guys like Brady, Brees and Manning get a past when going against better defenses?

 

If people really watch Drew Brees, this guy makes some bone headed mistakes, but he passes the ball 50 times a game so something good has to happen right? I don't know the numbers but Flacco performs really well against Brady, Manning and Brees. I can't wait to see the matchup with ARod this year.

[Ravensfan23]

The reason why Joe Flacco is overrated is because the people who wrongly bashed this guy when he was drafted and starting proving them wrong from day one, now can't get over themselves enough to say "I Was WRONG".

 

Flacco is now finally starting to get some of the credit he deserves and it kills them. I'm it's getting to the point where their logic is so flawed they seem uneducated. When you hear things like, Flacco will struggle because the defense won't be studs this year and he won't be able to match point for point with other offense. Then you actually do some homework and see that the defense wasn't studs last year and the Flacco's offense produced 31.7 points per game at home last year. I don't carer who you are, if you are putting up nearly 32 points you will outscore a lot of teams. By comparison the Pats offense produced 35 points per game at home. So the smart thing to do would be to question, why the Ravens offense is so great at home but struggles on the road. Yet people just make foolish statements that imo proves they do little to no homework when disscussing the Ravens.

 

It's gonna be so funny to see Flacco explode this year without Ray and Ed and still hear foolish National Talking heads try and explain how Flacco benefits from having a great defense. Or instead of getting credit for developing his young WRs, something that Brady could never do by the way, people will say....Well if it wasn't for guys like Smith, Doss, Reed, Thompson, Pitta and Dickson stepping up, Flacco wouldn't be nearly as good.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Flacco is behind RGIII on the list. How is that over rating him??? If anything it's a slap in the face.

People are going to say he's overrated in that they feel this rating is based on Joe consistently being the guy he was in the playoffs when he hasn't shown that throughout his career. The problem is, NO ONE IN HISTORY has ever played consistently at that high of a level. It's darn near impossible. If he were actually being rated based just on the playoffs he would have to be rated #1. Him being rated lower shows that it does take his whole career into account.

The key for me in the argument is Cam Cameron. I've always seen the potential in Joe, but no QB in the league could put up gaudy stats in Cams system. With a good D and run game is it effective enough to win games? Sure. By not taking chances u basically assure yourself a chance to be in it and I think that was the whole idea. Don't shoot yourself in the foot and just make the plays late. But it clearly held Joe back - and the sample we have with Caldwell is astronomical. Not just with Joe playing better, but every offensive player performed better under Caldwell. It's a small sample size, but definitely a more accurate sample of what Joes future looks like.

He now has the system built around him to ft his game - th thing that allows the top QBs to be elite. Joe will have his best statistical season to date. Even if his yardage and TD totals don't skyrocket , he will achieve at least his normal levels but doing it much more efficiently I.e. higher completion % and less throws less turnovers.

[SteelersProphet]

How can he be overrated when he never gets credit to begin with. Makes no sense. If anything, he is underrated.

he is rated pretty high on the top 100....higher than ben which for one I disagree with....so that's a pretty big heaping helping of credit

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

he is rated pretty high on the top 100....higher than ben which for one I disagree with....so that's a pretty big heaping helping of credit

 If it was based on entire career I'd agree with you, but since the opinions are based on last year and a projection for this year then I do think Flacco deserves to be ahead of Ben. Ben was playing a very high, almost MVP level, but injuries have to be considered. Regardless of how good you are, if you're not on the field for your team enough then you're just not as effective of a player.

[Ravensfan23]

he is rated pretty high on the top 100....higher than ben which for one I disagree with....so that's a pretty big heaping helping of credit

 

The list is flawed. Not because of personal rankings, but because it's a flawed system on how the votes are produced. Over the last 3 years, there has been plenty of big named players saying they don't even know who votes on the list. Then there are guys that say the list is passed out at the pro bowl, but just like anything else, vets pass the list onto the first time pro bowlers and make them fill it out.

 

So as great as the concept is, it's flawed because you have players that haven't even done anything in the league voting. It's a popularity contest. I promise you that you can watch ESPN or NFL Network and based on who they talk about the most in a positive light will be the higher ranked guys. Despite how hard the NFL Network tries to say it's not, this is a media and stat driven list. There is no way that if this list was based on 2012 performances, that Larry Fitzgerald should be on this list, let alone 22nd. But because he's widely viewed as one of the best by the media, it's easy to over look his stats, or the bad performances he had this year(even though they were QB aided). Guys like Troy P, Ed Reed, Jones Drew, Fitz and others made it off their reputations.

 

Then you have a guy like Dwayne Bowe. How do he make the list yet a guy like Torrey Smith doesn't? Torrey had better numbers, more impact, and much more clutch moments in 2012. Everything about Torrey Smith says he was a better player then D. Bowe last year. So how does Bowe make the list over him? How does a guys like Luke Kuechly and Lance Briggs make the list over a guy like Lawarence Timmons who is a stud in the middle of a top 5 defense? Reason being, if you ask many fans outside of the AFC North who Timmons is, they won't know unless they are FSU fans.

[SteelersProphet]

The list is flawed. Not because of personal rankings, but because it's a flawed system on how the votes are produced. Over the last 3 years, there has been plenty of big named players saying they don't even know who votes on the list. Then there are guys that say the list is passed out at the pro bowl, but just like anything else, vets pass the list onto the first time pro bowlers and make them fill it out.

 

So as great as the concept is, it's flawed because you have players that haven't even done anything in the league voting. It's a popularity contest. I promise you that you can watch ESPN or NFL Network and based on who they talk about the most in a positive light will be the higher ranked guys. Despite how hard the NFL Network tries to say it's not, this is a media and stat driven list. There is no way that if this list was based on 2012 performances, that Larry Fitzgerald should be on this list, let alone 22nd. But because he's widely viewed as one of the best by the media, it's easy to over look his stats, or the bad performances he had this year(even though they were QB aided). Guys like Troy P, Ed Reed, Jones Drew, Fitz and others made it off their reputations.

 

Then you have a guy like Dwayne Bowe. How do he make the list yet a guy like Torrey Smith doesn't? Torrey had better numbers, more impact, and much more clutch moments in 2012. Everything about Torrey Smith says he was a better player then D. Bowe last year. So how does Bowe make the list over him? How does a guys like Luke Kuechly and Lance Briggs make the list over a guy like Lawarence Timmons who is a stud in the middle of a top 5 defense? Reason being, if you ask many fans outside of the AFC North who Timmons is, they won't know unless they are FSU fans.

I agree that this list isn't a perfect rating system but if your right and this list is based of reputation then the fact that flacco is rated very high on this list shows he is rated highly by people.......so everyone saying "how can he be overrated when no one gives him any credit" are wrong.....because obviously someone somewhere rates him higher than 99.9% of all NFL players....I just think its time you guys stopped the us against the world attitude because guess what....your the champs....you cant play the "we get no respect" card anymore

 

 If it was based on entire career I'd agree with you, but since the opinions are based on last year and a projection for this year then I do think Flacco deserves to be ahead of Ben. Ben was playing a very high, almost MVP level, but injuries have to be considered. Regardless of how good you are, if you're not on the field for your team enough then you're just not as effective of a player.

he won the superbowl twice in seasons where he didn't play all 16 games...so that's pretty effective

[easternshore97]

he is rated pretty high on the top 100....higher than ben which for one I disagree with....so that's a pretty big heaping helping of credit

Joe starts ALL of his games. That has to count for at least something.

 

You never know how many games you will get out of Ben. And then when he gets injured, Steelers coaching staff has him back on the field for meaningless games, he plays at 67%, as a result his numbers take a hit, and he doesn't heal up for the following week's game.

 

Soooooooo.....I think either way you slice and dice it, under that protocol, Joe will likely always get ranked and should get ranked higher than Ben. It would be a tough debate going forward because Joe has quietly closed the gap

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I agree that this list isn't a perfect rating system but if your right and this list is based of reputation then the fact that flacco is rated very high on this list shows he is rated highly by people.......so everyone saying "how can he be overrated when no one gives him any credit" are wrong.....because obviously someone somewhere rates him higher than 99.9% of all NFL players....I just think its time you guys stopped the us against the world attitude because guess what....your the champs....you cant play the "we get no respect" card anymore

 

he won the superbowl twice in seasons where he didn't play all 16 games...so that's pretty effective

 

And what does that have to do with 2012 or 2013? He missed last year and they didn't make it to the playoffs.

 

Besides, they won the 1st Superbowl DESPITE bens best efforts to lose the game. 123 yds, 2 interceptions. Not very effective.

[SteelersProphet]

Joe starts ALL of his games. That has to count for at least something.

 

You never know how many games you will get out of Ben. And then when he gets injured, Steelers coaching staff has him back on the field for meaningless games, he plays at 67%, as a result his numbers take a hit, and he doesn't heal up for the following week's game.

 

Soooooooo.....I think either way you slice and dice it, under that protocol, Joe will likely always get ranked and should get ranked higher than Ben. It would be a tough debate going forward because Joe has quietly closed the gap

ive said before that ben and joe are in the same class...along with eli

 

but Ben has been to three superbowls...the last one in 2010....so not that long ago....joe has just won his first...and at the same point in their careers ben had two.....so IMO ben has the edge right now

[SteelersProphet]

And what does that have to do with 2012 or 2013? He missed last year and they didn't make it to the playoffs.

 

Besides, they won the 1st Superbowl DESPITE bens best efforts to lose the game. 123 yds, 2 interceptions. Not very effective.

wow....this old chestnut.....for one we would have never made it to that superbowl without him....period...second it was his second year....how did joe do in his second year.....hmmmm..I don't think he won a superbowl...so I would call ben's second year much more effective then joe's

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

ive said before that ben and joe are in the same class...along with eli

 

but Ben has been to three superbowls...the last one in 2010....so not that long ago....joe has just won his first...and at the same point in their careers ben had two.....so IMO ben has the edge right now

 

 

wow....this old chestnut.....for one we would have never made it to that superbowl without him....period...second it was his second year....how did joe do in his second year.....hmmmm..I don't think he won a superbowl...so I would call ben's second year much more effective then joe's

 

Ok then under that same logic Flacco should be higher rated on this list! You cant use the argument to support Ben in that case, and then ignore the same logic and say Ben deserves to be higher rated now.

[izvoodoo]

ive said before that ben and joe are in the same class...along with eli

 

but Ben has been to three superbowls...the last one in 2010....so not that long ago....joe has just won his first...and at the same point in their careers ben had two.....so IMO ben has the edge right now

I for one take no offense saying Ben is a better player than Joe.

 

But from your lets just talk about next year, are you scared personally of Joe flacco's play next year when the Ravens are playing the steelers?

 

Again no wrong answer, just interested in your thoughts :)

[easternshore97]

ive said before that ben and joe are in the same class...along with eli

 

but Ben has been to three superbowls...the last one in 2010....so not that long ago....joe has just won his first...and at the same point in their careers ben had two.....so IMO ben has the edge right now

It's a team game I should remind you as Ben won his 1st in a game where [in my Skip Bayless voice] he had the worst QB rating of ALL TIME.

 

Joe has played in 3 AFC Championship games. Without sounding like a broken record, it's a team game. Perhaps Ben had a better team which is why in his 3 AFC Championship games, he's gone on to 3 Super Bowls

 

But it's hard to give a guy that plays 9 or 10 games a year, the nod over the guy that plays all 16.

[SteelersProphet]

Ok then under that same logic Flacco should be higher rated on this list! You cant use the argument to support Ben in that case, and then ignore the same logic and say Ben deserves to be higher rated now.

 

 

I for one take no offense saying Ben is a better player than Joe.

 

But from your lets just talk about next year, are you scared personally of Joe flacco's play next year when the Ravens are playing the steelers?

 

Again no wrong answer, just interested in your thoughts :)

 

ill be honest im confused by both these comments......BOLD'S statement I don't get at all...it seems to me you guys think I said something that im not seeing......but ill rephrase my point just to clarify

 

all I was saying with those two comments is Ben and Joe are in the same class this year.......but bens pedigree puts him over the edge because he is a consistent champion where as joe has yet to accomplish that....

 

and the rest of my comment about bens second year was an answer to this old argument that bens second superbowl doesn't count because he had a bad game....brought up by BOLD...so I would like you to clarify what you think I said

 

on a side note....of course I think joe can beat us next year....but I also think Ben can beat you guys

[easternshore97]

ive said before that ben and joe are in the same class...along with eli

 

but Ben has been to three superbowls...the last one in 2010....so not that long ago....joe has just won his first...and at the same point in their careers ben had two.....so IMO ben has the edge right now

For the record, 2008 Ben is my all-time favorite and most feared QB of all time. He could make the throws, and he could make drive sustaining plays when the protection broke down.

 

But here he is going into his 10th year and he is still taking hits that he shouldn't be taking that are resulting in injuries and missed time.