Over/Under rated Ravens of all time

[CARavensFan]

one of the at worst missed tackles forced in the league actually.

 

Is that just your opinion or do you have something evidence-wise to back up that?

[GrimCoconut]

Well I can see you're argument based on Rice as a pure runner, though I'm thinking of the top RBs in the league as a complete player and the impact he can have in all phases.

Rice did have some bad runs, but I feel like more RBs will have those; the defense gets paid just like the offense. However, for every little to no gain runs he has, I feel like there is a play where a guy bounces off him or he scoots away when no things he should be able to or he pulls a Hey Diddle, Diddle move.

All right. I need to disagree with some of this.

First of all the "Hey diddle diddle move" is more of him catching the pass than him running from my perspective.

Second of all I can't remember how many times I screamed with frustration because Ray went down with little or no contact. It's beyond frustrating for me to watch. Most of the the bad runs I've seen from Ray I felt like he tripped himself.

There are definitely better RB out there. Foster is a better RB. He's more complete because he can also catch and run. The difference is that Rice is an elite receiver but Foster is also great. Rice also has overrated hands. I've seen him on multiple occasions drop the ball. I have no tally but I know it happened more than a few.

[CARavensFan]

All right. I need to disagree with some of this.

First of all the "Hey diddle diddle move" is more of him catching the pass than him running from my perspective.

Second of all I can't remember how many times I screamed with frustration because Ray went down with little or no contact. It's beyond frustrating for me to watch. Most of the the bad runs I've seen from Ray I felt like he tripped himself.

There are definitely better RB out there. Foster is a better RB. He's more complete because he can also catch and run. The difference is that Rice is an elite receiver but Foster is also great. Rice also has overrated hands. I've seen him on multiple occasions drop the ball. I have no tally but I know it happened more than a few.

 

I was never making the argument for Rice as the best RB in the league, I can think of several I would take over him right now.

 

My whole point was first that when I talk about RBs being the best in the league I am considering them as the whole package, running, blocking, hands, etc. If you want to debate who is the best runner then its something entirely different.

 

My second point was about Rice coming up, more often than not, at times when you are not expecting it. Yes he does have times where he falls over and doesn't get as many yards as he could, but there are also times when he pulls a Houdini and slips forward for more yards than anyone expects. In many ways he is a boom-or-bust player in that regard.

 

TL:DR - He's he the greatest RB ever? No. Is he very good at what he does and fits what we need/use him for in this offense? Yes.

[GrimCoconut]

I was never making the argument for Rice as the best RB in the league, I can think of several I would take over him right now.

My whole point was first that when I talk about RBs being the best in the league I am considering them as the whole package, running, blocking, hands, etc. If you want to debate who is the best runner then its something entirely different.

My second point was about Rice coming up, more often than not, at times when you are not expecting it. Yes he does have times where he falls over and doesn't get as many yards as he could, but there are also times when he pulls a Houdini and slips forward for more yards than anyone expects. In many ways he is a boom-or-bust player in that regard.

TL:DR - He's he the greatest RB ever? No. Is he very good at what he does and fits what we need/use him for in this offense? Yes.

Peterson, Foster are clearly ahead of him in my eyes. Lynch, Spiller, Martin, Charles, McCoy are also very easily debatable as being better complete players. Lynch, Charles and McCoy especially. I wasn't saying you were saying he's the best. I just meant that as an example with Foster.

I would even consider CJ2K and I know that might be a controversial statement but let me point out something here: we've had a pretty good OL for running the ball. Birk, Yanda and Grubbs have been three staples here for the entire time Rice has been here. In addition to Vonta Leach who had been a boon.

[CARavensFan]

Peterson, Foster are clearly ahead of him in my eyes. Lynch, Spiller, Martin, Charles, McCoy are also very easily debatable as being better complete players. Lynch, Charles and McCoy especially. I wasn't saying you were saying he's the best. I just meant that as an example with Foster.

I would even consider CJ2K and I know that might be a controversial statement but let me point out something here: we've had a pretty good OL for running the ball. Birk, Yanda and Grubbs have been three staples here for the entire time Rice has been here. In addition to Vonta Leach who had been a boon.

 

So then by that count he would be the 7th best RB, so he's not the best in the league, but that's still pretty darn good IMHO.

 

I feel like it almost splitting hairs, there are a few guys I think we'd all say are upgrades over Rice, but there are more than a few that would be definite downgrades as well.

[GrimCoconut]

So then by that count he would be the 7th best RB, so he's not the best in the league, but that's still pretty darn good IMHO.

I feel like it almost splitting hairs, there are a few guys I think we'd all say are upgrades over Rice, but there are more than a few that would be definite downgrades as well.

Oh I never said he sucked or anything but for some Ravens fans they act like he's top 5 and that's very debatable for me. He might be but I just can't blindly proclaim it without some thoughtful discussion with facts. That's my problem. It's not just Ravens fans either. Other teams' fans use him as a reason why Flacco isn't good for some reason. Rice doesn't carry this team. He's a very good player but he doesn't carry us. That's a misconception and that's where my problem is. That's why I call him overrated.

[CARavensFan]

Oh I never said he sucked or anything but for some Ravens fans they act like he's top 5 and that's very debatable for me. He might be but I just can't blindly proclaim it without some thoughtful discussion with facts. That's my problem. It's not just Ravens fans either. Other teams' fans use him as a reason why Flacco isn't good for some reason. Rice doesn't carry this team. He's a very good player but he doesn't carry us. That's a misconception and that's where my problem is. That's why I call him overrated.

Totally understand and I agree, I wasn't blindly making that declaration about Rice. If you notice I made the point that he <b>used</b> to be the guy that drove our offense, when he was first taking over the lead RV role from McGahee (09-10) he was the guy the made the offense go, because we were a run-first team.

Now our offense is driven through Flacco, which makes Rice just another weapon in the system.

[arnie_uk]

Is that just your opinion or do you have something evidence-wise to back up that?

been posted many times especially before we gave him the big deal, I'll try and dig them up. Try and find that old thread even, was littered with stats discrediting what you just said

[arnie_uk]

Ray rice 16 out of 24 running backs in elusive rating per pff. Which is number of missed tackles per touch. 20th out of 22 last yr, 28th out of 29 the year before, was actually third in 2009 but 25 of his 58 missed tackles came on 78 receptions, 33 mt on 254 runs, compare that to say mendenhall who had 29 on 242 rushes and he isn't known for making tacklers miss. He didnt qualify in 2008.

He also is awful at blocking

[CARavensFan]

Ray rice 16 out of 24 running backs in elusive rating per pff. Which is number of missed tackles per touch. 20th out of 22 last yr, 28th out of 29 the year before, was actually third in 2009 but 25 of his 58 missed tackles came on 78 receptions, 33 mt on 254 runs, compare that to say mendenhall who had 29 on 242 rushes and he isn't known for making tacklers miss. He didnt qualify in 2008.

He also is awful at blocking

 

Ok so I will give you then that he isn't as elusive as I thought, so would you rather us not have him on the team at all?

[arnie_uk]

Ok so I will give you then that he isn't as elusive as I thought, so would you rather us not have him on the team at all?

i wouldn't have gave him a big contract no. As evidenced by pierce and Alfred Morris etc, you can hit on running backs a lot easier than other positions. I was in the tag him for 2 years camp, but that's harsh because he is deserving of a long term deal

[beanfigger]

I believe Rice is more valuable to his team than just his production.  If I were hoping to have a huge running game on a particular day, there are a number of backs I'd rather have in the backfield.  He is a better version of Darren Sproles.  Rice seems to make big, game-changing plays when we need it most.  It almost always seems to come in the passing game.  His value is in those plays, and he also brings a good deal of leadership and sets a positive example of how a player is supposed to work, act and live his life.  It's similar to what Boldin gave us.  Replacing Boldin's on the field production might not be too difficult, just as it might not be to replace Rice's numbers, but we lose more than numbers when players like that are gone.  I am very interested to see what Pierce will do with an expanded role, but I for one am sure glad Ray Rice is a Raven, and the people of Baltimore should be glad to have a person like that in their community.

 

Side note:  Warrick Dunn is one of my all time favorite athletes, and it has very little to do with his skills at RB.  I doubt any of his former teammates care what his numbers were, and I'll bet it would be hard to find one who would have preferred not to have him on their team in lieu of a better runner.  He is also one of the greatest examples of what a man is supposed to do when he is given tremendous opportunity, money and fame.  I think Ray Rice fits in that mold, and he's probably a little bit better than Dunn in terms of RB ability.

[arnie_uk]

That's percisily why I qualified that post wwith saying he deserved a long term deal. He earned that money and I'm glad we rewarded him but at the same time I think he's over rated as a runnee but I hope the scheme change will help

[lgcs27288]

I feel like the national media is getting "Skip Bayless-ized", they are saying some ridiculous things to gather attention to themselves.

[Shammy]

Overrated Oher not saying hes terrible but his movie put a lot of expectations he didnt need

 

Underrated Boulware probably the best pure pass rusher in ravens history

[Cville-Raven]

LOL at his reasoning for Ray Lewis alone being overrated. Didn't know they allowed complete and utter morons to write articles on NFL. com.....oh wait

[beanfigger]

That's percisily why I qualified that post wwith saying he deserved a long term deal. He earned that money and I'm glad we rewarded him but at the same time I think he's over rated as a runnee but I hope the scheme change will help

 

I hope it helps, too.  I can realistically see him making 75-85 catches this season.

[Tdot Raven]

underrated - Derrick Mason. 

Definitely not the case for Ravens fans but generally speaking he is overlooked by others. 

[PerpetuallyBored74]

Rice was also hampered by Cam constantly sending him over the right-middle because that's where Yanda is and that's who Cam trusted because of his superior blocking + having Leach in the backfield which gave away to the other defense not only that it was probably going to be a run. but that it would probably be through Yanda's side.

With Caldwell though, you saw Rice & Pierce going right & left, both between the tackles and off tackle, so defenses couldn't anticipate where to best set up and go, and both ran well (if Rice hadn't fumbled, he'd have had a decent post season, as he did have 4 TDs: 2 on runs, 2 on passes).

[arnie_uk]

Rice was also hampered by Cam constantly sending him over the right-middle because that's where Yanda is and that's who Cam trusted because of his superior blocking + having Leach in the backfield which gave away to the other defense not only that it was probably going to be a run. but that it would probably be through Yanda's side.
With Caldwell though, you saw Rice & Pierce going right & left, both between the tackles and off tackle, so defenses couldn't anticipate where to best set up and go, and both ran well (if Rice hadn't fumbled, he'd have had a decent post season, as he did have 4 TDs: 2 on runs, 2 on passes).

if lee evans didnt drop that pass we could have two superbowls. If flacco was injured we wouldn't have won...

Can't play that game to help cherry pick stats and such.