Ravens release then re-sign FB Vonta Leach

[baltravens]

Bajema is a non-factor in the passing game. He was basically only used in heavy/short yardage situations. If you play him instead of Dickson you are only hurting yourself.

Here's an interesting fact on Bajema: He is an inch shorter than Pitta and Dickson, but stronger than the both of them.

 

Although I can't recite all of our special teams' units, I am sure he could help there if called upon.

[5aiah]

Yes. This right here. Nobody is going to really trust Billy to make that catch. Lol. At least Dickson gave you a 50/50 shot and teams had to dedicate somebody to covering him if he rolled out.

This guy knows football. If you don't get why Dickson was on the field(despite being a terrible blocker) more than Bajema you don't get football strategy.

 

That I understand. I was more honing in on the point that 5aiah made regarding Bajema being on the team due solely to his blocking prowess in relation specifically to Dickson. If Dickson was a total liability as a blocker, and you already have Pitta on the field to catch passes, wouldn't you put Bajema in to block? I'm just not buying that Dickson is a bad a blocker as he's being made out to be. Great no? Serviceable? Yes, in my opinion. PFF may say otherwise, but I don't like to use PFF to measure an entire season, would rather look game-by-game. There are always outliers and in a 16 game season stats can be dramatically skewed by one or two games.

 

That said, Dickson definitely needs to improve in all facets of his game. This year he will have every opportunity to do so.

 

 

Also in regards to PFF they measure everything by each game and use more accurate stats than the ones the rest of us use. Also I trust their opinion watching actual tape and all 22 much more than the average person(you,no offense) watching broadcast cam. 

[K-Dog]

last night I was going through youtube videos of Leach.  Getting all giddy watching him blow up linebackers and what not.
 
Then I happened across this little gem.
 
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHhFplTse4I[/youtube]


The pride and excitement was unequaled after seeing this one.

Vonta Leach is a beast, no one can argue that.
But there is NONE, NONE like Ray Lewis.

[gabefergy]

last night I was going through youtube videos of Leach.  Getting all giddy watching him blow up linebackers and what not.
 
Then I happened across this little gem.
 
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHhFplTse4I[/youtube]


The pride and excitement was unequaled after seeing this one.

Vonta Leach is a beast, no one can argue that.
But there is NONE, NONE like Ray Lewis.

LOL that is some good stuff!

[beasy2487]

This guy knows football. If you don't get why Dickson was on the field(despite being a terrible blocker) more than Bajema you don't get football strategy.



Also in regards to PFF they measure everything by each game and use more accurate stats than the ones the rest of us use. Also I trust their opinion watching actual tape and all 22 much more than the average person(you,no offense) watching broadcast cam.

That's fair, but being a guy that analyzes quantitative data for a living I've learned that no level of measurement tells the whole story. For example, Joe Flacco. Joe Flacco's career stats are, in many ways, pedestrian. Is he a pedestrian quarterback? No. Why? Because he improved in the playoffs? No. Because right before last year's playoffs a perfect storm of macro factors aligned to put him in the optimal position to succeed. He didn't turn into a new quarterback, the circumstances changed. However, say the front office valued him based on his career stats...he should've been let go, no? No! The front office took into account his stats, the situation, his improvement year over year (however if you were only looking at stats you would say he regressed in some areas) and his trajectory based on intuition. Then decided to offer him the richest contract NFL history to that point.

Yes, PFF is a great company that does thorough analysis. But no, their analysis isn't perfect and I choose to view each piece separately and make my own judgments based on their findings. (As another example, from the PFF analysis in the other thread, Isaac Redman is the second most elusive back in the league behind Spiller but ahead of guys like Sproles and Doug Martin??? C'mon. Maybe according to their metric fundamentals but that's just not true to me.)

[5aiah]

That's fair, but being a guy that analyzes quantitative data for a living I've learned that no level of measurement tells the whole story. For example, Joe Flacco. Joe Flacco's career stats are, in many ways, pedestrian. Is he a pedestrian quarterback? No. Why? Because he improved in the playoffs? No. Because right before last year's playoffs a perfect storm of macro factors aligned to put him in the optimal position to succeed. He didn't turn into a new quarterback, the circumstances changed. However, say the front office valued him based on his career stats...he should've been let go, no? No! The front office took into account his stats, the situation, his improvement year over year (however if you were only looking at stats you would say he regressed in some areas) and his trajectory based on intuition. Then decided to offer him the richest contract NFL history to that point.

Yes, PFF is a great company that does thorough analysis. But no, their analysis isn't perfect and I choose to view each piece separately and make my own judgments based on their findings. (As another example, from the PFF analysis in the other thread, Isaac Redman is the second most elusive back in the league behind Spiller but ahead of guys like Sproles and Doug Martin??? C'mon. Maybe according to their metric fundamentals but that's just not true to me.)

Actually that particular stat doesn't say that Redman is the second most elusive back in the league and it does have a certain flaw. What it says is that when it came down to eluding a defender with a move and making a tackler miss at a certain rate he was second best, so I think you misunderstand that and possibly more of their stats. Also the Elusive stat doesn't count when you can just run past or away from a defender so yes it does have its flaws. Of course you have to view and see for yourself when your a hardcore fan and/or debating but most people don't have all-22 view and without it you can really miss what is going on. Most of the time someone just throws a stat out there without having seen the game at all because they only watch a few games, at least if you know some of these you know more of what actually went on in the game. Also in terms of Flacco your response only serves to back up my point. His regular stats paint him as a pedestrian QB, not the advanced ones, they just paint him as an inconsistent one(which he is so far) with an inconsistent line. This is exactly what i mean by painting a better picture of the game because if more people were using better stats people wouldn't be jumping down Flacco's throat all year. Absolutely you need to watch the game to get a better handle on what is going on but when we see different things we need to have stuff to back our opinions up. Dickson spent a lot of his time blocking instead of catching,but he was still a BAD blocker. Its not just PFF but the majority of people actually watching the film and not just broadcast cam(which isn't that reliable) who can tell how bad he is in that regard. All stats are only good for backing up what you see, or to paint a picture for what you can't see. But why not use good stats?

[beanfigger]

Actually that particular stat doesn't say that Redman is the second most elusive back in the league and it does have a certain flaw. What it says is that when it came down to eluding a defender with a move and making a tackler miss at a certain rate he was second best, so I think you misunderstand that and possibly more of their stats. Also the Elusive stat doesn't count when you can just run past or away from a defender so yes it does have its flaws. Of course you have to view and see for yourself when your a hardcore fan and/or debating but most people don't have all-22 view and without it you can really miss what is going on. Most of the time someone just throws a stat out there without having seen the game at all because they only watch a few games, at least if you know some of these you know more of what actually went on in the game. Also in terms of Flacco your response only serves to back up my point. His regular stats paint him as a pedestrian QB, not the advanced ones, they just paint him as an inconsistent one(which he is so far) with an inconsistent line. This is exactly what i mean by painting a better picture of the game because if more people were using better stats people wouldn't be jumping down Flacco's throat all year. Absolutely you need to watch the game to get a better handle on what is going on but when we see different things we need to have stuff to back our opinions up. Dickson spent a lot of his time blocking instead of catching,but he was still a BAD blocker. Its not just PFF but the majority of people actually watching the film and not just broadcast cam(which isn't that reliable) who can tell how bad he is in that regard. All stats are only good for backing up what you see, or to paint a picture for what you can't see. But why not use good stats?

 

"There are three types of lies:  Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics."  Most opinions can be backed up by statistics if you know which ones to look at and use.  Nobody can give a complete statistical breakdown of anything.  People pick and choose which stats to use to support their own opinions.  You can make any player look great and that same player look terrible by using different statistics.  Any statistic needs to be taken with a grain of salt because they are only telling a small part of the total story.

 

Note:  This is not an original idea of mine.  I am using others' arguments to make my point.  The same thing is done every time people try and persuade others to favor their side of an argument by quoting statistics.  Anyway, I actually like PFF.  It's always interesting, to say the least.  However, no statistics should ever be relied upon as Bible.

[5aiah]

"There are three types of lies:  Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics."  Most opinions can be backed up by statistics if you know which ones to look at and use.  Nobody can give a complete statistical breakdown of anything.  People pick and choose which stats to use to support their own opinions.  You can make any player look great and that same player look terrible by using different statistics.  Any statistic needs to be taken with a grain of salt because they are only telling a small part of the total story.

 

Note:  This is not an original idea of mine.  I am using others' arguments to make my point.  The same thing is done every time people try and persuade others to favor their side of an argument by quoting statistics.  Anyway, I actually like PFF.  It's always interesting, to say the least.  However, no statistics should ever be relied upon as Bible.

Right, we agree there. But you got off point because what we were originally talking about was Dickson's lack of blocking skill and how stats backed that up. Also just as those stats can't be relied upon neither can people who don't know what to look for or don't have the means to do so. Most Ravens fans think Dickson is a avg to good blocker because he was called on to do it more than Pitta. But the truth is he was bad and I think you missed it because of the latter instead of missing what he actually did. I love advanced stats but I also am fortunate to be able to watch all-22 which is how I see most games. I'm not sure whether or not you don't know what a good blocker looks like and can't tell how bad Dickson is, or you just don't have all-22 and are going off of the fact he was the "blocking TE" like a lot of ravens writers and fans. This is why PFF and other sites exist so as to help you see things you otherwise wouldn't. It isn't even about the stats in this instance but an objective opinion from someone who has a good read on what is going on.

[beanfigger]

Right, we agree there. But you got off point because what we were originally talking about was Dickson's lack of blocking skill and how stats backed that up. Also just as those stats can't be relied upon neither can people who don't know what to look for or don't have the means to do so. Most Ravens fans think Dickson is a avg to good blocker because he was called on to do it more than Pitta. But the truth is he was bad and I think you missed it because of the latter instead of missing what he actually did. I love advanced stats but I also am fortunate to be able to watch all-22 which is how I see most games. I'm not sure whether or not you don't know what a good blocker looks like and can't tell how bad Dickson is, or you just don't have all-22 and are going off of the fact he was the "blocking TE" like a lot of ravens writers and fans. This is why PFF and other sites exist so as to help you see things you otherwise wouldn't. It isn't even about the stats in this instance but an objective opinion from someone who has a good read on what is going on.

 

I appreciate you trying to give me an education, but I am just fine when it comes to how I watch and what stats matter.  I never claimed Dickson was a good blocker.  I guess you missed that.  I am not part of that argument.  He will not be a major part of our blocking scheme this year, anyway.

[5aiah]

I appreciate you trying to give me an education, but I am just fine when it comes to how I watch and what stats matter.  I never claimed Dickson was a good blocker.  I guess you missed that.  I am not part of that argument.  He will not be a major part of our blocking scheme this year, anyway.

Well you were saying he was servicable(not bad and Bajema not being needed because Dickson could block), and better than people make him out to be, but Ravens fans(especially on this board)and half the writers(for Baltimore) have overrated his blocking ability when the truth is he is just a bad blocker. He can focus on receiving though this year at least. But my point about advanced stats was only that it can really help when there is a misconception like Dickson being able to block.

[Gordo52]

last night I was going through youtube videos of Leach. Getting all giddy watching him blow up linebackers and what not.

Then I happened across this little gem.


The pride and excitement was unequaled after seeing this one.

Vonta Leach is a beast, no one can argue that.
But there is NONE, NONE like Ray Lewis.

Awesome!! I felt the same way as you haha

[berad]

PFF sits on the high horse, all bow before their 'grading'. I've offered my opinion on them but this isn't the place for it.

 

Glad to have Vonta back and, when I get and free moment, I'll be glad to watch the 2min video of his return and then his presser because I'm a junkie haha

[beasy2487]

Right, we agree there. But you got off point because what we were originally talking about was Dickson's lack of blocking skill and how stats backed that up. Also just as those stats can't be relied upon neither can people who don't know what to look for or don't have the means to do so. Most Ravens fans think Dickson is a avg to good blocker because he was called on to do it more than Pitta. But the truth is he was bad and I think you missed it because of the latter instead of missing what he actually did. I love advanced stats but I also am fortunate to be able to watch all-22 which is how I see most games. I'm not sure whether or not you don't know what a good blocker looks like and can't tell how bad Dickson is, or you just don't have all-22 and are going off of the fact he was the "blocking TE" like a lot of ravens writers and fans. This is why PFF and other sites exist so as to help you see things you otherwise wouldn't. It isn't even about the stats in this instance but an objective opinion from someone who has a good read on what is going on.

 

We have kind of drifted away from my argument as we started to talk the merits of stats. My overall point was that a TE like Bajema would be on the team even if one of our other TEs was an all-world blocker. Bajema's blocking prowess is correlated with the fact that our other two TEs are not great in that area, but his presence on this team is in no way caused by the fact that our other TEs aren't great blockers. We always have a 3rd TE, and usually that guy is a blocker because if he could receive with any kind of consistency he probably wouldn't be a 3rd TE. Or in some instances you might have a journeyman guy that can block in that role like a Davon Drew.

[The Raven]

I appreciate you trying to give me an education, but I am just fine when it comes to how I watch and what stats matter.  I never claimed Dickson was a good blocker.  I guess you missed that.  I am not part of that argument.  He will not be a major part of our blocking scheme this year, anyway.

 

Lol. If he's our starting tight end, he will in fact be a major part of our blocking scheme.

[Tank 92]

last night I was going through youtube videos of Leach.  Getting all giddy watching him blow up linebackers and what not.
 
Then I happened across this little gem.
 
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHhFplTse4I[/youtube]


The pride and excitement was unequaled after seeing this one.

Vonta Leach is a beast, no one can argue that.
But there is NONE, NONE like Ray Lewis.

 

 

Nice play by Ray Ray, made possible by the Tongan Beast!

[5aiah]

Lol. If he's our starting tight end, he will in fact be a major part of our blocking scheme.

Just not sure people get how things work. Lol.

[cobrajet]

Maybe I missed it, but can anyone tell me what we saved or gained by cutting Leach then re-signing him? Thanks.

[The Raven]

Just not sure people get how things work. Lol.

 

Exactly. How would Dickson not be completely essential? If you are a starting tight end, offensive linemen, fullback, or running back, you are a major part of the running game and blocking scheme. Period. Even more so considering  we run the zone stretch pretty often. The zone stretch is heavily dependent on the RT and the TE being able to seal the LE. If they can't seal the end and the TE can't get off the double team to get to the second level, the stretch simply will not work.

 

The reason our off tackle and stretch game is so inconsistent (and sometimes pathetic) is because our TE and RT can't seal the edge. 

[beanfigger]

Lol. If he's our starting tight end, he will in fact be a major part of our blocking scheme.

 

Sorry, I meant pass blocking.  Of course, he will have to step up his blocking for the run game.  I meant he will be as much a part of our blocking scheme as Pitta was last year.

[beanfigger]

Just not sure people get how things work. Lol.

 

I realize you are so much smarter than us other fans, but sometimes people miss type something.

[5aiah]

Exactly. How would Dickson not be completely essential? If you are a starting tight end, offensive linemen, fullback, or running back, you are a major part of the running game and blocking scheme. Period. Even more so considering  we run the zone stretch pretty often. The zone stretch is heavily dependent on the RT and the TE being able to seal the LE. If they can't seal the end and the TE can't get off the double team to get to the second level, the stretch simply will not work.

 

The reason our off tackle and stretch game is so inconsistent (and sometimes pathetic) is because our TE and RT can't seal the edge. 

So true. Thats why we end up having to rely so much on Yanda because the RT and the TEs weren't doing that well out there. I swear if we can get the zone run going this year now that everyone solidified their position we will break off a lot more big runs, especially on early downs,which we struggled with last year. So tired of 1 and 2 yard runs on early downs putting Flacco in a bind.

 

I realize you are so much smarter than us other fans, but sometimes people miss type something.

Nah its not like that bro. I just want to have more convos like the one above and less like the mess you and me got caught up in. I'm an X's and O's type guy.

[5aiah]

Maybe I missed it, but can anyone tell me what we saved or gained by cutting Leach then re-signing him? Thanks.

We saved money. He basically had to take a paycut after finding out no one was going to pay him like the leagues best FB.

[beanfigger]

Exactly. How would Dickson not be completely essential? If you are a starting tight end, offensive linemen, fullback, or running back, you are a major part of the running game and blocking scheme. Period. Even more so considering  we run the zone stretch pretty often. The zone stretch is heavily dependent on the RT and the TE being able to seal the LE. If they can't seal the end and the TE can't get off the double team to get to the second level, the stretch simply will not work.

 

The reason our off tackle and stretch game is so inconsistent (and sometimes pathetic) is because our TE and RT can't seal the edge. 

 

So true. Thats why we end up having to rely so much on Yanda because the RT and the TEs weren't doing that well out there. I swear if we can get the zone run going this year now that everyone solidified their position we will break off a lot more big runs, especially on early downs,which we struggled with last year. So tired of 1 and 2 yard runs on early downs putting Flacco in a bind.

 

This is all coming back around to the original point of this thread.  Vonta Leach coming back is huge for us.