Big Ben vs. Joe Flacco first five years

[SecretAgentMan]

that's true we are even....but we still went one more time lol 

That means we have a better winning% :P

[ravensdan]

Baltimore was robbed numerous times by the refs, revolving around the Steelers which either negated home field advantage, AFC north title or a shot at the SB.

Really? The robbed by the refs card. Come on we are better than that. That's for bungles fans.

[Alexir]

due to multiple requests for this thread I decided to post it

Comp % Yards TD Int Avg Rush TD Starts

Joe Flacco 60.5/ 17,633 /102/ 56 / 7.1/ 7 / 80

Big Ben 62.8/ 15,004 /101/ 69 / 8.0 / 10 / 71

But Ben has more Super Bowls so he must be better, you know because half the boards think winning is a QB stat..

[Tank 92]

no QB with two rings(from starts) has been kept out of the hall of fame

You don't really think Ben is a HOFer, do you? He's a scrapper and a gamer, but he is not a HOF QB.

[The Raven]

A HOFer, in my opinion, is a guy who flat out dominated his era. He is the best among the best. He's top 3-5 at his position. He probably has accolades and a ring or three. Neither Joe nor Ben has flat-out dominated the era. 

[flynismo]

I would take Ben, Eli, joe over Peyton in the playoffs any day. I don't see how Kurt Warner belongs in any hof discussions he had too many horrible years of downright bad play. None of the other qbs mentioned have ever had that. Ben joe and Eli have all had more quality years than Warner already and they are still in their prime years, joe just starting his.

Ben's 2006 season, his third, was atrocious.
59% for 18 TD and 23 INT.
His 2008 season wasnt much better, throwing for 59% again with 17 TD to 15 INT

Eli's first four years combined he threw 77 TD to 65 INT, with a combined 54% completion. That is terrible.
Kurt Warner is twice the QB either of those guys are, and they all had down years...not to mention that Kurt put up some monster seasons back when they were allowed to play defense.

[JoeyFlex5]

I'm not coming at this from a biased stand point at all,but Roethlisberger is no HOFer.The stats just don't support that.He has two rings but he just went along for the ride on that first one.HOFers are supposed to be the best of the best aka the elite during the era that they played.Can you honestly say that he was in the same category with Warner,Rodgers,Manning,Brees and Brady at any time in his career?

yes.. yes i could say he was in the same category. I've said for years, even as a ravens fan, if i couyld have any qb leading my offense in a 2minute drill with the game on the line, im taking a healthy big ben.

the past 2 years ive been feeling a little different about that, joe might be the best 4th quarter qb in the league right now, but big ben in his prime was a freaking magician in the 4th quarter, i was pulling my hair out watching that turd play from 07 up til they lost to the packers in the bowl, he hasnt been the same since

[Tank 92]

At this point in time, neither Ben or Eli are HOF material. Given that Joe is 4 years earlier in his career, I'd have to say that he has the best chance of the three to make the case for being a candidate.

[SecretAgentMan]

At this point in time, neither Ben or Eli are HOF material. Given that Joe is 4 years earlier in his career, I'd have to say that he has the best chance of the three to make the case for being a candidate.

I strongly disagree. Eli is... Ben had a really crappy first SB. He would need to win another

I will say what my pops said.

 

"Given that Flacco has the most playoff wins ever for a QB in his first five seasons, he should have played in two SBs, and he has a SB MVP with the potential to win more, he has already established himself as one of the greatest young QBs ever.  All he does is win, and he shows up for the big show. If Flacco wins another SB, he will get himself a bust in Canton guaranteed. Another after that will make him an all time great.

 

If Flacco wins a fourth, he will go down as one of the 15 best QBs of all time."

[ellicottraven]

Joe Flacco is bigger than 'small' Ben, he is stronger than 'small' Ben, he has a bigger arm than 'small' Ben, he is far more talented than 'small' Ben and overall a far better clutch performer than 'small' Ben! So why are we comparing them?

[The Raven]

Joe Flacco is bigger than 'small' Ben, he is stronger than 'small' Ben, he has a bigger arm than 'small' Ben, he is far more talented than 'small' Ben and overall a far better clutch performer than 'small' Ben! So why are we comparing them?

 

Because just about everything in your post is wrong. They are VERY comparable QBs.

[gabefergy]

A HOFer, in my opinion, is a guy who flat out dominated his era. He is the best among the best. He's top 3-5 at his position. He probably has accolades and a ring or three. Neither Joe nor Ben has flat-out dominated the era.

It depends on how you define dominate. Statistically, no. Neither have dominated like Peyton, Brady, or Brees. In terms of winning and playoff success both Ben and Joe are at or near the top.

[BallHawker]

Not surprising Joe has better stats than Ben. Joe doesn't belong in the top categories until he is consistently great, makes the players around him better, and wins at least 1 MVP.

 

Lifetime QB "rankings" over the past few years (from mid 90s)

 

Hall of Fame

-Brady

-Peyton

-Favre

 

Domination

-Rodgers

-Brees

-Warner

-McNair

 

Winners

-Joe

-Ben

-McNabb

-Eli

 

Regular season stat stars

-Romo

-Rivers

-Ryan

-Palmer

 

QBs should be put into these categories.. Without a strong, strong supporting cast, the "winners" would not have been very successful  and vice versa regarding my "stat stars." However, the dominant and HoF will win despite how good the team is.

[H8R]

Really? The robbed by the refs card. Come on we are better than that. That's for bungles fans.

Phantom holding call on Webbs punt return , phantom holding on Kelley Washington. Phantom touchdown that never broke the plane. It's fact.

[Tank 92]

I strongly disagree. Eli is... Ben had a really crappy first SB. He would need to win another

I will say what my pops said.

 

"Given that Flacco has the most playoff wins ever for a QB in his first five seasons, he should have played in two SBs, and he has a SB MVP with the potential to win more, he has already established himself as one of the greatest young QBs ever.  All he does is win, and he shows up for the big show. If Flacco wins another SB, he will get himself a bust in Canton guaranteed. Another after that will make him an all time great.

 

If Flacco wins a fourth, he will go down as one of the 15 best QBs of all time."

 

 

Well, if all of the Eli(s) in the game got into the HOF it would be awfully crowded.  I think it is much tougher for a QB to be inducted for the reasons that you would think it would be easier.  They are generally considered the leaders of their respective offenses and get a lot of press. That puts a lot of QBs into the mix.  I just don't think Eli has done enough to distinguish himself in that group. 

 

I'm with your Pops on Joe.  He has one heck of a leg at this point and if he continues with his consistent playoff success, he should be a strong candidate.

[PurpleCorsair]

Not surprising Joe has better stats than Ben. Joe doesn't belong in the top categories until he is consistently great, makes the players around him better, and wins at least 1 MVP.

 

Lifetime QB "rankings" over the past few years (from mid 90s)

 

Hall of Fame

-Brady

-Peyton

-Favre

 

Domination

-Rodgers

-Brees

-Warner

-McNair

 

Winners

-Joe

-Ben

-McNabb

-Eli

 

Regular season stat stars

-Romo

-Rivers

-Ryan

-Palmer

 

QBs should be put into these categories.. Without a strong, strong supporting cast, the "winners" would not have been very successful  and vice versa regarding my "stat stars." However, the dominant and HoF will win despite how good the team is.

 

 

Intresting list because at least Warner, and Brees will be going to Canton, and there's little reason to suspect that Rodgers won't if he keeps it up. McNair, sadly, may not make it.

[flynismo]

Not surprising Joe has better stats than Ben. Joe doesn't belong in the top categories until he is consistently great, makes the players around him better, and wins at least 1 MVP.
 
Lifetime QB "rankings" over the past few years (from mid 90s)
 
Hall of Fame
-Brady
-Peyton
-Favre
 
Domination
-Rodgers
-Brees
-Warner
-McNair
 
Winners
-Joe
-Ben
-McNabb
-Eli
 
Regular season stat stars
-Romo
-Rivers
-Ryan
-Palmer
 
QBs should be put into these categories.. Without a strong, strong supporting cast, the "winners" would not have been very successful  and vice versa regarding my "stat stars." However, the dominant and HoF will win despite how good the team is.

Only objection that I have is when you said: However, the dominant and HoF will win despite how good the team is.

Doesn't matter who you are, you need a good supporting cast to win. Imagine Brady without the OL and the two TE he has. Imagine Manning without the OL, Harrison, Wayne and Edge back in his Indy days. What if Brees didn't have possibly the best OL in the game and plays in a system where he has recievers running free all game long?

I'd argue that Flacco has less then any of those guys, and won a SB with it

[SteelersProphet]

I strongly disagree. Eli is... Ben had a really crappy first SB. He would need to win another

I will say what my pops said.

 

"Given that Flacco has the most playoff wins ever for a QB in his first five seasons, he should have played in two SBs, and he has a SB MVP with the potential to win more, he has already established himself as one of the greatest young QBs ever.  All he does is win, and he shows up for the big show. If Flacco wins another SB, he will get himself a bust in Canton guaranteed. Another after that will make him an all time great.

 

If Flacco wins a fourth, he will go down as one of the 15 best QBs of all time."

so according to what you and your pops say if joe gets one more ring he is a lock for the HOF.....but ben with two and a third appearance and a rookie of the year award and with all time steelers passing records......has to do more to be considered.....wow this is the definition of homerism

 

Not surprising Joe has better stats than Ben. Joe doesn't belong in the top categories until he is consistently great, makes the players around him better, and wins at least 1 MVP.

 

Lifetime QB "rankings" over the past few years (from mid 90s)

 

Hall of Fame

-Brady

-Peyton

-Favre

 

Domination

-Rodgers

-Brees

-Warner

-McNair

 

Winners

-Joe

-Ben

-McNabb

-Eli

 

Regular season stat stars

-Romo

-Rivers

-Ryan

-Palmer

 

QBs should be put into these categories.. Without a strong, strong supporting cast, the "winners" would not have been very successful  and vice versa regarding my "stat stars." However, the dominant and HoF will win despite how good the team is.

your list is interesting because all the quarterbacks on your domination list have one superbowl(except mcnair)....but two of your winners have two(I prefer to have a winner on my team then). and do I misunderstand or are you saying that if romo  had a better supporting cast he would win.....his team is stacked and they never win anything

 

Phantom holding call on Webbs punt return , phantom holding on Kelley Washington. Phantom touchdown that never broke the plane. It's fact.

I can give you a list twice as long as that of bad calls that kept the steelers from winning more superbowls........every fan of every team has a list like that

[SecretAgentMan]

so according to what you and your pops say if joe gets one more ring he is a lock for the HOF.....but ben with two and a third appearance and a rookie of the year award and with all time steelers passing records......has to do more to be considered.....wow this is the definition of homerism

Ben's first SB was suspect. Kinda like Dilfer for us. He wasn't great, the team won in spite of him. Willie Parker, Bettis and the D got you that ring. I give him credit vs Zona.
A lot of people ik(I live in Niner territory)agree with me.

[BallHawker]

Let me clarify..

 

The best of the best will make their supporting cast better, and thus win games regardless of talent. To make it into the NFL, athletes need to be at the top of their game in the first place. However, the best QBs will make the OL look stronger, WRs look more open, RBs look dominant, and even defenses look better (by putting up astronomical scores such that the opposing offense would have to be one-dimensional).

 

Rings should not signify the success of the individual, but rather the team. However, it all depends on how big a part the individual plays in that particular team and how much that individual can improve his teammates. There are always exceptions to these guidelines, yet you have to account for the success of not only the individual, but the team and the impact of that individual on the talent of the team, to assess the greatness of the QB.

 

Also, my "HoF" QBs are first-ballot, no question players who have stayed on the top of their game for a decade. The next group are heavy considerations, whereas the "winners" are supported by a strong cast of coaches, front office personell, and the team. True, Romo has had talent; unfortunately for him, his team did not gel while the Cowboys front office was abysmal.

[PurpleCorsair]

 

Also, my "HoF" QBs are first-ballot, no question players who have stayed on the top of their game for a decade. The next group are heavy considerations, whereas the "winners" are supported by a strong cast of coaches, front office personell, and the team. True, Romo has had talent; unfortunately for him, his team did not gel while the Cowboys front office was abysmal.

 

Your classifications imply that Peyton, Brady, and Farve did not have strong coaching and personel and were not "winners." 

 

Brady won his superbowls in far less spectacular fashion than his current play would indicate. He rode on the back of strong defensive play with several big names, and great coaching.  

 

Peyton is simillar in that he may have carried his team to the playoffs, but his team carried him through the playoffs. Who here could forget the 15-6 fieldgoal fest that was the 2006 divisional?

 

Favre also benefited from a front office that went out and signed Reggie White. Also, c'mon man, it's Favre, you know he's going to throw a pick in the least opportune time. He was like Testaverde in that sense.

[SteelersProphet]

Ben's first SB was suspect. Kinda like Dilfer for us. He wasn't great, the team won in spite of him. Willie Parker, Bettis and the D got you that ring. I give him credit vs Zona.
A lot of people ik(I live in Niner territory)agree with me.

this argument that just because he had a bad game he gets no credit for that ring is ridiculous.

without him there is no way and I mean NO WAY we win that superbowl....he got us there with excellent play......the definition of a team is you work together to be the best.......that year everybody contributed....everybody....the ring belongs to the whole team.....before ben how many superbowls did we win(after the 70's)......the answer is 0....we had bettis.....we had a great defense.....and yet....who did we need....a great QB

 

 

Also, my "HoF" QBs are first-ballot, no question players who have stayed on the top of their game for a decade. The next group are heavy considerations, whereas the "winners" are supported by a strong cast of coaches, front office personell, and the team.

so the patriots don't have all those things, the packers don't, the colts don't, sean peyton isn't good,

 

come on......your logic is if they have good pieces around them they cant be good....I guess we should call up the hall of fame and tell them to take down the joe Montana exhibit.....along with countless others 

[BallHawker]

Your classifications imply that Peyton, Brady, and Favre did not have strong coaching and personel and were not "winners." 

 

Brady won his superbowls in far less spectacular fashion than his current play would indicate. He rode on the back of strong defensive play with several big names, and great coaching.  

 

Peyton is simillar in that he may have carried his team to the playoffs, but his team carried him through the playoffs. Who here could forget the 15-6 fieldgoal fest that was the 2006 divisional?

 

Favre also benefited from a front office that went out and signed Reggie White. Also, c'mon man, it's Favre, you know he's going to throw a pick in the least opportune time. He was like Testaverde in that sense.

 

My classifications imply that Peyton, Brady, and Favre dominated the scene, both in the regular season and the post season, for a decade. Great QBs have off days too. If you were to build a franchise from scratch, you would strongly consider picking one of those three as your QB. Simply put, there are a whole bunch of factors that come into play as a rookie QB develops throughout his career. True, we cannot discount their surrounding cast, yet their individual accomplishments and greatness transcended their teams. They were the smartest, most accurate, and durable QBs for a decade. Could it be due to strong coaching and surrounding group? Of course! However, we would never know.. What if the Colts drafted Leaf and he turned out to be a product of the team and coaches? What if Bledsoe was never injured and Brady was traded to a team that didn't have the strong infrastructure? Honestly, who knows?

 

 

so the patriots don't have all those things, the packers don't, the colts don't, sean peyton isn't good,

 

come on......your logic is if they have good pieces around them they cant be good....I guess we should call up the hall of fame and tell them to take down the joe Montana exhibit.....along with countless others 

 

Read above. You have an intriguing point, though. The QB position is much less individualistic than a positional, skill player, that rookie QBs must rely on the entire team with great coaches to grow and become successful. That's why you will see anomalies throughout the NFL with average QBs throwing out top statistics in one or two years of their career. However, what defines the HoF and dominating classifications are the QBs' ability to be consistently throwing for MVP-like numbers, no matter changes in coaching, teammates, and injuries to other elements of the offense.

[ravensfan2430]

I do thank the ravens...I was not a big Maddox fan

 

 

I can say he was on par with warner(even though warner is not of his era)...beat him head to head in the superbowl and has more rings

 

Ben is Better than Manning (if your talking about Eli).......Peyton is one of the greatest of all time so that comparison isn't close

 

Brees I would say is not as good as Ben.....he can have his records, ill take the wins

 

Brady is IMO a lucky QB who got paired with a great coach who made him what he is.......but he is HOF

 

But Ben is top two in Success. only brady and him have three superbowl starts(among active QB's)

IMO, I think he was more lucky to have been paired with the Oline that he has had. Give any QB 7 seconds to throw the ball and they will have a HOF career.

[SteelersProphet]

Read above. You have an intriguing point, though. The QB position is much less individualistic than a positional, skill player, that rookie QBs must rely on the entire team with great coaches to grow and become successful. That's why you will see anomalies throughout the NFL with average QBs throwing out top statistics in one or two years of their career. However, what defines the HoF and dominating classifications are the QBs' ability to be consistently throwing for MVP-like numbers, no matter changes in coaching, teammates, and injuries to other elements of the offense.

 

First of all great numbers are just one part.....the other part is being a unique talent.......or winning consistently over a career

 

ben isn't comparable in numbers to some of these hall of famers, but he has the other two in spades.....when you watch him throw off two different tacklers like they were nothing....or throw a touchdown with three guys grabbing on to him, you say wow ive never seen anyone quite like him.....that's a hall of famer.....especially with the championships

[1/28/01]

NFL stops today and neither Joe or Ben are in the HOF. Sorry.

[H8R]

so according to what you and your pops say if joe gets one more ring he is a lock for the HOF.....but ben with two and a third appearance and a rookie of the year award and with all time steelers passing records......has to do more to be considered.....wow this is the definition of homerism

your list is interesting because all the quarterbacks on your domination list have one superbowl(except mcnair)....but two of your winners have two(I prefer to have a winner on my team then). and do I misunderstand or are you saying that if romo had a better supporting cast he would win.....his team is stacked and they never win anything

I can give you a list twice as long as that of bad calls that kept the steelers from winning more superbowls........every fan of every team has a list like that

My point is in those games not much separated Flacco from Rothlisberger....

[ravensdan]

Ben's 2006 season, his third, was atrocious.
59% for 18 TD and 23 INT.
His 2008 season wasnt much better, throwing for 59% again with 17 TD to 15 INT

Eli's first four years combined he threw 77 TD to 65 INT, with a combined 54% completion. That is terrible.
Kurt Warner is twice the QB either of those guys are, and they all had down years...not to mention that Kurt put up some monster seasons back when they were allowed to play defense.

Warner had 3 great years and then 5 abysmal years. As in couldn't even start! Never threw for more than 11 touch downs. Now that us terrible. Then came back and had three good years again. There is no consistency here whatsoever. Ben, Eli, joe also Brady brees Rodgers all started out slow and built their way up and got better and better they never plummeted completely off the map.

[flynismo]

First of all great numbers are just one part.....the other part is being a unique talent.......or winning consistently over a career
 
ben isn't comparable in numbers to some of these hall of famers, but he has the other two in spades.....when you watch him throw off two different tacklers like they were nothing....or throw a touchdown with three guys grabbing on to him, you say wow ive never seen anyone quite like him.....that's a hall of famer.....especially with the championships

I cant believe that you would have to explain that to a Ravens fan, lol...Flacco and Ben dont get the respect they deserve because they wont win your fantasy football league. Fortunately for Steelers and Ravens fans, our teams do whatever it takes to win, and given the makeup of our teams, we often have to win ugly, but that is what we play for.

Nobody throws better on the run, or avoids pressure more effectively than Roethlisberger. Nobody throws the deep ball better than Flacco, and very very few can throw into windows as tight as Flacco can. They both can make every throw imagineable.

Let Manning and Brees have their fantasy football crowns; we'll settle for the real thing while they are doing that

[ravensdfan]

I cant believe that you would have to explain that to a Ravens fan, lol...Flacco and Ben dont get the respect they deserve because they wont win your fantasy football league. Fortunately for Steelers and Ravens fans, our teams do whatever it takes to win, and given the makeup of our teams, we often have to win ugly, but that is what we play for.

Nobody throws better on the run, or avoids pressure more effectively than Roethlisberger. Nobody throws the deep ball better than Flacco, and very very few can throw into windows as tight as Flacco can. They both can make every throw imagineable.

Let Manning and Brees have their fantasy football crowns; we'll settle for the real thing while they are doing that

 

I agree. In fact, the AFCN as a whole tends to play more of an old style football. It isn't even so much that the Steelers & Ravens can't pass the ball but if a team is giving us the run, we'll take it all day long.

 

As for the argument on who is the better QB in the AFCN right now, I think Flacco gets the edge due to his durability alone. Big Ben just does not exceed Flacco statistically enough to erase the injury factor from the equation.

 

I think this season will erase any doubt. That is my opinion, as Flacco enters his first season without the millstone that is Cam Cameron.

 

@steelersprophet Just a small correction. Ben has only had started all 16 games once in his 9 year career, not twice.