A. Q. Shipley acquired from Colts

[GrimCoconut]

They'll stash Jensen on the PS. Wagner will make the team outright as a 5th round pick. Jensen is learning how to play the interior line positions.

I'm very interested in seeing how we do things. I can see us keeping Jensen on the team. He can play every position on the line except left tackle. That's pretty valuable. You know how we do here. Lol. Ravens love their line versatility.

[Sizzlebshu]

You don't give one guy all the reps.  That's stupid.  We got Shipley for next to nothing.  He has had over 400 snaps of in-game play which is more than enough to get an idea on him.  Geno maybe good in practice but one game isn't enough yet.

 

He needs competition as well and clearly our drafted center wasn't performing up to par in mini-camps.  Why wait till training camp when his value would go up?  Get him early for no more than a 6th.

I didnt say we are going to give him all of the reps. I said that Gino is going to need them all meaning that because right now he is the projected starter, at center ie the leader of the o line, no less. It takes time and reps to develop continuity. 

 

Shipley has 5 total starts. Thats so much better than one game right? Furthermore, 

 

1. The Colts drafted Holmes meaning they have no faith in his abilities. 

2. The Colts may have actively shopped him as some people think (again no faith in his ability) 

3. The Colts may not have been shopping him at all (most plausible to me) and he may have been cut or traded for later for the same price. 

 

Given Dan Koppen, and Andre Gurode are still on the market and all we are looking for his a vet backup, I don't really see this as a move we had to make now. 

[GrimCoconut]

I didnt say we are going to give him all of the reps. I said that Gino is going to need them all meaning that because right now he is the projected starter, at center ie the leader of the o line, no less. It takes time and reps to develop continuity.

Shipley has 5 total starts. Thats so much better than one game right? Furthermore,

1. The Colts drafted Holmes meaning they have no faith in his abilities.
2. The Colts may have actively shopped him (again no faith in his ability)
3. The Colts may not have been shopping him at all (most plausible to me) and he may have been cut or traded for later for the same price.

Given Dan Koppen, and Andre Gurode are still on the market and all we are looking for his a vet backup, I don't really see this as a move we had to make now.

1. Shipley has 5 starts but he's been in the league a much longer time. He's also got familiarity with Castillo. That's why his lack of starting experience isn't such a big deal.
2. The Colts have little chance to trade Satele.

[Sizzlebshu]

1. Shipley has 5 starts but he's been in the league a much longer time. He's also got familiarity with Castillo. That's why his lack of starting experience isn't such a big deal.
2. The Colts have little chance to trade Satele.

1. Tebow has only had 9 real starts but has extended time in the league. Your point? To use a less radical example, Gino has had a year under the Ravens in addition to his one start. You cant knock one and not the other. Starts are really the only thing that matters as it is probably the best method of evaluating just how good a player is. He did fine in his 5 starts, but still the sample size is very small. Castillo experience doesn't mean much to me after watching that Eagles line for the last two years (injuries granted, they did sign backups who were just awful - Bell, Dunlap, Watkins etc....)

 

2. Agreed, but the chance of trading AQ was just as bad given his short arms, originally being a 7th rounder, lack of experience etc.... Im fairly surprised they got a 7th for him. Imo it looked as if he would be cut (if they were actively shopping him) or held on to as interior line depth (if they weren't actively shopping him meaning we could have waited).  

[Yatagarasu]

I think we'll be fine at center.

 

Gradkowski, Shipley, and Jensen are young, but they have Raven mentality and should sharpen each other through competition. 

 

Injuries are part of the game, so it's good to have depth especially ones with starting experiences.

[GrimCoconut]

1. Tebow has only had 9 real starts but has extended time in the league. Your point? To use a less radical example, Gino has had a year under the Ravens in addition to his one start. You cant knock one and not the other. Starts are really the only thing that matters as it is probably the best method of evaluating just how good a player is. He did fine in his 5 starts, but still the sample size is very small. Castillo experience doesn't mean much to me after watching that Eagles line for the last two years (injuries granted, they did sign backups who were just awful - Bell, Dunlap, Watkins etc....)

2. Agreed, but the chance of trading AQ was just as bad given his short arms, originally being a 7th rounder, lack of experience etc.... Im fairly surprised they got a 7th for him. Imo it looked as if he would be cut (if they were actively shopping him) or held on to as interior line depth (if they weren't actively shopping him meaning we could have waited).

Not sure what your argument is anymore. You seem to just dislike the entire notion of the trade. I understand disliking it if we gave more than a 7th or 6th but the trade is hardly poor. Perhaps my interpretation of your meaning is wrong. It just seems you dislike the move and no amount of discussion will change your opinion. I see little reason to continue discussing it with you. You're coming off as really opinionated here.

You say we could have signed Koppen or Gurode. Gurode wasn't that good. He was okay. Maybe we see more potential with Shipley. I certainly trust Ozzie more than you. Just wait and see.

[MTRavensFan]

So basically we used a 7th round pick on a 7th rounder with several years development on the practice squad, a year in the league, and 5 starts? Sounds like a pretty fair deal to me, much better than bringing in an aging, (probably) overpriced veteran. Any vet worth his salt is starting somewhere.

I think it was more Shipley's smarts that impressed the coaches.

 

Gino may only have one start, but he rotated in last year at guard, playing next to, and understudying Birk. He's got familiarity with our guys, our system, and with Joe. You can't discount the importance of that.

[Ravensfan23]

you didnt lol.   I just agreed w/ what u said and just stated my opinion..

Yea I figured that after I replied. It's good Gino isn't handed the job. This trade will either push him up or push him out.

[Alexir]

I woulda have waited, taken my chances that the colts cut him if they really wanted to get rid of him (which is why I think Ozzie went after the deal instead of the colts actively shopping him), and if the Colts sent him elsewhere went after Gurode (who is already familiar with the base playbook and vocab) or Koppen who can pick it up and be a backup.

Given the markets for both, I think they would have taken a very low deal.

Disagree. Apparently AQ was somewhat of a fan favorite and was bout to be in a feature bout underrated super stars.

Ozzie knows exactly what he's doing. Got a steal

[GrimCoconut]

Disagree. Apparently AQ was somewhat of a fan favorite and was bout to be in a feature bout underrated super stars.

Ozzie knows exactly what he's doing. Got a steal

PFF, not that they are the most credible or be-all, end-all sources, had said the same thing about Pernell McPhee. We all know how that turned out for us. He was a secret superstar.

[Ravensfan23]

1. Tebow has only had 9 real starts but has extended time in the league. Your point? To use a less radical example, Gino has had a year under the Ravens in addition to his one start. You cant knock one and not the other. Starts are really the only thing that matters as it is probably the best method of evaluating just how good a player is. He did fine in his 5 starts, but still the sample size is very small. Castillo experience doesn't mean much to me after watching that Eagles line for the last two years (injuries granted, they did sign backups who were just awful - Bell, Dunlap, Watkins etc....)
 
2. Agreed, but the chance of trading AQ was just as bad given his short arms, originally being a 7th rounder, lack of experience etc.... Im fairly surprised they got a 7th for him. Imo it looked as if he would be cut (if they were actively shopping him) or held on to as interior line depth (if they weren't actively shopping him meaning we could have waited).

Castillo wasn't the offensive line coach for the Eagles the last 2 years, he was their DC.

[GrimCoconut]

Castillo wasn't the offensive line coach for the Eagles the last 2 years, he was their DC.

He was the offensive line coach in 2010. That's one of the years when Shipley was there. His first year, actually. It was also Castillo's last year as OL coach.

I'm guessing that's your point since Sizzle said the last two years.

[Ravensfan23]

He was the offensive line coach in 2010. That's one of the years when Shipley was there. His first year, actually. It was also Castillo's last year as OL coach.
I'm guessing that's your point since Sizzle said the last two years.

Yup, that's the point. Castillo had nothing to do with the struggles of the Eagles oline the last 2 years, unless you look at the fact that him not working with those guys had a huge negative impact.

I can't wait to see the impact he and Caldwell have on the oline and ultimately the entire offense.

I know many people don't wanna hear this, but I think the Ravens really think KO can perform well at LT. The shipley deal could be a pickup for 2014 as much as 2013. I could see a scenario where Harbs continues to tinker with the oline despite having the same oline who won the SB. Or at least in the preseason have KO work as the backup LT, Gino at LG and Shipley at Center to see how well they work together.

[GrimCoconut]

Yup, that's the point. Castillo had nothing to do with the struggles of the Eagles oline the last 2 years, unless you look at the fact that him not working with those guys had a huge negative impact.

I can't wait to see the impact he and Caldwell have on the oline and ultimately the entire offense.

I know many people don't wanna hear this, but I think the Ravens really think KO can perform well at LT. The shipley deal could be a pickup for 2014 as much as 2013. I could see a scenario where Harbs continues to tinker with the oline despite having the same oline who won the SB. Or at least in the preseason have KO work as the backup LT, Gino at LG and Shipley at Center to see how well they work together.

I'm sure they do think KO can play it. Now if they get a better left tackle prospect then that guy gets it. They seem to treat offensive line with the idea that the best players play--period. Whatever the best formation is that's who starts.

[dhstandard]

I didnt say we are going to give him all of the reps. I said that Gino is going to need them all meaning that because right now he is the projected starter, at center ie the leader of the o line, no less. It takes time and reps to develop continuity. 

 

Shipley has 5 total starts. Thats so much better than one game right? Furthermore, 

 

1. The Colts drafted Holmes meaning they have no faith in his abilities. 

2. The Colts may have actively shopped him as some people think (again no faith in his ability) 

3. The Colts may not have been shopping him at all (most plausible to me) and he may have been cut or traded for later for the same price. 

 

Given Dan Koppen, and Andre Gurode are still on the market and all we are looking for his a vet backup, I don't really see this as a move we had to make now. 

 

They have 3 centers.  One rookie and two with experience.  5 games is A LOT more than one.  One game doesn't say anything.  Five is a pretty good number to get an understanding of a player's abilities when he is already a few years into his career.

 

Why not make it now?  A 7th round selection?  What if he was traded earlier or more teams wanted him as well?  His asking price might go up.  Better to get a group of guys together now then have 0 going into camp.

 

As it was we had a player who played one game and a rookie.  That's not nearly enough competition.

[Sizzlebshu]

They have 3 centers.  One rookie and two with experience.  5 games is A LOT more than one.  One game doesn't say anything.  Five is a pretty good number to get an understanding of a player's abilities when he is already a few years into his career.

 

Why not make it now?  A 7th round selection?  What if he was traded earlier or more teams wanted him as well?  His asking price might go up.  Better to get a group of guys together now then have 0 going into camp.

 

As it was we had a player who played one game and a rookie.  That's not nearly enough competition.

5 starts isn't a dramatic difference compared to one. Its still too small a sample size.

 

His asking price isn't going to go up. What an absolute joke. The Colts likely shipped out for a 7th because they couldnt get anything better and in all likelihood were going to cut him anyway since they drafted Holmes and cant cut the overpaid vet without cap implications most likely. 

 

As it stands now we have a rookie, player who has played one game, and one who has played 5. Your logic is terrible if you think that is a dramatic improvement in depth. We essentially have 3 rookies. 

 

Koppen and Gurode were on the market still, both who are much more proven and could likely provide better if not just as adequate competition as Shipley at likely minimum cost and cheaper than Shipley who cost us a draft pick. Again not saying the move was bad, but if someone else got Shipley its nowhere near a loss for us given whats available to us. The value aspect of the trade was fine, i'm just saying that I don't see any reason we had to pull the trigger now. 

 

All I am saying is that we easily could have waited and been fine. If the Colts were shopping him and found no suitors, he would have likely been cut. If they were not shopping him, then we could have waited to make the move. 

 

Edit: Best part is we only give up the 7th is Shipley makes the team. Suggests 2 things to me

 

1. Colts were gonna cut him 

 

2. We're not even confident that he is gonna make the team. 

 

Like I said value wise, not a bad trade, but we could have waited. 

[blitzking33]

Well we know he's hungry

 

Ahahahaha wipe it on Larmarr Woodley

[mg90]

Ahahahaha wipe it on Larmarr Woodley

Joe should keep the hand sanitizer on deck this year.

[blitzking33]

Joe should keep the hand sanitizer on deck this year.

Ya.. pour it into his hand warmer

[Ravensfan23]

I'm sure they do think KO can play it. Now if they get a better left tackle prospect then that guy gets it. They seem to treat offensive line with the idea that the best players play--period. Whatever the best formation is that's who starts.

Yea, I actually love that approach of just getting the best players on the field. I really hope they take that approach with the WRs. Who cares about a #1, #2 or slot WR, just use your best of weapons. That seems to also be the approach with the LBs.

[CARavensFan]

I'm sure they do think KO can play it. Now if they get a better left tackle prospect then that guy gets it. They seem to treat offensive line with the idea that the best players play--period. Whatever the best formation is that's who starts.

 

That seems to be the mantra for the entire team, for the O-Line its always get the best 5 guys on the field. That's another reason why they love having the versatility that many of the guys bring to the table.

[GrimCoconut]

Yea, I actually love that approach of just getting the best players on the field. I really hope they take that approach with the WRs. Who cares about a #1, #2 or slot WR, just use your best of weapons. That seems to also be the approach with the LBs.

Yeah. Personally, I'm excited to see the starting position battle for ILB & WR. I'm excited to see the depth position battles for OL, RB, OLB/DE. Those key areas are going to be tight. OLB/DE we have quite a lot of depth. McAdoo, Hamilton are the old guys--especially McAdoo, who has been here some time & looked to be getting a big role until he tore his Achilles. Hamilton is promising due to what he showed, and we know he plays on ST so that's a plus for him. 

 

Then you have a guy like Copeland, who can apparently play OLB/DE but we also experimented with him at MLB in rookie camp, which I find interesting. We signed Meshak Williams as an UDFA, who was impressive last year & has chemistry with Arthur Brown. The third RB job is really up for grabs, though money looks to be on Allen there's nothing certain.

 

And then we have the OL, which is pertaining to this thread, with ridiculous UDFA talent in Devey, DeMilio (not sure what's up with him), Unga, Gaines. I might even be forgetting someone there. We just traded for this guy Shipley. We re-signed Harewood. We've invested draft picks in Reid, Jensen, Wagner. I mean, this area of our team has a lot of talent. Unga I found really impressive. In fact, all those UDFAs I think are impressive. 

 

We have a tough camp battle ahead. 

[GrimCoconut]

That seems to be the mantra for the entire team, for the O-Line its always get the best 5 guys on the field. That's another reason why they love having the versatility that many of the guys bring to the table.

Yeah. We seem to be moving more to a balanced, versatile team where any player can play anywhere. Well, not anywhere, but you get the point, lol. I hope I don't have to see Ngata playing QB anytime soon. 

[Ravensfan23]

5 starts isn't a dramatic difference compared to one. Its still too small a sample size.
 
His asking price isn't going to go up. What an absolute joke. The Colts likely shipped out for a 7th because they couldnt get anything better and in all likelihood were going to cut him anyway since they drafted Holmes and cant cut the overpaid vet without cap implications most likely. 
 
As it stands now we have a rookie, player who has played one game, and one who has played 5. Your logic is terrible if you think that is a dramatic improvement in depth. We essentially have 3 rookies. 
 
Koppen and Gurode were on the market still, both who are much more proven and could likely provide better if not just as adequate competition as Shipley at likely minimum cost and cheaper than Shipley who cost us a draft pick. Again not saying the move was bad, but if someone else got Shipley its nowhere near a loss for us given whats available to us. The value aspect of the trade was fine, i'm just saying that I don't see any reason we had to pull the trigger now. 
 
All I am saying is that we easily could have waited and been fine. If the Colts were shopping him and found no suitors, he would have likely been cut. If they were not shopping him, then we could have waited to make the move. 
 
Edit: Best part is we only give up the 7th is Shipley makes the team. Suggests 2 things to me
 
1. Colts were gonna cut him 
 
2. We're not even confident that he is gonna make the team. 
 
Like I said value wise, not a bad trade, but we could have waited.

If he's basically a rookie, why not get him in as early as possible to build chemistry and start to learn your system? Right now you have voluntary workouts and soon you'll have mini camps. Why wait? If he's really competing to be one of the top 5 olineman you want to give him as much a chance to get familiar as possible. I really don't see the benefits of waiting. Ozzie saw a opportunity to get better and pulled the trigger.

If you wait for him to get cut, he's now a FA and another team could be willing to pay slightly more then the Ravens and Ozzie definitely isn't gonna get into a bidding war or overpay for Shipley. Even if it's a couple hundred thousand. Even if that's not the case, if you wait for the Colts to cut him you don't know when it would happen. You have no way of knowing if their draft picks will pan out or if a injury occurs. Now you have a situation where Shipley becomes more valuable to the Colts and they decide to keep him. What if their is a injury in AZ and Ariens who saw Shipley in both Pit and Indy decides to put in a call for a trade? Say for example both the Ravens and the Cards offered a 7th for Shipley. The Colts may feel that the Cards will have the higher pick and thus decide to take their offer, leaving Ozzie out.

Obviously there is no way of knowing if any of this would have happened.

[Ravensfan23]

Yeah. Personally, I'm excited to see the starting position battle for ILB & WR. I'm excited to see the depth position battles for OL, RB, OLB/DE. Those key areas are going to be tight. OLB/DE we have quite a lot of depth. McAdoo, Hamilton are the old guys--especially McAdoo, who has been here some time & looked to be getting a big role until he tore his Achilles. Hamilton is promising due to what he showed, and we know he plays on ST so that's a plus for him. 
 
Then you have a guy like Copeland, who can apparently play OLB/DE but we also experimented with him at MLB in rookie camp, which I find interesting. We signed Meshak Williams as an UDFA, who was impressive last year & has chemistry with Arthur Brown. The third RB job is really up for grabs, though money looks to be on Allen there's nothing certain.
 
And then we have the OL, which is pertaining to this thread, with ridiculous UDFA talent in Devey, DeMilio (not sure what's up with him), Unga, Gaines. I might even be forgetting someone there. We just traded for this guy Shipley. We re-signed Harewood. We've invested draft picks in Reid, Jensen, Wagner. I mean, this area of our team has a lot of talent. Unga I found really impressive. In fact, all those UDFAs I think are impressive. 
 
We have a tough camp battle ahead.

Don't forget about Jack Cornell who also brings versatility and David Mims who if nothing else is very intriguing with his size.

[GrimCoconut]

Don't forget about Jack Cornell who also brings versatility and David Mims who if nothing else is very intriguing with his size.

Yeah. Lol see? We have so much depth I'm beginning to forget guys.

[dhstandard]

5 starts isn't a dramatic difference compared to one. Its still too small a sample size.

 

His asking price isn't going to go up. What an absolute joke. The Colts likely shipped out for a 7th because they couldnt get anything better and in all likelihood were going to cut him anyway since they drafted Holmes and cant cut the overpaid vet without cap implications most likely. 

 

As it stands now we have a rookie, player who has played one game, and one who has played 5. Your logic is terrible if you think that is a dramatic improvement in depth. We essentially have 3 rookies. 

 

Koppen and Gurode were on the market still, both who are much more proven and could likely provide better if not just as adequate competition as Shipley at likely minimum cost and cheaper than Shipley who cost us a draft pick. Again not saying the move was bad, but if someone else got Shipley its nowhere near a loss for us given whats available to us. The value aspect of the trade was fine, i'm just saying that I don't see any reason we had to pull the trigger now. 

 

All I am saying is that we easily could have waited and been fine. If the Colts were shopping him and found no suitors, he would have likely been cut. If they were not shopping him, then we could have waited to make the move. 

 

Edit: Best part is we only give up the 7th is Shipley makes the team. Suggests 2 things to me

 

1. Colts were gonna cut him 

 

2. We're not even confident that he is gonna make the team. 

 

Like I said value wise, not a bad trade, but we could have waited. 

He's been in the league 4 years.  And 5 games is a major step up.  Matt Flynn played one game.  He must be the next Dan Marino?  Five games against different levels of competition vs one game.  It's a big difference.

 

The Colts weren't going to cut him.  They have 3 guys and could have gone either way.   We have only one guy.  Say they did cut him.  Then do we get in a small bidding war with other teams who need centers?  

[Sizzlebshu]

He's been in the league 4 years.  And 5 games is a major step up.  Matt Flynn played one game.  He must be the next Dan Marino?  Five games against different levels of competition vs one game.  It's a big difference.

 

The Colts weren't going to cut him.  They have 3 guys and could have gone either way.   We have only one guy.  Say they did cut him.  Then do we get in a small bidding war with other teams who need centers?  

Two things

 

1. You cant seriously be trying to say that 5 starts is a decent sample size of anything. 

 

2. They were going to cut him, thats why they accepted a deal where its a conditional 7th meaning that if he doesnt make the roster, they dont get the 7th. He was as good as gone. 

 

Say he did cut. We wouldnt get into a bidding war at all. Ozzie doesnt operate that way. Either he comes at our price or he doesnt. However, if the colts were trying to move him, and they accepted this deal, pretty good guess no one wanted him. Even if someone else for w/e reason picked him up, Gurode and Koppen are on the market still and would come cheap since they have generated no interest at all. 

[dhstandard]

Two things

 

1. You cant seriously be trying to say that 5 starts is a decent sample size of anything. 

 

2. They were going to cut him, thats why they accepted a deal where its a conditional 7th meaning that if he doesnt make the roster, they dont get the 7th. He was as good as gone. 

 

Say he did cut. We wouldnt get into a bidding war at all. Ozzie doesnt operate that way. Either he comes at our price or he doesnt. However, if the colts were trying to move him, and they accepted this deal, pretty good guess no one wanted him. Even if someone else for w/e reason picked him up, Gurode and Koppen are on the market still and would come cheap since they have generated no interest at all. 

You just proved my point.  He wants his price and a 7th was clearly in his range.  5 starts no matter how you spin it, is still considerably better than 1 start.  How many 7th rounders are superstars?  Are we really giving away that much?

 

I think Geno is the guy but we don't have enough to go on yet.  You want us to go into camp with one player in competition for center?  That's stupid.  

[GrimCoconut]

Two things

 

1. You cant seriously be trying to say that 5 starts is a decent sample size of anything. 

 

2. They were going to cut him, thats why they accepted a deal where its a conditional 7th meaning that if he doesnt make the roster, they dont get the 7th. He was as good as gone. 

 

Say he did cut. We wouldnt get into a bidding war at all. Ozzie doesnt operate that way. Either he comes at our price or he doesnt. However, if the colts were trying to move him, and they accepted this deal, pretty good guess no one wanted him. Even if someone else for w/e reason picked him up, Gurode and Koppen are on the market still and would come cheap since they have generated no interest at all. 

It's so hard to say they were going to cut him. I know your point. But it's hard to say the Colts were going to cut Shipley. For all we know, they were debating on which guy to cut and we called. We offered a pick for Shipley, they said "Done deal" and that's the story. 

 

Heck, it might even be one of those deals like Mark Clayton, where we swapped picks (6th & 7th) with them. 

 

In fact, I bet that's what it was--a swapping of picks. There's zero info out there about what the trade was. I wish I knew. I mean, if we gave up something ridiculous like a 5th rounder then I'm on your side--I'm mad. Hell, even a 6th rounder is a bit much unless we swapped for their 7th or something.