2008 Draft Class

[Bltravens]

[quote name='mgridda' timestamp='1366504121' post='1439727']
Absolutely why I don't mind trading up in drafts and getting two great players even if the rest of the draft isn't so hot.
[/quote]
I agree with this sentiment, except its too hard to predict a 1st rounder will be a Pro Bowl player or not.

But I despise trading out of the first unless its the last 4 picks in the 1st and you get a 2nd rounder in the top 4 or 5 picks. The whole "depth" thing in a draft is over rated and useless IMO. Far too often teams draft guys in the mid rounds who aren't even on their roster 3 years later and never contributed much outside of STs, which you can find an UDFA LB who would be more than willing to run full speed on kick coverage for 400 grand a year.

[Tiz]

[quote name='baltravens' timestamp='1366481267' post='1439394']

Yawning? Go to bed grandpa. Pay attention, I was referring to this fella's post dealing with the 2008 draft. ...not 1990 whatever.
[/quote]
So you're saying that you're going to ignore that the 1997 draft was a too draft just to try and make some obsolete point about the 2008 draft

Here's the problem with your logic
You're willing to put the same weight in a 7th rd pick as you would a first round pick regardless of position

[Yatagarasu]

I grade 2008 as one of our best draft.

The best of course is the first one where we got two HoFers.

[arnie_uk]

not sure why your getting negged but that's a perfect summary of what he's doing. Late round picks rarely turn into much so you could really say the only pick we missed on was the third, which is superseded by the fact we've had two of our top 10 and maybe even 5 picks in our history in that draft.

[Tiz]

Probably negged because the guy who was arguing against the 2008 draft has no reply
And is still upset because he thinks I missed his original point instead of drawing a comparison between what he dislikes about the 2008 draft and what happened with the 1996 draft.

Anyways if Nfln considers the 1996 draft one of the greatest ever and we only had 2 guys that really did anything
Why would anyone knock the 2008 draft and suggest that the 3 yrs of service we got out of guys later in the draft wasn't enough

Or maybe cause I missed typed and put 97 lol that's worthy of a neg if I'm hyping that draft

[Yatagarasu]

If we land one franchise player every year. Then in five years, we should have five players to build around.

Now if we draft well like 2008, we should have ten franchise players to build around. We can only give so many contracts, so the drafting well in the draft really helps the team.

[mg90]

any grade for the entire draft under A+ for picking up a super bowl mvp is obsurd. The main objective is to win super bowls and because of that draft, it happened.

[TonyTone1192]

any grade for the entire draft under A+ for picking up a super bowl mvp is obsurd. The main objective is to win super bowls and because of that draft, it happened.

 

B/c of two players we won the superbowl???

[mgridda]

The 2008 draft was great. I looked at it, and there wasn't much room for improvement. In that draft, beyond the first two picks: we took an ILB, a safety, an offensive tackle, a safety, an OT, a wide receiver and a runningback. Aside from drafting carl nicks, there weren't that many better players at those positions.

It's easy to look at the draft and say: well only 2 of those players are still with the team. But, 2008 was NOT a deep draft. What's more damning to me, is when we draft players and better prospects at the same positions are still on the board. That cuts deep into my perception of our scouting department.

For instance, who ranked Mark clayton above Roddy White in 2005? That was a mistake that still haunts us to this day. But that was a scouting department and coaching staff of long ago.

To bring things closer, let's look at 2009. We drafted Michael Oher with clay matthews still on the board. Paul Kruger was our 2nd round pick. So we had Oher rated higher than Matthews. Anyone watching Matthews' style knows he plays like a Raven. I was also very high on Phil Loadholt that year. But he went just 2 picks ahead of our 2nd round pick. Sebastian Vollmer was still on the board though. Imagine if we would have selected Matthews and Vollmer instead of Oher and Kruger. The Lardarius Webb pick was solid. There isn't a better cornerback available when we picked Webb, which means he was the highest on our board: and that was the reality of it too.

It's hard to look at the draft with that big picture mentality of the 2009 draft and Matthews + Vollmer having more value than Oher + Kruger, but it's very valuable.


compare that with 2010. We drafted Sergio Kindle and Terrence cody, as everyone knows. No one could have predicted Kindle would fall down those stairs, same as why I don't really blame the Ravens for drafting Dan cody. Freak accident. Now certainly, there were better value players at different positions on the board when we selected Kindle, or cody (Jimmy Graham, Navorro Bowman, Aaron Hernandez) but can anyone look at that draft and see a better NT or pass rusher still on the board?

Not really. No glaring pass rusher who didn't develop into one, or something. No glaring defensive tackle who has had any better of a career than cody has so far. I think it's important to note that some of the better DTs in the NFL are usually taken on the second day.

Same thing with the 2011 draft. Hard to say anyone is better than Jimmy Smith from the cornerbacks taken after him. However, very easy to say there wasn't a better WR than Torrey Smith left on the board. In fact, Torrey Smith is even rivaling the production of WRs taken in the top 10 (Jones and Green). He was a marvelous selection.

 

[mgridda]

Another thing...2007,

 

What made us draft Yamon Figurs over James Jones? 

 

Yikes.

 

[Yes, I already know the answer: Devin Hester did]

 

The Marshal Yanda pick in that draft was really brilliant. Not another offensive lineman that good for miles. Even the Antwan Barnes and Burgess selections were good. 

 

[PolishRifle]

The Ravens got the best QB and RB out of this draft. Look around the league and how many teams are not set at the QB position. Heck, look at the Ravens prior to 2008 or the Steelers before they got Big Ben.
Unless, your D has one of the all time great seasons, which usually comes and goes after just one season (see for example the 85 Bears), you will need a great QB. Only with a franchise QB do you have a chance at competing consistently for the championship.
We have that now AND got Rice on top of that.
Sry, it's an A+. Getting two franchise players out of one draft IS great.

[PolishRifle]

If NFL teams could redo the 2008 draft. Flacco and Rice would go in the top 5 and Joe would be a candidate for the first overall spot. End of discussion.

[Bltravens]

For instance, who ranked Mark clayton above Roddy White in 2005? That was a mistake that still haunts us to this day. But that was a scouting department and coaching staff of long ago.

(Clayton was chosen because Billick valued his potential versatility as an offensive weapon, I remember that specifically with Clayton. Billick thought he was a natural playmaker he could get the ball to in a variety of methods.)

To bring things closer, let's look at 2009. We drafted Michael Oher with clay matthews still on the board. Paul Kruger was our 2nd round pick. So we had Oher rated higher than Matthews. Anyone watching Matthews' style knows he plays like a Raven. I was also very high on Phil Loadholt that year. But he went just 2 picks ahead of our 2nd round pick. Sebastian Vollmer was still on the board though. Imagine if we would have selected Matthews and Vollmer instead of Oher and Kruger. The Lardarius Webb pick was solid. There isn't a better cornerback available when we picked Webb, which means he was the highest on our board: and that was the reality of it too.

It's hard to look at the draft with that big picture mentality of the 2009 draft and Matthews + Vollmer having more value than Oher + Kruger, but it's very valuable.
 

To be honest I've never been a huge fan of Clay Matthews, he gets taken out on run plays easily when he doesn't have a dominating interior player next to him and he's a straight speed rusher.  Kruger is better with his hands than Matthews is.  Matthews is obviously a better player than Kruger is but I think between the 2 guys we took and the two guys in your hypothetical situation are fairly interchangeable to me.  Vollmer and Oher same thing for me, both are RTs capable of sliding to LT if necessary in a pinch.  Oher is a better run blocker, Vollmer is a better pass protector.  

compare that with 2010. We drafted Sergio Kindle and Terrence cody, as everyone knows. No one could have predicted Kindle would fall down those stairs, same as why I don't really blame the Ravens for drafting Dan cody. Freak accident. Now certainly, there were better value players at different positions on the board when we selected Kindle, or cody (Jimmy Graham, Navorro Bowman, Aaron Hernandez) but can anyone look at that draft and see a better NT or pass rusher still on the board?

Kindle was rated a top 15 pick before stuff about his knee came out about microfracture surgery possibly being needed.  Kindle pre stair fall was a phenomenal pick in the 2nd round.  Kindle was a prototypical 34 OLB. I don't think there was anyone of better value at another position at the top of round 2.  Graham had played football for like 1 year at Miami, Hernandez wouldn't survive as a TE in a system that asks him to block and isn't a spread.  This draft still makes me sad, I thought for sure we got the second coming of Boulware in Kindle.  I'll never get over him falling down the stairs lol.

Not really. No glaring pass rusher who didn't develop into one, or something. No glaring defensive tackle who has had any better of a career than cody has so far. I think it's important to note that some of the better DTs in the NFL are usually taken on the second day.

Same thing with the 2011 draft. Hard to say anyone is better than Jimmy Smith from the cornerbacks taken after him. However, very easy to say there wasn't a better WR than Torrey Smith left on the board. In fact, Torrey Smith is even rivaling the production of WRs taken in the top 10 (Jones and Green). He was a marvelous selection.

[mgridda]

Although I agree with your assessment of Kindle...

 

 

you're way off on Matthews and Kruger. Matthews 

affects games and changes games. The way he has in the last 4 years has been remarkable. He's one of the best outside linebackers in the league. He's a former Defensive Player of the Year. His pass rushing ability is so much more superior than Kruger's...

he's also not a liability in pass coverage. Also, even at this point in Kruger's career he's not nearly as good at run support as clay matthews is. Kruger is a serious liability.

 

[mg90]

B/c of two players we won the superbowl???

Super bowl MVP who carried us through the playoffsl with record setting performances? Hey diddle-diddle ray rice up the middle arguably saving our season? I think they account for a huge part of it.

[Yatagarasu]

True.

 

Flacco and Rice have been our biggest workhorses on offense.

 

They both been durable and have put in a lot of productions.

 

Sure we might have missed the rest of the picks, but our top two picks done so much for the team that I say it is one of Ozzie's best draft.

 

2008 Draft made us the team we are now, which is a Super Bowl winning team.

 

Without Flacco or Rice, I assume our team wouldn't have gone pretty far.

[TonyTone1192]

Super bowl MVP who carried us through the playoffsl with record setting performances? Hey diddle-diddle ray rice up the middle arguably saving our season? I think they account for a huge part of it.

 

They definitely did! And they each are A+ players 

 

But I can't give an entire draft an A+. I like to grade a draft based on depth. I understand that not every pick will work out but we've had deeper drafts (not saying that we've drafted better players than Rice and Flacco) but we've had drafts that brought in players that contributed to a teams success in multiple ways for more than a few seasons. Therefore I cannot give that draft an A+.

 

They each played HUGE roles in our SB run but so did Q, Pitta, our O-line, Pierce and Ray Ray. 

 

In 10 years or so if Flacco and Rice are for sure HOF'ers like Ogden and Lewis then I will bump my grade up to an A++

[Yatagarasu]

We should be happy that 2008 Draft worked out for us. Check out our rival's draft.

 

Steelers 2008 Draft:

 

Rashard Mendenhall - new team

Limas Sweed - bust

Bruce Davis - another team - CFL

Tony Hills - another team

Dennis Dixon - another team

Mike Humpal - bust

Ryan Mundy - another team

 

That's pretty sad that their 2008 class is no more and they got no long-term keepers out of it.

[TonyTone1192]

True.

 

Flacco and Rice have been our biggest workhorses on offense.

 

They both been durable and have put in a lot of productions.

 

Sure we might have missed the rest of the picks, but our top two picks done so much for the team that I say it is one of Ozzie's best draft.

 

2008 Draft made us the team we are now, which is a Super Bowl winning team.

 

Without Flacco or Rice, I assume our team wouldn't have gone pretty far.

 

I think you guys are comparing our '08 draft to each of our other 16 drafts. I'm comparing that draft to every other teams draft since the beginning of the NFL. And if you all give that draft an A+ then you're saying that it's one of the BEST in NFL history. 

 

For the Ravens short 17 year history, yes it was an A+ draft. But overall giving it the highest grade I cannot yet give it that high a praise.

[Yatagarasu]

I think you guys are comparing our '08 draft to each of our other 16 drafts. I'm comparing that draft to every other teams draft since the beginning of the NFL. And if you all give that draft an A+ then you're saying that it's one of the BEST in NFL history. 

 

For the Ravens short 17 year history, yes it was an A+ draft. But overall giving it the highest grade I cannot yet give it that high a praise.

 

I agree.

 

The 1996 Draft made the 2000 Super Bowl Team since they got a franchise LT to protect the offense and a franchise MLB to run one of the best defenses in NFL history.

[TonyTone1192]

I agree.

 

The 1996 Draft made the 2000 Super Bowl Team since they got a franchise LT to protect the offense and a franchise MLB to run one of the best defenses in NFL history.

 

Agreed!

 

I'm not taking anything away from Joe and Ray... they each were very vital in our super bowl run and hopefully they will be just as important in future superbowl runs!!!  :D

[GrimCoconut]

I think you guys are comparing our '08 draft to each of our other 16 drafts. I'm comparing that draft to every other teams draft since the beginning of the NFL. And if you all give that draft an A+ then you're saying that it's one of the BEST in NFL history. 
 
For the Ravens short 17 year history, yes it was an A+ draft. But overall giving it the highest grade I cannot yet give it that high a praise.

I am comparing the 2008 draft to the 2008 draft. You can't compare drafts.

Here's my question: how could the draft have been any better? Don't give me "We should have hit on more picks". I want you to tell me how it could have been better. What moves could we have made to improve our draft?

The 2008 was a very poor draft in terms of depth. How many of those players are still on NFL teams? Out of the top-55 picks (where we got Flacco & Rice) there's nobody I would have taken over those two. You also seem fine with them. So, let's look at the other picks.

Tavares Gooden & Tom Zbikowski, 3rd round picks: Jermichael Finley, Philip Wheeler, Cliff Avril, Mario Manningham all were late 3rd round picks. We missed some picks there. That's a real shame.

Oniel Cousins, 3rd round comp & Marcus Smith, 4th round pick: let's see who came after them. Williams Hayes, Red Bryant.

David Hale, 4th round comp: Carl Nicks, Ahtyba Rubin, Pierre Garcon, Josh Morgan & Josh Sitton are about it.

Haruki Nakamura 6th round comp & Justin Harper 7th round picks: Demetrius Bell, Peyton Hillis, King Dunlap & Cary Williams.

Allen Patrick, 7th round comp: Geoff Schwartz

That's it. There were a lot of good UDFAs, though.

The point I am making is that class was really spotty. It just wasn't very good. I didn't do the math, but there were probably two rounds full of talent and nothing really after that.

[Bltravens]

Although I agree with your assessment of Kindle...

 

 

you're way off on Matthews and Kruger. Matthews 

affects games and changes games. The way he has in the last 4 years has been remarkable. He's one of the best outside linebackers in the league. He's a former Defensive Player of the Year. His pass rushing ability is so much more superior than Kruger's...

he's also not a liability in pass coverage. Also, even at this point in Kruger's career he's not nearly as good at run support as clay matthews is. Kruger is a serious liability.

Well to be fair I did say Matthews was obviously the better player lol.  I've just never been sold on Matthews as a complete OLB, only once has he broken 50 combined tackles in a single season I think and its not as though teams shy away from running the ball to his side.  Matthews without a doubt changes games in the pass rush, but he 100% relies on his exceptional burst off the snap to get to the QB.  If we're comparing pass rushing by hand use I think Kruger is more developed in that regard.

Again, Matthews is obviously the better player than Kruger, but I think he's more one dimensional than people want to admit.  Putting things in perspective, Suggs has only twice in 10 year career not reached 59 tackles.  Rookie year and last year, two years where he played limited snaps.  And both are considered elite OLBs, both are former 1st round picks.

[TonyTone1192]

I am comparing the 2008 draft to the 2008 draft. You can't compare drafts.

Here's my question: how could the draft have been any better? Don't give me "We should have hit on more picks". I want you to tell me how it could have been better. What moves could we have made to improve our draft?

The 2008 was a very poor draft in terms of depth. How many of those players are still on NFL teams? Out of the top-55 picks (where we got Flacco & Rice) there's nobody I would have taken over those two. You also seem fine with them. So, let's look at the other picks.

Tavares Gooden & Tom Zbikowski, 3rd round picks: Jermichael Finley, Philip Wheeler, Cliff Avril, Mario Manningham all were late 3rd round picks. We missed some picks there. That's a real shame.

Oniel Cousins, 3rd round comp & Marcus Smith, 4th round pick: let's see who came after them. Williams Hayes, Red Bryant.

David Hale, 4th round comp: Carl Nicks, Ahtyba Rubin, Pierre Garcon, Josh Morgan & Josh Sitton are about it.

Haruki Nakamura 6th round comp & Justin Harper 7th round picks: Demetrius Bell, Peyton Hillis, King Dunlap & Cary Williams.

Allen Patrick, 7th round comp: Geoff Schwartz

That's it. There were a lot of good UDFAs, though.

The point I am making is that class was really spotty. It just wasn't very good. I didn't do the math, but there were probably two rounds full of talent and nothing really after that.

 

If that's how you decide to grade that draft then, hey, you say toe-may-toe and I say toe-mah-toe

[GrimCoconut]

If that's how you decide to grade that draft then, hey, you say toe-may-toe and I say toe-mah-toe

Haha, fair enough. I'm just saying how can you compare this draft to 2009? I mean, they're completely different players, you dig?

I think for what we got, and for what was available, we didn't do all that bad. Yeah, we missed on some REALLY good players in the later rounds. I can't say we couldn't have done better. We absolutely could have done better. I bet you Eric DeCosta wouldn't give the draft an A, even though he would like to do so. Those guys expect perfection & want to nail every pick. Every team does. It's just not easy. You never know who pans out & who is good or not. Some guys are system guys, too. They work as a component. Other guys can put the team on their back. That's why some guys do well when they leave & still produce, and other guys don't do that well.

2008 just wasn't a great class. If you look back, you'll see there was a clear lack of talent. Not many Pro Bowl players. That's not the only way to judge a draft, but you get the idea.

[mgridda]

I give it an A in the sense of grades at a university. 

 

Imagine if a professor graded based on everything that has ever been turned in. 

[mgridda]

Also, regarding Sebastian Vollmer:

 

The second round of 2009 produced a number of quality linemen, including William Beatty, Max Unger, Phil Loadholt and Andy Levitre. The one that ends up making this list is Vollmer, who has proven himself due to his versatility. Although most of his time has been spent at right tackle, he has proven himself at left tackle. In his first five starts in the league, he played left tackle and allowed eight overall pressures and no sacks. In fact he has been so versatile that in all four years in the league, Vollmer has had positive ratings in pass blocking, screen blocking, run blocking and penalties. Pass blocking is the biggest factor for an offensive tackle, and Vollmer had a pass blocking rating below -0.3 only twice in 2013 — mostly thanks to Cameron Wake and Von Miller. After signing a four-year deal this offseason, Vollmer should continue helping the Patriots’ line be one of the best in the league.

 

Yes, I'm saying the 2009 draft where we got Oher and Kruger wasn't as good as the 2010 Kindle & 

Cody draft. Not as good as the 2011 Jimmy/Torrey Smith draft and not as good as the Upshaw & Osmele draft.

 

With Matthews and Vollmer we'd probably have 3 Superbowls by now.

 

[TonyTone1192]

Haha, fair enough. I'm just saying how can you compare this draft to 2009? I mean, they're completely different players, you dig?

I think for what we got, and for what was available, we didn't do all that bad. Yeah, we missed on some REALLY good players in the later rounds. I can't say we couldn't have done better. We absolutely could have done better. I bet you Eric DeCosta wouldn't give the draft an A, even though he would like to do so. Those guys expect perfection & want to nail every pick. Every team does. It's just not easy. You never know who pans out & who is good or not. Some guys are system guys, too. They work as a component. Other guys can put the team on their back. That's why some guys do well when they leave & still produce, and other guys don't do that well.

2008 just wasn't a great class. If you look back, you'll see there was a clear lack of talent. Not many Pro Bowl players. That's not the only way to judge a draft, but you get the idea.

 

Lol I agree.. you've shown me aspects of the draft(s) that I over looked like talent within the draft. 

 

In Oz we trust!

[Yatagarasu]

2009 Draft wasn't bad since we got serviceable starters in Webb and Oher. It's a shame that Kruger developed so late, but that was that.

 

2010 doesn't look so good with Kindle already a bust and Cody looking like one too.

[Yatagarasu]

I hope our FO becomes aggressive and trade up for two strong prospects who can be starters for a long time.

 

I don't care what position they play as long as they produce.

 

All-Pro are good too.