Amplus' Top Ten - Series 2 - The Department of Defense

[stm85]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365916402' post='1433269']
I know you guys all think the 49ers are overrated, but the stats don't lie about them being one of the top secondaries. Also, they're still probably better than the Chiefs.

Houston dropped out of the top ten because stats support they were lit up. Chad Henne lit them up of course.
[/quote]

How are they better? The Chiefs have better players at literally every position. They have decent enough safeties but both Whitner and Goldson are much better against the run than the pass and the aging Rodgers is really their only top CB. Brown is alright but Culliver is terrible. Again, the Chiefs are better at every single spot.

[Yatagarasu]

Brown is considered the #13 CB according to ProFootballFocus.

Maybe the 49ers' stats were overinflated since they played inept offenses to boost their stats like Cardinals and Rams.

I should do an inflation-adjustment.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365916465' post='1433271']
You can say they suck against the run, but the team sure didn't pass against them very often.

In the playoffs, the 49ers beat them with the run, not with the pass.
[/quote]
If a team is bad against the run, you typically exploit that because then you run out the clock. Do you know football?

[stm85]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365916676' post='1433274']
Brown is considered #13 CB according to ProFootballFocus.
[/quote]

He certainly isn't a bad player but he needs to do it for longer than one year before I consider him a top player. He played with a tremendous supporting cast as well. Gamble was the #1 CB on a team completely devoid of talent on defense and has played great for years. I'd take him over Brown any day.

[Yatagarasu]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1365916696' post='1433275']
If a team is bad against the run, you typically exploit that because then you run out the clock. Do you know football?
[/quote]

Of course, but why would they want to run the ball, when the Falcons are a top ten offense and most of the teams are playing catch-up.

Running only works when you have the lead, not behind.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365916836' post='1433279']
Of course, but why would they want to run the ball, when the Falcons are a top ten offense and most of the teams are playing catch-up.

Running only works when you have the lead, not behind.
[/quote]
How do you explain the 335 yards Brees put up? Everyone has a bad game. They also played in Atlanta.

[url="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/boxscore?gid=20121111018"]http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/boxscore?gid=20121111018[/url]

How about this game? Are you just going to ignore that?

[Yatagarasu]

Ok readjusted the rankings.

[color=#ff0000][b]1. Seattle Seahawks:[/b][/color]
[color=#ff0000][b]2. Buffalo Bills[/b][b]:[/b][/color]
[color=#ff0000][b]3. Tennessee Titans[/b][b]:[/b][/color]
[color=#ff0000][b]4. Atlanta Falcons[/b][b]:[/b][/color]
[color=#ff0000][b]5. Denver Broncos[/b][b]:[/b][/color]
[color=#ff0000][b]6. Chicago Bears[/b][b]:[/b][/color]
[color=#ff0000][b]7. New Orleans Saints[/b][b]:[/b][/color]
[color=#ff0000][b]8. St. Louis Rams:[/b][/color]
[color=#ff0000][b]9. Miami Dolphins[/b][b]:[/b][/color]
[color=#ff0000][b]10. Kansas City Chiefs:[/b][/color]

[Yatagarasu]

This secondary ranking thing is not easy.

KC allowed 29 TDs!

[stm85]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365917731' post='1433284']
This secondary ranking thing is not easy.

KC allowed 29 TDs!
[/quote]

That's why it's hard to go off of last year's rankings with all of the players moving teams. Berry was recovering from ACL surgery and the Chiefs were forced to play him and Arenas out of position. They also didn't have Elam or Gamble. The only thing that's the same is Flowers.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='stm85' timestamp='1365916778' post='1433277']
He certainly isn't a bad player but he needs to do it for longer than one year before I consider him a top player. He played with a tremendous supporting cast as well. Gamble was the #1 CB on a team completely devoid of talent on defense and has played great for years. I'd take him over Brown any day.
[/quote]

Gamble's been one of my favorite CBs since as long as I can remember. But even I would admit to the fact that he's struggled in two of out of the last three seasons. He was outstanding in 2011, and I was personally hoping that it was a beacon of hope for the underrated ex-Panther. But he's missed 18 games since 2009, and hasn't been able to stay on the field. When he has, he's looked less like himself more often than not. Given that his injuries are reportedly behind his decision to hang up his cleats, it's hard to argue the, "when healthy," point considering that he's a 30 year old DB who'd be going into his 10th season.

[Yatagarasu]

Next series, I might have to resort to tier ranking, since it's more easier.

And it's the most important series of all anyways.

Who cares about having the best secondary, when defense is an all level effort.

[The Oakland Cathedral]

[quote name='stm85' timestamp='1365915565' post='1433261']


Barron will be a very good player but I feel like Bailey is getting by on name recognition at this point. He is still solid, but he isn't a guy who can singlehandedly make a CB corps great anymore. Moore has some potential but he isn't anything special right now and neither is the rest of the CB group.
[/quote]This is just wrong. Bailey still graded out as a top 10 CB this year IIRC. He may have lost a step but he is still a dominant number 1. How long he can continue is another story. If you are talking about Rahim Moore the FS then you are wrong again. He also graded out as one of the top FS's in football although he is probably best remembered for his playoff blunder. He looks to have an incredibly bright future. Again if you are referring to the Bronco's other CB's being nothing special you are severely overlooking Chris Harris. Him and Bailey formed the best CB tandem in the NFL. Harris is an stud and is still improving.

[stm85]

[quote name='Miami Hurricane' timestamp='1365919368' post='1433292']
This is just wrong. Bailey still graded out as a top 10 CB this year IIRC. He may have lost a step but he is still a dominant number 1. How long he can continue is another story. If you are talking about Rahim Moore the FS then you are wrong again. He also graded out as one of the top FS's in football although he is probably best remembered for his playoff blunder. He looks to have an incredibly bright future. Again if you are referring to the Bronco's other CB's being nothing special you are severely overlooking Chris Harris. Him and Bailey formed the best CB tandem in the NFL. Harris is an stud and is still improving.
[/quote]

Young players can look great with dominant pass rushers like the Broncos had. Not that they don't have very bright futures, but I need to see more. I personally rank proven talent higher than guys who just did it last year. I still have them as a top 5 group, but I wouldn't put them above Seattle, Buffalo, Tennessee, or Kansas City.

[Yatagarasu]

[quote name='stm85' timestamp='1365919707' post='1433293']
Young players can look great with dominant pass rushers like the Broncos had. Not that they don't have very bright futures, but I need to see more. I personally rank proven talent higher than guys who just did it last year. I still have them as a top 5 group, but I wouldn't put them above Seattle, Buffalo, Tennessee, or Kansas City.
[/quote]

I think Denver has the edge over KC since Mark Barron is suppose to be a very good safety. However, anything on paper doesn't always mean it's better because they have to perform.

[color=#ff0000][b]Champ Bailey[/b][/color] vs Brandon Flower

Champ Bailey because he might be old, but can still play at a high level. After he got burned by Torrey Smith, the Broncos adjusted by putting safety help on Torrey's side, and Torrey was quiet after that. Flower is a solid cornerback, but don't really have the pedigree as Bailey. You can play the age card, but I think Bailey can switch to safety like Ronde Barber.

Matt Elam vs [color=#ff0000][b]Mark Barron[/b][/color]

Barron was the top safety in the draft last year due to his instinct and size. He didn't live up to his 1st round status last year, but Elam hasn't either. Barron and Elam could be toss-up, but Barron gets the edge due to his size and accomplishment in college.

[color=#ff0000][b]Eric Berry[/b] [/color]vs Rahim Moore

Berry gets the win here since he's a Pro-Bowler and Moore has been solid, but still has some lapse.

[color=#ff0000][b]Chris Harris[/b][/color] vs Javier Arenas

Harris according to ProFootballFocus is a rated very high compared to Arenas. Both guys can do slot duty well.

[b]Depth:[/b]
[color=#ff0000][b]Denver[/b][/color] vs, KC

Denver gets the edge because they have serviceable players like Fletcher and Carter, You can try to play the pass rush card, but both teams had good pass rushing duos. You can say Chris Gamble all you want, but how can you use a player that doesn't want to play anymore, Until he is officially unretired, my ranking for the Chiefs seems fair.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365921022' post='1433295']
[color=#FF0000][b]Champ Bailey[/b][/color] vs Brandon Flower

Champ Bailey because he might be old, but can still play at a high level. After he got burned by Torrey Smith, the Broncos adjusted by putting safety help on Torrey's side, and Torrey was quiet after that. Flower is a solid cornerback, but don't really have the pedigree as Bailey. You can play the age card, but I think Bailey can switch to safety like Ronde Barber.
[/quote]

To his defense, Flowers has been far better than just solid. In my opinion, he's quietly been one of the best CBs in football over the past few years. I've watched him like a hawk since he was drafted out of Virginia Tech. The production he had last season of allowing 40 receptions on 80 targets with a QB rating of 65.6 were relatively unsurprising, as his career burn percentage and allowed QB rating are just a smidge higher than those numbers. It's no surprise that he's graded out as a Top 7 CB in each of his past four seasons. I'd take him over Bailey at this point, but that's just me.

[stm85]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365921022' post='1433295']
I think Denver has the edge over KC since Mark Barron is suppose to be a very good safety. However, anything on paper doesn't always mean it's better because they have to perform.

[color=#ff0000][b]Champ Bailey[/b][/color] vs Brandon Flower

Champ Bailey because he might be old, but can still play at a high level. After he got burned by Torrey Smith, the Broncos adjusted by putting safety help on Torrey's side, and Torrey was quiet after that. Flower is a solid cornerback, but don't really have the pedigree as Bailey. You can play the age card, but I think Bailey can switch to safety like Ronde Barber.

Matt Elam vs [color=#ff0000][b]Mark Barron[/b][/color]

Barron was the top safety in the draft last year due to his instinct and size. He didn't live up to his 1st round status last year, but Elam hasn't either. Barron and Elam could be toss-up, but Barron gets the edge due to his size and accomplishment in college.

[color=#ff0000][b]Eric Berry[/b] [/color]vs Rahim Moore

Berry gets the win here since he's a Pro-Bowler and Moore has been solid, but still has some lapse.

[color=#ff0000][b]Chris Harris[/b][/color] vs Javier Arenas

Harris according to ProFootballFocus is a rated very high compared to Arenas. Both guys can do slot duty well.

[b]Depth:[/b]
[color=#ff0000][b]Denver[/b][/color] vs, KC

Denver gets the edge because they have serviceable players like Fletcher and Carter, You can try to play the pass rush card, but both teams had good pass rushing duos. You can say Chris Gamble all you want, but how can you use a player that doesn't want to play anymore, Until he is officially unretired, my ranking for the Chiefs seems fair.
[/quote]

I think Gamble should be included since the rules state that players who had yet to retire before the mock started are still active in our mock. It's your rankings and you can do whatever you want, but to me it seems fair to use the rules we all agreed to. It throws my team rankings off because Arenas is not an outside CB like you have him listed at, as he would be torched there, but rather a slot CB. Besides, you traded Gamble to me and I recall giving up quite a bit to get him after a bit of negotiation so you obviously think pretty highly of him.

[Mt. Crushmore]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365921022' post='1433295']


I think Denver has the edge over KC since Mark Barron is suppose to be a very good safety. However, anything on paper doesn't always mean it's better because they have to perform.

[color=#ff0000][b]Champ Bailey[/b][/color] vs Brandon Flower

Champ Bailey because he might be old, but can still play at a high level. After he got burned by Torrey Smith, the Broncos adjusted by putting safety help on Torrey's side, and Torrey was quiet after that. Flower is a solid cornerback, but don't really have the pedigree as Bailey. You can play the age card, but I think Bailey can switch to safety like Ronde Barber.

Matt Elam vs [color=#ff0000][b]Mark Barron[/b][/color]

Barron was the top safety in the draft last year due to his instinct and size. He didn't live up to his 1st round status last year, but Elam hasn't either. Barron and Elam could be toss-up, but Barron gets the edge due to his size and accomplishment in college.

[color=#ff0000][b]Eric Berry[/b] [/color]vs Rahim Moore

Berry gets the win here since he's a Pro-Bowler and Moore has been solid, but still has some lapse.

[color=#ff0000][b]Chris Harris[/b][/color] vs Javier Arenas

Harris according to ProFootballFocus is a rated very high compared to Arenas. Both guys can do slot duty well.

[b]Depth:[/b]
[color=#ff0000][b]Denver[/b][/color] vs, KC

Denver gets the edge because they have serviceable players like Fletcher and Carter, You can try to play the pass rush card, but both teams had good pass rushing duos. You can say Chris Gamble all you want, but how can you use a player that doesn't want to play anymore, Until he is officially unretired, my ranking for the Chiefs seems fair.
[/quote]

Will there be a special teams one? Just wondering.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1365915331' post='1433257']

Ahh, I see. To be fair, I actually agree. I wonder how long old man Bailey can continue to do what he does. Torrey Smith took him to school and it was elementary and he couldn't keep up. Maybe even Kindergarten or Pre-K. I don't think he's a true #1 CB anymore. Barron, I feel, will be a good player. I think the safety tandem he has is actually really good. I think they can feed off of each other very well. I just don't like his cornerbacks as much.
[/quote]the same champ bailey that allowe 1 TD last year and an opposing QB ratin of 63? That champ bailey? Putting him in a one on one situation with a burner like smith was suicide, but there isn't many people in the league with the pace of smith that actually a good receiver. Bailey will shut down teams 14 games a year and may struggle in a couple at most. The ravens in the playoffs being one

[arnie_uk]

My two starting corner backs combine for 2 tds allowed, 68 QB rating, 56 percent completion percentage, 929 yards, and 50 stops in the run game to boot. The best partnership in the league last year by PFF grades if you use them no. 5 and 10 respectively, compared to settles no.1 and 22. Tony carter also played extremely well as my nickel.

Rahim moore was one the best safeties last year and is extremely young and now has a legit player beside him with that pass rush to boot helping everyone out I don't know how they can't be considered top 3

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1365957454' post='1433434']
the same champ bailey that allowe 1 TD last year and an opposing QB ratin of 63? That champ bailey? Putting him in a one on one situation with a burner like smith was suicide, but there isn't many people in the league with the pace of smith that actually a good receiver. Bailey will shut down teams 14 games a year and may struggle in a couple at most. The ravens in the playoffs being one
[/quote]
Fair argument. I can't deny how good he is. I just wonder if he is still the same player. Your comments & argument is more than fair for him, however. He did play against the Falcons, right? How did they do against him? I am not being sarcastic, either. I do wonder how they performed with Bailey on Jones or White.

Truth? Get me some PFF stats! Haha.

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1365957988' post='1433445']
My two starting corner backs combine for 2 tds allowed, 68 QB rating, 56 percent completion percentage, 929 yards, and 50 stops in the run game to boot. The best partnership in the league last year by PFF grades if you use them no. 5 and 10 respectively, compared to settles no.1 and 22. Tony carter also played extremely well as my nickel.

Rahim moore was one the best safeties last year and is extremely young and now has a legit player beside him with that pass rush to boot helping everyone out I don't know how they can't be considered top 3
[/quote]
I agree regarding Moore, Carter & Harris 100%. I think you probably have the best safety tandem in our mock.

My question about Bailey comes more from wondering if this is the year. He has been a Ray Lewis type of player at CB, though, so I can see him somehow keep it going.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1365958879' post='1433450']

Fair argument. I can't deny how good he is. I just wonder if he is still the same player. Your comments & argument is more than fair for him, however. He did play against the Falcons, right? How did they do against him? I am not being sarcastic, either. I do wonder how they performed with Bailey on Jones or White.

Truth? Get me some PFF stats! Haha.


I agree regarding Moore, Carter & Harris 100%. I think you probably have the best safety tandem in our mock.

My question about Bailey comes more from wondering if this is the year. He has been a Ray Lewis type of player at CB, though, so I can see him somehow keep it going.
[/quote] 1 completion 16 yards, 34 yards against NE, 12 against Houston. His oNLY TD was against cinci. Chris Harris only had two games giving up 50 yards and let in two touchdowns all year.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1365958879' post='1433450']
Fair argument. I can't deny how good he is. I just wonder if he is still the same player. Your comments & argument is more than fair for him, however. He did play against the Falcons, right? How did they do against him? I am not being sarcastic, either. I do wonder how they performed with Bailey on Jones or White.

Truth? Get me some PFF stats! Haha.


I agree regarding Moore, Carter & Harris 100%. I think you probably have the best safety tandem in our mock.

My question about Bailey comes more from wondering if this is the year. He has been a Ray Lewis type of player at CB, though, so I can see him somehow keep it going.
[/quote]

lol I'm afraid that he's beaten me to it. Looking at his numbers, Bailey was definitely a standout this season outside of his horrid performance against Baltimore. But I'd strongly disagree about his Safety tandem being the best. The best Safety group arguably belongs to Miami with Eric Weddle and Reshad Jones. And at #2, Earl Thomas and Kam Chancellor may deserve the nod.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1365978922' post='1433662']
lol I'm afraid that he's beaten me to it. Looking at his numbers, Bailey was definitely a standout this season outside of his horrid performance against Baltimore. But I'd strongly disagree about his Safety tandem being the best. The best Safety group arguably belongs to Miami with Eric Weddle and Reshad Jones. And at #2, Earl Thomas and Kam Chancellor may deserve the nod.
[/quote]
Ahh, yes. That's true. I keep forgetting Miami has Weddle & Jones.

Earl Thomas is an absolute beast. I still wish we got him that draft. I remember wanting to trade up for him.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1365979124' post='1433668']
Ahh, yes. That's true. I keep forgetting Miami has Weddle & Jones.

Earl Thomas is an absolute beast. I still wish we got him that draft. I remember wanting to trade up for him.
[/quote]

I almost did too. That's a frightening duo.

No question about it. I wish that we did. I was hoping at the time that we'd select McCourty instead of trading back.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1365979557' post='1433681']
I almost did too. That's a frightening duo.

No question about it. I wish that we did. I was hoping at the time that we'd select McCourty instead of trading back.
[/quote]
Yes. Speaking of McCourty, I want to reunite the brothers. Check your PMs. Make it happen!

[gabefergy]

This was a fun read, just thought I would make a slight objection pertaining to the Dolphins

[u][u][b]Category:[/b][/u][/u]
Dline

[u][u][b]Player Color Label Change:[/b][/u][/u]

[font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]Cameron Wake should be a [/color][/font][color=#ff0000]RED[/color] player in my humble opinion. He has been an absolute terror off the edge and is a top 3 Edge Rusher in the NFL.

[b][u]Underrated:[/u][/b]

With this is in mind, I believe the Dolphins D line in general should be higher rated. It has several very productive interior pass-rushers like Dockett and Babineaux to go along with one of the best Run Stuffers in the league, Justin Bannan. While this group is older there is quality depth here and young players such as Jordan Hill and Kheeston Randall provide a youthful flavor. I dont see any other Dline in the league with this much depth at each postition with a potential breakout candidate Oliver Vernon playing behind the very productive Isreal Idonije. The addition of Michael Buchanan also adds youth and verstatility.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1366005206' post='1433908']
[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]Cameron Wake should be a [/color][/font][color=#ff0000]RED[/color] player in my humble opinion. He has been an absolute terror off the edge and is a top 3 Edge Rusher in the NFL.
[/quote]

I think you may have made a minor mistake with the colors, as the red only applies to the units themselves. Wake's been given the title of a Franchise Defender, the highest individual honor available in his assessment. Just clearing it up.

[gabefergy]

[u][u][b]Category:[/b][/u][/u]

Miami Dolphins Secondary

[u][u][b]Player Color Label Change:[/b][/u][/u]

[font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]I appreciate acknowledging the talented safeties in the Dolphins secondary, but like Cam Wake, I think Reshad Jones is deserving to bumped up a tier into the [/color][/font][color=#0000cd]BLUE[/color] range. Jones is arguably the best young safety in the league. A true playmaker against the run and in the passing game, Jones is a highlight reel player.

For your viewing pleasure

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZwwrz0c6Vg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZwwrz0c6Vg[/url]

[gabefergy]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1366005627' post='1433910']
I think you may have made a minor mistake with the colors, as the red only applies to the units themselves. Wake's been given the title of a Franchise Defender, the highest individual honor available in his assessment. Just clearing it up.
[/quote]

Wake is a top 5 defensive player in the league, so maybe that means top 10 overall? I guess not.

[gabefergy]

[b][u]Category:[/u][/b]

Miami Dolphins Linebackers:

[b][u]Underrated:[/u][/b]

Dannell Ellerbe had a real breakout year, and once he was put on the field consistently proved to be an elite blitzer and run-stopper. His addition to an already stout LB corps with Koa Misi and Kevin Burnett makes it hard for me to find a weakness in this group. Sean Porter is another versatile player who is a great blitzer and will form a nasty nickel package with Burnett/Ellerbe.