Amplus' Top Ten - Series 2 - The Department of Defense

[Yatagarasu]

Ok, the more I look at it, I felt that Rams' LB Corps was misranked because their WLB is still a question since Rivers is actually a bust. Also, I like their two rookies to try and fill that spot, but Moore is more of a OLB/DE and Mauti is rehabbing from another torn acl. Their other two positions ae strong, but the weakness of WLB dropped them out of the top ten.

[Yatagarasu]

[quote name='ravensdan' timestamp='1365738208' post='1431403']
No improvement for steelers line backers? Are you only considering Woolley as a de?
[/quote]

Ok I moved them up one spot because you do have the other three spots filled up and will find a depth player for Sean Spence.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365742242' post='1431452']


Ok I moved them up one spot because you do have the other three spots filled up and will find a depth player for Sean Spence.
[/quote]
Doesn't Sean Spence have some crazy injury? I don't know if he can be counted on for any future contributions. I remember wanting to trade for him & reading that report and completely changing my mind.

[Yatagarasu]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1365743011' post='1431459']
Doesn't Sean Spence have some crazy injury? I don't know if he can be counted on for any future contributions. I remember wanting to trade for him & reading that report and completely changing my mind.
[/quote]

Yeah, maybe I should drop him back to the 11th spot. I see the Steelers in the 10th/11th spot with or without Spence because they have the talent on the other three positions to mask that LB spot. If they land Rolando McClain, then it might be a different story.

[-Truth-]

Thank you for the continuous updates. Might I make a case for pulling the Chiefs over the Packers? Perry had a sub-par performance before going down with injury. Okafor definitely has upside, and Montgomery could be a solid LOLB if he puts in the effort. But in the best possible scenario, the starter out of the trio would only equal Justin Houston, who was quietly one of the best 3-4 OLBs in football last season. I've been a fan of Bishop since '10, as he's been rock solid as a starter. But Derrick Johnson's arguably been a Top 5 ILB over the last few seasons, and should deserve the nod in that match up. I'd personally take Matthews over Hali, although both outstanding players, so it's not by the widest of margins. In my mind, it comes down to Lofton vs Minter, and while Minter has the potential to become a more than capable LB, Lofton's proven his place at this plateau over the years. Just my two cents.

[Yatagarasu]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1365747372' post='1431498']
Thank you for the continuous updates. Might I make a case for pulling the Chiefs over the Packers? Perry had a sub-par performance before going down with injury. Okafor definitely has upside, and Montgomery could be a solid LOLB if he puts in the effort. But in the best possible scenario, the starter out of the trio would only equal Justin Houston, who was quietly one of the best 3-4 OLBs in football last season. I've been a fan of Bishop since '10, as he's been rock solid as a starter. But Derrick Johnson's arguably been a Top 5 ILB over the last few seasons, and should deserve the nod in that match up. I'd personally take Matthews over Hali, although both outstanding players, so it's not by the widest of margins. In my mind, it comes down to Lofton vs Minter, and while Minter has the potential to become a more than capable LB, Lofton's proven his place at this plateau over the years. Just my two cents.
[/quote]

Makes sense since the the Chiefs have three top players playing in their LB Corps, while the Packers only have two proven, a rookie, and a rotation.

[ravensdan]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1365743011' post='1431459']

Doesn't Sean Spence have some crazy injury? I don't know if he can be counted on for any future contributions. I remember wanting to trade for him & reading that report and completely changing my mind.
[/quote]

Spence has some nerve damage from when he blew out his knee. It is really unfortunate. Still with Timmons grading positively in every line backing category and the outside rushing of Woolley and Moore as well as carter and rush specialist Washington, this unit should be top 3 at least. Sylvester and shaw may not be game changers but they should be able to hold their own with everyone around them.

[Yatagarasu]

[quote name='ravensdan' timestamp='1365762649' post='1431528']
Spence has some nerve damage from when he blew out his knee. It is really unfortunate. Still with Timmons grading positively in every line backing category and the outside rushing of Woolley and Moore as well as carter and rush specialist Washington, this unit should be top 3 at least. Sylvester and shaw may not be game changers but they should be able to hold their own with everyone around them.
[/quote]

[b]1. San Francisco 49ers:[/b]
LB Corps:
Sam: [b]Ahmad Brooks [/b]Mike: [color=#ff0000][b]Patrick Willis[/b][/color] Will: [color=#ff0000][b]Navorro Bowman [/b][/color]Jack:[b] Aldon Smith[/b]
(Notable Depth: Alec Ogletree, Parys Haralson)

[b]2. Denver Broncos:[/b]
LB Corps:
Sam: [b]Philip Wheeler [/b]Mike: [b]Brad Jones[/b] Will: [b]Wesley Woodyard[/b] Jack: [color=#ff0000][b]Von Miller[/b][/color]
(Notable Depth: Larry Grant, Nate Irving)

[b]3. Kansas City Chiefs:[/b]
LB Corps:
Sam: [b]Justin Houston[/b] Mike: [b]Curtis Lofton[/b] Will: [b]Derrick Johnson[/b] Jack: [color=#ff0000][b]Tamba Hali[/b][/color]
(Notable Depth: Trevardo Williams, Chris Gocong, Thaddeus Gibson)

The Top Three are very established and talented.

I would like to put the Steelers higher and I even got some criticism for placing them in the top ten, but the injury of Sean Spence really puts everything down. His knee injury could've been career ending. I like Moore, Carter, and Washington, but they're not as established as Houston or Brooks yet. Also, Woodley is productive, but hasn't turned in a full 16 games for two years and that is also a question mark too. Denver runs a 4-3, but they have so much talent in their LB that they should run a unique 3-4 defense to put as much talent out on the field as possible.

[The Oakland Cathedral]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365736638' post='1431372']


I like Talib, but the down production of Griffin and Wilson is a concern. Also, the depth is filled with young guys that needs to develop and I would recommend from using Kyle "Burn me all day" Arrington too much.
[/quote]I understand but Wilson wouldn't be the starter. Also Arrington is fine in a 3 or 4 roll I definitely wouldn't make him a 1 or 2.

[Yatagarasu]

[quote name='Miami Hurricane' timestamp='1365773876' post='1431573']
I understand but Wilson wouldn't be the starter. Also Arrington is fine in a 3 or 4 roll I definitely wouldn't make him a 1 or 2.
[/quote]

You be the judge.

Compared to the teams above, where do you think your team will rank and give a good explanation.

Truth uses his ProFootballFocus subscription to convince me in increasing his teams ranks on all categories.

[Guest nflfan123]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365733986' post='1431333']
Whoever takes the Raiders next year is going to be rich.

Estimated $69M cap space.

There's a lot of 1 year CBs coming back on the market.
[/quote]
you know that has to be me

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='nflfan123' timestamp='1365779359' post='1431653']

you know that has to be me
[/quote]
I personally believe members who live in certain areas should be given right-of-first-refusal in our future mocks. It just makes sense to me as that would mean that GM would know their team much better. I think it would seriously reduce the risk of bad GM moves. That's just one man's opinion, though.

[Clutch Ravens]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365734215' post='1431340']
Revised Ranks are up.

Give inputs.

IF you still think your team ranking is questionable, then state reason why it's better than the teams above.
[/quote]

I'd argue that the Cardinals linebackers should be top 16.

Daryl Washington is easily a top 5 ILB and is worlds better than a number of guys you have highlighted as Alpha Males. Next to him, Brandon Siler is a serviceable 2-down run stuffer that won't be playing all 3 downs. Martez Wilson developed in to an efficient pass rusher last season and plays across from a guy that seems to be getting downplayed far too often. Dion Jordan is pretty much a top 5 lock. His size and athleticism are near unprecedented, while his movement in space is, quite frankly, incredible. He played through all of last season with a torn labrum so was effectively playing with one arm. I would say he has Aldon Smith like potential as a pass rusher, but Smith looked lost without Justin Smith in front of him.

I also have pretty capable depth both inside and out with Urlacher, Andre Carter, Jake Bequette and Corey Lemonier.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1365780426' post='1431674']


I'd argue that the Cardinals linebackers should be top 16.

Daryl Washington is easily a top 5 ILB and is worlds better than a number of guys you have highlighted as Alpha Males. Next to him, Brandon Siler is a serviceable 2-down run stuffer that won't be playing all 3 downs. Martez Wilson developed in to an efficient pass rusher last season and plays across from a guy that seems to be getting downplayed far too often. Dion Jordan is pretty much a top 5 lock. His size and athleticism are near unprecedented, while his movement in space is, quite frankly, incredible. He played through all of last season with a torn labrum so was effectively playing with one arm. I would say he has Aldon Smith like potential as a pass rusher, but Smith looked lost without Justin Smith in front of him.

I also have pretty capable depth both inside and out with Urlacher, Andre Carter, Jake Bequette and Corey Lemonier.
[/quote]
I agree with you to an extent. Your DTs are pretty damn good. That will help your LBs make plays & should keep them clean. My issue is that Jordan is unproven, as much as I like his potential and may or may not benefit from the talent around him. When it comes to certain positions, I worry about labeling any player a safe pick. Urlacher is also well past his prime. I like Beguette but what has he done so far? I really don't know. That's a genuine question. Lemonier is a good depth player and may be a solid contributor but I am not certain he is a starter. I'm sure that's not the case for you, but still.

I do agree that Washington is in the top-5 LBs in terms of the entire NFL. The problem there is his suspension for 4 (?) games due to substance abuse. I assume we take that into consideration.

Anyway, on potential alone & production I believe you should be in the top-15. You aren't?

[Yatagarasu]

I thought about the Cardinals LB Corps.

Washington is an All-Pro LB and a Urlacher was a former All-Pro. Urlacher isn't the same anymore, but there's a lot of uncertainity. If he can play somewhat serviceable, then the group should do fine. As for the OLBs positions, the players have to develop. They aren't proven enough to be in the top ten. You can talk about the Steelers, their GM is biased, but at least they got two proven and established players in Timmons and Woodley.

[The Oakland Cathedral]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365778502' post='1431639']


You be the judge.

Compared to the teams above, where do you think your team will rank and give a good explanation.

Truth uses his ProFootballFocus subscription to convince me in increasing his teams ranks on all categories.
[/quote]I don't think they should be any higher really, just saying that they have the potential to be very good in the future. I am just happy they are ranked top 20.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365782268' post='1431709']
I thought about the Cardinals LB Corps.

Washington is an All-Pro LB and a Urlacher was a former All-Pro. Urlacher isn't the same anymore, but there's a lot of uncertainity. If he can play somewhat serviceable, then the group should do fine. As for the OLBs positions, the players have to develop. They aren't proven enough to be in the top ten. You can talk about the Steelers, their GM is biased, but at least they got two proven and established players in Timmons and Woodley.
[/quote]
You may have said this, but are you doing ST unit, best defensive unit (working together and all), etc? I'm very curious to see how you rank me in those areas.

[Clutch Ravens]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365782268' post='1431709']
I thought about the Cardinals LB Corps.

Washington is an All-Pro LB and a Urlacher was a former All-Pro. Urlacher isn't the same anymore, but there's a lot of uncertainity. If he can play somewhat serviceable, then the group should do fine. [b]As for the OLBs positions, the players have to develop. They aren't proven enough to be in the top ten[/b]. You can talk about the Steelers, their GM is biased, but at least they got two proven and established players in Timmons and Woodley.
[/quote]

See, I'd agree if you didn't have teams featuring guys like Kawann Short and Arthur Brown so high in their respective rankings. All rookies are equally unproven at this point. I'd also say that the vast majority of draftniks/scouts/everyone would have Jordan in their top 10, considerably ahead of guys like Brown and Short. I don't like picking on these guys repeatedly, but they're a couple of the most obvious examples.

I don't mean to labour the point, but I just don't see how you can say, in my opinion, a superior prospect is unproven while you already have a guy like Arthur Brown ranking amongst the All Pro/Pro Bowlers at his position. That just doesn't make any logical sense to me.

While I know it's all conjecture and opinion, my linebackers definitely aren't in the bottom third of the NFL. They wouldn't have even been in the bottom third last year when they had two of the most useless, inept OLBs in Acho & Schofield starting last year.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365778502' post='1431639']
You be the judge.

Compared to the teams above, where do you think your team will rank and give a good explanation.

Truth uses his ProFootballFocus subscription to convince me in increasing his teams ranks on all categories.
[/quote]

Most of that information is available without a subscription, and I had to use other sources to find the breakdown on Williams. I made solid points about the Chiefs without looking at any numbers, as I could have for my own units. It just always helps to back your findings.

[ravensdan]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365763375' post='1431530']


[b]1. San Francisco 49ers:[/b]
LB Corps:
Sam: [b]Ahmad Brooks [/b]Mike: [color=#ff0000][b]Patrick Willis[/b][/color] Will: [color=#ff0000][b]Navorro Bowman [/b][/color]Jack:[b] Aldon Smith[/b]
(Notable Depth: Alec Ogletree, Parys Haralson)

[b]2. Denver Broncos:[/b]
LB Corps:
Sam: [b]Philip Wheeler [/b]Mike: [b]Brad Jones[/b] Will: [b]Wesley Woodyard[/b] Jack: [color=#ff0000][b]Von Miller[/b][/color]
(Notable Depth: Larry Grant, Nate Irving)

[b]3. Kansas City Chiefs:[/b]
LB Corps:
Sam: [b]Justin Houston[/b] Mike: [b]Curtis Lofton[/b] Will: [b]Derrick Johnson[/b] Jack: [color=#ff0000][b]Tamba Hali[/b][/color]
(Notable Depth: Trevardo Williams, Chris Gocong, Thaddeus Gibson)

The Top Three are very established and talented.

I would like to put the Steelers higher and I even got some criticism for placing them in the top ten, but the injury of Sean Spence really puts everything down. His knee injury could've been career ending. I like Moore, Carter, and Washington, but they're not as established as Houston or Brooks yet. Also, Woodley is productive, but hasn't turned in a full 16 games for two years and that is also a question mark too. Denver runs a 4-3, but they have so much talent in their LB that they should run a unique 3-4 defense to put as much talent out on the field as possible.
[/quote]

Yes woodley was slowed by injuries last year but having Washington rotate in he will be able to stay healthy and fresh and return to all pro form. If we are talking injuries then justin smith had just as many and is much older than woodley. As for Ahmad brooks he has no all pro potential. He was cut from the bengals who found him on the scrap heap. He is more on par to somewhat better than Sylvester/shaw. Willis and Timmons are comparable. Timmons is actually better in coverage and pass rush. Moore is a rookie but
Has proven his pass rush abilities against the heavy hitters of the sec, so while his is certainly behind aldon smith I would say that puts the steelers at number 2 with future improvements behind spence. This front 7 can march up with the saints better than the marquee cb teams that have been brought up.

[Yatagarasu]

[quote name='ravensdan' timestamp='1365801062' post='1431976']
Yes woodley was slowed by injuries last year but having Washington rotate in he will be able to stay healthy and fresh and return to all pro form. If we are talking injuries then justin smith had just as many and is much older than woodley. As for Ahmad brooks he has no all pro potential. He was cut from the bengals who found him on the scrap heap. He is more on par to somewhat better than Sylvester/shaw. Willis and Timmons are comparable. Timmons is actually better in coverage and pass rush. Moore is a rookie but
Has proven his pass rush abilities against the heavy hitters of the sec, so while his is certainly behind aldon smith I would say that puts the steelers at number 2 with future improvements behind spence. This front 7 can march up with the saints better than the marquee cb teams that have been brought up.
[/quote]

You can try throw mud at the 49ers, but you can't deny the three All-Pro players.

I think the Steelers are placed fairly at the bottom of the top ten until further notice. If you can find a viable replacement for Sean Spence, then your ranking will definitely will go up.

[ravensdan]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365811669' post='1432131']


You can try throw mud at the 49ers, but you can't deny the three All-Pro players.

I think the Steelers are placed fairly at the bottom of the top ten until further notice. If you can find a viable replacement for Sean Spence, then your ranking will definitely will go up.
[/quote]

As far as the 9ers we will see who's linebackers have more all pro caliber players at the end of the yr. I have a further plan behind spence...however he has not been ruled out either. I would still put this incomplete unit against any other unit listed as it stands today. Besides the 9ers which unit has a 5 yr vet all pro on one side, another proven inside backer with positive ranks in all major lb categories and should have been all pro last yr. plus 2 pass rushing monsters who have been battling in the sec trenches.?

[-Truth-]

Just my personal opinion, but I believe that the Hunter and Wing Leader titles should be more exclusive. It's just a little strange to see a player like Nick Perry grouped in the same category as Aldon Smith, Justin Houston and Carlos Dunlap. Plus with Donald Butler commonly seen as a defensive centerpiece in San Diego, I'd argue that he's definitely above being just serviceable.

[Yatagarasu]

If you guys have any comments, criticisms, or anything on the assessments of the rankings, please post in this type of format, so I can track and collect information quickly.

[u][b]Ranking Opinion Format[/b][/u]

[u][u][b]Category:[/b][/u][/u]

[u][u][b]Overrated:[/b][/u][/u] (include reasons brief or long please)

[u][u][b]Underrated:[/b][/u] [/u](include reasons brief or long please)

[u][u][b]Player Color Label Change:[/b][/u] [/u](include reasons brief or long please)

[u][u][b]Any Updates:[/b][/u][/u]

[stm85]

You completely forgot to add Chris Gamble to the Chiefs. He is my #2 CB. Arenas is a great slot CB as well. Not having the Chiefs in the top 5 secondaries, let alone top 10, is absurd.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='stm85' timestamp='1365866970' post='1432706']
You completely forgot to add Chris Gamble to the Chiefs. He is my #2 CB. Arenas is a great slot CB as well. Not having the Chiefs in the top 5 secondaries, let alone top 10, is absurd.
[/quote]
I guess he did that because Gamble retired. That's my only guess as your secondary is really good. I would probably put you at #7 at the very least without Gamble.

[stm85]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1365867262' post='1432709']
I guess he did that because Gamble retired. That's my only guess as your secondary is really good. I would probably put you at #7 at the very least without Gamble.
[/quote]

Retired players still count though, that's the rule. Gamble would be a top 15 CB in the NFL and a great #2. His exclusion makes my group look much worse than it is because Arenas is too small and not good enough to be a #2 CB, whereas he is an excellent option as a #3 guy in the slot. Menzie/Sweeting are inexperienced but I could do worse at the dime spot too. I also plan on addressing S depth with my last FA stars.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='stm85' timestamp='1365867475' post='1432713']


Retired players still count though, that's the rule. Gamble would be a top 15 CB in the NFL and a great #2. His exclusion makes my group look much worse than it is because Arenas is too small and not good enough to be a #2 CB, whereas he is an excellent option as a #3 guy in the slot. Menzie/Sweeting are inexperienced but I could do worse at the dime spot too. I also plan on addressing S depth with my last FA stars.
[/quote]
I agree. You know I do, lol. See Matt Birk. I'm just saying why I think he didn't mention him. He may not be counting them, as a similar situation occurred with the Cowboys & Birk.

[Guest nflfan123]

Exactly Birk and Gamble would both be good players still.

[Yatagarasu]

They retired.

That's like saying hey look I got Brett Favre or Kurt Warner on my team.