Amplus' Top Ten - Series 2 - The Department of Defense

[-Truth-]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1365704111' post='1430909']
youd be lost with PFF Lol
[/quote]

I didn't have it during the first Mock. There are other sources and articles available, ones I made full use of when I didn't have my subscription.

[Clutch Ravens]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1365704380' post='1430913']
I didn't have it during the first Mock.
[/quote]

Was that the one in which you had...Arizona?

I remember having Denver.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1365704574' post='1430915']
Was that the one in which you had...Arizona?

I remember having Denver.
[/quote]

Yes, sir. And San Diego. By the way, between between Calais Campbell, Brodrick Bunkley, Jurrell Casey and Dion Jordan, your DL ranking should be much, much higher.

[Clutch Ravens]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1365704794' post='1430918']
Yes, sir. And San Diego. By the way, between between Calais Campbell, Brodrick Bunkley, Jurrell Casey and Dion Jordan, your DL ranking should be much, much higher.
[/quote]

I agree, I mean I see his point about unproven rookies, but he contradicts himself by saying a guy like Jordan is potential, while Arthur Brown is already an "Alpha Male".

I remember trading with you to get Daryl Washington that year. He is one of "My Guys".

Come to think of it, I left that draft having traded a 3rd for Washington and still picking up: Jurrell Casey (swapped with Hunter), Corey Liuget, Patrick Peterson, Bruce Carter and Rahim Moore.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1365705035' post='1430924']
I agree, I mean I see his point about unproven rookies, but he contradicts himself by saying a guy like Jordan is potential, while Arthur Brown is already an "Alpha Male".

I remember trading with you to get Daryl Washington that year. He is one of "My Guys".

Come to think of it, I left that draft having traded a 3rd for Washington and still picking up: Jurrell Casey (swapped with Hunter), Corey Liuget, Patrick Peterson, Bruce Carter and Rahim Moore.
[/quote]

He also has Denver at #1 with Kawann Short as the starting DT. It's not at all a slight towards Denver, but rather adds to your point in that a Rookie starter shouldn't hold back your ratings.

A horrific gaff on my part. I had little idea of who he was, and didn't even bother reading up on him.

That's a damn fine Draft, aside from Moore.

[Mt. Crushmore]

[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1365705035' post='1430924']
Rahim Moore.
[/quote]

Some nice coverage on this play.

[img]http://www.denverbroncos.com/assets/images/imported/DEN/photos/article-images/2013/01-January/130112_moore_inside.jpg[/img]

[Clutch Ravens]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1365705280' post='1430926']
He also has Denver at #1 with Kawann Short as the starting DT. It's not at all a slight towards Denver, but rather adds to your point in that a Rookie starter shouldn't hold back your ratings.

A horrific gaff on my part. I had little idea of who he was, and didn't even bother reading up on him.

That's a damn fine Draft, aside from Moore.
[/quote]

I feel I have to defend Moore, so from what I've heard he was actually having quite a nice season without his blown coverage on Jacoby.

I totally missed Short being part of the #1 D-line. Arthur Brown is also highlighted as the leader of the #5 ranked linebackers. As far as I'm concerned Jordan is better than both.

[Mt. Crushmore]

[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1365706266' post='1430944']
I feel I have to defend Moore, so from what I've heard he was actually having quite a nice season without his [b]blown coverage on Jacoby.[/b]
[/quote]

That is all anyone is going to remember though.

[-Truth-]

With regard to the LB corps, Donald Butler has been one of the better young ILBs in football, and Erin Henderson has been a top tier run defender at his position over the last two seasons, with 78 stops and 8 missed tackles in that span with an average of just 645 snaps. David Hawthorne had a very poor season while playing just 325 snaps in his struggles with injuries, especially by his standards. But at 27, with the performances he had from 2009 to 2011, he should be a bounce back candidate considering that he was among the better LBs in the NFL when healthy during the 3 seasons prior. I've already mentioned the performances of Carlos Dunlap, Brandon Graham, Junior Galette, who not only rushed the passer at an elite level last season, but were also stout against the run. Graham had 28 stops to 3 missed tackles, Dunlap had 31 to 5, and Galette had 13 to 0. Add in Jarvis Jones, who's been arguably the most decorated defender in the NCAA over the last 2 years, and I'd definitely argue that this unit is far better than 20th or worse.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1365706266' post='1430944']
I feel I have to defend Moore, so from what I've heard he was actually having quite a nice season without his blown coverage on Jacoby.

I totally missed Short being part of the #1 D-line. Arthur Brown is also highlighted as the leader of the #5 ranked linebackers. As far as I'm concerned Jordan is better than both.
[/quote]

He was, actually. It's unfortunate for him that it will only be remember for that play.

We'll obviously have to wait until they see the field to prove who's superior to who, but at this point, the latter is hard to argue.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Mt. Crushmore' timestamp='1365706314' post='1430945']


That is all anyone is going to remember though.
[/quote]one play doesn't make a players career, I've had probably double digit trade talks about him and turned them all down, he was really good last year minus than one play

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1365706266' post='1430944']


I feel I have to defend Moore, so from what I've heard he was actually having quite a nice season without his blown coverage on Jacoby.

I totally missed Short being part of the #1 D-line. Arthur Brown is also highlighted as the leader of the #5 ranked linebackers. As far as I'm concerned Jordan is better than both.
[/quote]jordan is better than short

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1365706601' post='1430949']
one play doesn't make a players career, I've had probably double digit trade talks about him and turned them all down, he was really good last year minus than one play
[/quote]
I was one of them. I personally think highly of Moore. I hoped to steal him from you, lol.

[Mt. Crushmore]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1365706601' post='1430949']
one play doesn't make a players career, I've had probably double digit trade talks about him and turned them all down, he was really good last year minus than one play
[/quote]

Yeah I know, which is why that play surprised me even more as Jacoby beat him.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Mt. Crushmore' timestamp='1365706852' post='1430956']


Yeah I know, which is why that play surprised me even more as Jacoby beat him.
[/quote]i just don't think he thought joe could throw it that far and took a shallower angle expecting a int, then it starting sailing so he had to back pedal and scramble

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1365706654' post='1430952']

I was one of them. I personally think highly of Moore. I hoped to steal him from you, lol.
[/quote]i really wanted him in the draft when he was coming out, didnt think reed would last as Long as he did

[The Oakland Cathedral]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365694228' post='1430831']
The question for every team is that can they consider going head to head with the best offenses in the game.


LB Corps:
Can we stop the run, follow TEs, and follow some pass rush against the New England Patriots? If Yes, then top ten worthly.
Dansby and Harris are both very good ILB's even though Harris is coming off a bad year. They are solid at stopping the run and provide some pass rush. Mingo, Acho, Pough, and Worilds are all very young but should be able to provide a solid pass rush, especially with Atkins, Barnes, and Seymour occupying O-lines. Pough and Klein look to be some of the best coverage LB'ers in the draft so they should be able to handle most pass coverage assignments. So despite the youth they should at least be a top 20 LB unit.

CB Wings:
Can we match up with the WRs of New Orleans? If Yes, then top ten worthly
So no one?
[/quote]

[ravensdan]

First off i am in agreement of your assessment of the Steelers D-Line, they should wind up higher than top 10, but I am rellying on some young guys to step up in Hood, McClendon and heyward. The rotation is much better than the Steelers had last year with veterans kiesel and Sopoaga, also TaAmu could be a rotational player as well (also incomplete)

In the secondary i would actually move the Chiefs, Steelers and Bengals (in that order) ahead of Minnesota(they should be #6, they have aweseome depth), San Fran ( In this new order) The 49ers secondary was a big weakness for them last year. Their front seven disguesed inadequate secondary play at every postion. As for my team. Ike Taylor is absolutely a shut down corner and top 5 in the league. He can shadow any reciever one on one and take him out of the game. I was also able to maintain my #2 player in Keenan Lewis who is really coming in to his own and should be even more stout this year. Allen is a fantastic slot cover corner (The big weakness here is CB depth behind these 3.... Chekwa should fit better in this system but the depth is not there compared to the higher ranked secondaries. Polamalu is no big loss as he missed more games than he played last year. The combo of Clark and jefferson who are both versatile enough to cover as well as come up to stop the run will be better than what was on the field last year (with solid backups in Will Allen, and Madieu Williams)

[ravensdan]

My biggest disagreement here is at linebacker. This Steelers unit should be in the top 3. And I have some PFF stats to back this up. Lawrence Timmons was ranked as the 4th best linebacker in the entire league last year. Only one other linebacker (Seattles bobby Wagner) scored positive grades in all 3 major linebacking categories (run defense, pass defense, pass rush). Willis, Bowman, Keuchly etc... can not say this. He even had to cover at outside linebacker with injuries on the outside to Harrison, etc.. last year. Woodley is another linebacker who can do everything well coverage, run defense, and he has been the Steelers best pass rusher, surpassing harrison the last yr/ yr1/2. He should be able to have an even better year this year with new pass rushing and all around one of the best OLB's comming out of the draft in Damontre Moore. Just because he is a rookie his skill should not be discounted. Cornellius Washington can come in on 3rd down and be even more deadly as a pass rushing specialist. Sean Spence is the one question mark due to his horrific injury last year, but if he is able to play, he should be extremely solid next to Timmons. If not I have a couple of proven backups who aren't spectacular but will hold up well with all of the other monsters around them in Stevenson and Shaw. There is also a plan to improve this depth that should solidify this group even more.

[Free Agent]

Dang. You just totally killed the Eagles defensive line's self esteem. I think Fletcher Cox and Sammie Lee Hill, with Jason Jones rotating in makes for a solid interior at the worst.

Although Freeney and Cole are older, they can both be very effective. Freeney just had an off year in Pagano's 3-4 defense. I will admit that he's lost a lot of his explosiveness, but he can still be very effective. Plus, if either Freeney or Cole show any kind of serious regression, Osi Umenyiora or Vinny Curry can step up and play.

I'd say 26th is a bit low for my defensive line.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='ravensdan' timestamp='1365711627' post='1431040']
My biggest disagreement here is at linebacker. This Steelers unit should be in the top 3. And I have some PFF stats to back this up. Lawrence Timmons was ranked as the 4th best linebacker in the entire league last year. Only one other linebacker (Seattles bobby Wagner) scored positive grades in all 3 major linebacking categories (run defense, pass defense, pass rush). Willis, Bowman, Keuchly etc... can not say this. He even had to cover at outside linebacker with injuries on the outside to Harrison, etc.. last year. Woodley is another linebacker who can do everything well coverage, run defense, and he has been the Steelers best pass rusher, surpassing harrison the last yr/ yr1/2. He should be able to have an even better year this year with new pass rushing and all around one of the best OLB's comming out of the draft in Damontre Moore. Just because he is a rookie his skill should not be discounted. Cornellius Washington can come in on 3rd down and be even more deadly as a pass rushing specialist. Sean Spence is the one question mark due to his horrific injury last year, but if he is able to play, he should be extremely solid next to Timmons. If not I have a couple of proven backups who aren't spectacular but will hold up well with all of the other monsters around them in Stevenson and Shaw. There is also a plan to improve this depth that should solidify this group even more.
[/quote]
My guess is Corvus isn't labeling Woodley as a LB but a DE, as they can be interchangeable positions in the 3-4 & 4-3 respectively. I'm not sure, though. That's just a guess.

[Free Agent]

I do however like your remark about the Eagles secondary being under the radar. I feel like my CB group is very solid at worst, with Milliner and Amukamara as a very nice outside tandem, and Boykin locking down the nickel. The depth is also strong with Patrick Robinson and Curtis Brown, who could move into an outside spot if necessary.

My safeties are also a strong group. Your points about Ronde Barber's presence I definitely agree with. Not only does he have key leadership qualities, but he also graded out as one of the top FS in the whole league last year, even at his age. The question is, will he continue to play at such a high level. The quality of my SS position is obviously yet to be determined. Shamarko Thomas has all the tools/skills to be successful, he just needs to learn the defense and catch up to the speed of the pro game. If need be, I also have experienced depth in Atari Bigby and Kurt Coleman who can step in.

I feel like my secondary is pretty good, which the potential to be very good if players like Milliner and Thomas play as well as or better than expected.

[ravensdan]

[quote name='Free Agent' timestamp='1365712290' post='1431054']
I do however like your remark about the Eagles secondary being under the radar. I feel like my CB group is very solid at worst, with Milliner and Amukamara as a very nice outside tandem, and Boykin locking down the nickel. The depth is also strong with Patrick Robinson and Curtis Brown, who could move into an outside spot if necessary.

My safeties are also a strong group. Your points about Ronde Barber's presence I definitely agree with. Not only does he have key leadership qualities, but he also graded out as one of the top FS in the whole league last year, even at his age. The question is, will he continue to play at such a high level. The quality of my SS position is obviously yet to be determined. Shamarko Thomas has all the tools/skills to be successful, he just needs to learn the defense and catch up to the speed of the pro game. If need be, I also have experienced depth in Atari Bigby and Kurt Coleman who can step in.

I feel like my secondary is pretty good, which the potential to be very good if players like Milliner and Thomas play as well as or better than expected.
[/quote]

Actually this is another secondary I would rank ahead of the 49ers, they were flying under the radar.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365683464' post='1430685']
[b]B10. New Orleans Saints[/b][b]:[/b]
Back Four:
CB1: [b]Vontae Davis[/b] SS: [color=#ff0000][b]Kenny Phillips[/b][/color] FS: [b]Malcolm Jenkins[/b] CB2: [b]Devin McCourty[/b]
(Notable Depth: Jabari Greer, Duke Williams)
[/quote]

With the pieces I have at each position, I'd argue against the notion that this isn't a lights-out group. I have three CBs who were numbers ones in 2012. While I'll likely have all 3 of them on the field the majority of the time, in my base looks, McCourty will take over at FS with Greer at CB. At just 25, Jenkins certainly has the ability to rebound, but he fell into the abyss last season. Fortunately, Isa Abdul-Quddus was a standout in coverage in a limited role, allowing just 7 receptions on 16 targets, no TDs, 2 INTs with 6 PDs and a QB rating of 21.9. With his production, he should be more than capable of handling the reigns if needed be, and Johnny Adams should be a fine Dime CB. Then there's Duke Williams. He was reportedly targeted 76 times, allowing only 17 receptions for 169 yards. He also made 62 tackles against ball carriers, limiting them to 103 yards, and a YPC of 1.67. Between every player (7) whose data was available in 2012, 6 of them starters, each one was targeted an average of 49.7 times and allowed 24.6 receptions, a completion percentage of just 49.4%. Each also allowed an average of 271.4 yards through the entire season, and 2 TDs to 2.1 INTs. Together, this secondary allowed 1,900 passing yards, 14 TDs to 15 INTs, 40 PDs, and a QB rating of 61.5. That's standout corps, in my opinion.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1365693857' post='1430825']


I don't think I can place the Lions secondary any higher since their safeties aren't as talented as the teams above.

The CB group is solid with Jennings and Porter on the outsides with Sandrick at the slot.
[/quote]
Jennings takes away have the field. Doesn't need saftey help.
Spivey is a hard hitter who is also very good in converage
Lewis is a very good, top 15 FS.
Porter is a big play waiting to happen.
Shandrick makes the slot unusable.

It might not take out Colston.

But Jennings can take Dez
Porter has a disadvantage with Colston bc of his size, but Lewis can help him out.
Orlando beats Shorts(not bc he's bad. Because 65 as an opposing QBR)
Leaving Spivey roaming free.

Leroy Hill is good in coverage(but then again, who can cover Grahm?)

I can take the saints passing attack I think. Brees is an advantage though.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1365719834' post='1431133']
Jennings takes away have the field. Doesn't need saftey help.
Spivey is a hard hitter who is also very good in converage
Lewis is a very good, top 15 FS.
Porter is a big play waiting to happen.
Shandrick makes the slot unusable.

It might not take out Colston.

But Jennings can take Dez
Porter has a disadvantage with Colston bc of his size, but Lewis can help him out.
Orlando beats Shorts(not bc he's bad. Because 65 as an opposing QBR)
Leaving Spivey roaming free.

Leroy Hill is good in coverage(but then again, who can cover Grahm?)

I can take the saints passing attack I think. Brees is an advantage though.
[/quote]

Who has Mike Williams? I also wouldn't say the Scandrick beats Shorts III. Scandrick had success against #3 WRs, while Shorts III was an outside WR, thereby having success against starters. I personally think the criteria is a little steep. A Top 10 secondary doesn't necessarily have to be able to shut down the best WR corps. It should be judged relative to other secondaries.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1365719834' post='1431133']
Jennings takes away have the field. Doesn't need saftey help.
Spivey is a hard hitter who is also very good in converage
Lewis is a very good, top 15 FS.
Porter is a big play waiting to happen.
Shandrick makes the slot unusable.

It might not take out Colston.

But Jennings can take Dez
Porter has a disadvantage with Colston bc of his size, but Lewis can help him out.
Orlando beats Shorts(not bc he's bad. Because 65 as an opposing QBR)
Leaving Spivey roaming free.

Leroy Hill is good in coverage(but then again, who can cover Grahm?)

I can take the saints passing attack I think. Brees is an advantage though.
[/quote]

Who has Mike Williams? I also wouldn't say that Scandrick outright beats Shorts III. Scandrick had success against #3 WRs, while Shorts III was an outside WR, thereby having success against starters. I personally think the criteria is a little steep. A Top 10 secondary doesn't necessarily have to be able to shut down the best WR corps. It should be judged relative to other secondaries.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1365721682' post='1431159']


Who has Mike Williams? I also wouldn't say that Scandrick outright beats Shorts III. Scandrick had success against #3 WRs, while Shorts III was an outside WR, thereby having success against starters. I personally think the criteria is a little steep. A Top 10 secondary doesn't necessarily have to be able to shut down the best WR corps. It should be judged relative to other secondaries.
[/quote]
Sterling Moore would have to take Williams. And Spivey would help lay the wood with four WR sets

[ravensdan]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1365721682' post='1431159']
Who has Mike Williams? I also wouldn't say that Scandrick outright beats Shorts III. Scandrick had success against #3 WRs, while Shorts III was an outside WR, thereby having success against starters. I personally think the criteria is a little steep. A Top 10 secondary doesn't necessarily have to be able to shut down the best WR corps. It should be judged relative to other secondaries.
[/quote]

This Saints passing game will not be slowed without a wicked pass rush.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='ravensdan' timestamp='1365722508' post='1431168']
This Saints passing game will not be slowed without a wicked pass rush.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. It's hard for any secondary to defend a capable WR corps in a 7 on 7 drill, so I don't think that there should be a bench mark for this category outside of who has the better unit on paper.