Defense Alignment Options for 2013

[gabefergy]

[quote name='ClintLB8' timestamp='1363407699' post='1399968']
LDE - Courtney Upshaw
LDT - Arthur Jones/Pernell McPhee, Chris Canty
RDT - Haloti Ngata, Marcus Spears
RDE - Terrell Suggs

SLB - Jameel McClain, Albert McClellan
MLB - Arthur Brown, Josh Bynes
WLB - NEED, Nigel Carr

If we could get Arthur Brown then the 4-3 could work but Id prefer to stay 3-4
[/quote]

I would play McPhee at LDE and have Upshaw (if he can drop a few pounds) play the SAM. I think there are quite a few Will backers in this draft. If we got Brown he would be an excellent Will and I think McClain/Bynes would be ok at the Mike spot.

[gregreid5]

I will list our DL/LB and their best positions in my opinion

Players best in a 3-4
Haloti Ngata- 3-4 DT, 4-3 DT, 3-4 NT. Haloti is an incredible player and will flourish in any defense
Terrell Suggs- 3-4 OLB. I really feel he fits poorly in a 4-3. He can cover and rush the passer and the 3-4 maximizes him as a player
Chris Canty- 3-4 DE. He played DT on the Giants but he is much more affective as a DE in the 3-4 and was a better player on the cowboys because of it
Marcus Spears- 3-4 DE he is a good 3-4 DE and would not fit well as a DE or DT in the 4-3
Arthur Jones- 3-4 DE He could probably play DT in a 4-3 but I like his abilities in a 3-4 better
Terrance Cody- 3-4 NT Maybe he improves maybe not but you may as well cut him if you go 4-3
Courtney Upshaw- 3-4 OLB He can occasionally drop and has all his experience in college and the pros as OLB in a 3-4
Jameel McClain- 3-4 ILB He really doesnt fit well in a 4-3 because he is not so great in space.

Better in a 4-3
Pernell McPhee 4-3 DE I think McPhee is best as a DE in the 4-3 and has looked best when he got to rush from the outside on the rare occasion we have used it


I like us staying multiple but 3-4 should be our base D and our two new additional solidify that

[gregreid5]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1363555318' post='1402274']
I would play McPhee at LDE and have Upshaw (if he can drop a few pounds) play the SAM. I think there are quite a few Will backers in this draft. If we got Brown he would be an excellent Will and I think McClain/Bynes would be ok at the Mike spot.
[/quote]

upshaw cannot play OLB in a 4-3. He is MUCH more suited to play DE than OLB. An OLB in a 4-3 should be 240 pounds and quick in space. Upshaw is 272-275 and not quick in space. He would be completely inaffective in that role.

[da#1ravensfan]

I will use multiple fronts based on the situation and the strengths of our players. No based fronts!

[gabefergy]

[quote name='gregreid5' timestamp='1363565577' post='1402475']
upshaw cannot play OLB in a 4-3. He is MUCH more suited to play DE than OLB. An OLB in a 4-3 should be 240 pounds and quick in space. Upshaw is 272-275 and not quick in space. He would be completely inaffective in that role.
[/quote]

That's why I said [i]if he can drop a few pounds, [/i]he would be better suited as a SAM. He is undersized to play LDE. SOLB in a 4-3 are not the small fast LB, that is the Will. I think he could be very effective at SAM like Kiwanuka or Koa Misi in Miami.

[The Raven]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1363555318' post='1402274']
I would play McPhee at LDE and have Upshaw (if he can drop a few pounds) play the SAM. I think there are quite a few Will backers in this draft. If we got Brown he would be an excellent Will and I think McClain/Bynes would be ok at the Mike spot.
[/quote]

Playing Upshaw as a 4-3 OLB would be a complete waste of his talents.

[The Raven]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1363566265' post='1402492']
That's why I said [i]if he can drop a few pounds, [/i]he would be better suited as a SAM. He is undersized to play LDE. SOLB in a 4-3 are not the small fast LB, that is the Will. I think he could be very effective at SAM like Kiwanuka or Koa Misi in Miami.
[/quote]

He weighs 270. Hardly undersized. Lets look at his skill set...

- Elite run stopper. Anchors well, and is terrific at playing down the line.
- Decent pass rusher. Can get solid push.
- Terrible in coverage. Could be improved by losing weight but why should we bother?
- Matches up well with tackles and tight ends.

Yeah, maybe he could be an okay 4-3 OLB if he lost weight but why on earth would we do that? It's a waste of his skill set.

[BloodRaven]

Upshaw is oversized as it is, he looks like he could benefit from dropping to 260.

Scrap that, everyone was oversized last season just look how tired the front 7 was at the Bowl compared to the Niners, no muscle tone with stomachs sticking out. Right now we only have one lineman under 315lb so it will be a concern going forward.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1363566754' post='1402502']
Upshaw is oversized as it is, he looks like he could benefit from dropping to 260.

Scrap that, everyone was oversized last season just look how tired the front 7 was at the Bowl compared to the Niners, no muscle tone with stomachs sticking out. Right now we only have one lineman under 315lb so it will be a concern going forward.
[/quote]
Thats no different than any other teams 34 Dline though. Those guys don't usually have million dollar bodies. I fully expect the LB unit to be more athletic after the draft, Suggs is healthy(ish) and Upshaw's had a full offseason of NFL level training.

[gregreid5]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1363566265' post='1402492']
That's why I said [i]if he can drop a few pounds, [/i]he would be better suited as a SAM. He is undersized to play LDE. SOLB in a 4-3 are not the small fast LB, that is the Will. I think he could be very effective at SAM like Kiwanuka or Koa Misi in Miami.
[/quote]

upshaw would need to drop 30-35 pounds to play SLB and there is nothing about his game that translates to LB in a 4-3. I also dont think 30-35 pounds is a few but i guess you might consider 15% of someones weight a few pounds. I view a few as 2-5.

Upshaw would be fine as a DE in a 4-3. He is short at under 6'2 and still weighs over 270. Him and Suggs could play end up a 4-3. A 4-3 would just take a lot of our players and play them in a position that they wouldnt excel in. At the same time, we would take an extra DL off the field for an extra LB, the one position that we have one returning player who has ever started, the guy with a spine injury

[RavensDE]

I like how this topic was presented. It makes the assumptions that we run both 4-3, 3-4 and other sets but really is a question of what we will focus on or have the correct personel for. So off the top, thanks I like that.

I think so many of the guys we have are versitile and our best ability as a defensive teams heas been moving guys around and fitting the pieces together as best we can. I do see more players suited to 4-3 sets on the face of it but I still think we shy away from the 4-3 as any sort of primary or default set.

The Talent
NT
We do have a few options at NT in Ngata and Cody and I'd bet my bottom dollar we get another big boy before we head into preseason. Ngata has been able to act as a sort of outside NT/ mobile DE that almost defies logic. Big fast and strong, but more scary is his quickness and tenacity. What a freak. I don't think we want to be in a position where he is our 1st NT, which again fits the 4-3 idea, but in my mind we like that he can line up anywhere. (This does support your 4-3 ideas since we lack the 3-4 NT depth at this point)
DT/DE
Art Jones and Canty play DT and can go outside to DE yet aren't typically the kind of 3-4 NT we need for those sets. McPhee also fits this category although he is built like a DE his skills have shown to be more suited to the DT spot. (Again this supports your 4-3 idea since all of these guys can rotate as typical 4-3 DT's but undersized 3-4 NT's)
OLB/DE
Almost every OLB we have can be a DE or has been. Suggs, Upshaw, McClellan, McAdoo, and whoever else I'm missing can all line up as 4-3 DE's, but then again that's kind of the point of a 3-4 that our OLB's can rush and the O doesn't know where we are coming from. I feel like Spears is more of a 4-3 DE but has some experience as a OLB but thats a grey memory so... (Also supports your idea that our personel would fit a 4-3.)

How I think we shake things out...
All in all I think we get a few more big bodies and run a multitude of sets that best fit the situation and our opponent but we will also put players in positions that they can be successful in. For instance we realized Kruger was average at coverage and run D last year and let him rush more putting Suggs in more of a coverage run D role (as JJ had always done for him) and also subbed Kruger out in favor of better run D defender Upshaw. If Spears shows trouble standing up but excels with his hand on the ground we might use those formations more when that makes the most sense, or sub him out when it doesn't.

Last word...
I like the topic. Will we use more 4-3 due to personnel? Not knowing what these guys can do yet and just looking at what I think I know about them, combined with Pees' strategy of putting guys where they can do whats asked of them, I'd have to say yes we will use 4-3 more. That said it's a long way off and hopefully we have a few more vets to sign for cheap and a ton of draft picks to add to the mix. (I mean if we sign Dumervil or Harrison this whole equation changes in 2 seconds.)

[gabefergy]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1363566356' post='1402493']
Playing Upshaw as a 4-3 OLB would be a complete waste of his talents.
[/quote]

What are his talents? I think he is very strong in run support which is the primary role of the SAM OLB. He isnt a great edge rusher, at least not yet, but I think he could be a very effective blitzer, also what your OLB brings in a 4-3. He can drop in coverage at times, which fits the role of the SAM. Let me know what I am missing here.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1363566551' post='1402498']
He weighs 270. Hardly undersized. Lets look at his skill set...

- Elite run stopper. Anchors well, and is terrific at playing down the line.
- Decent pass rusher. Can get solid push.
- Terrible in coverage. Could be improved by losing weight but why should we bother?
- Matches up well with tackles and tight ends.

Yeah, maybe he could be an okay 4-3 OLB if he lost weight but why on earth would we do that? It's a waste of his skill set.
[/quote]

He's an awful pass-rusher, let's be honest. He doesnt have the speed to beat NFL OTs. Maybe he will get an occassional pressure or sack, but he will be terribly ineffective as a DE where he is always rushing from a 3 point stance.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='gregreid5' timestamp='1363569018' post='1402530']
upshaw would need to drop 30-35 pounds to play SLB and there is nothing about his game that translates to LB in a 4-3. I also dont think 30-35 pounds is a few but i guess you might consider 15% of someones weight a few pounds. I view a few as 2-5.

Upshaw would be fine as a DE in a 4-3. He is short at under 6'2 and still weighs over 270. Him and Suggs could play end up a 4-3. A 4-3 would just take a lot of our players and play them in a position that they wouldnt excel in. At the same time, we would take an extra DL off the field for an extra LB, the one position that we have one returning player who has ever started, the guy with a spine injury
[/quote]
First off he wouldnt have to drop 30 pounds to play SAM. I mentioned to perfect examples of OLBs who play at 255+, and they are pretty good in that role. Most 4-3 LDEs are 6'5 280+. Upshaw is on the small side for a LDE and his short arms are a major negative. I just see him getting overwhelmed if he had to line up against big RTs. One of the main reasons why he slipped in the draft is because he is a bit of a tweener. McPhee profiles as a more traditional LDE

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1363583332' post='1402790']


What are his talents? I think he is very strong in run support which is the primary role of the SAM OLB. He isnt a great edge rusher, at least not yet, but I think he could be a very effective blitzer, also what your OLB brings in a 4-3. He can drop in coverage at times, which fits the role of the SAM. Let me know what I am missing here.
[/quote]
I sort of agree with you here. I think Upshaw is a lot like Shea McClellin, who I really liked a lot last year in the draft. He was a guy widely seen as a 2nd round talent but I felt like he was a 1st. Sadly, he went before our pick but he was a player who can and did play everywhere on the front 7. I think Upshaw can be the same type of player except I can't see him as a MIKE.

Having Upshaw as a SAM in the 4-3 would allow us to also easily go 5-2, by bringing him up into the DL with say Ngata at Jones or Canty, for instance. To make that work, you need to be faster at LB. If we could get Arthur Jones, Khaseem Greene, or Jelani Jenkins we can make it work. All three of those LBs are very quick. Jenkins has had injury issues but I really like him as a football player.

With that said, I doubt we go 4-3 as a base. I think we remain hybrid with a 3-4 base defense.

[arnie_uk]

Matt Zenitz ‏@mzenitz
(2 of 2): Harbaugh acknowledged that with the additions of Canty and Spears that Ngata could see more time inside at NT

So I guess I was correct. Ngata at nose, canty spears McPhee jones Tyson all rotating at de is how it looks

[Bltravens]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1363719856' post='1405155']
Matt Zenitz ‏@mzenitz
(2 of 2): Harbaugh acknowledged that with the additions of Canty and Spears that Ngata could see more time inside at NT

So I guess I was correct. Ngata at nose, canty spears McPhee jones Tyson all rotating at de is how it looks
[/quote]
Good. I wanted this move to happen for the last couple of weeks. Really its the best way to rectify the problems on the Dline. Ngata is instantly the most athletic NT in the NFL, but his power and knowledge of leverage instantly help the interior of the line and help the LBs.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1363719856' post='1405155']
Matt Zenitz ‏@mzenitz
(2 of 2): Harbaugh acknowledged that with the additions of Canty and Spears that Ngata could see more time inside at NT

So I guess I was correct. Ngata at nose, canty spears McPhee jones Tyson all rotating at de is how it looks
[/quote]
I would really like that line-up. A lot. Hopefully it can help Ngata stay healthy as that has been an issue.

[MrPlankton]

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3599/haloti-ngata

Ravens coach John Harbaugh indicated that Haloti Ngata will play more true nose tackle moving forward.

[arnie_uk]

Multiple threads discussing this already

[Moderator 3]

Which thread should this be moved to?

[MrPlankton]

[quote name='Moderator 3' timestamp='1364068239' post='1412266']
Which thread should this be moved to?
[/quote]

http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/51975-4-3-defense-to-be-primary-defense/

Maybe this one. Didn't notice it at first.