Bobby Rainey - Good, but does he do enough?

[rmw10]

I usually try not to create threads about one specific player, but I find Rainey's case interesting. Obviously we were all able to witness him playing some great football last preseason, but that still wasn't enough to get him on the field.

Assuming health, Rainey is behind the following:
Ray Rice
Bernard Pierce
Anthony Allen (primarily for ST duties)

Now, one can make the argument that Rainey should be above Allen as a RB, but what can he do to earn that spot? Obviously with Rice and Pierce in the equation, Rainey likely won't get any carries. Special Teams? Well, that's his issue. Rainey is too small to do any ST duty besides returns, which is already covered by JJ, David Reed, etc. Does he offer anything outside of being a Ray Rice clone or a returner? Being a Ray Rice clone sounds great on paper, but it doesn't do him any good at getting on the field when we have the original Ray Rice.

So, is Rainey simply always going to be the odd man out, barring injury? He showed some great potential last preseason, but just doesn't seem to fit the roster as its currently structured.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='rmw10' timestamp='1363488877' post='1401551']
I usually try not to create threads about one specific player, but I find Rainey's case interesting. Obviously we were all able to witness him playing some great football last preseason, but that still wasn't enough to get him on the field.

Assuming health, Rainey is behind the following:
Ray Rice
Bernard Pierce
Anthony Allen (primarily for ST duties)

Now, one can make the argument that Rainey should be above Allen as a RB, but what can he do to earn that spot? Obviously with Rice and Pierce in the equation, Rainey likely won't get any carries. Special Teams? Well, that's his issue. Rainey is too small to do any ST duty besides returns, which is already covered by JJ, David Reed, etc. Does he offer anything outside of being a Ray Rice clone or a returner? Being a Ray Rice clone sounds great on paper, but it doesn't do him any good at getting on the field when we have the original Ray Rice.

So, is Rainey simply always going to be the odd man out, barring injury? He showed some great potential last preseason, but just doesn't seem to fit the roster as its currently structured.
[/quote]
Rainey is a Ray Rice clone. Too much potential. I think we move Allen to FB (he excelled at blocking in college), and keep him

[GrimCoconut]

Here is the interesting thing:

There's talk we could cut Leach. If we do, who will be the FB? Perhaps we move Allen to the FB, or even Berry. Berry was very big last year, IIRC. He even looked like a FB to me. I was shocked when I saw him. Allen does a very good job blocking on ST for returns. Personally, I'd like to see those guys possibly compete for FB.

JJ is a return man, yep. But with Boldin gone he may have a bigger role on offense and thus be more vital to it, similar to Webb. I could see us needing a return man, which may be why we brought back David Reed, as questionable as it seemed to people. Reed is a KR specialist but not much of a PR specialist. See Asa Jackson & Bobby Rainey for those duties.

[arnie_uk]

What I'd say is in a few years pierce will be number one and it'd be nice to have a guy like him at two backing pierce up. After rices deal is done uno.

[rmw10]

I mean, I really like the guy, but no matter what, I just can't seem to find a spot for the guy. In regards to taking Rice's spot one day, I just don't think it's going to happen. Ray Rice is 26 years old and Bobby Rainey is 25 years old. They're aging at almost the same time, even though Rice has been in the league since 2008. Even if JJ shifts out of return duties, I see other guys on the roster that would probably be next in line before Rainey.

[dhstandard]

[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][b] @GrimCoconut- [/b]I doubt we cut Leach. He doesn't play a high percentage of plays but when he does play, he makes a major difference. Ray Rice can't run as well without a quality fullback. When Rice and Leach are out and Pierce is in, it really makes the defense go into a pass defense first mindset. Having Leach leave the game may benefit Pierce a lot more in game than we are aware.[/font][/size]


I kind of want to see Leach involved on pass plays as well with Rice out. He is a much better blocker and can still run and catch. I wonder if Caldwell would incorporate him in more pass plays and draws. He's much more creative than Cam and he could utilize his skillset much better.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1363489466' post='1401569']
[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][b] @GrimCoconut- [/b]I doubt we cut Leach. He doesn't play a high percentage of plays but when he does play, he makes a major difference. Ray Rice can't run as well without a quality fullback. When Rice and Leach are out and Pierce is in, it really makes the defense go into a pass defense first mindset. Having Leach leave the game may benefit Pierce a lot in games.[/font]


I kind of want to see Leach involved on pass plays as well with Rice out. He is a much better blocker and can still run and catch. I wonder if Caldwell would incorporate him in more pass plays and draws. He's much more creative than Cam and he could utilize his skillset much better.
[/quote]
I don't think Leach is guaranteed a roster spot but won't be surprised if he stays, either. He's making 4.5M this year? Not sure about that, but I think he is. I believe 3M is base salary, that we could save if he was cut.

[Free Agent]

I loved Rainey in the preseason. He may be a Rice clone, but just like Rice he looked like a pure playmaker to me.

I think moving Allen to FB would be a great move, if we cut Leach. Rice, Pierce and Rainey at RB with Allen at FB is a pretty sweet lineup in my eyes.

[dhstandard]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1363489676' post='1401573']
I don't think Leach is guaranteed a roster spot but won't be surprised if he stays, either. He's making 4.5M this year? Not sure about that, but I think he is. I believe 3M is base salary, that we could save if he was cut.
[/quote]

Everyone has a cap hit but is saving 3 million really worth losing what Leach has to offer? I think he has been underutilized to this point and that 3 million wouldn't amount to much in the long run when compared to what we lose. You know a fullback is good when even the commentators are pointing out his blocks twice a game.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1363489880' post='1401578']
Everyone has a cap hit but is saving 3 million really worth losing what Leach has to offer? I think he has been underutilized to this point and that 3 million wouldn't amount to much in the long run when compared to what we lose. You know a fullback is good when even the commentators are pointing out his blocks twice a game.
[/quote]
All I am saying is, there is a very realistic chance he is cut. I'd like to keep Leach around. I love him. If I thought he could play LB I'd put him in the middle at Mike, lol. But 4.5M for a FB is a lot of money. He does help Rice a lot, but that's 20% of his snaps or whatever his snaps are. You know as well as I do he has a very realistic chance of being cut. Come on, now. I'm not saying I want Leach cut. It's like the whole Boldin thing. People got on me because I said trade Boldin while he has value rather than keep him around and let him decline. I said to pull a Pats--trade a player before their decline. We did just that. I'm not saying I want Leach gone. I am saying that it may be time to move on and I can see it happen.

Sometimes, I feel like people take a negative outlook on a player's future here as if that person wants that player to receive said negative outcome. I don't necessarily want Leach gone. I just think there is a very good chance it happens.

[dhstandard]

[quote name='Free Agent' timestamp='1363489778' post='1401576']
I loved Rainey in the preseason. He may be a Rice clone, but just like Rice he looked like a pure playmaker to me.

I think moving Allen to FB would be a great move, if we cut Leach. Rice, Pierce and Rainey at RB with Allen at FB is a pretty sweet lineup in my eyes.
[/quote]

Diminishing marginal returns. A three headed monster in the running game especially when the league is geared towards the pass, is overrated. Having two quality running backs is more than enough. Three is just a crowd. Even if Rainey becomes a great player, I'd rather have 2 great RBs and a great FB than 3 great RBs and an OK FB.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1363490134' post='1401583']
Diminishing marginal returns. A three headed monster in the running game especially when the league is geared towards the pass, is overrated. Having two quality running backs is more than enough. Three is just a crowd. Even if Rainey becomes a great player, I'd rather have 2 great RBs and a great FB than 3 great RBs and an OK FB.
[/quote]
Lol, wait a minute. I love this quote here:

[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1363490134' post='1401583']
A three headed monster in the running game especially when the [b]league is geared towards the pass[/b], is overrated.
[/quote]
Yet you feel like a player playing an archaic position in the traditional form (full back) when the league is geared towards the pass, playing 20% of the snaps, isn't overrated? That's a waste of money, mate. 4.5M for 20% of the snaps (that's the number I keep hearing, anyway) is a rip-off. Straight-up. And your quote here really baffles me that you even feel a traditional FB is even worth the money in this day & age. I love Leach just like you, but come on my man.

[Free Agent]

[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1363490134' post='1401583']
Diminishing marginal returns. [b]A three headed monster in the running game especially when the league is geared towards the pass, is overrated.[/b] Having two quality running backs is more than enough. Three is just a crowd. Even if Rainey becomes a great player, I'd rather have 2 great RBs and a great FB than 3 great RBs and an OK FB.
[/quote]

By that same argument, it would be a waste to overpay Leach, who is here because of his impact in the running game. Plus, having two RBs who are just as dangerous as receivers would also be beneficial to a passing offense.

[Free Agent]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1363490368' post='1401585']

Yet you feel like a player playing an archaic position in the traditional form (full back) when the league is geared towards the pass, playing 20% of the snaps, isn't overrated? That's a waste of money, mate. 4.5M for 20% of the snaps (that's the number I keep hearing, anyway) is a rip-off. Straight-up. And your quote here really baffles me that you even feel a traditional FB is even worth the money in this day & age. I love Leach just like you, but come on my man.
[/quote]

Bingo.

[dhstandard]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1363490368' post='1401585']
Lol, wait a minute. I love this quote here:


Yet you feel like a player playing an archaic position in the traditional form (full back) when the league is geared towards the pass, playing 20% of the snaps, isn't overrated? That's a waste of money, mate. 4.5M for 20% of the snaps (that's the number I keep hearing, anyway) is a rip-off. Straight-up. And your quote here really baffles me that you even feel a traditional FB is even worth the money in this day & age. I love Leach just like you, but come on my man.
[/quote]

It does make sense in context. Having 3 rbs in a pass first league is unnecessary. The running game still exists though, and Ray will be at his best with Leach. You add Rainey, you help with maybe 5 percent of the plays. [b] Leach played 42% of the offensive snaps [/b]If you take him away, 42% of our plays will be worse. When he is in, he helps.

I'd pay 4.2 mil for 42% of snaps. With Caldwell's system he may play even more like I said. Be involved in pass blocking, draws, and receiving as well.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1363493005' post='1401614']
It does make sense in context. Having 3 rbs in a pass first league is unnecessary. The running game still exists though, and Ray will be at his best with Leach. You add Rainey, you help with maybe 5 percent of the plays. [b] Leach played 42% of the offensive snaps [/b]If you take him away, 42% of our plays will be worse. When he is in, he helps.

I'd pay 4.2 mil for 42% of snaps. With Caldwell's system he may play even more like I said. Be involved in pass blocking, draws, and receiving as well.
[/quote]
Ahh, that makes more sense, honestly. I thought the "20%" thing was a little suspicious, hence why I even stated that in my post that's what I kept hearing.

Still, that doesn't take away from the point that we do not know what will happen with Leach, and that there's a very good chance he could or could not be here with us going forward. The best thing he has going for him right now is we don't have anyone supposedly that we know of on this roster who can do what he does. That doesn't mean that player doesn't exist on this team, though. As I said before with Boldin, I will say it again: there's a very good chance Leach is off this team in 2013. Not sure it does happen, but there's an undeniable chance it occurs.

[dhstandard]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1363493596' post='1401622']
Ahh, that makes more sense, honestly. I thought the "20%" thing was a little suspicious, hence why I even stated that in my post that's what I kept hearing.

Still, that doesn't take away from the point that we do not know what will happen with Leach, and that there's a very good chance he could or could not be here with us going forward. The best thing he has going for him right now is we don't have anyone supposedly that we know of on this roster who can do what he does. That doesn't mean that player doesn't exist on this team, though. As I said before with Boldin, I will say it again: there's a very good chance Leach is off this team in 2013. Not sure it does happen, but there's an undeniable chance it occurs.
[/quote]

I guess were on the same page. Anything can happen. Nobody expected Pollard to be released. It really amazes me though that teams will release quality players over a few million, then sign guys to play 4th string receiver, back up return man, or Goal-line stand/4th down stop D-linemen to contracts for pretty much half the money they saved.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1363493807' post='1401628']
I guess were on the same page. Anything can happen. Nobody expected Pollard to be released. It really amazes me though that teams will release quality players over a few million, then sign guys to play 4th string receiver, back up return man, or Goal-line stand/4th down stop D-linemen.
[/quote]
On that subject, I think David Reed was signed as insurance for JJ if he takes a bigger role on offense as a WR. I know it's not a popular idea, but I can see it happen. Also, I think the FO wants to see what Reed can do before they cut their losses and it's a really small contract. He can very easily be cut. Very easily.

Pollard's a good player against the run, really emotional, hard hitter, etc. But he does have his problems.

[dhstandard]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1363493931' post='1401629']
On that subject, I think David Reed was signed as insurance for JJ if he takes a bigger role on offense as a WR. I know it's not a popular idea, but I can see it happen. Also, I think the FO wants to see what Reed can do before they cut their losses and it's a really small contract. He can very easily be cut. Very easily.

Pollard's a good player against the run, really emotional, hard hitter, etc. But he does have his problems.
[/quote]

I wasn't really referring to Reed but he was in the back of my mind. I'd rather keep Thompson as insurance for his dirt poor rookie contract. He would have been better than Reed had he kept playing in my opinion. Despite reports of bad hands he made every catch in pre-season including some really tough ones as well. One that sticks out was one he lept up for but landed out of bounds. Would have been insane had that pass been a little more in-bounds.

[Jitamon]

After much reflection, I have to say I believe Leach stays for the time being... My reasoning is this:

1-We invested bookoo bucks in Ray Rice and our running game, and we have not yet found a suitable replacement (Allen? )

2-Leach is a statistical factual positive in all Football statistics and metrics for the Ravens as of 2013. These are the type of players that earn the $$$, they do not get cut until production drops or cap concerns outweigh production.

2- He can run the ball, catch the ball and do whatever the OC needs him to do. and he is a pro bowl FB, and a staff/player favorite who "plays like a Raven" BUT most importantly "thinks and acts like a Raven" also.

3- Leach is a tuff SOB.. He blows up rushing linebackers, DT's and whoever else gets in his way..

I just gave my top 3 reasoning's why he stays, until we find better.

As to Rainey Like someone said he is a RR clone.. Nuff said
And to take this to another level he allows our practices, and our #1 starters to practice against what the rest of the NFL is like, much like how they used Tyrod to practice the Pistol and whatnot in our SB run..

[pitchblack_20]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1363489005' post='1401556']
Rainey is a Ray Rice clone. Too much potential. I think we move Allen to FB (he excelled at blocking in college), and keep him
[/quote]
Good idea. We could use AA like we used Le'Ron McClain.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='Jitamon' timestamp='1363501255' post='1401689']
After much reflection, I have to say I believe Leach stays for the time being... My reasoning is this:

1-We invested bookoo bucks in Ray Rice and our running game, and we have not yet found a suitable replacement (Allen? )

2-Leach is a statistical factual positive in all Football statistics and metrics for the Ravens as of 2013. These are the type of players that earn the $$$, they do not get cut until production drops or cap concerns outweigh production.

2- He can run the ball, catch the ball and do whatever the OC needs him to do. and he is a pro bowl FB, and a staff/player favorite who "plays like a Raven" BUT most importantly "thinks and acts like a Raven" also.

3- Leach is a tuff SOB.. He blows up rushing linebackers, DT's and whoever else gets in his way..

I just gave my top 3 reasoning's why he stays, until we find better.

As to Rainey Like someone said he is a RR clone.. Nuff said
And to take this to another level he allows our practices, and our #1 starters to practice against what the rest of the NFL is like, much like how they used Tyrod to practice the Pistol and whatnot in our SB run..
[/quote]
Those are all good points. We'll have to see what happens in regard to Leach. I could have given you a bunch of reasons for Boldin to stay & nobody expected the blindside blitz of Bernard Pollard.

I like Bobby Rainey and depending on what the FO wants to do with Leach, Allen, Berry & JJ we could see Rainey have a greater role on this team.

[PurpleCityLights]

We will not have a FB for long & yes Bobby Bernard and Ray will be our RBs............AA will be cut.

[CapoRocky]

Bobby Rainey needs to find a nitch. He could end up as a slot receiver, punt returner, or something. Will he beat out Rice or Pierce? No! Will he challenge Allen or Berry? Yes! Allen is a bruising blocker who might eventually end up at FB if it means signing a high priced guy like Dumerville or something. Let's see how the owners' meetings play out this week before we start speculating on cutting Leach. Besides, there is always a cap hit or dead money involved with releasing players under contract. Allen has a secondary role as being Jones's primary blocker on the return team. Berry was just signed for another year, so someone in the front office thinks highly of his potential and contributions to special teams. Still, you don't release talent, so if there is any way to keep Rainey they will.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='CapoRocky' timestamp='1363528898' post='1401782']
Bobby Rainey needs to find a nitch. He could end up as a slot receiver, punt returner, or something. Will he beat out Rice or Pierce? No! Will he challenge Allen or Berry? Yes! Allen is a bruising blocker who might eventually end up at FB if it means signing a high priced guy like Dumerville or something. Let's see how the owners' meetings play out this week before we start speculating on cutting Leach. Besides, there is always a cap hit or dead money involved with releasing players under contract. Allen has a secondary role as being Jones's primary blocker on the return team. Berry was just signed for another year, so someone in the front office thinks highly of his potential and contributions to special teams. Still, you don't release talent, so if there is any way to keep Rainey they will.
[/quote]
Leach is in the final year of his deal. Any dead money is still dead regardless as there is no acceleration of cap space due to this being his final year.

With that said, I agree. Leach is up in the air. I suspect the FO won't release him unless they must, perhaps even extending him if they really want him to pay him more in line with other FBs. Felton got a much cheaper deal than Leach, for instance. I know we said we would not restructure, but someone also said that if there was a FA they really wanted they would do it.

I want to say it was Steve or Ozzie who said that.

[Latch]

i fell in love with bobby last preseason. however, don't think I'll be starting him above Ray/Bernard anytime soon unless there is an injury or something. AA is also promising, and he is a key player on ST. it really sucks because i don't think Bobby would be willing to stick around for 2+ more years waiting for either Pierce or Rice to leave. i mean, it would be awesome but he should recognize that, if he can stay healthy and he develops, he could easily be a starter for like AZ or something.

[gregreid5]

I felt that we should have cut leach to keep Boldin but the Ravens went leach and while i disagree we have to at least keep leach.

As for Rainey, I really like him and feel like he can be a very good RB in this league. Hes clearly a better RB than Allen. The problem is we have a stud in Rice and a guy who could start on teams in Pierce. Our #3 RB isnt going to get a lot of carries unless there is an injury so it makes sense to keep Allen because hes a possible pro bowl special teams player. Allen is an ELITE blocker in the return game and thats why we need him. It also makes sense that he could translate to FB because of how good a blocker he is.

Possible scenarios

We try to stash rainey and practice squad again. Leach is FB for 2013, Allen moves to FB in 2014 and rainey becomes RB #3.

We keep 4 RBs with Allen being one of those special teams guys and us keeping an extra roster spot to make sure rainey is on the roster in 2014. I doubt this happens because Ozzie values OL/DL/OLB/ILB for extra roster spots way more than a RB

[arnie_uk]

For the record someone on another board did some work. Leach is our highest paid player on a per snap basis on the roster by a fair amount as well.

[kassaiscool]

All I have to show is [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtz8nOsLiKU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtz8nOsLiKU[/url]

[Ngata Chance]

[quote name='kassaiscool' timestamp='1363533889' post='1401847']
All I have to show is [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtz8nOsLiKU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtz8nOsLiKU[/url]
[/quote]

Chills, man. That was just great. Thanks.