Keeping the "dirt" in-house & Harbaugh vs. Billick

[beasy2487]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1363293495' post='1396530']
We tried to do that (Dilfer being the huge exception) after we won SB35. It was a disaster. They already made it clear they were not mortgaging the team piece by piece to do that in the season ending presser. In reality, we do this every year. It feels different because we won a SB, because Ray Lewis retired, because Ed Reed might be one of the FA to leave, but it really is exactly the same scenario we see every single year. That should give us some comfort because we put a competitive team on the field year after year.
[/quote]

The funniest thing about all of this is that Ozzie is doing exactly what he said he was going to do. The only surprise has been Ellerbe, but at 7 mil a year that just wasn't happening. Thank god Ozzie is a genius at what he does. Fun stat I heard today: 73% of people think they are above average intelligence. That sentiment is amazingly fitting for this board.

[wademan2636]

[quote name='beasy2487' timestamp='1363293506' post='1396531']
I love how, just because we won the Super Bowl, there's now all this revisionist history on what type of team we had. Resilient? Yes. Talented? Definitely. Dominant? In no way, shape, or form. Guys played out of their minds trying to send Lewis off the right way, and even in this dismantling of the team no one has anything bad to say about the team. Guys love it here, and will continue to love it. The childish pot-stirring going on around here is hilarious.

Ray Lewis was a [i]liability[/i] in the Super Bowl. Bernard Pollard was a [i]liability [/i]in the Super Bowl. Kruger and Boldin were both cap nightmares that we couldn't afford. Not even Ellerbe thought a team would be as dumb as the Phins and offer him 7 million a year and he chased the money. There's no possible way we would have paid him like that. We're not "rebuilding" after a Super Bowl. We're rebuilding a defense that was 17th in the league and needed to be rebuilt. And in Ed Reed's case, smart GMs w[i]o[/i]uld always rather get rid of a player too soon than too early. Maybe one day Ed can come back to coach, but we aren't going to pay him anyway near the 6 million a year he wants so if he's dead set on that he's going to have to finish his career elsewhere.

Can't wait for the draft so we at least have something productive for folks to whine about.
[/quote]

I agree with this idea. We are not overhauling just for the heck of it. Our defense is just not the strength of our team anymore. The old guys like Ray Lewis and Ed Reed just weren't getting it done like they used to. And Pollard was too aggressive and got too many penalties. Kruger and Ellerbe had money thrown at them as if they were workin the pole. Unfortunately, they're the tuesday afternoon cast and the money was being thrown by teams that overvalued them and had the money to burn. The ravens are too smart to get into bidding wars for a one dimensional player like kruger and an unproven supposed star like ellerbe. If history has explained anything to us, it should be that all these defensive players play better on the ravens than their new teams. it has happened time and time again and ozzie knows it by now.

It is time to start reworking the defense that just got old and washed up over time. And we have a lot of draft picks to do that. We're the best drafting team in the league, so we'll be ok.

[berad]

If you strapped Ray Lewis to a lie-detector and asked him which coach he preferred I bet the answer would start with an 'H' and end with an 'Arbs'...

[wademan2636]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1363294901' post='1396645']
If you strapped Ray Lewis to a lie-detector and asked him which coach he preferred I bet the answer would start with an 'H' and end with an 'Arbs'...
[/quote]

I certainly would pick Harbaugh over Billick. Billick was a jerk with a huge ego. If you've ever heard him on NFL network, his huge ego shows itself all the time. He thinks he is smarter than everyone else and that he knows best. Assuming that attitude was part of him when he was coaching the Ravens, I wouldn't be surprised to hear Ray praise Harbaugh. Bilick was an overrated coach working with the greatest defense in NFL history. He didn't even have to do much coaching because Marvin Lewis was such a great d-coordinator.

Harbaugh has developed more players than Billick did by far. I would choose Harbaugh over Billick.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

It is obvious to me that there must have been a cohesiveness in the locker room between the players. The team seemed much more spiritual than other Raven teams. Morale, good or bad, starts from the top of the organization. Motivation comes from within. All management can do is to provide an environment that is conducive to self-motivation. Comparing John Harbaugh to Brian Billick is not a fair comparison. The only similarity is that they both fired their offensive coordinator during the season in which they both led us to a SB victory. When Jim Fassel was fired, Coach Billick called the plays for the rest of the season. When Cam Cameron was fired, the playcalling was assumed by a head coach too --- Jim Caldwell. It is my understanding that Coach Caldwell had never called plays before at the NFL level. I'm not sure Coach John Harbaugh is capable of calling his own plays. His brother is. In any case, the team does not have to love their coach in order to be successful. Coach Tom Coughlin of the Giants is a case in point. Coach Harbaugh is our head coach for better or worse. This season all of the coaches will have to work harder to earn their pay. This year they will be challenged to lead as never before. Ray's departure is a double-edged sword. He was w/o a doubt the best motivator the Ravens have had on the team since he joined the team. At the same time, he was very intimidating to opponents, teammates and coaches alike. Now we will see what kind of a leader Coach Harbaugh, The Elder, truly is. I have been one of his greatest critics but I am willing to give him the opportunity to prove he can build a winner rather than to inherit a team, that could've, should've and would've won two more SBs absent some absent-minded playcalling by Cam Cameron and some poor execution on the field. For me, the jury is still out on his legacy as a head coach but I saw significant growth in his on-the-field coaching this year. He did a much better job of working the refs and standing up for his players. To any other Harbaugh doubters and any Flacco haters out there, just build a bridge and get over it like I have to. I will commend to you the movie "Hoosiers". The scene where Gene Hackman introduces the team to the student body is very poignant. In it, the new basketball coach interrupts the students chanting "we want Jimmy" and says "this is your team."
Graveyards are full of people who thought they were not expendable.

PS - Goodbye, Ed!

[Rinbee]

[quote name='EricH' timestamp='1363284105' post='1396205']
It doesn't bother me at all.
If Reed and Pollard are running because their egos are too large to buy into the TEAM concept so be it.
Without Ray being around who is going to keep these guys in check? Oh yeah, the team's head coach- Harbaugh.
[/quote]

You don't get harmony if everyone sings the same note. There is a difference between disagreeing with your boss or trying to protect your rights (no practicing in pads) and having a mutiny (trying to take over). IMHO Harbs has the ego problem and doesn't like it when anyone disagrees with him. Pollard was the union erp -- it was hist responsibility to speak up and Reed has as much right a Ray or anyone else as a long standing vet to express his thoughts. Remember, Harbs wanted to put an end to Rays dance when he first arrived. He does not seem to like anything that is not his idea. Unfortunately it will take several years for the ramifications of Harbs inept leadership to bring about HIS release.

[Yatagarasu]

Brian Billick was a smart coach who could draw up plays and know the techniques of he position. However, he didn't seem to be much of a disciplinary coach like Harbaugh. Harbaugh disciplines and motivates the team from being complacent. That's why the results are very different between Billick and Harbaugh. I hope we keep Harbaugh as long as possible because the thing that caught my attention was that he also can run the NFL conditioning test with the WRs. This he uses that to gain authority over slacking players. I remember in preseason when Ellerbe intercept the ball and toying around when he was going into the endzone against Rams, Harbaugh grabbed him by the face mask and ripped him up. Not a lot of coaches can do that. I remember why Nick Saban did not succeed in the NFL as well as in college. It is because he could control multimillionaire adults as well as young kids. Saban is a total control guy who will not take any resistance, thus he molded Alabama into a premier contender cause he has all the attention of his players, plus the talent.

[Yatagarasu]

I think Andy Reid isn't a disciplinary coach either, because he lost control of that talented Eagles locker, thus putting that locker in turmoil. Harbaugh also faced a mutiny this past year, yet stayed tough and found a way to ease the situation and win out a tough year.

[SecretAgentMan]

What the hell did I just read?

[Yatagarasu]

There's other no non-sense coaches like Bill Belichick, Tom Coughlin, Bill Parcell, and John Fox. All these coaches had successful careers and it maybe due to their disciplinary type of coaching.

[zwerrell]

[quote name='beasy2487' timestamp='1363293774' post='1396544']


Fun stat I heard today: 73% of people think they are above average intelligence. That sentiment is amazingly fitting for this board.
[/quote]

Statistically speaking, close to, if not 50% or possibly more do though...

[PurpleCityLights]

..........All i can say is cant wait until September.

[Clayton Bigsby]

Uhmmm they couldn't wait to leave? More like either 1.) Ravens had absolutely no intention of resigning them (Kruger, Williams) or 2.) The Ravens couldn't afford their price range (Boldin, Ellerbe, possibly Reed)

People are misunderstanding the situation way too much. The only questionable move I see so far is the Pollard cut. I'm really not sure why that went down. But, they basically got what they COULD for Boldin because whether we like it or not, if Boldin wasn't gone this year, he sure as hell would have been gone next year. If we waited till next year, we would have received nothing in return. Everything else is pretty much out of our hands.

[EricH]

[quote name='Rinbee' timestamp='1363305008' post='1397135']
You don't get harmony if everyone sings the same note. There is a difference between disagreeing with your boss or trying to protect your rights (no practicing in pads) and having a mutiny (trying to take over). IMHO Harbs has the ego problem and doesn't like it when anyone disagrees with him. Pollard was the union erp -- it was hist responsibility to speak up and Reed has as much right a Ray or anyone else as a long standing vet to express his thoughts. Remember, Harbs wanted to put an end to Rays dance when he first arrived. He does not seem to like anything that is not his idea. Unfortunately it will take several years for the ramifications of Harbs inept leadership to bring about HIS release.
[/quote]
My question is...who is the head coach?
I like the days when Mike Ditka grabbed a players facemask if they screwed up. And if the player screwed up again...he was benched. When did this whole 'players telling the coaches what to do' become so popular...oh yeah, Jerry Jones.

[Yatagarasu]

Ratliff should've been cut after telling back at his employer. Jerry Jones seem to lost control over his locker room. No talented player should be too big for the team.

[TonyTone1192]

[quote name='edreedfromtheu' timestamp='1363283878' post='1396199']
The Ravens have been praised for pretty much keeping any "issues" in-house and not airing stuff out to the media under Harbaugh.

They've painted a picture that everything is lovely because they have guys who "play like a Raven" and "The Raven Way."

Anyone else starting to get the same feeling that the lockerroom really wasn't all that cohesive, and there's a division just like Billick's last few years?

Maybe not necessarily offense vs. defense.... but players vs. coach?

It will be interesting to see what is said once everyone is settled on their new teams and rosters shake out. There might be an interesting back-story that could have been added to the recent relase of "Road to the Super Bowl 47: Baltimore Ravens" video.

For a team that just won the Super Bowl, it seems like some big-name guys couldn't wait to leave. I mean, some chased moeny, sure. Some had no choice because they were traded... like Boldin. But Ray Lewis made it clear he really has no intention of coming back. Reed really didn't seem like Baltimore is even an option. Pollard sounds like he knew it was coming and is anxious to get on a new team.

I've never agreed with Mike Preston, but a broken watch is right twice a day and I think he might have finally had one of those moments when he speculated what was going on with all the player movement out of Baltimore.
[/quote]

Lewis IMO wanted to retire as a champ. But I agree for the most part with you..

take a look @ this http://wnst.net/baltimore-ravens/pollard/

[elliot]

[quote name='TonyTone1192' timestamp='1363320333' post='1397769']
Lewis IMO wanted to retire as a champ. But I agree for the most part with you..

take a look @ this [url="http://wnst.net/baltimore-ravens/pollard/"]http://wnst.net/balt...ravens/pollard/[/url]
[/quote]Good article, explains a lot. Thanks for posting it.

[big hits and ball hawks]

[quote name='Rinbee' timestamp='1363305008' post='1397135']
You don't get harmony if everyone sings the same note. There is a difference between disagreeing with your boss or trying to protect your rights (no practicing in pads) and having a mutiny (trying to take over). IMHO Harbs has the ego problem and doesn't like it when anyone disagrees with him. Pollard was the union erp -- it was hist responsibility to speak up and Reed has as much right a Ray or anyone else as a long standing vet to express his thoughts. [b]Remember, Harbs wanted to put an end to Rays dance when he first arrived. He does not seem to like anything that is not his idea.[/b] Unfortunately it will take several years for the ramifications of Harbs inept leadership to bring about HIS release.
[/quote]

Harbs wanted Ray to stop doing his dance because he thought that it seemed selfish. Which totally makes sense because Harbaugh is all about TEAM, and he had thought the dance took away from that. Also remember, Harbaugh wasn't an in-house hire, he was an outsider before he became HC, so that's why he didn't know. Obviously, he found out that the dance had the opposite effect than what he had originally thought-from other players telling him not to make Ray stop and from the way the fans reacted to it.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1363284330' post='1396213']
Typical ERFTU garbage.
[/quote]

YES

[bmore ravens]

[quote name='zwerrell' timestamp='1363305842' post='1397184']
Statistically speaking, close to, if not 50% or possibly more do though...
[/quote]

Wrong. It is a bell curve. Thus, it is normally distributed. This means that 50% possess above-average and 50% below-average.

[H8R]

[quote name='bmore ravens' timestamp='1363350463' post='1398054']


Wrong. It is a bell curve. Thus, it is normally distributed. This means that 50% possess above-average and 50% below-average.
[/quote]

The Bell Curve? You do realize that's a theory ? and one that is controversial ... some would say racist...

[BloodRaven]

The theory is that starting this season from scratch with a dozen draft picks allows Harbaugh to mold the team how he sees fit, with his own guys who will buy into his way of things.

He needs to get rid of the doghouse thing though, anyone with eyes knew McKinnie was a better LT than Oher, or that Ellerbe was a better ILB than McClain.

[berad]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1363351599' post='1398075']
[b]The theory is that starting this season from scratch with a dozen draft picks allows Harbaugh to mold the team how he sees fit, with his own guys who will buy into his way of things.[/b]

He needs to get rid of the doghouse thing though, anyone with eyes knew McKinnie was a better LT than Oher, or that Ellerbe was a better ILB than McClain.
[/quote]

What has he been doing for the last 5? There are very few players left that he 'adopted' when he came in.

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1363351698' post='1398076']
What has he been doing for the last 5? There are very few players left that he 'adopted' when he came in.
[/quote]

It's not just Billick's guys, we have to replace outspoken acquisitions like Boldin, Pollard, Cary Williams, maybe McKinnie.

[berad]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1363353121' post='1398092']
It's not just Billick's guys, we have to replace outspoken acquisitions like Boldin, Pollard, Cary Williams, maybe McKinnie.
[/quote]

Harbaugh brought in all of those guys, well-aware of their personalities.

And Boldin was traded because of his cap number, which the Ravens are still suffering. That was not a huge surprise to see him go.

Cary Williams? Did you want the Ravens to re-sign him? He wasn't worth it...

Pollard is the only one this marginally applies to. He reportedly was a nuisance. But he also struggled this season so it could be production-based.

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1363356554' post='1398167']
Harbaugh brought in all of those guys, well-aware of their personalities.

And Boldin was traded because of his cap number, which the Ravens are still suffering. That was not a huge surprise to see him go.

Cary Williams? Did you want the Ravens to re-sign him? He wasn't worth it...

Pollard is the only one this marginally applies to. He reportedly was a nuisance. But he also struggled this season so it could be production-based.
[/quote]

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said, what point are you arguing?

[berad]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1363357596' post='1398219']
I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said, what point are you arguing?
[/quote]

I thought you were saying Harbaugh was trying to mold the team into what he wanted. I made the point that he had/has been doing that for 5 seasons.

You said we had to replace outspoken vets - maybe that's what I got hung up on. Were you saying Harbaugh wants no outspoken players or he does want them and sees the value of them in a team setting?

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1363364267' post='1398483']
I thought you were saying Harbaugh was trying to mold the team into what he wanted. I made the point that he had/has been doing that for 5 seasons.

You said we had to replace outspoken vets - maybe that's what I got hung up on. Were you saying Harbaugh wants no outspoken players or he does want them and sees the value of them in a team setting?
[/quote]

Harbaugh has been building things his way for 5 years but lets be honest, this was Ray's team until he retired. Now that the old guard is gone he has total control and I doubt we'll see another "mutiny" any time soon.

[ravensconvert]

HARBS is a fantastic coach. I'm actually pretty impressed in his leadership abilities. He's not a brilliant football mind like Bellicheck. He's just a solid CEO type who manages people. That's what a head coach needs to be. Make the football genuises coordinators. We've seen plenty of football guys with poor CEO skills fail (Rex Ryan, even John Harbaugh to some extent).

You know I listen to this football podcast and they have sounders for all of the head coaches press conferences. All the dumb stuff they said. They have zero sounders for John Harbaugh. The guy isn't flashy, but he's solid.

[DMH_in_WA]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1363356554' post='1398167']
Pollard is the only one this marginally applies to. He reportedly was a nuisance. But he also struggled this season so it could be production-based.
[/quote]

Agree with what you said. And on Pollard, the stat on him that caught my attention the most and had me thinking that there is SOMETHING that needed to be done was that in 2012, when the receiver he was defending was targeted, that receiver caught the ball 75% of the time. That is a trouble pass coverage stat. Combine that with his penchant for big penalties and it's doubly troubling.