In Ozzie We Trust (The Ravens Free Agency Thread)

[5aiah]

Nope. I don't fail to understand anything. I just have better perspective than you. We have never had great weapons for Joe. That is my point. Last year is probably the best receiving corps we have ever had, but prior to that there have been serious struggles. You can misremember how bad our WR situation has been in the past all you want, but it doesnt change the fact that Clayton was bad. Extremely inconsistent. He was no more talented than Deonte is. I would much rather have Torrey as the #1 than 35 yr old Mason.You and others see inexperience and assume that means bad. In actuality we have several players that can be quality NFL receivers, but they just haven't had the opportunity yet. These guys aren't rookies. They have been in the system for 2, 3, and 4 years. Of course there can be hiccups, but the potential is there for a lot of production. The one constant is Joe Flacco and as long as he is behind center he will find players to throw the ball to.

Whoa. Better perspective? You couldn't even understand the point i was making so I highly doubt that. Like I said, sure this year could be the best, it is like that for us every year. But you are definitely ignoring the fact that the young guys still haven't beaten out Jacoby(who is not a suitable WR2) for the job and are still inconsistent in the hands department. It's not that we see inexperience and assume that means bad, its just that you are seeing they haven't gotten a shot and assume they are good just not able to get opportunities behind last years starters. The only thing different is we have more speed guys than usual and will be more explosive and more flashy than before. That doesn't mean anything if we can't convert on third down or make it happen in the redzone. I think these guys could put up some great numbers,probably better than other groups have in regular season, doesn't make them better. Also stop with this "several quality NFL receivers" mess. That isn't saying much of anything if you don't describe what it means because for all I know you consider quality to be just able to make the team. Clayton was a different receiver than DT is anyway, a better comparison would be Clayton vs Doss. Lastly you still missed the biggest point of my post and refuted none of the lesser points. "We have never had great weapons for Joe", well duh, if you are looking for world class receivers we still don't. But again dismissing the previous guys just to make a point(not even a good one) is foolish.

[beasy2487]

:popcorn drama:

 

I think it's a fallacy that everyone who is optimistic is a homer, and that everyone who is pessimistic is somehow objective. Everyone has a right to their opinion because none of us know anything, and condescending people while simultaneously flaunting things like All-22 and PFF as law is ridiculous.

 

Anyway, I would site the Saints as a reason I'm very optimistic about or WR corps. With the exception of Graham and Colston (maybe), that group is a bunch of nobody's if not for the scheme and the QB. See: Robert Meachem. If Joe and Caldwell are who we think they are, I see the same thing happening across the board for our corps.

[rmw10]

I'm confused.  Why are we talking about Heap, Mason, and Clayton in the free agency thread?  I mean, I know they're all available ;)

[5aiah]

You and others see inexperience and assume that means bad. In actuality we have several players that can be quality NFL receivers, but they just haven't had the opportunity yet. These guys aren't rookies. They have been in the system for 2, 3, and 4 years. 

Tandon Doss has had 183 offensive snaps(just this season) Brian Quick has had 182 period. Brian Quick is a guy I would say is inexperienced more so than Doss but has a better chance of being what I would call a quality NFL receiver. Inexperience doesn't mean bad for me, I watch a wide variety of teams and see how their young guys stack up to ours. I already mentioned before how DT can be a breakout star if he stays healthy and Mellette when he gets stronger, so unless you are talking about LaQuan/Streeter stepping up, who are these guys? 

[gabefergy]

Whoa. Better perspective? You couldn't even understand the point i was making so I highly doubt that. Like I said, sure this year could be the best, it is like that for us every year. But you are definitely ignoring the fact that the young guys still haven't beaten out Jacoby(who is not a suitable WR2) for the job and are still inconsistent in the hands department. It's not that we see inexperience and assume that means bad, its just that you are seeing they haven't gotten a shot and assume they are good just not able to get opportunities behind last years starters. The only thing different is we have more speed guys than usual and will be more explosive and more flashy than before. That doesn't mean anything if we can't convert on third down or make it happen in the redzone. I think these guys could put up some great numbers,probably better than other groups have in regular season, doesn't make them better. Also stop with this "several quality NFL receivers" mess. That isn't saying much of anything if you don't describe what it means because for all I know you consider quality to be just able to make the team. Clayton was a different receiver than DT is anyway, a better comparison would be Clayton vs Doss. Lastly you still missed the biggest point of my post and refuted none of the lesser points. "We have never had great weapons for Joe", well duh, if you are looking for world class receivers we still don't. But again dismissing the previous guys just to make a point(not even a good one) is foolish.

Yes, better perspective. You conveniently ignore the fact that the offense is in a completely different place than it was five or even two years ago. Joe Flacco is an extremely talented QB in his prime who is finally put in a system that is properly using the talent around him. We don't know who has beaten out who in terms of a depth  chart at this point, and even then a depth chart really means nothing. In all likelihood there are a lot of available snaps that will be spread between 3-4 different WRs opposite of Smith in some manner or another.

 

This goes back to an earlier debate about what the offense will look like this year, and frankly we dont know at this point. Will it be run heavy while taking shots downfield? Will it be more spread out with a pass-first approach? We could see a lot of 3-4 WR sets or we could be 21 personnel heavy.

 

You bring up a lot of questions and I dont have the answers. How we look in the RZ or on 3rd down is completely up in the air. What I can tell from your posts is you are expecting failure which I find silly. I'm not ignoring the possibilites that there may be struggles with the offense early on, but I have a lot more faith than you do in the QB and the coaching staff. They know what they are doing. Flacco has consistently praised the ability of these receivers. He could just as easily be clamoring for the FO to get him a veteran WR, but that is not the case. 

 

By quality NFL receivers, I mean receivers that are capable of making plays in the NFL, i.e. catching the ball for first downs, TDs, ability get open, and make plays after the catch. I can define the role of the WR for you in more detail if need be. 

 

Finally, I'm not just dismissing previous players, but you are out of your mind if you think Clayton was any more talented than the players we have at WR right now. Are you also going to argue that Mason was a better #1 WR than Torrey, because I think that is laughable. I'm not sure why you think the Deonte Thompson - Clayton comparison is that far off either. Speed was Clayton's greatest asset, although he failed miserably at knowing how to use it. He struggled at gaining separation for whatever reason, I guess he just was a poor route runner for the most part. Deonte is faster than Clayton IMO, and also has better ability to get open from the limited snaps I have seen. I dont think Clayton is anything like Doss at all. Clayton was a terrible slot reciever which is where Tandon looks most comfortable. 

[berad]

Mod Note: please debate the topic, don't snipe at each other.

[gabefergy]

Tandon Doss has had 183 offensive snaps(just this season) Brian Quick has had 182 period. Brian Quick is a guy I would say is inexperienced more so than Doss but has a better chance of being what I would call a quality NFL receiver. Inexperience doesn't mean bad for me, I watch a wide variety of teams and see how their young guys stack up to ours. I already mentioned before how DT can be a breakout star if he stays healthy and Mellette when he gets stronger, so unless you are talking about LaQuan/Streeter stepping up, who are these guys? 

What's your point here? I think Tavon Austin will be a better WR than Tandon Doss  even though he has zero NFL snaps! 

[5aiah]

What I can tell from your posts is you are expecting failure which I find silly.

Not at all. You just don't read to well(not a surprise). Read my posts again. Anyway we agree that there is no need for a free agent right now so we are on same page.

[gabefergy]

Not at all. You just don't read to well(not a surprise). Read my posts again. Anyway we agree that there is no need for a free agent right now so we are on same page.

No its pretty clear. You expect players to do poorly.

[5aiah]

No its pretty clear. You expect players to do poorly.

DT having a breakout season, is doing poorly. Ok bro.Lmao. Like I said we agree on the main topic of free agency(in that we don't need a WR) and the Mod made it clear to stop the petty bickering. So lets drop it. 

[omar586]

lets c what marlon brown can do for US, lol, heard a lot good things about him i hope he makes it, some have that "it" factor some dont aka streeter.

[The Raven]

If it's not too late, I would like to add my two cents. Clayton was trash and so was every other wide receiver Joe's had except Boldin, Mason, and Torrey.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Tandon Doss has had 183 offensive snaps(just this season) Brian Quick has had 182 period. Brian Quick is a guy I would say is inexperienced more so than Doss but has a better chance of being what I would call a quality NFL receiver. Inexperience doesn't mean bad for me, I watch a wide variety of teams and see how their young guys stack up to ours. I already mentioned before how DT can be a breakout star if he stays healthy and Mellette when he gets stronger, so unless you are talking about LaQuan/Streeter stepping up, who are these guys?

So you call thinking Doss and Deonte can step up to become legit threats this year homerism, and then 2 posts later say Mellette will step up to be a good receiver?????

And that's based on what? 2nd team snaps in training camp?

Ozzie is known as the best talent evaluator in the league, so if he doesn't see a need to add a WR at this point, there's no reason for me - a fan - to question it. If he has faith so do I.

Opposing that idea is to assume your outside look - ie reading articles about responses coaches, players, and staff give to media - makes you more knowledgable than the guy who is actually there every day and is regarded as the best at what he does.

Having faith in him doesn't make one a homer... It's looking at his track record and assuming if there was a need for change he'd make it.

That's not homerism, that's logic.

And smug arrogance is annoying - especially on a ravens thread. You don't know better than Oz.

[5aiah]

So you call thinking Doss and Deonte can step up to become legit threats this year homerism, and then 2 posts later say Mellette will step up to be a good receiver?????

And that's based on what? 2nd team snaps in training camp?

Ozzie is known as the best talent evaluator in the league, so if he doesn't see a need to add a WR at this point, there's no reason for me - a fan - to question it. If he has faith so do I.

Opposing that idea is to assume your outside look - ie reading articles about responses coaches, players, and staff give to media - makes you more knowledgable than the guy who is actually there every day and is regarded as the best at what he does.

Having faith in him doesn't make one a homer... It's looking at his track record and assuming if there was a need for change he'd make it.

That's not homerism, that's logic.

And smug arrogance is annoying - especially on a ravens thread. You don't know better than Oz.

I said DT  was going to have a breakout season. Also said Doss will do fine in a certain role provided he stay healthy. Also said Mellette COULD step up later in the year IF he becomes stronger and tougher. I also said we don't need a WR from free agency. Maybe you quoted the wrong guy. I actually agree with ALL of Oz's decisions so far unlike many who didn't like the Boldin and Leach moves. So where are you getting this from bro? Did you even read my posts?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Are you saying this year they could be the best WR corps? That is incredibly naive, especially when all of these guys are still dropping passes and they aren't even taking big hits. Also what you fail to understand is the lack of proven durability aside from Torrey and Jacoby. You have to see how these guys can play through the nagging injuries or stay completely healthy. So not only are their hands,route running, and toughness unproven, but also their durability, something you are taking for granted right now. By the way Mason was terrific for us and Clayton wasn't as bad as you make him out to be. We don't even have a true starting WR opposite Torrey and no possession TE to help these guys out and give them time to develop further in the season without being relied on. On paper and on the field this WR corps doesn't yet match up to any of the previous ones because there are no starters aside from Torrey. All WR corps have the chance to be the best the Ravens ever had when they have't stepped on the field yet. That being said i hope we don't grab one still. Let these guys fight it out all season. They won't be ready until late.

Right here. It's naive to think these guys can be better than Clayton and Mason. Lol, Clayton was awful aside from 1 decent season which only seems decent in comparison to how bad he was otherwise.

You mention dropped passes and not knowing durability as reasons not to expect them to be our best WR group ever?? What??

U have every right to disagree with the statement -- but using a few dropped passes in TC and not knowing if they won't get injured as the reason to disagree??

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I'm all for optimism but jeez, no matter who gets traded or injured this year's receiving group will be magical. The homerism is rampant. Lol. Then they all find ways to put down previous Ravens to make their points too. What do we know though, Jacoby will catch 100 passes and push Megatron for best WR.

It's homerism to think that one of Doss, DT or Jacoby can match Clayton??

Plus the sarcasm is ridiculous. You sound silly arguing a person thinking that Jacoby, Doss, or DT can be better than Clayton is similar to expecting them to be Calvin Johnson.

You in turn are comparing Clayton to megaton.

But you're right ... Us homers should stop expecting any receiver on our roster to ever top 800 yards and 4-6TDs. Those expectations are just too lofty.

[5aiah]

Right here. It's naive to think these guys can be better than Clayton and Mason. Lol, Clayton was awful aside from 1 decent season which only seems decent in comparison to how bad he was otherwise.
 

You mention dropped passes and not knowing durability as reasons not to expect them to be our best WR group ever?? What??

U have every right to disagree with the statement -- but using a few dropped passes in TC and not knowing if they won't get injured as the reason to disagree??

Better than Torrey,Boldin,and Jacoby. Yeah kinda Naive. Who is even talking about Clayton anymore? Also, inconsistent hands(period) and suspect durability isn't a good reason to be wary of them becoming the best WR corps Flacco has ever had? 

 

It's homerism to think that one of Doss, DT or Jacoby can match Clayton??

Plus the sarcasm is ridiculous. You sound silly arguing a person thinking that Jacoby, Doss, or DT can be better than Clayton is similar to expecting them to be Calvin Johnson.

You in turn are comparing Clayton to megaton.

But you're right ... Us homers should stop expecting any receiver on our roster to ever top 800 yards and 4-6TDs. Those expectations are just too lofty.

Actually wasn't referring to Clayton specifically but those talking about Mason and Boldin as well. All the guys who have left that were Ravens receivers. You still on Clayton bro? Also guess you still didn't read the part about "DT having a breakout season"? Yeah I have no expectations for our receivers bro, none at all.

[mg90]

Any idea what Pitta's situation will mean for resigning him? Do we sign him cheaper than expected or does he still have a chance to make a little money in free agency?

[izvoodoo]

Any idea what Pitta's situation will mean for resigning him? Do we sign him cheaper than expected or does he still have a chance to make a little money in free agency?

Pitta will most likely sign a one year deal and seek a larger deal the following year.  Who he signs that with is anyone's guess.

[beanfigger]

Pitta will most likely sign a one year deal and seek a larger deal the following year.  Who he signs that with is anyone's guess.

 

I still think there is close to a 0% chance Pitta signs a deal for only one year.

[izvoodoo]

I still think there is close to a 0% chance Pitta signs a deal for only one year.

He;s in a really tough spot.  I feel awful for the guy.

[mg90]

He;s in a really tough spot. I feel awful for the guy.

True, I wanted to see him fight for that pay day this year and ultimately get it...It sucks that one almost has to go into a season with a mentality of 'so who's going down this year?'

[display name]

True, I wanted to see him fight for that pay day this year and ultimately get it...It sucks that one almost has to go into a season with a mentality of 'so who's going down this year?'

I honestly wonder if he will return to the team. All depends on the recovery and how Dickson in company do this year.

[izvoodoo]

Right here. It's naive to think these guys can be better than Clayton and Mason. Lol, Clayton was awful aside from 1 decent season which only seems decent in comparison to how bad he was otherwise.

You mention dropped passes and not knowing durability as reasons not to expect them to be our best WR group ever?? What??

U have every right to disagree with the statement -- but using a few dropped passes in TC and not knowing if they won't get injured as the reason to disagree??

I really think he just doesn't want Brandon Lloyd to be a bad influence on our young receivers.

[T3hRaven]

Pitta will most likely sign a one year deal and seek a larger deal the following year.  Who he signs that with is anyone's guess.

 

Agreed.  As old as he is coming off that injury,  he's not going to get big money, especially not a multi-year deal.

[izvoodoo]

Agreed.  As old as he is coming off that injury,  he's not going to get big money, especially not a multi-year deal.

I don't want people to take this the wrong way, and make it a religious thing...

 

But I think it prudent if schools like BYU would encourage mormons to do their mission after their professional career.

 

Again, not trying to make this a controversy, and I mean that with the upmost respect.  Just my 2 cents.

[T3hRaven]

I don't want people to take this the wrong way, and make it a religious thing...

 

But I think it prudent if schools like BYU would encourage mormons to do their mission after their professional career.

 

Again, not trying to make this a controversy, and I mean that with the upmost respect.  Just my 2 cents.

 

Think of all the good they could do with the NFL career money too, if that's ultimately their goal.  Never understood that stuff, but that's probably as far as we can go without breaking the rules.

[izvoodoo]

Think of all the good they could do with the NFL career money too, if that's ultimately their goal.  Never understood that stuff, but that's probably as far as we can go without breaking the rules.

Did Heap go on a missions trip?  I know Kruger did.

[beanfigger]

Agreed.  As old as he is coming off that injury,  he's not going to get big money, especially not a multi-year deal.

 

I'm shocked that so many people think that Pitta will sign a one year deal after what happened this year.  He won't get a giant paycheck, but I have to believe he wants a little more long term security after this offseason.  Maybe everyone knows something I don't, like Pitta is the world's biggest gambler or something?  Some team will offer him more than one year (we probably will, too), and I wholeheartedly believe that's what he'll sign, unless he is uncharacteristically loyal to us and signs a one year deal just to stay in Baltimore.  I think that's too rare to depend on, nowadays.

[rmw10]

I'm shocked that so many people think that Pitta will sign a one year deal after what happened this year.  He won't get a giant paycheck, but I have to believe he wants a little more long term security after this offseason.  Maybe everyone knows something I don't, like Pitta is the world's biggest gambler or something?  Some team will offer him more than one year (we probably will, too), and I wholeheartedly believe that's what he'll sign, unless he is uncharacteristically loyal to us and signs a one year deal just to stay in Baltimore.  I think that's too rare to depend on, nowadays.

 

I'm not sure anyone offers anything more than a year right now.  He's got a pretty serious injury that has some implications on his career.  While it may not end his career, it can certainly hurt his route running, speed, confidence, etc.  As we go along and if his recovery is going well, a multi-year deal back on the table.  Based on what we know now, however, it would be a very bad move to give him more than a year.

 

It's not Pitta gambling, it would be a team at this point.  Even if he does have multi-year offers, he'd probably be better off signing a one year deal to regain value.  Whatever multi-year offer he may get would most likely be pretty small.