ProFootballFocus: Comparing performance to cap hit

[Bltravens]

[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1362685752' post='1380733']
He's not the guy of 3 years ago, that's for sure.
[/quote]
Still think Ngata should be the future NT for this defense. With Art playing extremely well down the stretch finding a 290 pound interior rush DE is the way I would take the front 3 at least.

[Ravenseconbeast]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1362696543' post='1380847']
Good thing Ozzie isn't going to reconstruct any contracts because obviously Ngata and Suggs haven't been living up to it.

Suggs' contract is near the end and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets released if he has another down season this upcoming year.

Ngata's contract is still in the middle, but he's been breaking down a lot lately probably due to all the double team he has to face. I say we need to invest in another quality DT to reduce the wear and tear of Ngata. Cody did not help much,

Also all the money invested in Webb has been a head case since he tore out both knees. If Webb didn't sign that contract last year, the team would have all the leverage to reduce Webb's contract. Our team seems to be gambling a lot and losing a lot on these contracts with Flacco and Webb.
[/quote]

Losing Suggs going to suck. But I do agree w/ you, I don't see Suggs getting any better w/ his age. Now we might also lose Kruger. There goes the pass rush section of our defense.

We direly need some pass rushers @ this draft and a really productive one too...FO needs to hit some bulls-eyes this year.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1362696543' post='1380847']
Good thing Ozzie isn't going to reconstruct any contracts because obviously Ngata and Suggs haven't been living up to it.

Suggs' contract is near the end and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets released if he has another down season this upcoming year.

Ngata's contract is still in the middle, but he's been breaking down a lot lately probably due to all the double team he has to face. I say we need to invest in another quality DT to reduce the wear and tear of Ngata. Cody did not help much,

Also all the money invested in Webb has been a head case since he tore out both knees. If Webb didn't sign that contract last year, the team would have all the leverage to reduce Webb's contract. Our team seems to be gambling a lot and losing a lot on these contracts with Flacco and Webb.
[/quote]
Firstly with regards to Suggs, wow, dude won DPOY in 2011 and then tore his achilles and blew out his bicep and he's "not living up to his contract"? He was literally the best defensive player in the entire NFL last year. He had 1 bad year in 2009 because he played overweight by design with the scheme change from Mattison, 2010 he had 11.5 sacks and 2011 was DPOY, 2012 he had 2 major injuries that he played through but it is no secret at all that when Suggs came back the defense improved in the front 7. Suggs earned his contract the last 3 years without question in my eyes, 138 tackles, 25 sacks, 9 FF and 2 INTs as a 34 OLB in just 2 years alone, and then playing with 1 leg and 1 arm in 2012 takes more balls than I can imagine.

Second, Webb's contract wasn't a gamble. He came off tearing the ACL the first time to turn into a top 5 or 6 CB in the league, his rookie deal expired and we signed him long term. How is that a gamble? If we had signed him after he tore 2 ACLs then that's a gamble. Signing him after 1 ACL tear and him turning into a top flight CB is not a gamble.

Third, by all reports we offered Flacco a contract that would have paid him top 5 money at the QB position. He took the gamble, not the Baltimore FO. Flacco just won that gamble, and Im damn glad he did. You don't think the Jaguars would pay 120$ mil to a QB who won them a SB going on a historic run?

[Ravenseconbeast]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1362697357' post='1380857']
Firstly with regards to Suggs, wow, dude won DPOY in 2011 and then tore his achilles and blew out his bicep and he's "not living up to his contract"? He was literally the best defensive player in the entire NFL last year. He had 1 bad year in 2009 because he played overweight by design with the scheme change from Mattison, 2010 he had 11.5 sacks and 2011 was DPOY, 2012 he had 2 major injuries that he played through but it is no secret at all that when Suggs came back the defense improved in the front 7. Suggs earned his contract the last 3 years without question in my eyes, 138 tackles, 25 sacks, 9 FF and 2 INTs as a 34 OLB in just 2 years alone, and then playing with 1 leg and 1 arm in 2012 takes more balls than I can imagine.

Second, Webb's contract wasn't a gamble. He came off tearing the ACL the first time to turn into a top 5 or 6 CB in the league, his rookie deal expired and we signed him long term. How is that a gamble? If we had signed him after he tore 2 ACLs then that's a gamble. Signing him after 1 ACL tear and him turning into a top flight CB is not a gamble.

Third, by all reports we offered Flacco a contract that would have paid him top 5 money at the QB position. He took the gamble, not the Baltimore FO. Flacco just won that gamble, and Im damn glad he did. You don't think the Jaguars would pay 120$ mil to a QB who won them a SB going on a historic run?
[/quote]

Tearing a ACL can do alot of dmg. Webb like you said has 2 ACL's...he might not be the same rising star we were hoping for.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1362697082' post='1380854']


Losing Suggs going to suck. But I do agree w/ you, I don't see Suggs getting any better w/ his age. Now we might also lose Kruger. There goes the pass rush section of our defense.

We direly need some pass rushers @ this draft and a really productive one too...FO needs to hit some bulls-eyes this year.
[/quote]whats changed your tune? I said this last week when flacco was done and you pretty much called me an idiot!

[Ravenseconbeast]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1362697746' post='1380861']
whats changed your tune? I said this last week when flacco was done and you pretty much called me an idiot!
[/quote]

I don't get it. What?

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1362697850' post='1380862']


I don't get it. What?
[/quote]when talking about flacco deals you were pretty pissed we paid him so much and I was saying that n a few years with Suggs and ngatas injuries etc that its very likely our two highest cap hits won't be on the books when flaccos cap hit jumps, or they will at. Least be considerably cheaper, so our net position won't be any worse off.

And you just totally tore into that sentiment, now your pretty much agreeing with it, that's Suggs and ngata may not be back.

[Ravenseconbeast]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1362698241' post='1380866']
when talking about flacco deals you were pretty pissed we paid him so much and I was saying that n a few years with Suggs and ngatas injuries etc that its very likely our two highest cap hits won't be on the books when flaccos cap hit jumps, or they will at. Least be considerably cheaper, so our net position won't be any worse off.

And you just totally tore into that sentiment, now your pretty much agreeing with it, that's Suggs and ngata may not be back.
[/quote]

Well people's perspective change I suppose. After thinking about it today, I don't think Suggs will get better w/ any age. We need a playmaker @ pass rusher on draft.

But don't mix that idea into thinking I wan't either of them cut. That is ridiculous.

[BloodRaven]

I will be very surprised if Suggs even gets back to 90% of what he was, even before his biceps tear he wasn't regaining any of his burst.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1362698580' post='1380868']


Well people's perspective change I suppose. After thinking about it today, I don't think Suggs will get better w/ any age. We need a playmaker @ pass rusher on draft.

But don't mix that idea into thinking I wan't either of them cut. That is ridiculous.
[/quote]i don't think anyone wants them cut, that's a horrid more for a variety of reasons, but they will not command to dollar when there deals run out, and if they want that Ozzie will let them hit free agency like he did with ray Lewis.

For what It's worth I think ngata will retire when his is up. I duo what Suggs we will see next year, will it be the good one, or slow with no burst and acceleration because of the Achilles. Hoping for the former obviously but I'd not be surprised if Suggs gets little or no pass rush next year and that's quite concerning.

[H8R]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1362697357' post='1380857']

Firstly with regards to Suggs, wow, dude won DPOY in 2011 and then tore his achilles and blew out his bicep and he's "not living up to his contract"? He was literally the best defensive player in the entire NFL last year. He had 1 bad year in 2009 because he played overweight by design with the scheme change from Mattison, 2010 he had 11.5 sacks and 2011 was DPOY, 2012 he had 2 major injuries that he played through but it is no secret at all that when Suggs came back the defense improved in the front 7. Suggs earned his contract the last 3 years without question in my eyes, 138 tackles, 25 sacks, 9 FF and 2 INTs as a 34 OLB in just 2 years alone, and then playing with 1 leg and 1 arm in 2012 takes more balls than I can imagine.

Second, Webb's contract wasn't a gamble. He came off tearing the ACL the first time to turn into a top 5 or 6 CB in the league, his rookie deal expired and we signed him long term. How is that a gamble? If we had signed him after he tore 2 ACLs then that's a gamble. Signing him after 1 ACL tear and him turning into a top flight CB is not a gamble.

Third, by all reports we offered Flacco a contract that would have paid him top 5 money at the QB position. He took the gamble, not the Baltimore FO. Flacco just won that gamble, and Im damn glad he did. You don't think the Jaguars would pay 120$ mil to a QB who won them a SB going on a historic run?
[/quote]

Woah woah WOAH! Suggs wasn't heavy by design.. He himself said he was eating too much fried chicken and fast food. He apologized for that season. He promised it wouldn't happen again. NEVER was it a designed for him to be about 290lbs, which is what he was.

http://cheeseheadtv.com/nfl/ravens-lb-terrell-suggs-slammed-over-ota-absence

[H8R]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1362695209' post='1380825']
first I've heard of any of this...
[/quote]

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-08-04/sports/bal-ravens-dt-haloti-ngata-is-eager-to-return-to-the-practice-field-20120804_1_practice-field-open-practice-mandatory-minicamp

Read this.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1362705422' post='1381050']
Woah woah WOAH! Suggs wasn't heavy by design.. He himself said he was eating too much fried chicken and fast food. He apologized for that season. He promised it wouldn't happen again. NEVER was it a designed for him to be about 290lbs, which is what he was.

[url="http://cheeseheadtv.com/nfl/ravens-lb-terrell-suggs-slammed-over-ota-absence"]http://cheeseheadtv....ver-ota-absence[/url]
[/quote]
I remember reading reports in 2009 saying he gained the weight to help against the run in the new alignments and that he was primarily going to play with his hand in the dirt. Now he did also say it was from fried chicken, so the weight gain wasn't good weight. He could have bulked to 280 and gotten bigger and stronger, instead he got bigger and fatter lol.

[Cville-Raven]

Surprised Rice isn't on the over valued list TBH.

[The Raven]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1362706805' post='1381080']
I remember reading reports in 2009 saying he gained the weight to help against the run in the new alignments and that he was primarily going to play with his hand in the dirt. Now he did also say it was from fried chicken, so the weight gain wasn't good weight. He could have bulked to 280 and gotten bigger and stronger, instead he got bigger and fatter lol.
[/quote]

[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1362705422' post='1381050']
Woah woah WOAH! Suggs wasn't heavy by design.. He himself said he was eating too much fried chicken and fast food. He apologized for that season. He promised it wouldn't happen again. NEVER was it a designed for him to be about 290lbs, which is what he was.

[url="http://cheeseheadtv.com/nfl/ravens-lb-terrell-suggs-slammed-over-ota-absence"]http://cheeseheadtv....ver-ota-absence[/url]
[/quote]

Yeah. I remember reading something saying Mattison wanted Suggs heavier. He just put on bad weight and didn't work out enough. Weight gain was the plan, but he didn't execute it well at all.

[H8R]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1362709931' post='1381128']




Yeah. I remember reading something saying Mattison wanted Suggs heavier. He just put on bad weight and didn't work out enough. Weight gain was the plan, but he didn't execute it well at all.
[/quote]

I remember Kruger was asked to gain weight. I never heard about Suggs being asked to gain weight...

[H8R]

[quote name='Cville-Raven' timestamp='1362709635' post='1381123']
Surprised Rice isn't on the over valued list TBH.
[/quote]

How about if you did it for the playoffs... where Rice has been pretty bad more often then not.

[Tiz]

Article seemed to be honest.
Knocked Suggs down for missing alot of snaps as well as for being unable to generate alot of pass rush.
Credited him for playing through injuries but end result was he wasn't able to perform like a beast.

Anquan was overvalued but not by much and one has to think of at as being a result of cam Cameron's inability to get flacco in a good rhythm.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1362705537' post='1381055']


http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-08-04/sports/bal-ravens-dt-haloti-ngata-is-eager-to-return-to-the-practice-field-20120804_1_practice-field-open-practice-mandatory-minicamp

Read this.
[/quote]how does a pulled hammy indicate he was out of shape? He even said they plan on keeping the weight he is because the lighter weight caused him to ware down. In other words the heavier weight, which you've said all season shows he was out of shape, was by design.

[H8R]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1362749751' post='1381356']
how does a pulled hammy indicate he was out of shape? He even said they plan on keeping the weight he is because the lighter weight caused him to ware down. In other words the heavier weight, which you've said all season shows he was out of shape, was by design.
[/quote]

We can go around in circels all day about this.. I dont care. More accounts then mine said he came in out of shape and stiff. As to keeping his weight up...how has that worked? He had a medicore season... Generally... and you can research this if you like... Guys that are out of shape and havent trained hard will pull a hammy pretty quickly its happened time and time again. Look at the guys who hold out... Always seem to end up with a hamstring issue.. This "by design" thing you guys keep coming with is used as a " saving face" device... Big picture... He was more healthy at a lighter weight..was he not? IIRC, Ngata also skipped out on OTA/mini-camps?

[H8R]

[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1362758914' post='1381404']
We can go around in circels all day about this.. I dont care. More accounts then mine said he came in out of shape and stiff. As to keeping his weight up...how has that worked? He had a medicore season... Generally... and you can research this if you like... Guys that are out of shape and havent trained hard will pull a hammy pretty quickly its happened time and time again. Look at the guys who hold out... Always seem to end up with a hamstring issue.. This "by design" thing you guys keep coming with is used as a " saving face" device... Big picture... He was more healthy at a lighter weight..was he not? Also, IIRC Ngata wasnt involved in OTA/Mini Camps.
[/quote]

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1362758914' post='1381404']


We can go around in circels all day about this.. I dont care. More accounts then mine said he came in out of shape and stiff. As to keeping his weight up...how has that worked? He had a medicore season... Generally... and you can research this if you like... Guys that are out of shape and havent trained hard will pull a hammy pretty quickly its happened time and time again. Look at the guys who hold out... Always seem to end up with a hamstring issue.. This "by design" thing you guys keep coming with is used as a " saving face" device... Big picture... He was more healthy at a lighter weight..was he not? IIRC, Ngata also skipped out on OTA/mini-camps?
[/quote]completely disagree with that last part. He was healthy for about four games last year at the heavy weight and about four games the year before. He wore down at the light weight so they trade a heavy weight and still got injured.

His body is just breaking down. We can't sugar coat that. He plays to many snaps and breaks down. His play when fit is top of the league but he can't stay fit a full season anymore it seems.

The next logical move is to cut his snaps so he can play at a top level all season albeit seeing less snaps per game.

I'll say it again. Ngata playing like he did against the jets two seasons ago every game for 30 to 40 snaps a game is better than him playing like how he did this past season 60 snaps a game. The contract is a past event it can't be changed so we have to work with what we have.

We have it seems an elite dline player who's body is slowly breaking down mid way through the year, solution reduce the snaps so it doesn't break down.

[GTRavens]

Why is it that whenever we hear about a Ravens player experiencing a weight change, things go horribly wrong?