Matt Ryan is still going to be the better QB

[jaege]

[quote name='beasy2487' timestamp='1360866101' post='1357713']
Well, you're saying Joe is great simply because of his playoff wins. Let me caveat this next statement by saying that I too think Joe is the better QB, but if Ryan gets a single defensive stop, a PI call on Navarro Bowman, or any help whatsoever from his special teams (say: a 108-yd kick return, perhaps?) he's in the SB as well. Joe has been the beneficiary (in the past) of a much better overall team than Ryan had earlier in his career. Joe beat New England in a playoff game where he threw for 34 yards for god's sake (Not his fault, he didn't have to throw for us to win that game, but Ryan has never been a situation where he didn't have to win the game for his team). I don't understand why you're belittling Ryan's accomplishments when (statistically) his first 5 years have been better almost identical to Peyton's in the regular season AND post season in that span.

Feels weird defending Ryan right now but his only shortcomings are his playoff choke jobs which was EXACTLY the same knock on Peyton before Rex Grossman handed him the Super Bowl. To this point, Ryan's career has been eerily similar to Peyton's... why the bias against him lol? Just look at the numbers.
[/quote]


Okay, first, and dont take this the wrong way but, your caveat made me laugh. You are going with "if"? Lets stick with reality, and what did actually happen, not what might have happened based upon conjecture. I could just as easily and correctly argue that your "if" would lead to Ryan being killed by a freak bolt of lightning. "If" is fantasy. A story. A fairytale. Its not real. It didn't happen that way. Ryan has never made it to the SB because the Falcons teams he has led have not been good enough to overcome the other teams. That is it. No ifs ands or buts.

So Joe has had the benefit of a better team. So? That does not prove that Ryan is good. I am not comparing Flacco and Ryan. I am judging Ryan on his own merits and lack there of. Ryan has had one of the best WR squads in the league. He has had a pretty solid O-line. He has benefited from playing in one of the weakest divisions in the NFC. Those are the reasons that he gets to the playoffs.

In the playoffs those things do not help as much. All the playoff teams have good WR, good lines, good teams. They are (supposed to be) the best of the best. It is here that Ryan has a hard time holding up. It is in the playoffs where...the good are seperated from the great. Ryan and the Falcons are good, not great.

I do not care how his stats compare to Manning, at this stage. Maybe he will become the masterful game manager that Peyton is, but he will likely continue doing what he has done for the past 5 years. Play well in the regular season, due to advantages I listed, make the playoffs occasionally, and never get any further. Obviously I lean toward the latter. There is no evidence that anything will change.

[beasy2487]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1360868159' post='1357733']
Really? He threw a combined 1 TD and 8 INTs in two WINS. One of those was a 0 TD, 5 INT effort.
[/quote]

Did you really just choose 2 games out of 5 seasons worth of play where Ryan performed poorly and his team won? Come on man. "Never" may have been a strong word, but really? Do we really want to list all the games where Flacco played poorly and the team won? On top of that, I was talking about in the playoffs. The overall argument is that Ryan sucks because he has performed poorly in the post season. The point I was making is that this [b]team[/b] has shown it can win in the post season when Flacco plays poorly. If Ryan plays poorly his team loses. You could make the argument his 3 TD 2 INT performance against the Hawks wasn't stellar but they barely won that game and they won it on game-winning drive thanks to Ryan's arm.

All of this is moot, however, because Ryan is going to continue putting up good numbers, Flacco is going to continue winning, and for whatever reason this ridiculous debate over who is "better" is going to continue because we love football way too much and have entirely too much time on our hands lol.

[berad]

[quote name='beasy2487' timestamp='1360870559' post='1357766']
Did you really just choose 2 games out of 5 seasons worth of play where Ryan performed poorly and his team won? Come on man. "Never" may have been a strong word, but really? Do we really want to list all the games where Flacco played poorly and the team won? On top of that, I was talking about in the playoffs. The overall argument is that Ryan sucks because he has performed poorly in the post season. The point I was making is that this [b]team[/b] has shown it can win in the post season when Flacco plays poorly. If Ryan plays poorly his team loses. You could make the argument his 3 TD 2 INT performance against the Hawks wasn't stellar but they barely won that game and they won it on game-winning drive thanks to Ryan's arm.

All of this is moot, however, because Ryan is going to continue putting up good numbers, Flacco is going to continue winning, and for whatever reason this ridiculous debate over who is "better" is going to continue because we love football way too much and have entirely too much time on our hands lol.
[/quote]

Someone, I think hawkprey or callahan, made a thread showing that Matt Ryan can actually play poorly and the Falcons will win at a higher rate than the Ravens. I'll try to replicate...

W/L when their QBR is below 70...

[color=#ff0000][b]Matt Ryan / Falcons [/b][/color][b]9-10 (0.474)[/b]

[color=#800080][b]Joe Flacco / Ravens [/b][/color][b]10-16 (0.385) *Also includes the most recent Cincy game, take it out and it's 10-15 (0.4)[/b]

So, When they play 'bad games', in this case with a QBR of 70 or below - Matt Ryan and the Falcons win at a higher rate.

[beasy2487]

[quote name='jaege' timestamp='1360870314' post='1357762']
Okay, first, and dont take this the wrong way but, your caveat made me laugh. You are going with "if"? Lets stick with reality, and what did actually happen, not what might have happened based upon conjecture. I could just as easily and correctly argue that your "if" would lead to Ryan being killed by a freak bolt of lightning. "If" is fantasy. A story. A fairytale. Its not real. It didn't happen that way. Ryan has never made it to the SB because the Falcons teams he has led have not been good enough to overcome the other teams. That is it. No ifs ands or buts.

So Joe has had the benefit of a better team. So? That does not prove that Ryan is good. I am not comparing Flacco and Ryan. I am judging Ryan on his own merits and lack there of. Ryan has had one of the best WR squads in the league. He has had a pretty solid O-line. He has benefited from playing in one of the weakest divisions in the NFC. Those are the reasons that he gets to the playoffs.

In the playoffs those things do not help as much. All the playoff teams have good WR, good lines, good teams. They are (supposed to be) the best of the best. It is here that Ryan has a hard time holding up. It is in the playoffs where...the good are seperated from the great. Ryan and the Falcons are good, not great.

I do not care how his stats compare to Manning, at this stage. Maybe he will become the masterful game manager that Peyton is, but he will likely continue doing what he has done for the past 5 years. Play well in the regular season, due to advantages I listed, make the playoffs occasionally, and never get any further. Obviously I lean toward the latter. There is no evidence that anything will change.
[/quote]

Hahahahaha. Ok, let's deal with facts, then:

Matt Ryan in 2012 (Regular season + Post season): 38 TD 17 INT 5,365 YDs Avg. Passer Rating: 102.5

If this is mediocrity to you then you're going to be disappointed very often. Or are there other magic stats, facts, or figures that us common folk are unaware of?

For the sake of comparison(because situation factors like the team you play on have no bearing on this discussion):

Joe Flacco in 2012 (Regular season + Post season): 33 TD 10 INT 4957 YDs Avg. Passer Rating: 91.07

So obviously Flacco is head-and-shoulders beneath Ryan in the head-to-head right? [b]Wrong[/b]. Situational factors have everything to do with those stats and must be taken into account.

And regarding your argument about Manning... you're saying that their stats are similar over the first 5 years, their playoff records too... but you just "don't care" and have decided that Ryan is mediocre and will forever be mediocre even though every fact, figure, and piece of common sense state the contrary? I'm glad we're picking and choosing the stats we care about in the pursuit of making our arguments these days. Carry on.

[beasy2487]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1360871405' post='1357787']
Someone, I think hawkprey or callahan, made a thread showing that Matt Ryan can actually play poorly and the Falcons will win at a higher rate than the Ravens. I'll try to replicate...

W/L when their QBR is below 70...

[color=#ff0000][b]Matt Ryan / Falcons [/b][/color][b]9-10 (0.474)[/b]

[color=#800080][b]Joe Flacco / Ravens [/b][/color][b]10-16 (0.385) *Also includes the most recent Cincy game, take it out and it's 10-15 (0.4)[/b]

So, When they play 'bad games', in this case with a QBR of 70 or below - Matt Ryan and the Falcons win at a higher rate.
[/quote]

My point was referring specifically to the playoffs. I don't think it's really an argument that Matt Ryan has been the more consistent regular season QB to this point. Either way, overall they're both high quality QBs, with Joe having a slight edge because he rises to the moment whereas Ryan shrinks. In my opinion, post season play separates Hall of Famers from Greats, but it does not define whether or not you are great.

[Cville-Raven]

Lets see what Joe does with Caldwell.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1360871405' post='1357787']
Someone, I think hawkprey or callahan, made a thread showing that Matt Ryan can actually play poorly and the Falcons will win at a higher rate than the Ravens. I'll try to replicate...

W/L when their QBR is below 70...

[color=#ff0000][b]Matt Ryan / Falcons [/b][/color][b]9-10 (0.474)[/b]

[color=#800080][b]Joe Flacco / Ravens [/b][/color][b]10-16 (0.385) *Also includes the most recent Cincy game, take it out and it's 10-15 (0.4)[/b]

So, When they play 'bad games', in this case with a QBR of 70 or below - Matt Ryan and the Falcons win at a higher rate.
[/quote] I didn't make a thread or anything, but a few months ago I posted the stats that when Joe throws two or more INTs, the Ravens are 1-13 and when Matt Ryan throws two or more, the Falcons are 10-9.

Then we had a 3 game losing streak where Joe turned the ball over twice per game. Then Matt Ryan threw 2 picks and won a playoff game.

Turning the ball over is HUGE and Matt Ryan has done it 10 times in 5 postseason games. 2 in his 1 win and 8 in his 4 losses. Joe has done it (I believe) 10 times in 13 games. He has 2 in 9 wins and 8 in 4 losses.

[berad]

[quote name='beasy2487' timestamp='1360872151' post='1357799']
My point was referring specifically to the playoffs. I don't think it's really an argument that Matt Ryan has been the more consistent regular season QB to this point. Either way, overall they're both high quality QBs, with Joe having a slight edge because he rises to the moment whereas Ryan shrinks. In my opinion, post season play separates Hall of Famers from Greats, but it does not define whether or not you are great.
[/quote]

Agree with that but the Falcons are not as meek as people make them out to be.

[jaege]

[quote name='beasy2487' timestamp='1360872088' post='1357797']
Hahahahaha. Ok, let's deal with facts, then:

Matt Ryan in 2012 (Regular season + Post season): 38 TD 17 INT 5,365 YDs Avg. Passer Rating: 102.5

If this is mediocrity to you then you're going to be disappointed very often. Or are there other magic stats, facts, or figures that us common folk are unaware of?

For the sake of comparison(because situation factors like the team you play on have no bearing on this discussion):

Joe Flacco in 2012 (Regular season + Post season): 33 TD 10 INT 4957 YDs Avg. Passer Rating: 91.07

So obviously Flacco is head-and-shoulders beneath Ryan in the head-to-head right? [b]Wrong[/b]. Situational factors have everything to do with those stats and must be taken into account.

And regarding your argument about Manning... you're saying that their stats are similar over the first 5 years, their playoff records too... but you just "don't care" and have decided that Ryan is mediocre and will forever be mediocre even though every fact, figure, and piece of common sense state the contrary? I'm glad we're picking and choosing the stats we care about in the pursuit of making our arguments these days. Carry on.
[/quote]


Did you miss the part where I said I was not comparing Flacco and Ryan. Last season I would have said that Flacco was a good QB but not a great QB (as I have already said about Ryan), although, considering his playoff victories, I felt that we had a good chance of taking a SB with him. Okay, Ryan had better regular season stats than Flacco last year. So? Still doesn't make him a great QB. Of course Flacco had far superior playoff stats than Ryan and has for five years now (something the Ryan apologists always seem to forget). There is no SB without playoff wins, not that that is relevant to the discussion at hand.

For the sake of clarity, I still consider Flacco a good QB not a great QB. To me great equals guaranteed HOF. Flacco does not have the successes for that, although he may at some point. Also I never said that Ryan was mediocre. I said he is good. Good is still in the top 10 at least. There are not that many great QBs.


As far as Manning goes, I wasn't following Manning during his first five years in the league, but had I been, at that time, I would have considered him a good, not great QB. I bet that most of your pundits would have agreed. There was no way to know what he would eventually become. When I say he is one of the best I am considering his entire career. Now you can rattle off all the stats you want, but you have no way of predicting with any sort of accuracy whether or not Ryan will ever be good enough to be considered for the HOF, or even if he will ever win a SB. What fact or figure do you have that gives you this precognitive ability to predict the distant future. Your common sense and simple logic tells us that there is no way to do that.

You are looking at Ryan's stats, take an optimistic view and see him as improving. I look at the same stats take a more conservative view, and do not really see all that much improvement. Same stats, different viewpoints. I guess you could say that Ryan has finally won a playoff game, so there is a little improvement. It is just not enough to make me consider he is HOF bound. In five years his stats prove that he is good, competent, top ten. They in no way prove that he is following in Mannings footsteps on his way to an SB or the HOF. Massage it any way you like, it is just not there, unless you are a Falcons fan or are very very optimistic.

[DMH_in_WA]

I think what has always bugged me about this comparison is that Ryan and Flacco have very similar stats ... kind of eerily similar. The major differences, Flacco elevates in the post-season where Ryan seems to wilt and most importantly Flacco does this playing the vast majority of his games in outdoor stadiums in the North while Ryan plays a minimum 9 games every year indoors.

People have said it before, but I would have loved to have seen what his stats would look like if he played where Flacco plays. I can almost guarantee his numbers wouldn't be going up, they'd be going down.

Over their 5 years, Ryan's Comp % outdoors is on avg ~8% lower than his indoor %; Flacco stays right around the same with a slight ~2.5% increase (of note, Flacco has had 2 seasons where he never played indoors). Add in cold weather and the difference is even more dramatic. Ryan's comp % drops to something like 47% under 40degF (that's around a 15% drop from career avg) while Flacco's drops to around 58% (about a 2% drop in career avg).

If Ryan was on an AFC or NFC North team, I wouldn't expect his numbers to be that bad ... but I have a sneaking suspicions they wouldn't be as good as Flacco's numbers.

[beasy2487]

[quote name='jaege' timestamp='1360886227' post='1357975']



Did you miss the part where I said I was not comparing Flacco and Ryan. Last season I would have said that Flacco was a good QB but not a great QB (as I have already said about Ryan), although, considering his playoff victories, I felt that we had a good chance of taking a SB with him. Okay, Ryan had better regular season stats than Flacco last year. So? Still doesn't make him a great QB. Of course Flacco had far superior playoff stats than Ryan and has for five years now (something the Ryan apologists always seem to forget). There is no SB without playoff wins, not that that is relevant to the discussion at hand.

For the sake of clarity, I still consider Flacco a good QB not a great QB. To me great equals guaranteed HOF. Flacco does not have the successes for that, although he may at some point. Also I never said that Ryan was mediocre. I said he is good. Good is still in the top 10 at least. There are not that many great QBs.


As far as Manning goes, I wasn't following Manning during his first five years in the league, but had I been, at that time, I would have considered him a good, not great QB. I bet that most of your pundits would have agreed. There was no way to know what he would eventually become. When I say he is one of the best I am considering his entire career. Now you can rattle off all the stats you want, but you have no way of predicting with any sort of accuracy whether or not Ryan will ever be good enough to be considered for the HOF, or even if he will ever win a SB. What fact or figure do you have that gives you this precognitive ability to predict the distant future. Your common sense and simple logic tells us that there is no way to do that.

You are looking at Ryan's stats, take an optimistic view and see him as improving. I look at the same stats take a more conservative view, and do not really see all that much improvement. Same stats, different viewpoints. I guess you could say that Ryan has finally won a playoff game, so there is a little improvement. It is just not enough to make me consider he is HOF bound. In five years his stats prove that he is good, competent, top ten. They in no way prove that he is following in Mannings footsteps on his way to an SB or the HOF. Massage it any way you like, it is just not there, unless you are a Falcons fan or are very very optimistic.
[/quote]

I agree that we're looking at the stats from different lenses but to your point about Manning... He was anointed the second coming of Dan Marino when he was still in college. He built a reputation early in his career as a playoff choker, but no one ever doubted that he would put together a hall of fame career.

Back to the stats for a second though, you really think 38-17 for 5000+ and 102+ passer rating is mediocre? I just don't understand how, from any stance of objectivity, you can look at those numbers and say yea this QB that's still on his rookie contract isn't going anywhere.

[jaege]

[quote name='beasy2487' timestamp='1360898828' post='1358144']
I agree that we're looking at the stats from different lenses but to your point about Manning... He was anointed the second coming of Dan Marino when he was still in college. He built a reputation early in his career as a playoff choker, but no one ever doubted that he would put together a hall of fame career.

Back to the stats for a second though, you really think 38-17 for 5000+ and 102+ passer rating is mediocre? I just don't understand how, from any stance of objectivity, you can look at those numbers and say yea this QB that's still on his rookie contract isn't going anywhere.
[/quote]

As far as Manning, you are saying that he was the annointed one. Who annointed him? The same jack jaws that claimed and keep claiming that Flacco will go no where? I am sure you know the saying about throwing mud and it eventually sticking? Maybe they did have some way to make an accurate claim regarding Manning or maybe Manning was their sticky mud. I don't know, I wasn't there. I do know that Cam Newton was one of the annointed two years ago. And Tebow had a large following of those same jack jaws. Those are just two examples of inaccurate annointing. There are many many more. These guys are like weathermen,[i] sometimes [/i]they guess correctly.

I never said mediorce. That is your word. I said good, not great.The stats do look in the great vein, but stats do not tell the whole tale. He does have a few very good regular season records but has a problem doing anything in the playoffs, for whatever reason. And we all know that you have to make the playoffs and then win in the playoffs to get to the SB. This season not withstanding I am not convinced that he has turned that corner. Of course if he put up numbers like those for another year, then I will alter my opinion. All I am saying is that one season could be the fluke, and he could convert back to the competent and successful QB from two years ago, rather than the dynamo that we saw this year.

[gotekiraven]

Correct me if I am wrong on this. Flacco has been to the playoffs in every season he's played. Ryan and the Falcons didn't make it the playoffs in 2009 when they finished 9-7. This last season was the first time Matt Ryan was able to make it to the divisional round in the playoffs. Flacco in every season has made it to at a miniumum the divisional round in the playoffs. The way I see it, there is no comparrion. Ryan is a good QB, but he isn't in the same league as Flacco.

[beasy2487]

[quote name='jaege' timestamp='1360938992' post='1358500']
As far as Manning, you are saying that he was the annointed one.[b] Who annointed him? The same jack jaws that claimed and keep claiming that Flacco will go no where? [/b]I am sure you know the saying about throwing mud and it eventually sticking? Maybe they did have some way to make an accurate claim regarding Manning or maybe Manning was their sticky mud. I don't know, I wasn't there. I do know that Cam Newton was one of the annointed two years ago. And Tebow had a large following of those same jack jaws. Those are just two examples of inaccurate annointing. There are many many more. These guys are like weathermen,[i] sometimes [/i]they guess correctly.
[/quote]

.....

[color=#222222][font=Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][quote name='jaege' timestamp='1360886227' post='1357975']
As far as Manning goes, I wasn't following Manning during his first five years in the league, but had I been, at that time, I would have considered him a good, not great QB. [b]I bet that most of your pundits would have agreed.[/b] There was no way to know what he would eventually become. When I say he is one of the best I am considering his entire career. Now you can rattle off all the stats you want, but you have no way of predicting with any sort of accuracy whether or not Ryan will ever be good enough to be considered for the HOF, or even if he will ever win a SB. What fact or figure do you have that gives you this precognitive ability to predict the distant future. Your common sense and simple logic tells us that there is no way to do that.
[/quote]

Asked and answered. I'm not big on punditry either, but that comment was a response to the above.[/background][/size][/font][/color]

[color=#222222][font=Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][quote name='jaege' timestamp='1360938992' post='1358500']
[b]I never said mediorce. That is your word. I said good, not great.[/b]The stats do look in the great vein, but stats do not tell the whole tale. He does have a few very good regular season records but has a problem doing anything in the playoffs, for whatever reason. And we all know that you have to make the playoffs and then win in the playoffs to get to the SB. This season not withstanding I am not convinced that he has turned that corner. Of course if he put up numbers like those for another year, then I will alter my opinion. All I am saying is that one season could be the fluke, and he could convert back to the competent and successful QB from two years ago, rather than the dynamo that we saw this year.
[/quote][/background][/size][/font][/color]

Yes, mediocre is my word, but I was reacting to this comment:

[quote name='jaege' timestamp='1360811798' post='1357312']
[color=#222222][font=Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Okay. I see Flacco as either Manning or Brady (more like Brady because he will have multiple rings) but I don't see [b]who Ryan is supposed to be. The water boy?[/b] Ryan wishes he could have the respect and adoration of a Manning or Brady. Not in this life. He is and always will be a 2nd tier QB, with good stats. Book it.
[/quote]

You do go on to say he would have good stats, but that was a backhanded compliment at best. Obviously the "water boy" comment was sarcastic but that is what I was categorizing as "mediocre."

Overall, time will tell. We'll just have to wait and see.[/background][/size][/font][/color]

[cobrajet]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1360798427' post='1357088']
I stopped caring when Flacco got his ring, and even before I didn't care that much.

Let them cling to their stats. It's all they have.
[/quote]
I totally agree. Once Joe won a superbowl and tied Joe Montana's playoff record of 11 Tds 0 Ints that arguement was thrown out my window!

[Gordo52]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1360810467' post='1357284']
It is also wise to mention that he had the best postseason for any QB in the last ten years.....
[/quote]
I think it was the best ever. Purple bias or not, every factor that went into this superbowl run made it the best ever.

[AsianRice]

I can't believe we are still comparing Joe vs Ryan after Joe won the MVP SB...

I guess Joe needs to win 2 more SBs to shut Ryan's lovers......

[jaege]

[quote name='beasy2487' timestamp='1360951303' post='1358644']
.....



[font=Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4]Asked and answered. I'm not big on punditry either, but that comment was a response to the above.[/size][/font]



Yes, mediocre is my word, but I was reacting to this comment:



You do go on to say he would have good stats, but that was a backhanded compliment at best. Obviously the "water boy" comment was sarcastic but that is what I was categorizing as "mediocre."

Overall, time will tell. We'll just have to wait and see.[/background][/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]


Lol. Yeah I was being sarcastic, but I have stressed on several occasions that he is GOOD, not great. As far as backhanded compliment, I just do not think much of him. I think that he is overrated, stats aside, I think he is not as [i]great[/i] as a lot of people and pundits think he is.

[Purple Punishment]

I see alot of statistics thrown around but lets think of it like this. Joe Montana IMO is the greatest QB ever. He WON Super Bowls. Dan Marino had a wonderful career statistically, he never won a Super Bowl.

What I am trying to say here is, Matt Ryan might play great football, but when its time to put up and win the games that count, He doesnt have the mental stability to do so. ATL had a pretty easy schedule this year and when they faced real competition, they couldnt hang or almost lost.

Joe Flacco comes in and makes plays happen when it counts and I guarantee if we had Julio Jones and Roddy White, Joe Flacco would be the annointed of all QBs in the league.

Fact is, Matt Ryan has one playoff win in 5 years. I cant even count how many Joe has. But I know when we beat Denver, Flacco had more playoff wins in 2012 than Matt Ryan has had in his whole career

[Clutch Ravens]

I've never rated Matt Ryan and probably never will.

He has had Roddy White, Julio Jones and Tony Gonzalez at his disposal.

He plays AT LEAST 9 games per season in the comfort of a dome (8 at home, 1 in New Orleans) and 6 games per season in a division where playing defense is frowned upon.

When the chips are down I'd trust Matt Ryan as much as I'd trust Tony Romo.

In fact, they're pretty much the same player.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1361016192' post='1359195']
I've never rated Matt Ryan and probably never will.

He has had Roddy White, Julio Jones and Tony Gonzalez at his disposal.

He plays AT LEAST 9 games per season in the comfort of a dome (8 at home, 1 in New Orleans) and 6 games per season in a division where playing defense is frowned upon.

[b]When the chips are down I'd trust Matt Ryan as much as I'd trust Tony Romo.[/b]

In fact, they're pretty much the same player.
[/quote] I think Ryan and Romo can deliver in the clutch. In fact, doing the research, Romo is ranked 6th and Matt Ryan 8th in 4th quarter rating. Though Ryan's rating in the 4th is down from his overall average, it's still pretty good.

The argument can be made that many of the premier QBs in the league are in fact NOT clutch. Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Ben Roethlisberger all ended their seasons with an interception. That is, on their [b]very last attempt[/b] this year, they were picked off, effectively eliminating their team. Brees had 6 4th quarter interceptions this year, most in the NFC. Eli Manning ranked 12th in 4th quarter rating. So none of the real elites prove to be that clutch this year (except Rodgers, though he never seems to have game-winning 4th quarter drives).

So of all the top QBs, I wouldn't single Ryan out. Sure, I'll laugh when Matty Ice slips up but I don't see why I'd care that much. It's not like the Falcons made a mistake for drafting him. In fact, I think we would've drafted him if we had the chance. Anyone who needed a QB would've. And they wouldn't regret it. Does that mean Joe wouldn't have been a better pick? No. But that's like if you won the lottery and said "Yeah but the jackpot wasn't as big this year."

[flaccopoe]

Ryan will be hard-pressed to squeak by another playoff game next season, without Gonzalez. With the deficiencies at RB, he's not going to get much relief from the running game, either...

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1361081941' post='1359801']
I think Ryan and Romo can deliver in the clutch. In fact, doing the research, Romo is ranked 6th and Matt Ryan 8th in 4th quarter rating. Though Ryan's rating in the 4th is down from his overall average, it's still pretty good.

The argument can be made that many of the premier QBs in the league are in fact NOT clutch. Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Ben Roethlisberger all ended their seasons with an interception. That is, on their [b]very last attempt[/b] this year, they were picked off, effectively eliminating their team. Brees had 6 4th quarter interceptions this year, most in the NFC. Eli Manning ranked 12th in 4th quarter rating. So none of the real elites prove to be that clutch this year (except Rodgers, though he never seems to have game-winning 4th quarter drives).

So of all the top QBs, I wouldn't single Ryan out. Sure, I'll laugh when Matty Ice slips up but I don't see why I'd care that much. It's not like the Falcons made a mistake for drafting him. In fact, I think we would've drafted him if we had the chance. Anyone who needed a QB would've. And they wouldn't regret it. Does that mean Joe wouldn't have been a better pick? No. But that's like if you won the lottery and said "Yeah but the jackpot wasn't as big this year."
[/quote]

I disagree with your determination of "clutch". You cite 4th quarter statistics, we're talking about the big games, not the big situations. Romo has proven very un-clutch in the post season. As has Ryan.
If we had drafted Ryan, I believe we would have been disappointed. Just take a look at his situation there in Atlanta. The best weapons, a defensively weak division and over half of his games (or more) every season in a dome. Sure, his regular season stats reflect this somewhat, but they are not significantly better than Flacco's really, if one takes a close look. Further, once they face a real defense, he can't get it done. Under the bright lights, he fades.
I'm not saying he isn't a good QB, he is. Just that he is NOT great. In order to be great, much like Romo, much like everyone said of Flacco, he has to prove he can get it done when it matters most.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1361125716' post='1359979']
I disagree with your determination of "clutch". You cite 4th quarter statistics, we're talking about the big games, not the big situations. Romo has proven very un-clutch in the post season. As has Ryan.
If we had drafted Ryan, I believe we would have been disappointed. Just take a look at his situation there in Atlanta. The best weapons, a defensively weak division and over half of his games (or more) every season in a dome. Sure, his regular season stats reflect this somewhat, but they are not significantly better than Flacco's really, if one takes a close look. Further, once they face a real defense, he can't get it done. Under the bright lights, he fades.
I'm not saying he isn't a good QB, he is. Just that he is NOT great. In order to be great, much like Romo, much like everyone said of Flacco, he has to prove he can get it done when it matters most.
[/quote] By bright lights, you mean the playoffs.

But while Ryan and Romo have bad records in elimination games, so do a lot of top quarterbacks. At least recently. Peyton Manning is 2-4 in the playoffs since 2008. Tom Brady is 3-4. Eli got stomped twice in two games (vs us, vs ATL) and practically eliminated his team. Roethlisberger needed to win week 17 but instead threw an INT to lose the game.

Knowing that Eli needed to win against us to make the playoffs, making it an elimination game in hindsight, the 6 "elite" quarterbacks went a combined 2-5 in elimination (playoffs or win-and-in) games. Brees didn't qualify.

Romo and Ryan combined for 1-2.

So while you could say Romo and Ryan disappear in big games, you could also say that previous Super Bowl wins are excusing current QBs from similar present failures.

[admartian]

The author is most definitely covering up and tryng to justify his reasoning for that SB nation article.

And lol @ Brian Brohm to "Push" A-Rod!!! Maybe he did, and Pack fans really have to thank Brohm for Aaron's success.

[callahan09]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1360811005' post='1357302']
He's better then Ben, Eli and Ryan. I'm talking about from a public perception standpoint. Right now someone could have a fair argument that Ryan, Eli and Ben are comparable if not better then Flacco. However if anyone publicly stated that Freeman, Romo, Vick or Rivers are better then Flacco, i drug test my soon follow from their bosses.

There is still a perception that Flacco doesn't or can't carry this team. I heard Steve Whyce after the SB say he'd still pick Ryan because the Falcons ask him to do more. People still think Flacco just throws the ball up and his WRs bails him out. That because he hasn't thrown for 4,000yds and 30+TDs, he's not a top QB. Well all that will end after next season.
[/quote]

If you include the post-season, Flacco threw the ball 657 times. Tony Romo in the regular season threw the ball 648 times. So that's pretty darn close to the same. So what did Flacco accomplish with his 650-ish passes, compared to what Romo accomplished with his?

Well:

Flacco: 4957 Yards, 33 TD, 10 INT
Romo: 4903 Yards, 28 TD, 19 INT

Matt Ryan in the regular season threw 615 passes, and in those passes he had 4719 Yards, 32 TD, 14 INT.

If you extrapolate those numbers to the same number of passes as Flacco's 657, you get:

5041 Yards, 34 TD, 15 INT

So he would have thrown 84 additional yards, 1 more touchdown, and 5 more INTs. I'd take Flacco's efficiency over Ryan's any down at those numbers.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='callahan09' timestamp='1361281924' post='1361972']


If you include the post-season, Flacco threw the ball 657 times. Tony Romo in the regular season threw the ball 648 times. So that's pretty darn close to the same. So what did Flacco accomplish with his 650-ish passes, compared to what Romo accomplished with his?

Well:

Flacco: 4957 Yards, 33 TD, 10 INT
Romo: 4903 Yards, 28 TD, 19 INT

Matt Ryan in the regular season threw 615 passes, and in those passes he had 4719 Yards, 32 TD, 14 INT.

If you extrapolate those numbers to the same number of passes as Flacco's 657, you get:

5041 Yards, 34 TD, 15 INT

So he would have thrown 84 additional yards, 1 more touchdown, and 5 more INTs. I'd take Flacco's efficiency over Ryan's any down at those numbers.
[/quote]

Honestly those numbers are sewed, imo you'd have to separation Cameron Flacco from Caldwell Flacco. If you just take Flacco's numbers under Caldwell, because that's where this offense is going forward, Flacco' number are this. Not counting the Bengals game

6gms 118comp 202att 58.4% 1,703yds 15TDs 1INT 110.4QBR(not espn's)

If you strecth those numbers out over the course of 16gms Flacco's numbers look like.

16gms 314comp 538att 58.3% 4541yds 40TDs 3INTs 111.3QBR

The only poor stat is his completion percentage and even that's not a big deal. The best thing about Flacco is his yards per completion and he just doesn't throw the ball to the other team often. The scary thing about Flacco is, Caldwell really hasn't gotten his hooks into Flacco yet. We're talking about one year of QB coaching and 6 games a OC. Now they have a full offseason to grow.

There is nothing about what Flacco did in the 6 games played under Caldwell that made you think, wow that's unreal, which to me says Flacco can atleast stay consistently good with Caldwell, but I think once Caldwell fully implements his route concepts and gets to use all his weapon, I think Flacco improves.

Another thing is, Flacco completed a little over 19 balls a game. If he completes just 2 extra passes a game, maybe one less drop or throw away, he's up to 21 completions per game. Over the course of 16gms that would be 336 completions, with Flacco averaging 14.4 per completion, that would put Flacco at 4838yds.

I kno you can just post stats, especially with what ifs, so I'll just sit back and watch Flacco do his thing in 2013. I've said it a couple times before and i'll continue to say it, because it's not just Super Bowl hype, I strongly believe it, Joe Flacco will finish in the top 2 in MVP voting. Will they actually allow him to win it is another story.

[callahan09]

Since 2010, against playoff teams (including regular season & post-season matches), Matt Ryan ranks 15th out of 36 in passer rating (min. 200 attempts). Flacco, on the other hand, ranks 3rd behind only Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady.

The top 20:


1. Aaron Rodgers: 565/841, 6678 Yards, 50 TD, 13 INT = 104.5 QB Rating
2. Tom Brady: 560/874, 6658 Yards, 48 TD, 17 INT = 97.4 QB Rating
[u][b]3. Joe Flacco: 492/808, 6142 Yards, 46 TD, 12 INT = 97.3 QB Rating[/b][/u]
4. Drew Brees: 591/907, 6980 Yards, 55 TD, 25 INT = 97.2 QB Rating
5. Kyle Orton: 205/343, 2666 Yards, 15 TD, 4 INT = 94 QB Rating
6. Michael Vick: 191/297, 2414 Yards, 11 TD, 7 INT = 92.1 QB Rating
7. Tony Romo: 320/493, 3737 Yards, 23 TD, 15 INT = 90.6 QB Rating
8. Eli Manning: 453/750, 5501 Yards, 38 TD, 21 INT = 88.2 QB Rating
9. Matthew Stafford: 472/775, 5607 Yards, 31 TD, 16 INT = 87.7 QB Rating
10. Matt Schaub: 392/636, 4657 Yards, 24 TD, 14 INT = 87.4 QB Rating
11. Peyton Manning: 266/412, 2852 Yards, 19 TD, 13 INT = 87 QB Rating
12. Matt Hasselbeck: 370/592, 3935 Yards, 24 TD, 13 INT = 86.2 QB Rating
13. Kerry Collins: 133/231, 1494 Yards, 12 TD, 5 INT = 85.3 QB Rating
14. Tarvaris Jackson: 138/227, 1580 Yards, 8 TD, 5 INT = 84.3 QB Rating
[u][b]15. Matt Ryan: 437/710, 4536 Yards, 29 TD, 16 INT = 84.2 QB Rating[/b][/u]
16. Alex Smith: 318/516, 3429 Yards, 21 TD, 14 INT = 83.4 QB Rating
17. Carson Palmer: 415/654, 4619 Yards, 24 TD, 23 INT = 82 QB Rating
18. Josh Freeman: 424/704, 4704 Yards, 28 TD, 20 INT = 81.5 QB Rating
19. Philip Rivers: 378/619, 4450 Yards, 22 TD, 21 INT = 80.6 QB Rating
20. Ben Roethlisberger: 410/686, 4907 Yards, 24 TD, 22 INT = 80 QB Rating

Not only are Flacco's numbers much more efficient, but he also has had to do more against those good teams, as he has 808 throws versus 710 by Ryan. Almost 100 more throws.

Basically, Ryan piles up the stats against garbage teams. Flacco, for whatever reason, doesn't. Maybe that will change under Caldwell, perhaps that was a symptom of Cam Cameron... who knows, but Flacco is excellent against good teams, but hasn't always been against the lesser opponents. Personally I like the Cam excuse, and I think that trend will change next year. If Flacco can play as well as he should be able to against the lesser teams, his stats will fly off the charts, because he already plays extremely well against the best teams.

Oh, and by the way, the average QB Rating in the NFL against playoff teams from 2010-2012 was: 81.7. Philip Rivers and Ben Roethlisberger are below average against the playoff teams in that span. Matt Ryan and Alex Smith are only slightly above. Flacco is way above average.

Oh, and here's another example of how passer rating under-rates Flacco:

2. Tom Brady: 560/874, 6658 Yards, 48 TD, 17 INT = 97.4 QB Rating
3. Joe Flacco: 492/808, 6142 Yards, 46 TD, 12 INT = 97.3 QB Rating

If you extrapolate Flacco's numbers out to 874 attempts you get:

6644 Yards, 50 TD, 13 INT.

His efficiency was on pace for 2 more TDs, 4 fewer INTs, and practically identical yards (only a difference of 14 yards), and yet Brady has a higher rating? Completion percentage be damned, if my guy is throwing the ball the same number of times, for the same number of yards, but has more TDs and fewer INTs, I take him every damn time, regardless of what their completion percentages say!

[AsianRice]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1361130509' post='1360013']
By bright lights, you mean the playoffs.

But while Ryan and Romo have bad records in elimination games, so do a lot of top quarterbacks. At least recently. Peyton Manning is 2-4 in the playoffs since 2008. Tom Brady is 3-4. Eli got stomped twice in two games (vs us, vs ATL) and practically eliminated his team. Roethlisberger needed to win week 17 but instead threw an INT to lose the game.

Knowing that Eli needed to win against us to make the playoffs, making it an elimination game in hindsight, the 6 "elite" quarterbacks went a combined 2-5 in elimination (playoffs or win-and-in) games. Brees didn't qualify.

Romo and Ryan combined for 1-2.

So while you could say Romo and Ryan disappear in big games, you could also say that previous Super Bowl wins are excusing current QBs from similar present failures.
[/quote]
That's what I love about football, the unpredictability......


PS: after watching Joe Montana's tribute couple das ago, I got a feeling Joe will be the next Montana; it's like a dream but I feel it...