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bmore ravens

I hate to say it, but Pierce should have more carries than Rice

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I'm interested in hearing others' opinions on this, because it appears to me that Rice is a "boom or bust" player. Rice's high stuff percentage is one of the reasons that the Ravens seem to find themselves in so many third-and-longs, which in turn is a major component of the criticism of Flacco as being "inconsistent." Rice is good for a splash play every game on average (by my unquantified reckoning), which is fantastic, but Pierce in as a running back should lead to a far more consistent offensive output by virtue of the difference between a third and six and a third and three.
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Pierce and Rice have a perfect formula right now and I'd like to leave it as -is until at least next season and probably after. I think they both function better rotating.
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I think both running backs complement each other. IMO Ray Rice's presence makes Pierce a better runner. Teams game plan for Rice. So I think when a more down hill runner comes in the game the defense is caught off guard.
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I truly believe that Pierce is a better pure runner than Rice, but Rice is a playmaker, plain and simple. Rice is the guy who needs the most touches, but Pierce should continue to get a significant amount of carries.
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I say stick to what works . ray rice is one of the best backs in the league . Pierce is not proven IMO for the big games we got coming up . I love him but i think we are better using both .
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Rice's splash playmaking is better suited for putting up points, and Pierce's consistency and one dimensional game is better suited for eating up the clock.

Those are their current roles.
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[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1357922880' post='1301762']
Pierce and Rice have a perfect formula right now and I'd like to leave it as -is until at least next season and probably after. I think they both function better rotating.
[/quote]

Agree 100% :sarcasticclap:
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Ray Rice is my favorite player on this team. I feel he's earned his stripes and should start games the rest of this season but Pierce should get spot duty in the first quarter and if he's producing first downs he should be getting more and more looks that particular game. Harbaugh shouldn't worry about upsetting the apple cart and go with Pierce in back to back series if he's getting the job done.

It seems this the Ravens blocking scheme fits Pierce's running style to a tee.



I've always said when players come to camp there should be competition for every job and I always believe no Raven player is more important than the team.

Go Ray, Go Pierce, Go Ravens!!!
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[quote name='Chris J. Faria' timestamp='1357924525' post='1301803']
The discussion is only going to get worse in the next two years, when Ray Rice gets older and Bernard Pierce finds his stride. I can [i]easily [/i]seeing so many topics getting closed and merged, just because this debate will never stop (in the near future).

The way I look at it? Well, Rice and Pierce are very different running backs; both complement each other real nicely. Rice is a better blocker, is nearly unstoppable when catching the football (since he avoids the defensive linemen) and, if given the proper blocking and lane, he can run with the football for huge gains once he cuts it to the outside and uses his speed. Pierce, on the other hand, is a bigger back and stands a better chance of actually being able to pound the football. Pierce also has a freakish athletic ability, allowing him to hurdle over defenders or escaping and picking-up yards after receiving contact.

Basically, like we saw on Sunday, if Ray Rice struggles (which he only did by fumbling twice, otherwise he had a solid game), John Harbaugh has no problem putting Bernard Pierce in. But, just imagine if Rice and Pierce lined-up, together, in some kind of split-backs formation; talk about endless possibilities...
[/quote]
Agreed and agreed...
They are both integral pieces of this Ravens offense. With that said, I personally LOVE seeing power backs work.
But I think the core of this discussion comes down to "Hey! Where is that Ray Rice that we all watched squeak around like a mouse between defenders legs? That guy who could put a hand on the ground then turn that into some kind of explosive propulsion for 10 more yards?"
I think its safe to say that Rice has proven himself as a premier running back, but maybe is close to peaking... Running backs do have a short shelf life in this league...
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Why do ppl seem intent on pitting Rice vs Pierce. They are both important parts of the offense and complement each other very well. As I said in another thread defenses are now forced to respect the run when either back is in the game which opens up the passing attack.

Im hoping to see a lot of single back looks with 2 TEs to force mismatches against the questionable Broncos LBs. If they stay in base then we hit Pitta or Dickson over the middle on on a nice PA boot. If they sub then run it right at them.
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I think that this is really going to depend on if McKinnie starts at LT and KO's at LG. If our staff feels confident with our OL lineup last week, I believe we will see a bona fide game plan from Caldwell where both RB's are used.
I think a productive Rice early will dicate rushing plays. IMO, Rice will have a great game.
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Since the argument about Rice and Pierce came up... what about next year and the two backs we have on ir with Berry and Rainey. Both of those those backs resemble what we have with Rice and Pierce. Berry runs like Pierce and Rainey is a dual threat like Rice. Allen made the team based on special teams but could be moved to fb and Berry was a DB in college so he could be used on special teams as well. We are deep and young at the skilled positions... makes you wonder what the future will be now that Flacco is due a new contract.
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I don't think you go into the game with a number. Whoeer is running better and isn't gassed should get more carries.

This game is really going to need both of these guys. I am not concerned with the amount of carries or targetting a number.

Both are lethal
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I can't always see the numbers on the jerseys so sometimes I can't tell if it's Rice or Pierce, but as soon as the ball is snapped, I can totally tell. I think they are a great compliment to each other
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Keep things just like they are. Just do more of it. Pound this undersized defense and don't stop. Spread them out and use Rice out of the backfield against their LBs. Force thos edge rushers to hesitate just one split second with the play action, so that your OTs can get hands on them.

Not sure why it has to be one or the other. Both guys fit the offense and what the Ravens wanna do, but more importantly, Caldwell is using both very effectively. The Ravens have to attack that defense and not let up. Why make it easy for the Broncos, make them defend both.
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But what happens when Pierce has a bad game? You can't just switch back and forth with starters. That's one of the worst mistakes a lot of teams make. The Steelers did it this year, niners did it with qb's...you take a guy and stick with him. Pierce is pretty darn good but it's all part of a 1-2 punch. We give Pierce a start (which I disagree with) and he has a bad game or two bad games then we all want Rice back. It becomes a competition between the two instead of a partnership.

Pierce has earned the trust of the coaching staff to receive extended handoffs in a drive when he plays well. We can't just avoid Rice. The duo is working so don't fix what isn't broken.
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Ray Rice is the guy that people are afraid of and gameplan for. He's been doing it for years and deserves to be the starter. But, that doesn't mean the carries can't be about 50-50, which I think they should be. Keep it that way until one guy gets hot, then make give him more carries for the rest of the game. I don't think there's ever a scenario where one guy shouldn't be getting carries, but Pierce definitely deserves more carries than he was getting in the earlier part of the season. I love it every time he touches the ball. 300+ yards in the last three weeks, and no fumbles all year long.
I agree about Rice being a "boom or bust" running back. There's no denying he has more natural talent than most running backs. But, one thing he severely lacks is patience. Get him in the open field, and he's the guy you want. But, if we're playing a time-of-possesssion/field position game, I trust Pierce to consistently pick up 3-5 yards a carry while Rice will carry a bunch of one-yard gains before finally getting a ten-yarder. Pierce, has that patience, and we've seen him make something out of nothing when it looks like a sure loss, and he gets back to the line of scrimmage. Very few negative plays from Bernard Pierce. That's huge.
Both guys need touches. I'd love for every game to look like it did last week, with each guy getting 13-15 carries (although, I'd rather see them combine for more than 28 carries). I hope both guys can stay healthy so we can see what this team looks like next year with both guys getting significant carries throughout the year. Rice might drop down to around 1000 yards on the year, but I think Pierce would get much closer to it. Two 1000 yard rushers would make this offense, dare I say, consistent (read: nearly unstoppable).
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[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1357954538' post='1302401']
Use Rice as a slot receiver like Wes Welker.
[/quote]
Too short........
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As much as I like Pierce, the focus of our running game still needs to be Ray Rice period. He brings an element of surprise like no other RB does. He is electric in both the run game and short passing game with yards after catch. Pierce has been playing great recently and he will have his carries, but only to spell Ray Rice.... it is entirely possible that they get 100 yards each again this week!
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[quote name='Fang' timestamp='1357924563' post='1301805']
I think both running backs complement each other. IMO Ray Rice's presence makes Pierce a better runner. Teams game plan for Rice. So I think when a more down hill runner comes in the game the defense is caught off guard.
[/quote]


Yep. And once they start to game plan for Pierce, then we run Rice again. It will be like that. Some games Rice will dominate, some he won't and then we have Pierce.
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[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1357954707' post='1302405']
Too short........
[/quote]

Welker isn't?

Playing as a slot guy isn't about size. It's about burst, quickness, and hands. Rice has that. Size is overrated in my opinion, at least as a slot guy.
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[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1357974062' post='1302631']


Welker isn't?

Playing as a slot guy isn't about size. It's about burst, quickness, and hands. Rice has that. Size is overrated in my opinion, at least as a slot guy.
[/quote]
Also depends on route running. Welker is usually a damn good route runner with solid hands. If you are in the slot, but your route running is worthless, then you as a player are worthless (captian obvious ftw).

Idk much about Ray as a route runner As a RB their are only a few routes he can run, wheel, screens, where occasionally the slot guy has to go over the middle. I'm more worried that he would get killed, I think he can be an effective slot guy, just also think with as much wear and tear he has taken as a RB (who have very short careers) he would get killed quicker. The slot guy gets hit a lot, Welker is always on the injury report, idk if Ray would be able to take it..

I don't want to put our best player on offense in a situation like that if you know what I mean. Boldin can take the being hit a lot. Not so sure bout Ray
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[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1357974062' post='1302631']
Size is overrated in my opinion, at least as a slot guy.
[/quote]

Agreed. Size is better for outside guys to work with their hands to get off the line, or to go up for a jump ball. I'd rather see speed used inside, and size used outside.
Rice is a running back. He doesn't run routes against corners and safeties. He's great with the ball in his hands in space, which is what happens when linebackers cover him out of the backfield. If he were used solely as a wide receiver (purely for hypothetical purposes), he'd be covered like any other receiver, and his value would go down.
Using that logic backwards, though, getting a guy like Torrey or Jacoby, who are good in space but rarely find it after making a catch, to come out of the backfield on a route (probably only possible in shotgun) might make things interesting.
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[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1357954538' post='1302401']
Use Rice as a slot receiver like Wes Welker.
[/quote] I actually recall seeing some plays, earlier in the year, with RR in the slot position...not a bad idea. But in reference to the OPs comment; it shouldn't have to be either or. Use either or both as the situation requires...and I think tomorrow would be a good example of the "use both". If I were the OC, Leach, RR and BP would never leave the field. Let Vonn Miller and company chase them around for a while and watch #5 come alive! ;)
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[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1357974582' post='1302635']
Also depends on route running. Welker is usually a damn good route runner with solid hands. If you are in the slot, but your route running is worthless, then you as a player are worthless (captian obvious ftw).

Idk much about Ray as a route runner As a RB their are only a few routes he can run, wheel, screens, where occasionally the slot guy has to go over the middle. I'm more worried that he would get killed, I think he can be an effective slot guy, just also think with as much wear and tear he has taken as a RB (who have very short careers) he would get killed quicker. The slot guy gets hit a lot, Welker is always on the injury report, idk if Ray would be able to take it..

I don't want to put our best player on offense in a situation like that if you know what I mean. Boldin can take the being hit a lot. Not so sure bout Ray
[/quote]

You're not sure about our starting running back's ability to take a hit? Lol! Come on man!

Rice is a very good route runner. In the few times he has been in the slot, he has run crisp routes.
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[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1357974752' post='1302641']


You're not sure about our starting running back's ability to take a hit? Lol! Come on man!

Rice is a very good route runner. In the few times he has been in the slot, he has run crisp routes.
[/quote]
Well let me put it this way. I'm glad Pollard is on our team....
If Rice is a good Route Runner, give him a shot..... Or draft a Tavon Austin or Robert Woods.....

Let's see what he can do
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