144 replies to this topic

[bMore Heathen]

So my question is how much stock did this kid lose in the NC last night. Very poor tackling and looked lost in coverage. Bama went after him in the run game and the passing game. I think it hurts him because those backs for Bama are NFL caliber.
Thoughts?

[berad]

Whole team got blasted, I don't watch college football but had heard the hype on Te'o. He got washed out on almost every play I saw.

[blackandpurplesacks]

I hope not too much for him to fall to us. I'm not a huge Te'o fan and hope someone takes him before we pick. First, ILB is not really an impact position on the field in this pass-happy league. NT/DT is much more important in today's NFL if you are looking for help in the middle. NT/DT help create pressure and plug holes so the LB can make plays. Also, his athleticism is average. He is kind of like Barrett Jones of Alabama. He relies on his incredible intelligence and insticts to make up for what he lacks in athleticism and strength. While intelligence and instincts are very important, at MLB you have to have the physical tools to make the tackles and run people down. I like Arthur Brown much better as a MLB prospect and could be a much greater value pick than Te'o.

[horus13corvineus]

his stock will fall that much that we'll go for any decent tackle left on board before picking him

[bMore Heathen]

I agree 100% (blackandpurplesacks)

Edited by bMore Heathen, 08 January 2013 - 03:27 PM.

[Miami Hurricane]

I agree 100% (blackandpurplesacks)

I second this

[gabefergy]

I hope not too much for him to fall to us. I'm not a huge Te'o fan and hope someone takes him before we pick. First, ILB is not really an impact position on the field in this pass-happy league. NT/DT is much more important in today's NFL if you are looking for help in the middle. NT/DT help create pressure and plug holes so the LB can make plays. Also, his athleticism is average. He is kind of like Barrett Jones of Alabama. He relies on his incredible intelligence and insticts to make up for what he lacks in athleticism and strength. While intelligence and instincts are very important, at MLB you have to have the physical tools to make the tackles and run people down. I like Arthur Brown much better as a MLB prospect and could be a much greater value pick than Te'o.

Let me first just say I completely disagree with your premise that ILB is not an important or impact position. I would argue that the type of player you have at ILB is one of the most important aspects in an elite defense.

Now, if you want to say the days of the 250+ big strong backers that are downhill run stuffers I will agree with you. However, if you look at all the best defenses they have dynamic players at ILB whether it be a Daryl Washington, Lawrence Timmons, Novarro Bowman, Bobby Wagner etc. You have to have athletes at ILB that can cover and can rush the passer as well as being sure tacklers in the run game. The question then becomes how do you evaluate those prospects in college and isolate skills that will translate to the next level. CJ Mosley was probably my favorite ILB but he is staying in college for another year. I think Arthur Brown and Alec Ogletree can both be impactful players as well.

So what are these player's draft value and where does that leave Te'o. I said in another thread not to overreact to one game. Te'o is a smart player with great intangibles. His instincts are excellent and he reads and reacts better than any ILB prospect I've seen in a while. However, I have had questions about his athleticism and range. That is why I never had him as a top 10 player as many others did. That doesnt mean he isnt an elite prospect though. The combine will be huge for him just like it was for Luke Kuechly last year. Kuechly proved he was a great athlete and his play this year really backed that up. So to me Te'o is clearly a first round player, but how he tests at the combine will determine if he goes in the top half of the first or slips to the back end.

[blackandpurplesacks]

Let me first just say I completely disagree with your premise that ILB is not an important or impact position. I would argue that the type of player you have at ILB is one of the most important aspects in an elite defense.

Now, if you want to say the days of the 250+ big strong backers that are downhill run stuffers I will agree with you. However, if you look at all the best defenses they have dynamic players at ILB whether it be a Daryl Washington, Lawrence Timmons, Novarro Bowman, Bobby Wagner etc. You have to have athletes at ILB that can cover and can rush the passer as well as being sure tacklers in the run game. The question then becomes how do you evaluate those prospects in college and isolate skills that will translate to the next level. CJ Mosley was probably my favorite ILB but he is staying in college for another year. I think Arthur Brown and Alec Ogletree can both be impactful players as well.

So what are these player's draft value and where does that leave Te'o. I said in another thread not to overreact to one game. Te'o is a smart player with great intangibles. His instincts are excellent and he reads and reacts better than any ILB prospect I've seen in a while. However, I have had questions about his athleticism and range. That is why I never had him as a top 10 player as many others did. That doesnt mean he isnt an elite prospect though. The combine will be huge for him just like it was for Luke Kuechly last year. Kuechly proved he was a great athlete and his play this year really backed that up. So to me Te'o is clearly a first round player, but how he tests at the combine will determine if he goes in the top half of the first or slips to the back end.

When saying ILB was not an impact position, I was meaning the downhill run stuffers, big physical guys. I don't see Te'o having the athletic ability to really be the type of player that Bowman is for the 49ers. He doesn't seem to have the speed or even strength to be the player that Bowman and the others that you mentioned have. His combine could prove me wrong, but I don't see it. While he was a sure tackler this year (until last night), he doesn't look like he has sideline to sideline speed to chase down running backs and even TEs. Instincts and intelligence are off the charts though.

I don't know that I take him if he is there for us. Would I be upset or against it? Absolutely not because of the mental aspect of his game and I see him being the hardest working guy in the locker room. Would I crown him the next Ray Lewis and pee my pants with excitement either? Absolutely not. I think I would hold guarded optimism over the pick. It does also depend who is left on the board at that time.

[Sizzlebshu]

Let me first just say I completely disagree with your premise that ILB is not an important or impact position. I would argue that the type of player you have at ILB is one of the most important aspects in an elite defense.

Now, if you want to say the days of the 250+ big strong backers that are downhill run stuffers I will agree with you. However, if you look at all the best defenses they have dynamic players at ILB whether it be a Daryl Washington, Lawrence Timmons, Novarro Bowman, Bobby Wagner etc. You have to have athletes at ILB that can cover and can rush the passer as well as being sure tacklers in the run game. The question then becomes how do you evaluate those prospects in college and isolate skills that will translate to the next level. CJ Mosley was probably my favorite ILB but he is staying in college for another year. I think Arthur Brown and Alec Ogletree can both be impactful players as well.

So what are these player's draft value and where does that leave Te'o. I said in another thread not to overreact to one game. Te'o is a smart player with great intangibles. His instincts are excellent and he reads and reacts better than any ILB prospect I've seen in a while. However, I have had questions about his athleticism and range. That is why I never had him as a top 10 player as many others did. That doesnt mean he isnt an elite prospect though. The combine will be huge for him just like it was for Luke Kuechly last year. Kuechly proved he was a great athlete and his play this year really backed that up. So to me Te'o is clearly a first round player, but how he tests at the combine will determine if he goes in the top half of the first or slips to the back end.

Let me point out my problem with your premise. Do you know what those teams that you have mentioned have in common? A strong D-line

Cards - Dockett Campbell

49ers - Justin Smith (you can argue Aldon since he sometimes sticks his hand in the dirt, but Smith is the heart of that D line).

Ravens - Ngata (While Ray was good prior to Ngata, Ray even commented on how he needed help on the d line and championed Ngata. Plus Ray is probably the GOAT at an ilb.)

Pitt - Had Hampton, Keisel etc..

Seahawks - Irvin, Clemons etc...

My point while an ilb is important to have an elite defense, it is more like the frosting on top of the cake. Getting one with no cake underneath is pointless. While frosting is delicious, it has no substance. Likewise, an ilb going to a team with probs on the d line (like us) isn't a smart move.

Edited by Sizzlebshu, 08 January 2013 - 05:34 PM.

[gabefergy]

Let me point out my problem with your premise. Do you know what those teams that you have mentioned have in common? A strong D-line

Cards - Dockett Campbell

49ers - Justin Smith (you can argue Aldon since he sometimes sticks his hand in the dirt, but Smith is the heart of that D line).

Ravens - Ngata (While Ray was good prior to Ngata, Ray even commented on how he needed help on the d line and championed Ngata. Plus Ray is probably the GOAT at an ilb.)

Pitt - Had Hampton, Keisel etc..

Seahawks - Irvin, Clemons etc...

My point while an ilb is important to have an elite defense, it is more like the frosting on top of the cake. Getting one with no cake underneath is pointless. While frosting is delicious, it has no substance. Likewise, an ilb going to a team with probs on the d line (like us) isn't a smart move.

It's not that simple. Some teams have great D lines but still struggle because they have LBers that cant cover and have poor range. I would actually put the Ravens in that category in some instances. Take the Eagles game as an example. Our Dline dominated completely limiting Shady McCoy but we lost because our LB corps couldnt cover their TEs.

I'm not really talking about the ability of ILBs in run so much as their 3rd down and pass down capabilities which is completely distinct from Dline play.

I dont mean to say the D line isn't important, but LBs have just as much importance in an elite defense. That doesnt mean we have to take a LB in the first round, but to me it is a much more glaring weakness in our defense than Dline play.

[blackandpurplesacks]

Can Manti be that guy in coverage though? I don't think so. Arthur brown and Ogletree both can be

[flaccopoe]

Te'o needs to work on his strength and agility. He'll need plenty of both to tackle freight trains like Marshawn Lynch, Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson. Thank goodness for conditioning!

[gabefergy]

Can Manti be that guy in coverage though? I don't think so. Arthur brown and Ogletree both can be

Yeah, I think he can. He really is more than just hype. Go watch some tape on him instead of formulating your answer after one game.

[GrimCoconut]

Yeah, I think he can. He really is more than just hype. Go watch some tape on him instead of formulating your answer after one game.

I hope a lot of GMs write him off after that one game. I know one GM who won't: Ozzie Newsome. It's amazing how you can write someone off after one game. It makes me wonder if people even watched his other games where he was brilliant.

As for Te'o's stock? I don't think it has been affected too much--yet. It really depends on the Senior Bowl & combine. If he performs poorly at either one his stock can suffer severely. I hope it does.

[Sizzlebshu]

It's not that simple. Some teams have great D lines but still struggle because they have LBers that cant cover and have poor range. I would actually put the Ravens in that category in some instances. Take the Eagles game as an example. Our Dline dominated completely limiting Shady McCoy but we lost because our LB corps couldnt cover their TEs.

I'm not really talking about the ability of ILBs in run so much as their 3rd down and pass down capabilities which is completely distinct from Dline play.

I dont mean to say the D line isn't important, but LBs have just as much importance in an elite defense. That doesnt mean we have to take a LB in the first round, but to me it is a much more glaring weakness in our defense than Dline play.

And again I disagree with that final point because its clear that Ngata is the only capable player we have on the D-line when Suggs isn't there to pressure the opposing o-line. Arthur Brown, Kruger, Mcphee etc... all were extremely underwhelming and ineffective until Suggs returned. Even when Suggs isn getting pressure, his mere presence opens up 1-1 or openings for the others.

So if Suggs or Ngata goes down to injury (both are likely in the future since Ngata is always injured and is aging, and Suggs has suffered one of the worst injuries you can suffer) our defense goes from being a top 5 to bottom of the league. This seems like a glaring weakness that needs to be addressed to me.

Ilb is an immediate weakness, but as we saw, we were okay with average linebacker play. I can live with McClain and Ellerbe. I cant live without Ngata or Suggs. I realize the talent discrepancy, but you should know I am talking about it in the context of Ray Lewis's production for his position, is much more easily replaceable than Suggs or Ngata's. We lose Ray Lewis, we are okay production wise. We lose Ngata or Suggs, we are dead defensively.

I definitely dont think we should take an ilb in the first, but even still I prioritize shoring up the D-line as a top priority and much more so than ilb.

Yes our linebackers did suffer in coverage a bit, but thats the way the nfl is trending.Linebackers are going to be picked on in coverage because they are the easiest to create mismatches with so our linebackers getting killed by atheletic TE's like Hernandez, Gronk, Celek (dude is atheletic enough to hop straight over Ed Reed) isn't an insane concern for me because it would take a prospect of similar talent on the defensive side to deal with them.

Note: The reason I didnt say olb is a position of need despite it presenting the same prob when Suggs goes down, is because we did take Upshaw. I feel that that the team did try to address the need and while Mcphee and Jones are great, I dont see a nose tackle to anchor that line or either one as more than rotational end. Basically every spot on the d line is by committee except for Ngata which will be a prob if Ngata's injuries ever add up.

Edited by Sizzlebshu, 08 January 2013 - 06:17 PM.

[gabefergy]

And again I disagree with that final point because its clear that Ngata is the only capable player we have on the D-line when Suggs isn't there to pressure the opposing o-line. Arthur Brown, Kruger, Mcphee etc... all were extremely underwhelming and ineffective until Suggs returned. Even when Suggs isn getting pressure, his mere presence opens up 1-1 or openings for the others.

So if Suggs or Ngata goes down to injury (both are likely in the future since Ngata is always injured and is aging, and Suggs has suffered one of the worst injuries you can suffer) our defense goes from being a top 5 to bottom of the league. This seems like a glaring weakness that needs to be addressed to me.

Ilb is an immediate weakness, but as we saw, we were okay with average linebacker play. I can live with McClain and Ellerbe. I cant live without Ngata or Suggs. I realize the talent discrepancy, but you should know I am talking about it in the context of Ray Lewis's production for his position, is much more easily replaceable than Suggs or Ngata's. We lose Ray Lewis, we are okay production wise. We lose Ngata or Suggs, we are dead defensively.

I definitely dont think we should take an ilb in the first, but even still I prioritize shoring up the D-line as a top priority and much more so than ilb.

Yes our linebackers did suffer in coverage a bit, but thats the way the nfl is trending.Linebackers are going to be picked on in coverage because they are the easiest to create mismatches with so our linebackers getting killed by atheletic TE's like Hernandez, Gronk, Celek (dude is atheletic enough to hop straight over Ed Reed) isn't an insane concern for me because it would take a prospect of similar talent on the defensive side to deal with them.

Note: The reason I didnt say olb is a position of need despite it presenting the same prob when Suggs goes down, is because we did take Upshaw. I feel that that the team did try to address the need and while Mcphee and Jones are great, I dont see a nose tackle to anchor that line or either one as more than rotational end. Basically every spot on the d line is by committee except for Ngata which will be a prob if Ngata's injuries ever add up.

So you say that the NFL is trending towards exploiting mismatches at LB but you dont think that is an important area to address? That logic makes zero sense to me. You can only exploit a weakness if it is in fact a weakness.

Clearly Ngata is the only elite player we have on our Dline, but that is more than we have at LB. Jones and McPhee both had nice years. You can attribute that to other players if you want, but the fact remains we have more depth and talent at Dline than we do at LB right now.

[Sizzlebshu]

So you say that the NFL is trending towards exploiting mismatches at LB but you dont think that is an important area to address? That logic makes zero sense to me. You can only exploit a weakness if it is in fact a weakness.

Clearly Ngata is the only elite player we have on our Dline, but that is more than we have at LB. Jones and McPhee both had nice years. You can attribute that to other players if you want, but the fact remains we have more depth and talent at Dline than we do at LB right now.

Yes I am saying that the nfl is trending toward using big fast atheltic tight ends to create mismatches with linebackers.They are exploiting the fact that linebackers have to be bigger and stronger and sacrifice speed in order to do their job helping in run support.

Its not a weakness of the prospects or any team per se, it is a weakness of the position in general. The linebacker position just hasnt evolved to the point where linebackers can run 4.5 and weight 250. Right now you either get very fast and athletic but has trouble shedding blocks or great in run support and ok in pass coverage.

Its a weakness of the nfl game and thats why TE's like Graham and Gronk are highly valued commodities.

As for d line vs linebacker. Its easier to find consistent talent at linebacker than d-line imo and I think we are okay with Ellerbe and McClain and whoever we take/sign later if Suggs goes down. I dont think we will be okay on the d line if Ngata goes down with Mcphee Jones (who if an rfa after this year) and either Kemotherapy Mt.Cody or 7th rounder Deangelo Tyson.

[marylandmike12]

Te'o does need some work but he will definitely not fall all the way to the Ravens unless we drastically move up in the draft. The Ravens need to focus on a better Defensive-line to help Ngata and Suggs.

[Defence_Is_Salvation]

I'm now team Elam.

Ellerbe and Arthur Brown will do just fine with a better DL and Kruger finally coming good.

[marylandmike12]

Yes I am saying that the nfl is trending toward using big fast atheltic tight ends to create mismatches with linebackers.They are exploiting the fact that linebackers have to be bigger and stronger and sacrifice speed in order to do their job helping in run support.

Its not a weakness of the prospects or any team per se, it is a weakness of the position in general. The linebacker position just hasnt evolved to the point where linebackers can run 4.5 and weight 250. Right now you either get very fast and athletic but has trouble shedding blocks or great in run support and ok in pass coverage.

Its a weakness of the nfl game and thats why TE's like Graham and Gronk are highly valued commodities.

As for d line vs linebacker. Its easier to find consistent talent at linebacker than d-line imo and I think we are okay with Ellerbe and McClain and whoever we take/sign later if Suggs goes down. I dont think we will be okay on the d line if Ngata goes down with Mcphee Jones (who if an rfa after this year) and either Kemotherapy Mt.Cody or 7th rounder Deangelo Tyson.

We've seen great things from Deangelo Tyson in times that he has played.