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#1 dhstandard

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 11:54 AM

I was talking to some guys out at a tailgate and one of them was telling me how he read somewhere that the average time in the pocket for a qb is 3.5 seconds while Joe's average time is only 2. I see a big issue here. Joe is no Aaron Rodgers. He needs a good O-line to perform well. Most of the Elite 4 qb's have good O-lines.

Just look at the Steelers this year or even the Cardinals. When the Steelers O-line fell apart so did their offense even with their star receivers. The Cardinals have Larry Fitz and Michael Floyd but they can't even keep a qb healthy with their terrible O-line.


These guys are qb's in the NFL for a reason. Most of them can make throws if they have the time and the Elite are the ones who can really do more (reason why there are only 4 elite qb's in the past 15 years.) I think the biggest thing this off-season is to build up the offensive line. Oher is solid on the right side and Osemele would make a great guard as Jah Reid seems to be struggling and is a more natural tackle. Oher's mistakes won't be as horrible when they are made where Joe can actually see them.

I don't know where it's going to be the draft or in free agency but a new LT is a must this off-season.
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#2 redrum52

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:17 PM

I was talking to some guys out at a tailgate and one of them was telling me how he read somewhere that the average time in the pocket for a qb is 3.5 seconds while Joe's average time is only 2. I see a big issue here. Joe is no Aaron Rodgers. He needs a good O-line to perform well. Most of the Elite 4 qb's have good O-lines.

Just look at the Steelers this year or even the Cardinals. When the Steelers O-line fell apart so did their offense even with their star receivers. The Cardinals have Larry Fitz and Michael Floyd but they can't even keep a qb healthy with their terrible O-line.


These guys are qb's in the NFL for a reason. Most of them can make throws if they have the time and the Elite are the ones who can really do more (reason why there are only 4 elite qb's in the past 15 years.) I think the biggest thing this off-season is to build up the offensive line. Oher is solid on the right side and Osemele would make a great guard as Jah Reid seems to be struggling and is a more natural tackle. Oher's mistakes won't be as horrible when they are made where Joe can actually see them.

I don't know where it's going to be the draft or in free agency but a new LT is a must this off-season.


Kurt Warner was elite to me. I get what you're saying but it was also on Flacco not moving when there was a pocket. Say what you want about Brady but he creates opportunities by sensing pressure and moving at the right time. He honestly has or use to have some of the best pocket awareness I've seen. There were times it looked like he was going to be drilled but at the last moment would maneuver in the pocket to dodge the defender.
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#3 hawkprey

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:33 PM

Most coordinators organize plays like rollouts or draw plays to help the O-line out against pass rush. Cam refused to do that this year. But it's no surprise that he puts players in a position to fail.
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#4 TonyTone1192

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:34 PM

I agree with both statements. I've been telling some of our fans that have been bashing Joe on our 3 game slide that our offensive line is sub par. Unless your name is Ben Roethlisberger qb's need time to throw the ball and Joe has not had that on a consistent basis this year.

But to our o-line's defense Joe's pocket presence(before yesterday's game) has been sub par as well. Yesterday he looked pretty good in the pocket avoiding pressure. Hopefully he can maintain that level of play.
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#5 Corvus

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:54 PM

I agree with both statements. I've been telling some of our fans that have been bashing Joe on our 3 game slide that our offensive line is sub par. Unless your name is Ben Roethlisberger qb's need time to throw the ball and Joe has not had that on a consistent basis this year.

But to our o-line's defense Joe's pocket presence(before yesterday's game) has been sub par as well. Yesterday he looked pretty good in the pocket avoiding pressure. Hopefully he can maintain that level of play.


Hit the nail on the head. Our o-line has been very poor in pass protection all season, I look for us to replace Andy Moeller in the offseason, the whole unit has been subpar since Matsko was made a scapegoat at the end of '10, even though Gaither is the one who put the unit in a bad spot that year anyway. That said, we have all been disappointed in Joe's pocket awareness during the 3 game skid and there are times when its atrocious. He looked much better yesterday, including when he was pressured, so let's hope that continues into the playoffs.
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#6 Moderator 2

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:05 PM

The O line and all the shuffling has been an issue all year. Yanda back was a HUGE difference--- remember he did not play against Denver and he is a beast.
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#7 AsianRice

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:23 PM

The O line and all the shuffling has been an issue all year. Yanda back was a HUGE difference--- remember he did not play against Denver and he is a beast.

Yanda has been carrying the whole O-line this season; the problem is we need the rest play up to Yanda's level or at least closed to it. Birk is old or otherwise he will share the burden with Yanda.
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#8 reediddy

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:37 PM

How about the play of KO yesterday? Did we hear JPP's name called out at all? He was stonewalling the cat on a number of occasions. Huge performance from him
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#9 Ravensfan23

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 03:27 PM

Jaws made a good point on Mike & Mike is AM, although I don't always agree with him, his points always seem good and well thought out.

He spoke about how the offense, mainly the WRs, isn't that good surrounding Joe. He said because the WRs don't create a lot of separation, Joe is forced to throw a lot of stick throws that are tightly contested. I agree with this somewhat, i think the failure to use guys to their strengths is why the WRs don't seem talented. But he's definitely right about the separation.

Now look at the oline, who doesn't give Joe a lot of time. Well on of the reasons is, teams know that the WRs aren't getting open early so they can blitz and sit on routes. That's basically allowing a team to pin it's ears back and hunt.

Flacco has to improve his pocket awareness, but when you are consistently getting pressured and the WRs aren't creating separation, it's hard for a QB to stand tall and trust his guys to win. But at the same time, Flacco has to do a better job of staying true to his mechanics and be able to consistently deliver a accurate ball to those contested WR, because that's what he was asked to do.

Most times when Flacco is not accurate, it's because he sped up his mechanics. That could very well be a lack of trust issue with the oline. If the Ravens can sure up that LT position, I think that solves a lot with pass pro. I'll continue to say it, as simple as it sounds, Flacco is among the best when he's given time and able to throw to open WRs.
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#10 izvoodoo

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 03:58 PM

Jaws made a good point on Mike & Mike is AM, although I don't always agree with him, his points always seem good and well thought out.

He spoke about how the offense, mainly the WRs, isn't that good surrounding Joe. He said because the WRs don't create a lot of separation, Joe is forced to throw a lot of stick throws that are tightly contested. I agree with this somewhat, i think the failure to use guys to their strengths is why the WRs don't seem talented. But he's definitely right about the separation.

Now look at the oline, who doesn't give Joe a lot of time. Well on of the reasons is, teams know that the WRs aren't getting open early so they can blitz and sit on routes. That's basically allowing a team to pin it's ears back and hunt.

Flacco has to improve his pocket awareness, but when you are consistently getting pressured and the WRs aren't creating separation, it's hard for a QB to stand tall and trust his guys to win. But at the same time, Flacco has to do a better job of staying true to his mechanics and be able to consistently deliver a accurate ball to those contested WR, because that's what he was asked to do.

Most times when Flacco is not accurate, it's because he sped up his mechanics. That could very well be a lack of trust issue with the oline. If the Ravens can sure up that LT position, I think that solves a lot with pass pro. I'll continue to say it, as simple as it sounds, Flacco is among the best when he's given time and able to throw to open WRs.

Yeah we just can't beat man coverage.
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#11 Ravensfan23

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 06:17 PM

Yeah we just can't beat man coverage.


I think we can, it's just how are u trying to beat it. From a individual talent stand point, the Ravens don't have any studs at the WR position. However there are man beater routes you can run. However is all you run is curl, hooks and outs, the WRs aren't gonna get open because they aren't strong route runners.

However if you turn that 10 yard comeback route, into a In, Slant, stick, bang, out or a option route, it becomes tougher to defend because of the unpredictability of the route.

Now ever though a guy like Doss might not be a great route runner, he can beat his man to the inside, simply because got him to stop his feet at the top of the route. However if all you're doing is turning around and looking for the ball at the top of the route, it becomes easy to defend.

That's a big reason why the Ravens rarely get the benefit of a defensive holding or PI, because rarely do they even run routes that go away from defenders. So when they do run them and get held, it just looks like regular tight coverage. I'm not saying the WRs are great, but they definitely have big talent. They just have to be used in a way that maximizes it.
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#12 dhstandard

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 11:15 PM

Jaws made a good point on Mike & Mike is AM, although I don't always agree with him, his points always seem good and well thought out.

He spoke about how the offense, mainly the WRs, isn't that good surrounding Joe. He said because the WRs don't create a lot of separation, Joe is forced to throw a lot of stick throws that are tightly contested. I agree with this somewhat, i think the failure to use guys to their strengths is why the WRs don't seem talented. But he's definitely right about the separation.

Now look at the oline, who doesn't give Joe a lot of time. Well on of the reasons is, teams know that the WRs aren't getting open early so they can blitz and sit on routes. That's basically allowing a team to pin it's ears back and hunt.

Flacco has to improve his pocket awareness, but when you are consistently getting pressured and the WRs aren't creating separation, it's hard for a QB to stand tall and trust his guys to win. But at the same time, Flacco has to do a better job of staying true to his mechanics and be able to consistently deliver a accurate ball to those contested WR, because that's what he was asked to do.

Most times when Flacco is not accurate, it's because he sped up his mechanics. That could very well be a lack of trust issue with the oline. If the Ravens can sure up that LT position, I think that solves a lot with pass pro. I'll continue to say it, as simple as it sounds, Flacco is among the best when he's given time and able to throw to open WRs.



Most wide receivers don't get open in 2 seconds especially when Cam was consistently running deep routes while Joe got hit seemingly in the blink of an eye. You saw on Sunday when Joe has time the receivers are able to get open.
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#13 beasy2487

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 03:54 PM

I think the overall lesson is that the offensive playcaller has to scheme to his personnel. Cam did not do that, hopefully Sunday was the beginning of that changing for the better.
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#14 I AM LEGEND

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 12:37 AM

Not buying it...

Is the oline not that good....sure...I guess

However Flacco always has a way of holding on to the ball 0.01 longer than he should...this has benefited him at times and has done him in..

My point is Joes Pocket Awareness is in question and don't act like its not..so we can't say what he would do with any givin Oline.

And I've been saying for a while that for some strange reason..even tho its the best WR corp in Raven history (arguably) that its weird how much lack of separation there is...so maybe this I'm buying....but yet and still Flacco still has the best WR corp any Raven QB has ever had...


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#15 I AM LEGEND

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 12:38 AM

I think the overall lesson is that the offensive playcaller has to scheme to his personnel. Cam did not do that, hopefully Sunday was the beginning of that changing for the better.


This^^


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#16 Worthy

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 05:24 AM

I think the reason we don't see separation is because TEAMS know to play us bump and run! I believe the receiving corp is above par -- however we haven't established an "elite" type of receiver -- YET! I wish we had the cap space because I'd take Bowe from KC in a second when he becomes a free agent!

I believe we'll see more 3 step drops and more slants and going over the middle to help the offensive line. If we throw the ball deep, I believe it'll be on roll outs to give receivers more time for separation. I believe Caldwell recognizes the offensive line and it's problems and is game planning to help them!

I'm interested to see how much Tandon Doss has progressed as being that 3rd down, possession type of receiver. Perhaps we'll find out this week if Boldin rests his shoulder and Doss' ankle is better.

Edited by Worthy, 26 December 2012 - 05:25 AM.

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#17 dhstandard

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:11 PM

Not buying it...

Is the oline not that good....sure...I guess

However Flacco always has a way of holding on to the ball 0.01 longer than he should...this has benefited him at times and has done him in..

My point is Joes Pocket Awareness is in question and don't act like its not..so we can't say what he would do with any givin Oline.

And I've been saying for a while that for some strange reason..even tho its the best WR corp in Raven history (arguably) that its weird how much lack of separation there is...so maybe this I'm buying....but yet and still Flacco still has the best WR corp any Raven QB has ever had...



But one of the worst offensive lines. He may struggle with sensing pressure but most Qb's don't get pressured almost instantly after snapping the ball. Peyton Manning is one of the best if not the best when it comes to pocket presence and footwork but he still goes through most his progressions before needing to be worried about getting hit.

If you go to the games you can see Flacco going through his progressions as he did vs the Giants but that didn't happen in most of the other games. He would check the first two receivers and then needing to scramble.

What's even worse for Flacco is that he gets pressured from all sides. It's not one weak link on the line, but in a lot of games you'll see 2 or 3 guys getting that quick pressure.

Edited by dhstandard, 26 December 2012 - 09:13 PM.

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#18 Dudeman

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 01:46 AM

Good points all around guys.

But this is one of those subjects that IF someone knew the magic answer to each football X/O situation wouldn't be discussing it on a public forum. That equation my friends would earn you a lot of money, and a big time deal as a QB trainer extraordinare.

Luckily we got one in the building named Caldwell, and now he is the one helping Joe call the shots.

Now I am not going to sit here and say you gotta throw the book out because of Cameron and that none of Joe's faults are because of Joe. That just wouldn't be true, and some of the onus here really does fall on Joe.

But we've seen games where Joe scrambles around, and delivers that perfect strike on the run. We've seen those games where he feels the pressure, sidesteps the pass rush, and steps up in the pocket at the right time. We've also seen those games where he gets sacked, fumbles, or throws multiple picks. But that truly happens to every QB to have ever played.

There is that issue of time, consistency, pressure, footing, receiver seperation, etc as well. It's truly a witches brew of nasty little variables that you're supposed to be mindful of when a guy like Vince Wilfork is throwing around your center like he was a small child. This is simply one of those intangible things that is really impossible to quantify. How much time does Joe need in the pocket? As much time as it takes, and sometimes as much as he gets.

I will say though that the line play around here has been suspect at best lately, and has deteriorated to possibly being the teams weakest link. Also for the record, I don't really think the o-line has to be stuffed with first rounders to be great. Communication is the most critical part of the o-line group, and somehow all the last minute shuffling has finally caught up to them.

Inside pressure seems to have been a killer lately. Birk is serviceable, but the revolving door at left guard/tackle since Grubbs has been gone has left him exposed. Say what you will about Gaither, but the 08 line carried us to an AFC title match and that group was more commited to running the football. You eliminate a lot of scenarios of needing receiver seperation, time in the pocket, sacks, fumbles and interceptions just be choosing to run the ball.

So maybe I AM a little old school. But I do feel like we need to get back to running the football at least 55% of the time

Edited by Dudeman, 27 December 2012 - 01:47 AM.

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#19 Malkavian Raven

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 01:58 AM

Honestly, after last week, with all the short slants and under coverage routes being ran... I think Joe has plenty of time as long as we continue to use that scheme. As long as we're not trying to get 80-yards on every pass, we should be fine.

I will agree with The Dude here, there are way too many variables at play: o-line not blocking, Joe's awareness and ability to step up or run, WRs playing bump-and-run with defense, the playcalling, wind direction and speed, alignment of the planets, solar flare & quake watch...

All of that is important... OK, well, most of it anyway. And it all goes into one 5-second play.

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#20 jdynamite

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:35 AM

I was talking to some guys out at a tailgate and one of them was telling me how he read somewhere that the average time in the pocket for a qb is 3.5 seconds while Joe's average time is only 2. I see a big issue here. Joe is no Aaron Rodgers. He needs a good O-line to perform well. Most of the Elite 4 qb's have good O-lines.

Just look at the Steelers this year or even the Cardinals. When the Steelers O-line fell apart so did their offense even with their star receivers. The Cardinals have Larry Fitz and Michael Floyd but they can't even keep a qb healthy with their terrible O-line.


These guys are qb's in the NFL for a reason. Most of them can make throws if they have the time and the Elite are the ones who can really do more (reason why there are only 4 elite qb's in the past 15 years.) I think the biggest thing this off-season is to build up the offensive line. Oher is solid on the right side and Osemele would make a great guard as Jah Reid seems to be struggling and is a more natural tackle. Oher's mistakes won't be as horrible when they are made where Joe can actually see them.

I don't know where it's going to be the draft or in free agency but a new LT is a must this off-season.


I have some serious issues with this:

First, I have officially grown extremely iritated with the terms "Elite QB" which never was even mentioned within the media until a few years ago. Whatever happen to journeymen, Game manager, Pro Bowler, All Pro.
Since u said the elite 4 of the past 15 years. Who are you speaking about.

Because over the last 15 years (97-2012) could include : Warner, Brady, P.Manning, D.Brees, A.Rodgers, B.Favre, ( last couple years of Marino, Elway, S.Young ). Have had a number of great years in a row. Also P.Rivers recent struggles may have dropped him from the " elite status but for about 3 years he was ranked and regarded with Manning and Brady as a top passer.

How many seasons does the QB in question have to play great to be deemed Elite because Rich Gannon and Steve McNair also had a couple of stellar years in a row too and went to a Super Bowl a piece.

Now assuming your current elite 4 is P.Manning , A.Rodgers, Brady, D.Brees. While in Indy Peyton had a pathetic O-line only Jeff Saturday was good. Peyton just always got the ball out of his hands quick enough to avoid sacks but still took plenty of hits.

Rodgers O-line has been terrible for a few years has surrender the most sacks thus far through 16 weeks of football with one game left to play.
Brady has had more pro bowlers but also benefits from quicker pass plays to limit sacks.
Brees had a great interior line for years with average to above average Tackles blocking but also deliver the ball to avoid sacks quickly.

None of those QBs have O-lines like Troy aikmen had, or even the Oline Kurt Warner had in St.Louis. But Kurt had a pathetic Oline at Arizona and he took more sacks but also avoided plenty with pocket awareness to get rid of the ball.

Now in regards to Flacco and this team: under Cam Cameron too often there were no option routes, all of the WRs would run base routes such as Streaks, 10 yd Curl, comebacks, or outs allowing the defenders to basically sit on routes not giving Flacco any option to throw to other than dump off to Rice. There are times when Flacco does not read the defense well enough Pre-snap and he does not find a hot route to get the ball out of his hands quick enough thus taking an unnecessary sack ( similar to m.Vick whom doesn't seem to understand that throwing the ball away can save a play and limit hard hits ).

Sometimes the offense would not get set at the line of scrimmage with enough time to read the defense and make adjustments one of the reasons that the no-huddle was suppose to be preferred this season.

Our o-line does have subpar pass protection but there are times when a QB has to just get it out of his hands. Also Flacco along with many other QBs need to work on their pocket mobility - meaning ability to move with the pocket, sliding up, stepping into the pocket, moving to the right or left to avoid pressure to create that extra second. Big Ben does this great then he gets carried away, Brady is excellent at this also, A.Rodgers is similar to Big Ben he knows he can extend a play regardless of poor blocking and this overconfidence leads to extra sacks.

Edited by jdynamite, 27 December 2012 - 02:38 AM.

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