House Cleaning

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='awholelottahaloti' timestamp='1356145796' post='1273101']



Bingo! You've hit the nail on the head. We need to build the core, and everything else should fall in line. We're in pretty good shape at all other O positions and it would seem that Flacco would thrive if given some protection and a reliable run game.

As someone else mentioned, Yanda is our only real asset on the O line. Maybe Oher playing on the right.
[/quote]

I think its hard to just rule out KO as a asset. He's a rookie and could be hitting that rookie wall. I think it'll be tough to go into next season with Oher at LT, but it'll be hard to cut him as well. Ideally for me we sign a Brenden Alberts to a nice deal, his your LT, move KO to guard. If Oher isn't traded, he's your RT or he Reid and a rookie compete.

I think that'd be a pretty good oline. Not sure what Gino has.

[Malkavian Raven]

[quote name='awholelottahaloti' timestamp='1356145796' post='1273101']
Bingo! You've hit the nail on the head. We need to build the core, and everything else should fall in line. We're in pretty good shape at all other O positions and it would seem that Flacco would thrive if given some protection and a reliable run game.

[b]As someone else mentioned, Yanda is our only real asset on the O line. Maybe Oher playing on the right.[/b]
[/quote]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]And I honestly can't stand Belichick, but I do respect what he has done for New England. He TRULY understands the game and how it should be played.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]I said the same thing in the "Cleaning House" thread; if Oher could stay on that right-side, he would be worth keeping. Yanda is the only guy I see who was holding his own. Some of the younger guys, I wouldn't sell them out just yet but they still need to prove their readiness.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]~ Cosmic[/i][/font]

[dhstandard]

[quote name='Free Agent' timestamp='1356138369' post='1273008']
We pay him a lot, and use him a little. Especially if the offense is being geared towards a spread pass-first offense, there is little need for a traditional fullback.

Personally, I love the guy and I wish we could keep him around, but he's not worth what we are paying him and I doubt he'd take a pay cut.
[/quote]

What? We use him all the time in the run game and pass game. I think he is one of the most crucial aspects to the team in that regards as you need to be able to pass as well as run out of the I Formation.
Secondly, A major part of it is whoever takes over as OC. If you have a guy like Norv Turner then Vonta 100% stays. Get a OC who wants to run mainly 3-5 WR sets with draws to Ray Rice (which would be a terrible idea) then he will probably get cut.


He WON'T get cut. Also Boldin will probably come back at a reduced salary. He is smart enough to know that vets like him don't preform well when switching to other teams this late in their career.

[jdynamite]

How much house cleaning can actually be done. The defense has had plenty of young players playing all year and that inexperience has also shown.

Basically Ray, Ed, Kemo, Ayanbadejo are only defensive people over 30 I think.
So many players with little nfl starting experience playing heavy minutes. Then to have so many injuries on defense to wear our 4th & 5th ILBs are playing.

The Oline was thought to be before the season the oldest position but McKinnie never played, Bobbie Williams ( should have never played since Harewood played better than him ). I'm all for Birk going because he can barely block anyone infront of him. Oher has hit his ceiling already IMO, he's serviceable at RT good run-blocker.

The only way we enter a rebuilding mode is if we trade some players for extra draft picks. Surely can't rebuild with a draft pick in 20+ range.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1356146717' post='1273113']


What? We use him all the time in the run game and pass game. I think he is one of the most crucial aspects to the team in that regards as you need to be able to pass as well as run out of the I Formation.
Secondly, A major part of it is whoever takes over as OC. If you have a guy like Norv Turner then Vonta 100% stays. Get a OC who wants to run mainly 3-5 WR sets with draws to Ray Rice (which would be a terrible idea) then he will probably get cut.


He WON'T get cut. Also Boldin will probably come back at a reduced salary. He is smart enough to know that vets like him don't preform well when switching to other teams this late in their career.
[/quote]

Why is that a terrible idea? The Ravens have offensive weapons, but they are no good to anyone while standing on the sidelines

[dhstandard]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1356148352' post='1273126']
Why is that a terrible idea? The Ravens have offensive weapons, but they are no good to anyone while standing on the sidelines
[/quote]

Isn't he in for at least more than half the snaps? He is a vital asset even though he doesn't play as often. His salary isn't that much considering what he brings to the table. It's game theory. We save a couple million by cutting him but lose a ton of production for what? A backup player?

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1356150153' post='1273139']


Isn't he in for at least more than half the snaps? He is a vital asset even though he doesn't play as often. His salary isn't that much considering what he brings to the table. It's game theory. We save a couple million by cutting him but lose a ton of production for what? A backup player?
[/quote]

But the same can be said on the opposite. I'm a huge fan of Leach first off, but the question will have to be asked, just how important is he to the new offense. Like you said, all depends on OC.

Either Caldwell or the new OC will ask, can i get more out of the offense using guys like Jones, Doss, Reed and Dickson, then i could using Leach primarily? How many different matchups can i create with the weapons i have to play with and can my RBs have success running the ball once i spread defenses out. That will be the question for the OC.

If you can force the defense to play matchup games, you can also force them to defend the run with 5-6 man fronts instead of 7-8 men in the box. Leach would still have a role because you'll still us the FB for power running at times. However are you willing to pay him as much with a diminished role.

Like Ray Lewis said, it's not a I-formation league anymore and the Ravens have to change with the times. It's time to allow guys like Jones, Doss, Dickson, Reed, LQW and Thompson to start consistently helping this offense win.

[flaccopoe]

I wonder who on the offensive line, if anyone, will be axed at the end of the season. Seems inevitable that someone will be leaving after their subpar performances this season.

[The Raven]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1356140739' post='1273041']
I would trade Harbs for Belechick and thats it
[/quote]

Don't be foolish. I'd trade Harbs for a few guys... Including his brother, as brash as he is.

[Greatness]

[quote name='CalvinSmoke' timestamp='1356146417' post='1273109']
A great O-line and D-line wins championships. Football is all about the trenches
[/quote]

Thread should be closed after this correct answer.

[J-man]

Unless we can find someone to replace them, cutting players won't make us better.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='flaccopoe' timestamp='1356151935' post='1273160']
I wonder who on the offensive line, if anyone, will be axed at the end of the season. Seems inevitable that someone will be leaving after their subpar performances this season.
[/quote]

Much like Cam, I think most of the assistant coaches were giving one year deals. I can easily see the coach getting axed and most of the young olineman stay.

What is taught is just as important as what skills the players have. You see the same issues show up each season, regardless of different players, so it leads me to believe they are getting coached up by the best

[flaccopoe]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1356164233' post='1273236']
Much like Cam, I think most of the assistant coaches were giving one year deals. I can easily see the coach getting axed and most of the young olineman stay.

What is taught is just as important as what skills the players have. You see the same issues show up each season, regardless of different players, so it leads me to believe they are getting coached up by the best
[/quote]

It goes without saying a lot of assistant coaches on both sides of the ball will be getting the boot, especially if the Ravens fizzle out in the playoffs. However, the players must also be held accountable, for they are the ones who must actually execute the plays. In some ways, the offensive line is the most crucial part of the offense. The quarterback, receivers and backs depend on them to be able to run smooth plays. Without proper blocks up front, your score-makers end up getting smashed, like Skelton and Lindley in Arizona.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1356150153' post='1273139']


Isn't he in for at least more than half the snaps? He is a vital asset even though he doesn't play as often. His salary isn't that much considering what he brings to the table. It's game theory. We save a couple million by cutting him but lose a ton of production for what? A backup player?
[/quote]if we are talking about leach he plays around 30 percent of the teams snaps. In fact there has only been 6 games where he's played over 50 percent of the snaps.

He's not worth his contract because he isn't on the field enough. He's overpaid there is no ifs or buts about it

[Guest Mr. Nobody]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1356172746' post='1273252']
if we are talking about leach he plays around 30 percent of the teams snaps. In fact there has only been 6 games where he's played over 50 percent of the snaps.

He's not worth his contract because he isn't on the field enough. He's overpaid there is no ifs or buts about it
[/quote]

the problem here is not the pay leach gets, it's the playing time he doesn't. we need him involved more and more - in passing game and better running routes where rice or pierce to follow on through the gaps he makes

[Gordo52]

I remember hearing this on there, my response was laughter.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='horus13corvineus' timestamp='1356176144' post='1273269']


the problem here is not the pay leach gets, it's the playing time he doesn't. we need him involved more and more - in passing game and better running routes where rice or pierce to follow on through the gaps he makes
[/quote]if he's on the field the percentage of snaps he is he is over paid. Period. He's paid twice as much as any other fullback in the league for as much snaps. He's overpaid anyway, he's grossly overpaid for the amount of time he is on the field.

[Tank 92]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1356146537' post='1273111']
I think its hard to just rule out KO as a asset. He's a rookie and could be hitting that rookie wall. I think it'll be tough to go into next season with Oher at LT, but it'll be hard to cut him as well. Ideally for me we sign a Brenden Alberts to a nice deal, his your LT, move KO to guard. If Oher isn't traded, he's your RT or he Reid and a rookie compete.

I think that'd be a pretty good oline. Not sure what Gino has.
[/quote]
[quote name='CosmicRedPanda' timestamp='1356146567' post='1273112']
[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]And I honestly can't stand Belichick, but I do respect what he has done for New England. He TRULY understands the game and how it should be played.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]I said the same thing in the "Cleaning House" thread; if Oher could stay on that right-side, he would be worth keeping. Yanda is the only guy I see who was holding his own. Some of the younger guys, I wouldn't sell them out just yet but they still need to prove their readiness.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]~ Cosmic[/i][/font]
[/quote]


I don't think we give up on KO and Reid, definitely potential there. But priority 1 should be finding the LT this line needs so badly. I don't think we know enough about Gino to say he is our center, but Birk(God bless him!) is done.

I hope the younger guys step up beginning this weekend. Maybe they prove their worth and simplify the O line "rebuild".

[Tank 92]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1356176616' post='1273271']
if he's on the field the percentage of snaps he is he is over paid. Period. He's paid twice as much as any other fullback in the league for as much snaps. He's overpaid anyway, he's grossly overpaid for the amount of time he is on the field.
[/quote]


My view is biased here(luvs me some Nosebleed!), but Vonta is a beast and is definitely not overpaid. I think we need to find a way to keep him and look for more ways to use his talents. He is a Raven through and through and a huge asset to the Team.

[Desert]

[quote name='awholelottahaloti' timestamp='1356179881' post='1273283']
My view is biased here(luvs me some Nosebleed!), but Vonta is a beast and is definitely not overpaid. I think we need to find a way to keep him and look for more ways to use his talents. He is a Raven through and through and a huge asset to the Team.
[/quote]
I agree....
Leach and Pollard are two Raven's that play every down of Football, the epitome of "Play Like A RAVEN"

[TonyTone1192]

There would be no need for that if we do happen to go one and done. Because, we've had success in the past 5 seasons.

Yeah, we might have to change our approach to things and get back to establishing a grind-it-out mentality that I believe we've lost... but a "house cleaning" pshh give me a break.

5 playoff appearance in the past 5 seasons NO OTHER team is in that category with us. Our coaching staff and players are safe.

[rmw10]

I don't think we'll necessarily "clean house," but I do think we'll see a higher roster turnover than usual. We're just so tight against the cap that we'll have to go to cheaper alternatives and cut some guys that a lot of us don't want to see go. Unfortunately, it's a business.

[Militant X 1]

i want Ozzie to stop trading back in the draft so much to get these cheaper players (cost wise) and to move up if necessary to get "the best" player "needed" at a skilled position.

~Mili

[Free Agent]

[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1356146717' post='1273113']
What? We use him all the time in the run game and pass game. I think he is one of the most crucial aspects to the team in that regards as you need to be able to pass as well as run out of the I Formation.
Secondly, A major part of it is whoever takes over as OC. If you have a guy like Norv Turner then Vonta 100% stays. Get a OC who wants to run mainly 3-5 WR sets with draws to Ray Rice (which would be a terrible idea) then he will probably get cut.


He WON'T get cut. Also Boldin will probably come back at a reduced salary. He is smart enough to know that vets like him don't preform well when switching to other teams this late in their career.
[/quote]

My bad, I should've clarified. In a new offensive system we'd use him little. Cam definitely put Leach to use in our current offense.

Unless we bring over Norv Turner as you said, I don't see us implementing an offensive system similar to Cam's which utilizes Leach. In all likelihood, the new offense will involve lots of passing and not as much power running. In such an offense, an h-back similar to Aaron Hernandez would prove much more useful.

As I said, I want us to keep him around. He's a beast who truly plays like a Raven. However, he is being paid a ton of money for a fullback, [url="http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/2013/cap-hit/fullback/"]he's taking up nearly 4.5 million in cap space in 2013[/url], and I dont think we'd use him nearly as much in our new offense.

[PurpleCityLights]

[quote name='CosmicRedPanda' timestamp='1356137298' post='1273000']
[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]Offense:
QB: The reality is this: like him, love him or hate him -- he'll back for a 2013, either franchised or a new contract. The Ravens aren't letting him hit the open market without a better option available to them.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]RB: Rice, can't say that I'm overly impressed. Especially considering he was just paid a ton of money and he's about to have his worst year as a RB (save for his rookie season). If he's not careful, Pierce could take the starting job away from him. I know it sounds impossible, but Pierce has a 1/3 of the carriers and 1/3 of the yards as Rice. (Rice 4.48 yds per carry / Pierce 4.44 yds per carry --- yes, I had to out two decimal places.)[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]FB: Leach's job is a complete mystery, depending on what kind of team the Ravens want to be in the near future. If the Ravens want to remain a smashmouth, run-first type team; then I think he'll be brought back.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]WR: We had a consistent #1 in Boldin. We've now got a consistent #2 in Smith. Everything else is a carousel. Will Boldin be brought back? I believe so.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]TE: We're solid. Pitta & Dickson are going nowhere at this point.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]OL: Honestly, I don't see a reason to keep any of the starters, save for Yanda. Sorry Oher, and it's not his fault, but if he could just STAY on the right-side he'd be fine. It's just bound to happen, he'll always wind up watching Joe's blindside and we've all seen how well he is at doing that.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]Defense:[/i][/font]
[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]MLB: As much as I love Ray, the words he spoke in the Byrne interview pretty me sold me on the fact that he's not coming back next season. Is McClain our guy? Hard telling. Bynes, the fact I had to look up his name should speak for itself. Honestly, not sure what we're going to do here.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]OLB: Sizzle, if he stopped worrying about what Skip was saying and he stayed healthy, he is still a premier OLB. Kruger, this guy has really impressed me when his number is called. Him & Sizzle side-by-side for an entire season would be monstrous. As for McClellan, Bynes and McClain; I think you start fishing for talent in the draft or free agency.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]S: Reed started out hot this season but was merely a flash in the pan. Sure he comes up with an INT every once in awhile, but not near premier as he used to be. Webby, nuff said. Just stay healthy. Pollard is personification of this team, just needs to stay healthy as well. Other than that, not sure who else you'd keep.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]CB: I think we need balance here. We seem a little young. I think a free agent vet that could make a big impact and coach up these younger guys would be a tremendous help.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]Special Teams:[/i][/font]
[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]K: Tucker more than proved himself from the word "go" this off-season, training camp, pre-season and regular season. It's time to see how clutch he really is as I'm sure we're going to need his leg in January and hopefully February.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]P: Koch, is there really any question.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]Returner: Oh that's right, we may not need one after this season...[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]Those are my thoughts.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]~ Cosmic[/i][/font]
[/quote]

Wow you talk about everybody else's problems but Joe, so I'll help you.

QB- like him or love him Joe's an average qb with a learning disability. His fifth year and he still doesn't step up in to the pocket and he over throws like crazy . Truth of the matter is if we dont have the best O-line and best WRers he can't carry this team like other QBs in the NFL cause other good qbs make everybody else better around him Joe does not.

I Forgot he needs a top 10 D to step in and save the day from him going 3and out 5 times a game.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='flaccopoe' timestamp='1356164528' post='1273237']


It goes without saying a lot of assistant coaches on both sides of the ball will be getting the boot, especially if the Ravens fizzle out in the playoffs. However, the players must also be held accountable, for they are the ones who must actually execute the plays. In some ways, the offensive line is the most crucial part of the offense. The quarterback, receivers and backs depend on them to be able to run smooth plays. Without proper blocks up front, your score-makers end up getting smashed, like Skelton and Lindley in Arizona.
[/quote]

No doubt about that. It's a healthy balance between, talent and great coach to get a guy to raise his talent is level. The bad part for coaches, is that you often times won't get rid of a full unit.

The Ravens traded up for Reid last year and I'm sure they wanna see him continue to develop. Both KO and Gino are rookies who you can't give up on. Oher brings value as a RT who can fill in at LT in a pinch, so i'm not sure you can let him walk, unless you greatly improve the LT position and think KO is a better RT then LG.

I think the older guys are gone, Birk might stay for that vetrean presence. However Yanda is fully capable of leading this unit. Also I think the Ravens need to attack the LT position, Albert is the guy i'd like.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='PurpleCityLights' timestamp='1356195172' post='1273477']


Wow you talk about everybody else's problems but Joe, so I'll help you.

QB- like him or love him Joe's an average qb with a learning disability. His fifth year and he still doesn't step up in to the pocket and he over throws like crazy . Truth of the matter is if we dont have the best O-line and best WRers he can't carry this team like other QBs in the NFL cause other good qbs make everybody else better around him Joe does not.

I Forgot he needs a top 10 D to step in and save the day from him going 3and out 5 times a game.
[/quote]
Joe certainly isnt an elite QB, but you forget a lot more than you think. Like that little caveat that our defense has been atrocious this year yet we somehow have made the playoffs yet again. Im sure Joe has nothing to do with that according to you.

He's a good QB that has been asked to do a lot in a system that doesnt put him in position to succeed. That's not an excuse, it's reality.

FYI there is only one QB in the league that "carries" his team despite a terrible Oline.

[nextgen_RavensFan]

[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1356176266' post='1273270']
I remember hearing this on there, my response was laughter.
[/quote]

Mine was shock. Not sure if they can gauge the coaching staff while a lot of our players are on the sidelines. I have gripes against Harbs and Pees but in the end Pees has improved a lot and seemingly Harbs finally grew a pair and let Cam go. If tha trend continues and Harbs speaks up when things need to be changed i will not have a problem with him. He just needs to leave no misunderstandings as to whoo is in charge and when he says change things you just do it. If Pees keeps scheming like he has i am very happy, he did a lot with zero talent last week for an entire half and i was impressed. So i do not think the coachs need to go but i do think most of the Vets do. We all see Ellerbe is better on the field than Ray Lewis. We have all seen Reed mis tackle after tackle. and it looks like we are a throw first run second team so even Leach is expendable. What i do not understand is Boldin might go ? He is our best receiver (i did not say fastest i said best) as he fights for the ball, he blocks and he loves going across the middle (which by the way we need to do more).

[PurpleCityLights]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1356202225' post='1273599']

Joe certainly isnt an elite QB, but you forget a lot more than you think. Like that little caveat that our defense has been atrocious this year yet we somehow have made the playoffs yet again. Im sure Joe has nothing to do with that according to you.

He's a good QB that has been asked to do a lot in a system that doesnt put him in position to succeed. That's not an excuse, it's reality.
[/quote]

So when we lose this next game because of a fumble or INT at the worst time by Joe Flacco what will you say?

NO ONE SAID JOE WAS ELITE, no one but himself lol......

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='awholelottahaloti' timestamp='1356179545' post='1273279']




I don't think we give up on KO and Reid, definitely potential there. But priority 1 should be finding the LT this line needs so badly. I don't think we know enough about Gino to say he is our center, but Birk(God bless him!) is done.

I hope the younger guys step up beginning this weekend. Maybe they prove their worth and simplify the O line "rebuild".
[/quote]

I don't think we can give up on Harewood either. The big fella show some potential at LG and I think you give him the chance to compete. As for Gino, i think you allow Justin Boren to compete with him there. Other then Yanda, no oline position should be locked up.