How much should we pay Flacco?

[mhead66]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1356132267' post='1272942']
Well, he probably meant career numbers. It's unfair to compare Joe's numbers to Eli's since 2008. Obviously Eli's would be better. 2008 was Joe's rookie year, but Eli was coming off a Superbowl win.

If you look at [u]career numbers[/u], Joe has a higher career QB rating. His QB rating this season is also higher than Eli's.

I like the way you skewed the numbers by saying since 2008...
[/quote]
Well - obviously - I used 2008 since that was the year Flacco started.

Eli's career QBR is 82.3, which IS below Flacco's... but - fair or not - teams take Super Bowl wins into consideration, when they determine a QBs worth. I personally think that's unjust, because you can't necessarily judge a QB by his team's success.

But... every single nationally televised Ravens game, the announcers say that Flacco has taken the Ravens to the playoffs every year of his 5 year career... and that's basically saying the same thing - giving credit to a player for a team's performance... so it just isn't slanted in Eli's case.

[mhead66]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1356132690' post='1272948']
A contributing factor to that is the vertical style of offense he plays in. I believe someone posted that he's completed 70 percent of his passes within 10 yards.
[/quote]

It's difficult to hold a player accountable for the system he's forced to operate in - teams that run the quick slant West Coast offense will always have a higher completion percentage, but you can't blame the QB, when you ask him to throw consistently deeper, if that's your Offense, and he completes less passes.

One stat I find interesting: Over the last 5 years, only 4 QBs have finished in the top 10 in QB rating each of the 5 years, 2008-2012: Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning (skipping '11), Tom Brady and... Matt Schaub. Interesting.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='mhead66' timestamp='1356132408' post='1272943']
Vick's career completion % is 56.3 %... which IS horrible.

Flacco had a 57.6% last year, 26th in the NFL. This year, it's 59.1% - 23rd in the league.

Flacco's career: 60.5% - which is about the league's average.

Another reason I say he's an average Joe.
[/quote]

One stat doesnt tell the whole story my friend.

[mhead66]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1356132607' post='1272947']
After looking at those stats, Joe has a bit of leverage over Ozzie. His numbers are virtually identical to Eli's. Eli is making 15 million... I don't want to give him that, but that's about what Joe's market value is. He doesn't have Eli's hardware though. That's the only difference between them. Eli has two rings.
[/quote]
Stats or no stats, I can't see Flacco's agent saying he deserves to be paid in the top 4 in the NFL... I don't think anyone thnks he's in that class. He can want $15 Mil per year, but I think he'll be disappointed, if he holds out for that much.

I'm interested to see what Rodgers signs for... you think Flacco waits, to see if Rodgers sets a new ceiling?

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='mhead66' timestamp='1356131846' post='1272933']
If you examine the NFLs QB in terms of QB ratings, Flacco has been middle of the road - average - since he entered the NFL. He's currently ranked 14th in the NFL in QBR. Over his 5 year career, he has been ranked:

2008: 22nd
2009: 13th
2010: 7th
2011: 18th
2012: 14th

As an average QB, he deserves a contract that's "average." Logical.

Looking at some NFL QBs' salaries:

1. Peyton - 18.8 M
2. Vick - 16.0 M
3. Brady - 15.7 M
4. Eli - 15.3 M
5. Rivers - 14.0 M
6. Schaub - 13.2 M
7. Roethlisberger - 12.8 M
8. Sanchez - 11.7 M
9. Ryan - 11.0 M
10. Palmer - 10.8 M

Since I certainly don't think Flacco has earned "elite" money, I don't think he deserves to be paid a top-5 salary... if he deserves a top 10 salary, we're talking 10.8 Million/ Year - something like 6 years for $65 Million. If he insists on $15 Million per year, let him test the market... I don't think he'll find too many takers, at that price.
[/quote]

You really think he'll take less than Marc Sanchez?

[mhead66]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1356133152' post='1272954']
One stat doesnt tell the whole story my friend.
[/quote]
True, but I think completion percentage is a pretty fair indicator... as The Raven accurately pointed out, your style of offense will affect that measure... but Kyle Boller had a 55% in college, and he had a 55% for his career. I think it's fair to say he's less accurate, in hitting receivers in the hands, then the average QB... and the stats prove it. He's never had a 65%+ season.

That's why I lean toward QB ratings, which take YPA, TD%, INT% and completion percentage into account.

[nextgen_RavensFan]

I would say it depends on the play offs but i am not a Flacco fan right now. We need him to carry the team the next 2 games and i am not sure he can so i would just be fair and try to see just how many games he has won for us verses the times he has failed and rate the wins and losses from there. I do think around 12 to 13 would be fair on his play from this season. But if we lose the next 2 where he needs to show up and carry the load it would drop down to between 10 and 12 mill.

[mhead66]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1356133346' post='1272957']
You really think he'll take less than Marc Sanchez?
[/quote]
You can't tell Ozzie that because the JetsJetsJets were fools, our FO should be fools, too. The Jets also traded for Tebow... which says a lot about the Jets... But, no - I think Flacco will get 12-13 per year, IMO... because some of the lower yearly figures were signed 3-4 years ago, and prices will always rise.

But one player - especially an overpaid scrub like Dirty Sanchez - doesn't determine the market. I just wonder if Sanchez will have an NFL job next year... Perhaps if he takes less money, but the Jets won't keep him for $11 M per year - they'll take the hit, or tradde him.

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1356132607' post='1272947']
After looking at those stats, Joe has a bit of leverage over Ozzie. His numbers are virtually identical to Eli's. Eli is making 15 million... I don't want to give him that, but that's about what Joe's market value is. He doesn't have Eli's hardware though. That's the only difference between them. Eli has two rings.
[/quote]
You can argue that the defense won him his first championship. I mean holding that Pats 2007 offense to 14 points was no joke. As for the second. well Flacco hasnt gotten to 7 years in the league yet so yea.

[mhead66]

[quote name='nextgen_RavensFan' timestamp='1356133678' post='1272962']
I would say it depends on the play offs but i am not a Flacco fan right now. We need him to carry the team the next 2 games and i am not sure he can so i would just be fair and try to see just how many games he has won for us verses the times he has failed and rate the wins and losses from there. I do think around 12 to 13 would be fair on his play from this season. But if we lose the next 2 where he needs to show up and carry the load it would drop down to between 10 and 12 mill.
[/quote]
Even though it's an emotional topic, I don't think it's fair to judge Flacco's contract offer on only 2 games - look at last year's Champ Game - Flacco had a great game, but Lee Evans dropped one pass - if something similar would happen, and we'd lose both over a fluke, you can't necessarily hold Flacco completely responsible - you have to look at his body of work.

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='mhead66' timestamp='1356132774' post='1272950']
Well - obviously - I used 2008 since that was the year Flacco started.

Eli's career QBR is 82.3, which IS below Flacco's... but - fair or not - teams take Super Bowl wins into consideration, when they determine a QBs worth. I personally think that's unjust, because you can't necessarily judge a QB by his team's success.

[b]But... every single nationally televised Ravens game, the announcers say that Flacco has taken the Ravens to the playoffs every year of his 5 year career... and that's basically saying the same thing - giving credit to a player for a team's performance... so it just isn't slanted in Eli's case.[/b]
[/quote]
On this stat, Flacco is the reason we made each of the past 5 years. I mean in 2006 we had the best defense we have ever had and we were a first round exit. 2007 we missed it and that was basically the story of the Ravens. Occasional appearance but never going anywhere. When we got Flacco we have consistently not only made it to playoffs but one won game every year. Given the history you cant credit that to the D, or the o-line as they were there before and some even better than before and we missed playoffs. The only thing that really changed was qb.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='mhead66' timestamp='1356133721' post='1272963']
You can't tell Ozzie that because the JetsJetsJets were fools, our FO should be fools, too. The Jets also traded for Tebow... which says a lot about the Jets... But, no - I think Flacco will get 12-13 per year, IMO... because some of the lower yearly figures were signed 3-4 years ago, and prices will always rise.

But one player - especially an overpaid scrub like Dirty Sanchez - doesn't determine the market. I just wonder if Sanchez will have an NFL job next year... Perhaps if he takes less money, but the Jets won't keep him for $11 M per year - they'll take the hit, or tradde him.
[/quote]

He's not the only one though. Kolb has an awful contract too. And Philip Rivers gets paid more than that as well. It's just really hard to price quarterbacks

[mhead66]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1356135588' post='1272988']
He's not the only one though. Kolb has an awful contract too. And Philip Rivers gets paid more than that as well. It's just really hard to price quarterbacks
[/quote]

It IS hard to predict future performance. Look at Matt Flynn - Seattle won the bidding war to sign him this offseason, and he'll be watching Russell Wilson for the rest of his contract, barring injury. Rivers has fallen off, but he signed the contract in '08, and in '08 he was the highest rated QB in the NFL - 105.5. He was 3rd in the NFL in '09, with a 104.4, so he's definitely got the talent - I think the team has crumbled around him, to an extent.

Kolb was similar to Flynn - he played well as the #2 QB for a few games, and everyone fell in love with his potential; I was listening to 105.7 this week, and callers were suggesting that the Ravens trade a 1st round draft pick to the Pats* for their backup, Ryan Mallett - who's had a few good mop-up efforts, and looked good in preseason. Mallett was a 3rd rounder, and I think there's ZERO chance the Ravens are interested.

It IS hard to compare QBs - some teams have better OLines or better receivers, some teams run a short-pass offense... so many variables. However, the FO has had 5 years of watching Flacco, so I think Ozzie has a ballpark figure in his mind, and won't break the bank. I sure would like to know what that range is... and I'm sure Flacco's agent would, too...

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='mhead66' timestamp='1356136114' post='1272990']
It IS hard to predict future performance. Look at Matt Flynn - Seattle won the bidding war to sign him this offseason, and he'll be watching Russell Wilson for the rest of his contract, barring injury. Rivers has fallen off, but he signed the contract in '08, and in '08 he was the highest rated QB in the NFL - 105.5. He was 3rd in the NFL in '09, with a 104.4, so he's definitely got the talent - I think the team has crumbled around him, to an extent.

Kolb was similar to Flynn - he played well as the #2 QB for a few games, and everyone fell in love with his potential; I was listening to 105.7 this week, and callers were suggesting that the Ravens trade a 1st round draft pick to the Pats* for their backup, Ryan Mallett - who's had a few good mop-up efforts, and looked good in preseason. Mallett was a 3rd rounder, and I think there's ZERO chance the Ravens are interested.

It IS hard to compare QBs - some teams have better OLines or better receivers, some teams run a short-pass offense... so many variables. However, the FO has had 5 years of watching Flacco, so I think Ozzie has a ballpark figure in his mind, and won't break the bank. I sure would like to know what that range is... and I'm sure Flacco's agent would, too...
[/quote]
It's not his quality. It's the QB market

[mhead66]

[quote name='Sizzlebshu' timestamp='1356134330' post='1272970']
On this stat, Flacco is the reason we made each of the past 5 years. I mean in 2006 we had the best defense we have ever had and we were a first round exit. 2007 we missed it and that was basically the story of the Ravens. Occasional appearance but never going anywhere. When we got Flacco we have consistently not only made it to playoffs but one won game every year. Given the history you cant credit that to the D, or the o-line as they were there before and some even better than before and we missed playoffs. The only thing that really changed was qb.
[/quote]
I think every Ravens fan realizes Flacco was the missing piece - after years of Stoney Case and Elvis, Kyle Boller and Tony Banks, Scott Mitchell and Anthony Wright (and yes, I remember them all ) he was the last ingredient, to fielding a competitive team. No doubt, the most consistent QB in our short history...

However... like Mike Preston pointed out recently, you wonder how high Flacco's ceiling is. I don't think he'll ever be a top-5 QB - I'm not sure he has the complete package - but he's certainly good enough for the Ravens to win a Super Bowl, even multiple Super Bowls. He doesn't need to pass for 5000 yards and 40 TDs to be a complete player - look at Alex Smith last year, or Eli Manning, or Roethlisberger in the Steelers' 2005 Super Bowl - Flacco can get it done. It's just a question of how much value you're willing to expend... and, no matter all the doubters, I think there's a 0% chance Joe Flacco is in another uniform, for the years to come.

[mhead66]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1356136202' post='1272991']
It's not his quality. It's the QB market
[/quote]
To an extent - do you think the FO will play hardball with Flacco, and give him a hard limit - say, $12.5 Million, take-it-or-leave-it?

The guys on 105.7 were talking about this, wondering how many NFL teams would pay Joe Flacco more than $13 Million to go to their team. I think they settled on only a couple of possibilities - like the Cardinals, the JetsJetsJets, and maybe Kansas City. Not many teams will dump their experienced starter or abandon their young up-and-coming QB to bring Flacco in - even teams like Jacksonville (with Gabbert), Tennesee (Locker) or Philthydelphia (Foles) may hesitate.

You think anyone will make him a serious offer, outside of Baltimore?

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='mhead66' timestamp='1356137114' post='1272997']
To an extent - do you think the FO will play hardball with Flacco, and give him a hard limit - say, $12.5 Million, take-it-or-leave-it?

The guys on 105.7 were talking about this, wondering how many NFL teams would pay Joe Flacco more than $13 Million to go to their team. I think they settled on only a couple of possibilities - like the Cardinals, the JetsJetsJets, and maybe Kansas City. Not many teams will dump their experienced starter or abandon their young up-and-coming QB to bring Flacco in - even teams like Jacksonville (with Gabbert), Tennesee (Locker) or Philthydelphia (Foles) may hesitate.

You think anyone will make him a serious offer, outside of Baltimore?
[/quote]
Honestly I think if Kansas city had him and Ngata they'd be better than us. No lie.

[frank21054]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1356132690' post='1272948']
A contributing factor to that is the vertical style of offense he plays in. I believe someone posted that he's completed 70 percent of his passes within 10 yards.
[/quote]

How many of those are 2 or 3 yard dump offs?

[Ravenfanatic22]

for all u flacco lovers out there saying sign him for more than 3 years ur crazy.. lets see what ur opinion is after this season once we blow these last 2 games and are 1 and done in the playoffs.. joe doesnt have the IT factor and never will

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='mhead66' timestamp='1356136631' post='1272993']
I think every Ravens fan realizes Flacco was the missing piece - after years of Stoney Case and Elvis, Kyle Boller and Tony Banks, Scott Mitchell and Anthony Wright (and yes, I remember them all ) he was the last ingredient, to fielding a competitive team. No doubt, the most consistent QB in our short history...

However... [b]like Mike Preston pointed out recently, you wonder how high Flacco's ceiling is. [/b] I don't think he'll ever be a top-5 QB - I'm not sure he has the complete package - but he's certainly good enough for the Ravens to win a Super Bowl, even multiple Super Bowls. He doesn't need to pass for 5000 yards and 40 TDs to be a complete player - look at Alex Smith last year, or Eli Manning, or Roethlisberger in the Steelers' 2005 Super Bowl - Flacco can get it done. It's just a question of how much value you're willing to expend... and, no matter all the doubters, I think there's a 0% chance Joe Flacco is in another uniform, for the years to come.
[/quote]
Flacco's ceiling is a top 5 qb. Physically he has all the tools, but mentally he still needs to develop. That part is what you need a good qb coach and good offensive coordinator for. We saw Flacco developing rapidly with Zorn and then we saw this growth stunted for 2 years when Zorn was fired. Essentially setting Flacco two years back.

What this tells me is that Flacco has the ability to improve mentally and learn, but like any student, he needs a good and compatible teacher to teach him.

[JO_75]

From Rotoworld, The Ravens are expected to Franchise Tag Joe Flacco if they can not come to a deal before February.

How much is the Franchise Tag worth because that's how much we will most likely pay him.

http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/252048/ravens-expected-to-franchise-tag-joe-flacco

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1356143996' post='1273085']
From Rotoworld, The Ravens are expected to Franchise Tag Joe Flacco if they can not come to a deal before February.

How much is the Franchise Tag worth because that's how much we will most likely pay him.
[/quote]

14.5 million is what the tag is worth and fwiw roto isnt reporting anything new. We are obviously not gonna let Flacco go.

[jaege]

[quote name='mhead66' timestamp='1356131846' post='1272933']
If you examine the NFLs QB in terms of QB ratings, Flacco has been middle of the road - average - since he entered the NFL. He's currently ranked 14th in the NFL in QBR. Over his 5 year career, he has been ranked:

2008: 22nd
2009: 13th
2010: 7th
2011: 18th
2012: 14th

As an average QB, he deserves a contract that's "average." Logical.

Looking at some NFL QBs' salaries:

1. Peyton - 18.8 M
2. Vick - 16.0 M
3. Brady - 15.7 M
4. Eli - 15.3 M
5. Rivers - 14.0 M
6. Schaub - 13.2 M
7. Roethlisberger - 12.8 M
8. Sanchez - 11.7 M
9. Ryan - 11.0 M
10. Palmer - 10.8 M

Since I certainly don't think Flacco has earned "elite" money, I don't think he deserves to be paid a top-5 salary... if he deserves a top 10 salary, we're talking 10.8 Million/ Year - something like 6 years for $65 Million. If he insists on $15 Million per year, let him test the market... [b]I don't think he'll find too many takers, at that price[/b].
[/quote]


There is the problem. It seems like the fans are not considering where other teams sit. WE might not think he is worth that much (because WE are spoiled by 4 years of solid success) but other teams, teams that have not gone to the playoffs for 5 years straight, or at all in the last 5 years, teams who are not getting crushed by the salary cap, teams with buckets of money left to spend, those teams WILL pay and pay big for a proven playoff QB. Look around. There are NO decent QBs available. None. But there are 20 some odd teams that want one. They do not want an elite QB, they would happily take a middling QB that can win 9 or so games a year. And if we let Flacco test the market we will be one of those teams that are scrambling for anything to toss the ball.

Then where will WE be? Sitting at the bank with an untried rookie QB that hasn't had 20 snaps in his career.

[Brandon22]

A Five Year Ninety five million dollar contract

[1/28/01]

[quote name='Brandon22' timestamp='1356150123' post='1273138']
A Five Year Ninety five million dollar contract
[/quote]

Dude, your posts are crazy!

[Brandon22]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1356150369' post='1273140']
Dude, your posts are crazy!
[/quote]i was play n wat u think we should give him

[1/28/01]

[quote name='Brandon22' timestamp='1356150743' post='1273143']
i was play n wat u think we should give him
[/quote]

Tag him at the $14.5M and prove his worth with a new OC next year.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='Brandon22' timestamp='1356150743' post='1273143']
i was play n wat u think we should give him
[/quote]
Give him a Sanchez deal. Can you at least improve the spelling and grammar? My head hurts, and I am on break....

[The Raven]

[quote name='Brandon22' timestamp='1356150123' post='1273138']
A Five Year Ninety five million dollar contract
[/quote]

Is that what you gave him in Madden?

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='mhead66' timestamp='1356137114' post='1272997']

To an extent - do you think the FO will play hardball with Flacco, and give him a hard limit - say, $12.5 Million, take-it-or-leave-it?

The guys on 105.7 were talking about this, wondering how many NFL teams would pay Joe Flacco more than $13 Million to go to their team. I think they settled on only a couple of possibilities - like the Cardinals, the JetsJetsJets, and maybe Kansas City. Not many teams will dump their experienced starter or abandon their young up-and-coming QB to bring Flacco in - even teams like Jacksonville (with Gabbert), Tennesee (Locker) or Philthydelphia (Foles) may hesitate.

You think anyone will make him a serious offer, outside of Baltimore?
[/quote]if flacco leaves here, or hit the open market he wouldn't be back unless he really wanted to stay here. He's easily get upward of 15 mill.