How much should we pay Flacco?

[frank21054]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1356023467' post='1271713']
Tag. He needs one more year to prove he deserves an elite contract
[/quote]

If he gets tagged he gets ELITE pay status haha

[frank21054]

I think if Joe only cares about the money let him go elsewhere. If he wants to win, he needs to leave money on the table. Offer 4 year 52 million with a team option and escalators that allow him to make up the perceived value he believes he is worth tied into Pro Bowls and playoff wins.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1356034069' post='1271945']


Aside from Brees & Matt Schaub, rest of those 5 players you mentioned will be forced to take a pay cut or be dumped.

Alot of those bad teams took a big hit taking a big risk in FA. They wont repeat that move again so they'll draft a fresh QB.

So those values really don't dictate what Flacco's contract will be next year.
[/quote]that doesn't matter. If they don't play up to their contract so be it. The value is still set. Chris Johnson didn't play up to his value but do you think it didnt play a huge part on setting rices values. Your clueless if you think it doesn't.

Drew brees contract won't affect it, that's like comparing a smart phone to one that's not. But all the other smart phones value will, whether they are over priced or not, the market is dictated by the others on the market.

And those contracts are the other comparable contracts. The most comparable would be Eli manning, however I think his was too long ago.

[Alexir]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1356028957' post='1271831']

The problem with the Franchise Tag is it greatly hinders the ability to sign other players. I think the FO knows what they have in Flacco and want to keep him long term. Its just a matter of working out the details.
[/quote]

I disagree, I don't think they know what they got in Flacco.

[Alexir]

[quote name='frank21054' timestamp='1356041976' post='1272097']


If he gets tagged he gets ELITE pay status haha
[/quote]

For one year

[gabefergy]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1356047435' post='1272168']
I disagree, I don't think they know what they got in Flacco.
[/quote]
I disagree. I think it's just the fans who are skeptical.

[ravens247365]

[quote name='bMore Heathen' timestamp='1356033231' post='1271915']
The telling stat imo is completion percentage. Last year and this year he's right around 50. That's not elite...
[/quote]

Not sure if you meant 60%?

[The Raven]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1356047660' post='1272174']
I disagree. I think it's just the fans who are skeptical.
[/quote]

I see both sides. I don't know if they know yet. If they did, I think he may have a contract by now.

They sure do have a better view of him than we do. The "haters" always say how Joe doesn't make good reads, audibles, protection calls, etc... The coaching staff knows way more about that than we do.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='bMore Heathen' timestamp='1356033231' post='1271915']
The telling stat imo is completion percentage. Last year and this year he's right around 50. That's not elite...
[/quote]

50? Yeah, dont think so.

[display name]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1356051725' post='1272214']
50? Yeah, dont think so.
[/quote]
More like 60. Still not elite.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1356050801' post='1272200']
I see both sides. I don't know if they know yet. If they did, I think he may have a contract by now.

They sure do have a better view of him than we do. The "haters" always say how Joe doesn't make good reads, audibles, protection calls, etc... The coaching staff knows way more about that than we do.
[/quote]

Well according to Adam Schefter the two sides were basically in agreement at the end of the offseason, but there was still a few issues and Linta decided to back out. The Ravens have clearly put forth every indication that they are happy with Joe and see him as their Franchise QB.

[frank21054]

[quote name='ravens247365' timestamp='1356048385' post='1272182']
Not sure if you meant 60%?
[/quote]

That competition percentage is Michael Vick territory.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='frank21054' timestamp='1356052177' post='1272224']
That competition percentage is Michael Vick territory.
[/quote]
no 50% is Michael Vick territory. 60% is about league average, lower than it should be but not terrible considering the vertical style of offense.

[The Raven]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1356052104' post='1272223']
Well according to Adam Schefter the two sides were basically in agreement at the end of the offseason, but there was still a few issues and Linta decided to back out. The Ravens have clearly put forth every indication that they are happy with Joe and see him as their Franchise QB.
[/quote]

Ah, gotcha. Didn't hear that report.

Not liking this Linta guy!

[Alexir]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1356047660' post='1272174']

I disagree. I think it's just the fans who are skeptical.
[/quote]

What makes you that?

[gabefergy]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1356054054' post='1272248']
What makes you that?
[/quote]
You know, just everything that has come out of the Front Office. The fact that they were basically done with the contract negotiation before the season even started. There was an offer on the table and Linta backed out thinking he can get more for Flacco after this season. I don't think his plan worked from a financial standpoint, but nothing I have seen would suggest the Ravens have even given a second of hesitation to making Flacco the longterm answer at QB.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1356057187' post='1272285']

You know, just everything that has come out of the Front Office. The fact that they were basically done with the contract negotiation before the season even started. There was an offer on the table and Linta backed out thinking he can get more for Flacco after this season. I don't think his plan worked from a financial standpoint, but nothing I have seen would suggest the Ravens have even given a second of hesitation to making Flacco the longterm answer at QB.
[/quote]
Bleacher Report has us taking Barkley instead of keeping Joe. BARKLEY! Smh

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1356052400' post='1272227']
no 50% is Michael Vick territory. 60% is about league average, lower than it should be but not terrible considering the [b]vertical style of offense.[/b]
[/quote]

Glad someone pointed it out.

[Alexir]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1356057187' post='1272285']
You know, just everything that has come out of the Front Office. The fact that they were basically done with the contract negotiation before the season even started. There was an offer on the table and Linta backed out thinking he can get more for Flacco after this season. I don't think his plan worked from a financial standpoint, but nothing I have seen would suggest the Ravens have even given a second of hesitation to making Flacco the longterm answer at QB.
[/quote]

Im very confident that after this year, he will be tagged. It is known that the offense took a huge step back, the front office will not give the money Joe's agent wants until he proves he is worth it. They will give him one more year with a new offensive coordinator. They just cant afford to over pay a QB that isn't really showing above average talent at this time.

[calculator]

IMO if the tag number is around 17million then thats alot of money that we will be taking from other areas of need to pay Joe when NOBODY here can prove that Joe will suceed better with better tools around him.We need defensive help and O line help etc...Better to give Joe a contract with incentives again imo

[burnell]

Look at Flacco's 1st half stats from several games:
Hou: 7-20, 62yds, saftey, 2 Int's, 1 fumb.
Den: 8-18, 77 yds, 1 fum, 1 Int
KC: 6-16, 61 yds
home Pitt: 10-21, 106 yds, 1 int, 1 TD
SD: 8-18, 44yds
I would be willing to pay whatever Charlie Batch is paid for those stats.

[ellicottraven]

Anything more than 10-12 M a year will be a travesty and will make Joe Flacco smile all the way to the bank. But, there is a bit of megalomania coached into Flacco by his agent! His agent has Flacco believing he is the best QB in the league and Flacco has bought into it hook, line and sink! If only he performed that way we would not be having this conversation.

I think a lot depends on how we do in the playoffs. If Flacco's struggles continue and is the reason we lose in the playoffs, I don't know how much we pay him.... Realistically, we have little choice but to continue with Flacco, and that totally sucks. We won't have a top draft pick and even if we did, I don't know if this year's crop of QBs are that good anyway. The top 2-3 may actually be better than him, but we can't get them unless we pull off a 'Dan Snyder'! So the only option would be to franchise tag Flacco for another year and see how it goes with a brand new coordinator. But, the price tag of 18 M for Flacco is going to burn a big hole in the Ravens' salary cap pants! So we are screwed if we do and screwed if we don't!

I really think we need to sign him to a contract if he is willing to accept 10-12M per year, but then immediately put him on notice by providing competition for him with either a high draft pick or a really good veteran like an Alex Smith or Matt Flynn. If he continues his inconsistent play and also his sad lack of pocket awareness, then we cut him the following year and move on....

[gabefergy]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1356096352' post='1272481']


Im very confident that after this year, he will be tagged. It is known that the offense took a huge step back, the front office will not give the money Joe's agent wants until he proves he is worth it. They will give him one more year with a new offensive coordinator. They just cant afford to over pay a QB that isn't really showing above average talent at this time.
[/quote]

I understand that, but the Tag absolutely kills our cap. Basically you are saying the FO will tag Joe because after 5 years they still dont have enough faith in him to offer a fair deal all the while ignoring other massive needs on the team. Now if Joe or his agent whatever is demanding 15M+ per year I can see them not relenting, but if Joe is willing to come down to the 13-14M a year range there is no way that offer isnt on the table.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='burnell' timestamp='1356101828' post='1272507']
Look at Flacco's 1st half stats from several games:
Hou: 7-20, 62yds, saftey, 2 Int's, 1 fumb.
Den: 8-18, 77 yds, 1 fum, 1 Int
KC: 6-16, 61 yds
home Pitt: 10-21, 106 yds, 1 int, 1 TD
SD: 8-18, 44yds
I would be willing to pay whatever Charlie Batch is paid for those stats.
[/quote]you can't cherry pick stats like that.

He's 12th in yards, 15 tds, 14th interceptions for people with over 200 attempts, 20 completion percentage, clearly not helped by throw the most deep balls in the league. 13 QB rating.

That's a perfectly average year for him. In an outdated system, if his completion percentage was up to just above 60 he'd be in the top 10 in rating wise because that's a huge proponent of QB rating.

You can't cherry pick stats from half a few games, or even the last three games and make a decision on that. You take in past experience, all of it, and try and pay him based on what you expect going forward! That's how you make a good business decision.

If you think he will carry on at this level, pay him based on the other deals for the average ish quarterbacks which I posted earlier, in an around 12 to 14 million. If you think he's going to get worse, either don't sign him or try and get him 10 or less. If you think he's going to explode under a new oc, and system pay him 14 plus.

Frankly, average around 13 14 with incentives for wins primarily, Super Bowl, play offs etc, then his own personal stats, like completin percentage, tds, yards, rating to bring him up to 17 18 etc.

[mhead66]

[quote name='Sizzlebshu' timestamp='1355966222' post='1271146']
I am not suffering from that, and I cant speak for the rest of people, but if you look at the market for QBs is going to force us to overpay Flacco. Flacco doesnt deserve 14 million. Has he won games? Y[b]ea of course, but his numbers are about the same as Eli's only slightly better (Eli's are terrible outside of last year btw)[/b]. For the record, Eli didnt deserve his contract but a superbowl win + having the last name Manning got him his.

Likewise, flacco doesnt derserve a huge contact. He hasn't put up elite numbers or even consistency with certain numbers, but the market says a qb like that is now worth 15 million (because other qbs were grossly overpayed cough Brees cough).

If you put relate positions to cap and players value at that position to the cap (how much of a team's cap a qb is worth, and how good of a qb is Flacco and how much of the cap should he account for), Flacco is not worth 15 million or 12.5% of our cap when Peyton who is one of the best of all time is only worth 15% of the team's cap. He just has not been that good and extra money that is forced to go to him, could actually net us a player that can help him and us a lot.

Again this is not Flacco's fault, other teams have grossly inflated the market for QB's, and as a result we will be forced to pay Flacco more than he is actually worth, but Flacco's production doesn't balance out the % of cap he will be paid.

Thats what I feel upsets people about Flacco.
[/quote]

If you look at QB ratings, since 2008 when Flacco entered the league, Joe has a 85.98 QB Rating. Eli Manning has a 88.34 QBR. Just for the record.

[mhead66]

If you examine the NFLs QB in terms of QB ratings, Flacco has been middle of the road - average - since he entered the NFL. He's currently ranked 14th in the NFL in QBR. Over his 5 year career, he has been ranked:

2008: 22nd
2009: 13th
2010: 7th
2011: 18th
2012: 14th

As an average QB, he deserves a contract that's "average." Logical.

Looking at some NFL QBs' salaries:

1. Peyton - 18.8 M
2. Vick - 16.0 M
3. Brady - 15.7 M
4. Eli - 15.3 M
5. Rivers - 14.0 M
6. Schaub - 13.2 M
7. Roethlisberger - 12.8 M
8. Sanchez - 11.7 M
9. Ryan - 11.0 M
10. Palmer - 10.8 M

Since I certainly don't think Flacco has earned "elite" money, I don't think he deserves to be paid a top-5 salary... if he deserves a top 10 salary, we're talking 10.8 Million/ Year - something like 6 years for $65 Million. If he insists on $15 Million per year, let him test the market... I don't think he'll find too many takers, at that price.

[The Raven]

[quote name='mhead66' timestamp='1356131261' post='1272927']
If you look at QB ratings, since 2008 when Flacco entered the league, Joe has a 85.98 QB Rating. Eli Manning has a 88.34 QBR. Just for the record.
[/quote]

Well, he probably meant career numbers. It's unfair to compare Joe's numbers to Eli's since 2008. Obviously Eli's would be better. 2008 was Joe's rookie year, but Eli was coming off a Superbowl win.

If you look at [u]career numbers[/u], Joe has a higher career QB rating. His QB rating this season is also higher than Eli's.

I like the way you skewed the numbers by saying since 2008...

[mhead66]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1356052400' post='1272227']
no 50% is Michael Vick territory. 60% is about league average, lower than it should be but not terrible considering the vertical style of offense.
[/quote]

Vick's career completion % is 56.3 %... which IS horrible.

Flacco had a 57.6% last year, 26th in the NFL. This year, it's 59.1% - 23rd in the league.

Flacco's career: 60.5% - which is about the league's average.

Another reason I say he's an average Joe.

[The Raven]

After looking at those stats, Joe has a bit of leverage over Ozzie. His numbers are virtually identical to Eli's. Eli is making 15 million... I don't want to give him that, but that's about what Joe's market value is. He doesn't have Eli's hardware though. That's the only difference between them. Eli has two rings.

[The Raven]

[quote name='mhead66' timestamp='1356132408' post='1272943']
Vick's career completion % is 56.3 %... which IS horrible.

Flacco had a 57.6% last year, 26th in the NFL. This year, it's 59.1% - 23rd in the league.

Flacco's career: 60.5% - which is about the league's average.

Another reason I say he's an average Joe.
[/quote]

A contributing factor to that is the vertical style of offense he plays in. I believe someone posted that he's completed 70 percent of his passes within 10 yards.