Has this team quit on Harbaugh?

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1355713362' post='1266515']
Harbaugh may not be calling plays on either side of the ball but would he really be a HC if he didn't know his Xs and Os?
[/quote]

The performance of his team over his tenure is a testament that he doesn't.

[The Raven]

[quote name='display name' timestamp='1355713169' post='1266502']
You should be our coach.
[/quote]

Dawww. I'm touched.

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1355713362' post='1266515']
Harbaugh may not be calling plays on either side of the ball but would he really be a HC if he didn't know his Xs and Os?
[/quote]

He knows less than others. I'd like to have a guy who knows more about strategy. Harbs puts too much faith in his coordinators, as we saw with Cam.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1355713706' post='1266534']
The performance of his team over his tenure is a testament that he doesn't.
[/quote]

Are you insane? If we're going strictly by performance (record, post-season trips, home record, etc.), it would actually suggest he does.

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1355713740' post='1266536']
He knows less than others. I'd like to have a guy who knows more about strategy. Harbs puts too much faith in his coordinators, as we saw with Cam.
[/quote]

True. I agree with all of that. Do you want him canned if the season ends the way it's looking like it might (bounced in the first round of the play-offs) though?

[The Raven]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1355714226' post='1266566']
Are you insane? If we're going strictly by performance (record, post-season trips, home record, etc.), it would actually suggest he does.



True. I agree with all of that. Do you want him canned if the season ends the way it's looking like it might (bounced in the first round of the play-offs) though?
[/quote]

Eh. I'm iffy on it. Harbaugh has done a great job with the team, but we can't be blind to possible upgrades. I don't really want to get rid of him, but if we replaced him with Gruden I wouldn't be the least bit upset.

I heard a rumor that Bisciotti wants to clean house. Not a reputable source though.

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1355714226' post='1266566']
Are you insane? If we're going strictly by performance (record, post-season trips, home record, etc.), it would actually suggest he does.
[/quote]

Not wins, performance. They're two different things.

[Bravens292]

the thing that annoys me most is harbaugh making losses not feel so bad. at least ed reed came out and said it was embarassing. thats how you should act. thats how you send your players a message. the way he acts toward losses makes the players feel a loss isn't so bad when it should be. when you listen to a harbs press conference during a loss, you get the feeling we won.

[The Raven]

[quote name='Bravens292' timestamp='1355714597' post='1266612']
the thing that annoys me most is harbaugh making losses not feel so bad. at least ed reed came out and said it was embarassing. thats how you should act. thats how you send your players a message. the way he acts toward losses makes the players feel a loss isn't so bad when it should be. when you listen to a harbs press conference during a loss, you get the feeling we won.
[/quote]

Coach speak.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1355714453' post='1266592']
Eh. I'm iffy on it. Harbaugh has done a great job with the team, but we can't be blind to possible upgrades. I don't really want to get rid of him, but if we replaced him with Gruden I wouldn't be the least bit upset.

I heard a rumor that Bisciotti wants to clean house. Not a reputable source though.
[/quote]

Agreed again.

We'll see if he does but cleaning house would only go so far. The team is most need in of some key players improving next year and and a draft where multiple players make an early impact.

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1355714560' post='1266605']
Not wins, performance. They're two different things.
[/quote]

But they're not unrelated. This isn't college football where you blow out a fair amount of teams on your schedule. The team wouldn't have the record it's compiled with Harbaugh at the the helm if they weren't performing relatively well, often.

[Free Agent]

There was no quit in Dennis Pitta at least.

[ravefan52]

[quote name='Raving_Heathen' timestamp='1355701188' post='1265548']
This team has never been Harbaugh's. It's always been Ray Lewis and Ed Reed's team.

I still don't know what John Harbaugh brings to the table or why anyone (particularly future HoFers) would respect him as a HC or respect what he has to say. He's had the incredible luxury of inheriting a team with tremendous defensive talent and has ridden the coat tails of success. Now that the team is in seeming free-fall, we'll see what kind of coaching he can really do. A good start would be for him to stop wasting valuable 2nd half TOs with incredibly stupid challenges.
[/quote]
We have people up in the box(who sees the replay) that tell Harbaugh whether to challenge it or not. Either their giving him bad information or Harbaugh doesn't listen to them which would be really dumb.

[Gordo52]

[quote name='bmoreboy02' timestamp='1355702465' post='1265626']
I agree 100% that harbaugh inherited a highly talented team. People always uze this teams record and playoff games as a defense for harbaugh and flacco when people say bad things about them. The pkint i[b]s harbaugh and flacco had nothing to do with tbe success of this team the last 4 years.[/b] Ed reed, ray lewis, terrell suggs, haloti ngata ladarius webb and jared johnson were the reasons for our success. Harbaugh is not a very good head coach and i think we made a huge mistake letting rex ryan go. Yea rex isnot doing so good in new york but i think with the guys we have here and the system rex had in place here rex would of did alot with this team
[/quote]
Had nothing to do with our success? REALLY! smh! Harbs hasn't been the best coach, but to be head coach of a team thats made the playoffs the last 5 years I think he's had a little something to do with that. Flacco for damn sure. We wouldn't of had anywhere near the success we've had over the last 4 years without him!

[Gordo52]

Look, I don't want him to be our Andy Reid, but Harbs deserves to stay as long as we're serious contenders. (of course as mentioned above I wouldn't be the least upset if it was for Gruden). lol

[Gordo52]

[quote name='Raving_Heathen' timestamp='1355701188' post='1265548']
This team has never been Harbaugh's. It's always been Ray Lewis and Ed Reed's team.

I still don't know what John Harbaugh brings to the table or why anyone (particularly future HoFers) would respect him as a HC or respect what he has to say. He's had the incredible luxury of inheriting a team with tremendous defensive talent and has ridden the coat tails of success. Now that the team is in seeming free-fall, we'll see what kind of coaching he can really do. [b]A good start would be for him to stop wasting valuable 2nd half TOs with incredibly stupid challenges.[/b]
[/quote] I agree with this part.

But you said he inherited a great defense(which I agree with) but It doesn't matter who you got on your team, if you can't coach right you won't win games.When Mike Singletary coached the 49ers he basically had the same exact defense as the current one. Well he couldn't do crap with it, now look at em. I know Harbs doesn't coach the defense but by saying he's only ridden the coat tails of success I think is wrong. It's not just about player personnel, but it's mostly how they're coached. Theres a reason why Billick was fired and theres a reason why we've had success since then.

[FerrariFan87]

For all the good John has done with this team, he's gotta be in the Top 3 in terms of worst clock/timeout managers as well as in uses of challenges. Who are the guys buzzing down to him to challenges some of these plays? They should get fired too...

[Gordo52]

Man, we've ben one of the most injured team this year. Our age is catching up with us. We're tight against the cap. How is any of this Harbs fault? He's not the best in game HC, or the best decision maker regarding challenges and keeping Cam so long but I don't see how we can blame him here.

Only thing I have against him is keeping Cam to long and making stupid challenges

[Bltravens]

[quote name='CosmicRedPanda' timestamp='1355713694' post='1266531']
[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]Buddhist? No. I'm a metaphysical individual. And it is not absurd to think that your words and actions carry with them so form of responsibility. Perhaps another way to explain this is by asking if you've ever coached children? As a coach, I've learned kids are prone to listening to positive feedback than negative.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]You take a child, surround him with a couple dozen naysayers and see how well he performs against a child surrounded by a couple dozen supporters.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]It is easy to 'quit' and 'give up' on yourself, when you feel everyone has turned their backs on you already. The fans, the analysts, the critics and the media all turned their backs on the Ravens prior to them even getting on the field this week. Am I saying we are directly responsible? No. But negative energy will result in negative consequences.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]You think it was hard for them to be motivated for this game? Wait until next week.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]~ Cosmic[/i][/font]
[/quote]
I have, but with coaching kids its a direct link to them. They feed off everything you do. The Ravens are not impacted by what fans do all over the world. Prime example, 2000 Ravens, everyone and their mothers hated Baltimore but that didn't stop them from playing well. Nobody thought we could win games, the media hated us and yet we still won games. The whole year was how one dimensional the team was and they couldn't win games with Dilfer, only a game manager. Still won.

Pro athletes have feelings yes, but to think there is some type of effect on them if us goons on a message board think they're going to get clobbered is not exactly realistic in my eyes.

They're pro athletes, if they get sad each time the national media and fans write them off then they're playing the wrong game.

[RicknRoll]

No I don't think so. We have massive injuries which makes things look very bad. However I do believe there is very little respect for the DB Coach, Cary williams seemed lost in the Redskin game and now the Bronco game. The players are human and have personal thoughts and feelings about things they are not going to talk about to the media.
Everyone can see that Harbaugh is putting his personal feelings before the good of the team by keeping McKinnie who is our best Left tackle on the bench. The O-Line has been mis-aligned because of it and thier play shows it. Our best line up is Mckinnie at left tackle, Osemele at left Guard, Burk Center, Yanda (Williams for Yanda)-right Guard and Oher at right Tackle. But Harbs don't care because he is ticked off with McKinnie for some reason. Think the rest of the team don't know it? Meanwhile Flacco is taking a lot of blame and it's not all his fault.

[CTSxViper]

I don't believe they have quit on Harbaugh. But we have so many injuries, and with Flacco's poor performance, it's pretty depressing. But hey look at the Steelers, they are in worse shape then us. We still have a chance here to turn this around.

[flaccopoe]

Never thought I'd see all this Harbaugh-bashing... I guess people needed another scapegoat for the banged-up Ravens' woes now that Cam Cameron's gone.

[bauer77]

I'll support Harbaugh as long as he keeps taking us to the playoffs, but the stupid challenges/timeouts are ridiculous. They need to stop. They cost us the Steelers game, and i'm sure they've cost us others, i'm too tired to look right now. lol.

If we do end up cleaning house, i want someone that will get in the players faces and yell at them, a Gruden, Coughlin, Parcells type of coach. Someone who will bench the star player when they get a attitude or make a stupid play or something.The players will respect that, and that will go a long way. I know it will take some getting used to as fans, cause we've never had that here before. But it needs to happen (if we do clean house).

Like i said, i'll support Harbs as long as he's here and doing well. So don't take this the wrong way.

[Malkavian Raven]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1355716896' post='1266787']
I have, but with coaching kids its a direct link to them. They feed off everything you do. The Ravens are not impacted by what fans do all over the world. Prime example, 2000 Ravens, everyone and their mothers hated Baltimore but that didn't stop them from playing well. Nobody thought we could win games, the media hated us and yet we still won games. The whole year was how one dimensional the team was and they couldn't win games with Dilfer, only a game manager. Still won.

Pro athletes have feelings yes, but to think there is some type of effect on them if us goons on a message board think they're going to get clobbered is not exactly realistic in my eyes.

[b]They're pro athletes, if they get sad each time the national media and fans write them off then they're playing the wrong game.[/b]
[/quote]

[i][size=4][font=trebuchet ms', helvetica, sans-serif]I will agree with this point.[/font][/size][/i]

[i][size=4][font=trebuchet ms', helvetica, sans-serif]This squad isn't the 2000 Ravens though (sadly). That squad had the "us against the world" mentality, and rather than letting it get them down, they decided to spit in the face of the world. The squad we have this year, not sure what it is in their heads, but they do take what people are saying to heart. Ed even admitted to it in the presser after the game.[/font][/size][/i]

[quote]"It hits you in your heart when you lose three straight and you had an opportunity to close our your division the last three weeks. It's terrible. [b]It's what all you guys have been saying about us right now. Regardless of us not listening to it or not worrying about it, it's just been the truth.[/b] [b]We've just acted on it to come out and lose today.[/b]" (Source BaltimoreSun)[/quote]

[i][size=4][font=trebuchet ms', helvetica, sans-serif][color=#292727]Whether they're listening to it or not, they are hearing it and what they choose to do with that negative energy is their choice, and by the sounds of things -- their undoing. Can't have 'lose' in your heart.[/color][/font][/size][/i]

[i][size=4][font=trebuchet ms', helvetica, sans-serif][i][color=#292727]~ Cosmic [/color][/i][/font][/size][/i]

[arnie_uk]

If we are clearing out players like ed ray boldin birk. Would now not be the best time to clean house coaching staff wise? Even give de coasta Ozzies job.

Do it all in one year instead of implementing change gradually. Just take one hit like after the cap purge in 02 I think.

[dirtybird10]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1355754711' post='1267477']
If we are clearing out players like ed ray boldin birk. Would now not be the best time to clean house coaching staff wise? Even give de coasta Ozzies job.

Do it all in one year instead of implementing change gradually. Just take one hit like after the cap purge in 02 I think.
[/quote]

No, I don't see how you fire your entire staff over a playoff bound winning season. Was it underwhelming... yes although the end result still remains to be seen. Ozzie will probably not leave until he decides to leave. Harb's is going to have to at least have a losing season before his job is at stake IMO. I think the topic of this team quitting is a major stretch. As banged up as this team is, and as under performing as this offense has been this season. Its no wonder they are not playing better.

[GrimCoconut]

First of all, has the team quit on Harbaugh? Wow. I am at a loss. Our defense is decimated with injury & on top of that we lost a few important starters. When you couple that with the realization that we lost a few key players from injury before the season began & also to free agency you have what we have today--a very young defense that lost its veteran leadership in a few key areas. I'm not excusing them because we still have Lewis, Ngata, Reed who should be leaders.

We do have a problem on this team. I am not sure what it is, but to me it appears to be discipline. Our defense does not seem disciplined. That needs to be fixed.

We also need a new strength & conditioning coach. The injuries we have been plagued with this year are ridiculous.

Finally, to prove the point about the Ravens not giving up on Harbaugh: they still play, try to play, and want to play. I am not seeing them giving up on Harbaugh, I see the defense giving all it has to win the game and an offense that continues to frustrate. I see what I saw before--a defense upset with an inept offense.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1355760936' post='1267615']
First of all, has the team quit on Harbaugh? Wow. I am at a loss. Our defense is decimated with injury & on top of that we lost a few important starters. When you couple that with the realization that we lost a few key players from injury before the season began & also to free agency you have what we have today--a very young defense that lost its veteran leadership in a few key areas. I'm not excusing them because we still have Lewis, Ngata, Reed who should be leaders.

[b]We do have a problem on this team. I am not sure what it is, but to me it appears to be discipline. Our defense does not seem disciplined. That needs to be fixed.

We also need a new strength & conditioning coach. The injuries we have been plagued with this year are ridiculous.[/b]

Finally, to prove the point about the Ravens not giving up on Harbaugh: they still play, try to play, and want to play. I am not seeing them giving up on Harbaugh, I see the defense giving all it has to win the game and an offense that continues to frustrate. I see what I saw before--a defense upset with an inept offense.
[/quote]

The D has far more issues than just a lack of discipline.

Are you serious? Numerous teams around the league have a rash of injuries every year. A new strength and conditioning coach wouldn't change that in the least.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1355761560' post='1267635']
The D has far more issues than just a lack of discipline.

Are you serious? Numerous teams around the league have a rash of injuries every year. A new strength and conditioning coach wouldn't change that in the least.
[/quote]
I can't pinpoint every problem the team has, but discipline sure seems to be a big part of it. I never claimed that was the only issue with this team, the be-all and end-all of issues we have. It's obviously not. But what do you say is the problem when we get bone-headed penalties that are clearly penalties and yet we commit them anyway? That's a lack of discipline.

That was merely the only real issue with the team I can even pinpoint right now because all the other problems seem to be muddled in a myriad of mistakes.

As for the strength & conditioning coach, it's well documented every team has injuries, but come on. How many people do we have on this team who are injured/keep getting injured? We have a lot. I don't have the time to research how many of our players are injured, but please tell me who leads the league in injuries. I'd really like to know. Cody & Kemo both appear to be getting their backs on the ground frequently. Let's also throw Jah Reid into that equation as well. Ngata has not looked good at all this year and is not playing at the level you would expect him to play. Yeah, we have an issue with our training staff. I'm not excusing the players, it's their fault as well.

[The Raven]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1355760936' post='1267615']
First of all, has the team quit on Harbaugh? Wow. I am at a loss. Our defense is decimated with injury & on top of that we lost a few important starters. When you couple that with the realization that we lost a few key players from injury before the season began & also to free agency you have what we have today--a very young defense that lost its veteran leadership in a few key areas. I'm not excusing them because we still have Lewis, Ngata, Reed who should be leaders.

We do have a problem on this team. I am not sure what it is, but to me it appears to be discipline. Our defense does not seem disciplined. That needs to be fixed.

We also need a new strength & conditioning coach. The injuries we have been plagued with this year are ridiculous.

Finally, to prove the point about the Ravens not giving up on Harbaugh: they still play, try to play, and want to play. I am not seeing them giving up on Harbaugh, I see the defense giving all it has to win the game and an offense that continues to frustrate. I see what I saw before--a defense upset with an inept offense.
[/quote]

We've had the same strength and conditioning guy since John got here and we've never had big problems with injuries...

[berad]

Did you hear the players pressers / tweets? They're mimicking what Harbaugh is saying. They've hit a rough patch, yes, but I don't see dissent. I see ownership of poor play and frustration, though.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1355762577' post='1267669']
I can't pinpoint every problem the team has, but discipline sure seems to be a big part of it. I never claimed that was the only issue with this team, the be-all and end-all of issues we have. It's obviously not. But what do you say is the problem when we get bone-headed penalties that are clearly penalties and yet we commit them anyway? That's a lack of discipline.

That was merely the only real issue with the team I can even pinpoint right now because all the other problems seem to be muddled in a myriad of mistakes.

As for the strength & conditioning coach, it's well documented every team has injuries, but come on. How many people do we have on this team who are injured/keep getting injured? We have a lot. I don't have the time to research how many of our players are injured, but please tell me who leads the league in injuries. I'd really like to know. Cody & Kemo both appear to be getting their backs on the ground frequently. Let's also throw Jah Reid into that equation as well. Ngata has not looked good at all this year and is not playing at the level you would expect him to play. Yeah, we have an issue with our training staff. I'm not excusing the players, it's their fault as well.
[/quote]

The probems are there for everyone to see. Poor execution on both sides of the ball. Injuries forcing lesser players to step in. Some starters not having enough experience and/or simply not being good enough.

Outside of players on IR, there's no definitive way to tell who leads the league in injuries. When you look at the players who are getting hurt, the majority have either played either played a bunch of snaps for more than several seasons now or have proven to be relatively injury-prone. There isn't a strength and conditioning coach in the league who can make guys more durable.

We've seen why Kemo was out of the league last year. The man's 33 and whatever anchoring strength he once had is almost gone. As for Cody, the bigger reason why he seemingly ends up on the ground is because of technique. All reports in the off-season were that he was constantly at the practice facility. We've seen other defensive lineman excel, so he has only himself to blame in my opinion. As for Reid, it looks like he's simply an injury-prone player. Again, that's not something a coach is going to change. Haloti turns 29 next year and has played a ton of snaps since his rookie year. Is it that surprising he's battled injuries the past two seasons?

No one was calling for Bob Ragucki or Juney Barnett's heads in the past. Doing it now is just looking for someone to blame.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1355763418' post='1267694']
We've had the same strength and conditioning guy since John got here and we've never had big problems with injuries...
[/quote]
Okay, then what's your solution? Are these injuries just some fluke accident? I mean, this injury situation has become ridiculous. Either the Pittsburgh Steelers went to the Caribbean and got some Voodoo magic and used it on us or there is something wrong somewhere. The strength & conditioning coach is supposed to get these guys ready, and these guys haven't been this year. This is a "what have you done for me lately" league, and it's a lot easier to get rid of the strength & conditioning coach than Haloti Ngata.