Could not playing McKinney cost us big?

[The Raven]

[quote name='nextgen_RavensFan' timestamp='1355606516' post='1261598']
Will look for the actual video but i saw it on the Ravens site as i stopped listening to ESPN and NFL Network because they never give us our just due respect.
[/quote]

Mhm.... you make sure to let me know when you do!

[jdynamite]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1355613959' post='1261725']


I never said they were a "prolific passing offense", they ran the ball and did it extremely well. Tomlinson was the undoubted best runner in the league for almost a decade in part because the Chargers used him so much.
[/quote]

I know u didn't say that. U said prolific offense. But that term certainly would have to include an above average passing attack, if not then I guess we've had a couple of prolific offenses too because of strong rush attack and middling pass attack. Even with J.Lewis ( we had either Sharpe or Heap ) with at least one WR near 800. The other years we had Mason the one WR along with heap and strong run game and I'd hardly consider that prolific.
I guess we just grew up at different times for me a prolific offense would include the 90s Bills, 94'-49ers, 98'-Vikings, Rams w/Faulk, 90s-Cowboys( although I hate them), Those teams had pretty good to great pass attacks with 1,000 yd feature RBs.



Further, I'm not willing to give Cam credit for running LT and using him so much, because Marty Shottenheimer (2002-2006)was already running him into the dirt with Marty ball before Norv came back as the head coach following 06'. Marty ball has always been heavy running. Seriously doubt that Marty would stand for not getting his Top 5 drafted RB the ball.



Perhaps his time in SD and watching LT be utilized so much, caused him to think if I use the RB less at times it will prolong their career.

[berad]

[quote name='jdynamite' timestamp='1355670063' post='1262004']
I know u didn't say that. U said prolific offense. But that term certainly would have to include an above average passing attack, if not then I guess we've had a couple of prolific offenses too because of strong rush attack and middling pass attack. Even with J.Lewis ( we had either Sharpe or Heap ) with at least one WR near 800. The other years we had Mason the one WR along with heap and strong run game and I'd hardly consider that prolific.
I guess we just grew up at different times for me a prolific offense would include the 90s Bills, 94'-49ers, 98'-Vikings, Rams w/Faulk, 90s-Cowboys( although I hate them), Those teams had pretty good to great pass attacks with 1,000 yd feature RBs.[/quote]

I meant prolific in the sense that they put up a lot of yards and scored a lot of points. Doesn't matter if they were better at running than throwing, they lit up the scoreboard. They were a top 5 scoring team for a number of years.

[quote name='jdynamite' timestamp='1355670063' post='1262004']
Further, I'm not willing to give Cam credit for running LT and using him so much, because Marty Shottenheimer [b](2002-2006)[/b]was already running him into the dirt with Marty ball before Norv came back as the head coach following 06'. Marty ball has always been heavy running. Seriously doubt that Marty would stand for not getting his Top 5 drafted RB the ball.

Perhaps his time in SD and watching LT be utilized so much, caused him to think if I use the RB less at times it will prolong their career.
[/quote]

Cameron was there those exact same years. Schottenheimer is very conservative, yes, but it was still Cameron's offense. I'm not totally certain that LT throwing TD passes was a stable of Marty-ball. Cameron WAS a good offensive coordinator that got very stale.

[ratedr]

LT himself said on First on the Field on NFL Network that while he liked Cam, sometimes he got away from the run. This is a HoF-caliber RB saying this.

[jdynamite]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1355672800' post='1262020']


I meant prolific in the sense that they put up a lot of yards and scored a lot of points. Doesn't matter if they were better at running than throwing, they lit up the scoreboard. They were a top 5 scoring team for a number of years.



Cameron was there those exact same years. Schottenheimer is very conservative, yes, but it was still Cameron's offense. I'm not totally certain that LT throwing TD passes was a stable of Marty-ball. Cameron WAS a good offensive coordinator that got very stale.
[/quote]

Lol well Marcus Allen was known to throw a pass or two in KC. Didn't do it as well as LT.

And we all know scoring offense PPG can be misleading since it includes pts scored by the defense as well as special teams. Kinda like how for most of the season the Bears had a Top 10 scoring offense because their defense scored like 7 or 8 defensive TDs.

[Warren2621]

McKinnie should play because of the fact that Oher is out of position and couldnt block me coming off the blindside.

im calling him blindeyes from now on because he acts like he cant see the guy blowing past him

[Gashman]

It's time McKinney goes to LT.

[Gashman]

Maybe my topic should have said, How much has it cost us NOT having McKinnie at LT?

[jimmypowder]

[quote name='Gashman' timestamp='1355959902' post='1271044']
Maybe my topic should have said, How much has it cost us NOT having McKinnie at LT?
[/quote]

Alot it simply makes no sense not to have
McKinnie -LT
Osemele-LG
Birk-C
Yanda-RG
Oher-RT

Mckinnie needs to emerge from Harbaugh's doghouse .

Oh wasnt this the same line we had last year with the exception of Grubbs????? And that line
was much better then our line this year

This coaching staff needs to get with it big time!

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='rmw10' timestamp='1355423087' post='1260245']


Haha this is my biggest pet peeve. I've seen countless people try to act like they know everything about the team, yet butcher names.
[/quote]

Ryce, Mickenney, Flaco, Burke and Tory Smith all playing????

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='Warren2621' timestamp='1355701896' post='1265591']
McKinnie should play because of the fact that Oher is out of position and couldnt block me coming off the blindside.

im calling him blindeyes from now on because he acts like he cant see the guy blowing past him
[/quote]

Lol nice. It's so stupid Harbaugh refuses to make the change. Maybe he wants Joe to leave.

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='jdynamite' timestamp='1355696142' post='1265132']


Lol well Marcus Allen was known to throw a pass or two in KC. Didn't do it as well as LT.

And we all know scoring offense PPG can be misleading since it includes pts scored by the defense as well as special teams. Kinda like how for most of the season the Bears had a Top 10 scoring offense because their defense scored like 7 or 8 defensive TDs.
[/quote]

I loved when Ray Rice threw his....thought the innovation was back. SMH.

[Alexir]

Harbaugh needs to get him on the field and stopping his own agenda of dog housing a player from an incident happening months ago. He needs to get over the weight issue and fix the damn line

[rlh445]

Why is it so hard for some of you to just admit to yourselves that while it would be great if McKinnie was capable of starting, it's in the team's best interest that he isn't? There is no doghouse, guys. Let that idiotic notion go. Sorry, 'fixing the dang line' isn't going to magically happen by inserting McKinnie, and it's foolish to think so.

[Alexir]

[quote name='rlh445' timestamp='1356196258' post='1273501']
Why is it so hard for some of you to just admit to yourselves that while it would be great if McKinnie was capable of starting, it's in the team's best interest that he isn't? There is no doghouse, guys. Let that idiotic notion go. Sorry, 'fixing the dang line' isn't going to magically happen by inserting McKinnie, and it's foolish to think so.
[/quote]

No one is saying he is the teams best lineman and if you don't think harbaugh has a dog house, you probably don't remember a certain backer who now plays for the Chargers, he ll tell ya all about it.

Putting Bryant at LT means Oher can go to RT where he excels and it means KO kicks in at guard (which we drafted him for), so maybe you don't understand the significance of having Bryant play; it's not that he's an amazing LT, it makes our other guys play in spots they excel at

[The Raven]

Depending on how this game goes, I may board the McKinnie bandwagon. Oher was fine until three weeks ago. Don't know what happened! I like the idea of KO at guard.

[nextgen_RavensFan]

When i first posted here i waas a bit upset that they kept putting Ohet at LT and not Mckinnie but if they are to gauge Oher as they do not intend to bring back Mckinnie they need to find out once and for all if Oher can handle that position or is there a need to draft a new LT or try to gain one by other resources. That makes sense to me now. After i have calmed down and kind of accepted the fact that we are who we are and we need to have as many questions answered as we can by draft time this is needed. If we do sort of purge old talent in the off season we need to know who can help and who cannot so i am all in. It is Oher's job to win or lose his job at LT and i am voting for him to win it.

[rlh445]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1356196647' post='1273509']
No one is saying he is the teams best lineman and if you don't think harbaugh has a dog house, you probably don't remember a certain backer who now plays for the Chargers, he ll tell ya all about it.

Putting Bryant at LT means Oher can go to RT where he excels and it means KO kicks in at guard (which we drafted him for), so maybe you don't understand the significance of having Bryant play; it's not that he's an amazing LT, it makes our other guys play in spots they excel at
[/quote]

Pffffft, I don't care what traded players say about anything, I care about results. Everyone said McAllister was in the doghouse too and yet his play was obviously off and there WAS an actual reason we didn't start him. Guess what guy, that's all the 'doghouse' is. You really think Harbaugh wouldn't put out the best rotation of guys he could because of some BS fan made up doghouse crap? Please.

What good is having McKinnie start just to put other guys on the line in their natural positions? HE'S still going to be bad, and we'll no longer be able to run to that side and we'll also not be able to count on any better pass protection from the blindside than what we've gotten in the past three games from Oher. Your proposed solution just adds more problems.

[jimmypowder]

Even if Mckinnie was out of shape and I have no idea if he is right now, he is still harder
to get around then Oher. He's wider,has much longer arms and was once a Pro Bowl
tackle.
He may be a downgrade on run blocking but i dont see alot of holes be opened up on that side anyway.

My biggest complaint about Harbaugh is time management,challenges and his hard headed attitude to
certain players that he places in the doghouse. Ellerbe was in there for a while until this year though he arguably has the
most talent at linebacker other then Suggs.

[Alexir]

[quote name='rlh445' timestamp='1356208492' post='1273686']
Pffffft, I don't care what traded players say about anything, I care about results. Everyone said McAllister was in the doghouse too and yet his play was obviously off and there WAS an actual reason we didn't start him. Guess what guy, that's all the 'doghouse' is. You really think Harbaugh wouldn't put out the best rotation of guys he could because of some BS fan made up doghouse crap? Please.

What good is having McKinnie start just to put other guys on the line in their natural positions? HE'S still going to be bad, and we'll no longer be able to run to that side and we'll also not be able to count on any better pass protection from the blindside than what we've gotten in the past three games from Oher. Your proposed solution just adds more problems.
[/quote]

It's weird that you say you care about results when the player I am talking about had 11 sacks last year coming off the bench....Harbaugh didn't like what he did in the pre season versus the Rams, and he sat in the DOG HOUSE, that very much exists. Frank Walker and Fabian Washington were better than CMac? And they found this out the day McAlister came down from his hotel room with shorts and some chicks before the Miami game. No, he was put in the Dog House. I think you are being a little Naive. Harbaugh runs a tight ship.

Harbaugh doesn't put out the best 5 lineman. I can tell you that right now because Jah Reid an Bobbie Williams should not be on the field ever.

Our best 5 when healthy are Yanda, Oher, KO, Birk and Bryant. Period. I would like to see more of Harewood, over Williams or Reid.

I think you are way off by saying that putting Bryant on the field would cause more issues. What I can tell you is KO is an upgrade over Reid or Williams and I can also tell you Michael Oher is a solid right tackle and would greatly boost the run game. So what does that leave? 1 spot where we aren't incredibly better, but we aren't that worse at either: Left tackle. 4 Solid players and a LT that might show up. So you get a Tight End over there to help him, or you get Leach to be Flaccos body guard on passing downs. But the rest of the line doesn't get worse , it gets better because better talent is playing over the guard and right tackle position.

It's a very simple concept, don't see why you aren't seeing that. No one is saying McKinnie is our savior, getting him in makes it so the rest of our line is fixed....

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1356213962' post='1273754']
It's weird that you say you care about results when the player I am talking about had 11 sacks last year coming off the bench....Harbaugh didn't like what he did in the pre season versus the Rams, and he sat in the DOG HOUSE, that very much exists. Frank Walker and Fabian Washington were better than CMac? And they found this out the day McAlister came down from his hotel room with shorts and some chicks before the Miami game. No, he was put in the Dog House. I think you are being a little Naive. Harbaugh runs a tight ship.

Harbaugh doesn't put out the best 5 lineman. I can tell you that right now because Jah Reid an Bobbie Williams should not be on the field ever.

Our best 5 when healthy are Yanda, Oher, KO, Birk and Bryant. Period. I would like to see more of Harewood, over Williams or Reid.

I think you are way off by saying that putting Bryant on the field would cause more issues. What I can tell you is KO is an upgrade over Reid or Williams and I can also tell you Michael Oher is a solid right tackle and would greatly boost the run game. So what does that leave? 1 spot where we aren't incredibly better, but we aren't that worse at either: Left tackle. 4 Solid players and a LT that might show up. So you get a Tight End over there to help him, or you get Leach to be Flaccos body guard on passing downs. But the rest of the line doesn't get worse , it gets better because better talent is playing over the guard and right tackle position.

It's a very simple concept, don't see why you aren't seeing that. No one is saying McKinnie is our savior, getting him in makes it so the rest of our line is fixed....
[/quote]

Still don't know their infatuation with Reid at OG, he's god awful and Bobbie Williams straight up can't move anymore. Ya Harewood couldn't pick up a stunt but at least he was a positive in the run game.

[PurpleCityLights]

O-line sucks and I dont know if our coaches are smart enough to fix it....

[rlh445]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1356213962' post='1273754']
It's weird that you say you care about results when the player I am talking about had 11 sacks last year coming off the bench....Harbaugh didn't like what he did in the pre season versus the Rams, and he sat in the DOG HOUSE, that very much exists. Frank Walker and Fabian Washington were better than CMac? And they found this out the day McAlister came down from his hotel room with shorts and some chicks before the Miami game. No, he was put in the Dog House. I think you are being a little Naive. Harbaugh runs a tight ship.

Harbaugh doesn't put out the best 5 lineman. I can tell you that right now because Jah Reid an Bobbie Williams should not be on the field ever.

Our best 5 when healthy are Yanda, Oher, KO, Birk and Bryant. Period. I would like to see more of Harewood, over Williams or Reid.

I think you are way off by saying that putting Bryant on the field would cause more issues. What I can tell you is KO is an upgrade over Reid or Williams and I can also tell you Michael Oher is a solid right tackle and would greatly boost the run game. So what does that leave? 1 spot where we aren't incredibly better, but we aren't that worse at either: Left tackle. 4 Solid players and a LT that might show up. So you get a Tight End over there to help him, or you get Leach to be Flaccos body guard on passing downs. But the rest of the line doesn't get worse , it gets better because better talent is playing over the guard and right tackle position.

[b]It's a very simple concept, don't see why you aren't seeing that. No one is saying McKinnie is our savior, getting him in makes it so the rest of our line is fixed....[/b]
[/quote]

As to the bolded, I have a question for you: if it was that simple, why haven't our FO done it? Seeing as how their results have been nothing less than stellar over a five year period even taking this three game slide into account, what makes you think they wouldn't have been smart enough to throw good ol' Big Mac into the rotation yet? If it's so simple, why haven't we done it yet? It's probably because they don't feel he's good enough to go, 'period,'. You don't think the line coach or Cam or someone else would have brought it to John? You don't think they've thought of that? Pffffffffffft is all I have to say to that. As fans we may think we're smarter than our coaches, but by and large we're not. There is OBVIOUSLY a problem there with McKinnie and it's not a freaking 'doghouse' issue.


Second, as far as Barnes go, the guy was traded bro. TRADED. Guess whose department that is? Not Harbs, Ozzie's and the rest. If Harbs had some sort of personal 'grudge' against Barnes, I don't think that would have played with all of his bosses. It doesn't make sense, and it's stupid. Barnes was being used as a situational pass rusher, and he was good at it. We didn't NEED one of those, we had (have) Kruger for that. He was horrible at filling his gaps and sticking with his man. That's probably one reason why we felt we could get something out of him. We weren't wrong, as his season this year with the Chargers shows. Sorry, but I'm not shedding any tears over losing him.

My issue with all of this is that people are saying Gaither is an automatic upgrade at LT, but if he was, he'd be playing. If we're using last year as an example, sure. We're not in last year though, we're in this year. The year where his financial problems caught up with him as well as his weight and work ethic. THIS RIGHT HERE is what Vikings fans were crowing about on THIS...VERY....BOARD when we picked him up. 'Oh he's doing well now, just wait until his laziness kicks in,' and guess what Alexir....it has and I have no doubt that this is why he's not playing. Harbs doesn't mess around with guys who don't want to give their all out there and I don't blame him. I'd rather have a guy who's a little less naturally skilled at playing the position but busting his chops every play than have a guy who is wasting his talent feeling sorry for himself, coming to work out of shape and just getting in the way. Did you even see any of the Jumbo packages we threw him into where he just Oh Layed the guy he was supposed to block? I did, and I was disgusted. He's mentally checked out, and putting him in that lineup doesn't help anyone.

Oh yea, and nobody was complaining about Big Mike until these last couple of games. NOBODY. Up until then, you didn't hear bupkus about McKinnie the 'great'.

[Alexir]

[quote name='rlh445' timestamp='1356220746' post='1273821']
As to the bolded, I have a question for you: if it was that simple, why haven't our FO done it? Seeing as how their results have been nothing less than stellar over a five year period even taking this three game slide into account, what makes you think they wouldn't have been smart enough to throw good ol' Big Mac into the rotation yet? If it's so simple, why haven't we done it yet? It's probably because they don't feel he's good enough to go, 'period,'. You don't think the line coach or Cam or someone else would have brought it to John? You don't think they've thought of that? Pffffffffffft is all I have to say to that. As fans we may think we're smarter than our coaches, but by and large we're not. There is OBVIOUSLY a problem there with McKinnie and it's not a freaking 'doghouse' issue.


Second, as far as Barnes go, the guy was traded bro. TRADED. Guess whose department that is? Not Harbs, Ozzie's and the rest. If Harbs had some sort of personal 'grudge' against Barnes, I don't think that would have played with all of his bosses. It doesn't make sense, and it's stupid. Barnes was being used as a situational pass rusher, and he was good at it. We didn't NEED one of those, we had (have) Kruger for that. He was horrible at filling his gaps and sticking with his man. That's probably one reason why we felt we could get something out of him. We weren't wrong, as his season this year with the Chargers shows. Sorry, but I'm not shedding any tears over losing him.

My issue with all of this is that people are saying Gaither is an automatic upgrade at LT, but if he was, he'd be playing. If we're using last year as an example, sure. We're not in last year though, we're in this year. The year where his financial problems caught up with him as well as his weight and work ethic. THIS RIGHT HERE is what Vikings fans were crowing about on THIS...VERY....BOARD when we picked him up. 'Oh he's doing well now, just wait until his laziness kicks in,' and guess what Alexir....it has and I have no doubt that this is why he's not playing. Harbs doesn't mess around with guys who don't want to give their all out there and I don't blame him. I'd rather have a guy who's a little less naturally skilled at playing the position but busting his chops every play than have a guy who is wasting his talent feeling sorry for himself, coming to work out of shape and just getting in the way. Did you even see any of the Jumbo packages we threw him into where he just Oh Layed the guy he was supposed to block? I did, and I was disgusted. He's mentally checked out, and putting him in that lineup doesn't help anyone.

Oh yea, and nobody was complaining about Big Mike until these last couple of games. NOBODY. Up until then, you didn't hear bupkus about McKinnie the 'great'.
[/quote]

The front office gave their vote of confidence when they signed him to a contract.....

If trading Barnes was Ozzie's job, then setting a line up is Harbaugh's job.

One time I saw him whiff on an assignment this year. It was really bad. But that happened once this year

[rlh445]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1356222701' post='1273838']
The front office gave their vote of confidence when they signed him to a contract.....

If trading Barnes was Ozzie's job, then setting a line up is Harbaugh's job.

One time I saw him whiff on an assignment this year. It was really bad. But that happened once this year
[/quote]

Indeed they did, and they made good on the contract but traded him. So?

Sure it is, and we more than made due with Kruger once Barnes was gone. We aren't missing much. The Eagles cut him shortly after acquiring him. I suppose both the Ravens staff AND Eagles staff were morons for doing so? Nope.

Are you in the habit of watching every Chargers game? He's played eleven games this year, and has whiffed on way more than one tackle. Sorry, you bringing up Antwan didn't help your case at all, only helped prove mine.

[Alexir]

[quote name='rlh445' timestamp='1356223019' post='1273839']
Indeed they did, and they made good on the contract but traded him. So?

Sure it is, and we more than made due with Kruger once Barnes was gone. We aren't missing much. The Eagles cut him shortly after acquiring him. I suppose both the Ravens staff AND Eagles staff were morons for doing so? Nope.

Are you in the habit of watching every Chargers game? He's played eleven games this year, and has whiffed on way more than one tackle. Sorry, you bringing up Antwan didn't help your case at all, only helped prove mine.
[/quote]

I was actually talking about Bryant and your hypocrisy....Barnes was used as a point to show that you weren't making sense.

You Had made a comment that the Front Office traded Barnes but then you said "the front office would do something if they wanted Bryant in the game" when it's a coaches decision to set a line up....not the front offices. Which is funny to me because you go off on a tangent about how Harbaugh doesn't have a doghouse and that Ozzie was the one that moved him and that it's not Harbaugh's job.

Just pointing out your hypocrisy, that's all.

Also, several beat writers and radio hosts all comment on the "doghouse" so maybe it does exist after all....

[rlh445]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1356223300' post='1273846']
I was actually talking about Bryant and your hypocrisy....Barnes was used as a point to show that you weren't making sense.

You Had made a comment that the Front Office traded Barnes but then you said "the front office would do something if they wanted Bryant in the game" when it's a coaches decision to set a line up....not the front offices. Which is funny to me because you go off on a tangent about how Harbaugh doesn't have a doghouse and that Ozzie was the one that moved him and that it's not Harbaugh's job.

Just pointing out your hypocrisy, that's all.

Also, several beat writers and radio hosts all comment on the "doghouse" so maybe it does exist after all....
[/quote]

Ohhhh. Right, if you want to organize a trade with a team for a player, you have to go through Ozzie. If you want to sit a guy, you go through the entire coaching staff. Either way, there is no room for a 'doghouse' or 'grudge' type mentality by a head coach. I'm not seeing the disconnect here. Oh, of course media people talk about a doghouse, because it gets hits. Hey, I personally don't believe a guy like Harbaugh would institute a system in which his best players don't play because he's mad at them, because to him what would be more important, his career or a grudge? That's just how I feel about it. If the guy could go and everyone else around him said he could go, Harbs would let him - heck WANT him - to play. Especially now in a three game slide. It's cool that we disagree about it.

[Alexir]

[quote name='rlh445' timestamp='1356223522' post='1273851']
Ohhhh. Right, if you want to organize a trade with a team for a player, you have to go through Ozzie. If you want to sit a guy, you go through the entire coaching staff. Either way, there is no room for a 'doghouse' or 'grudge' type mentality by a head coach. I'm not seeing the disconnect here. Oh, of course media people talk about a doghouse, because it gets hits. Hey, I personally don't believe a guy like Harbaugh would institute a system in which his best players don't play because he's mad at them, because to him what would be more important, his career or a grudge? That's just how I feel about it. If the guy could go and everyone else around him said he could go, Harbs would let him - heck WANT him - to play. Especially now in a three game slide. It's cool that we disagree about it.
[/quote]

Agree to disagree indeed.

[The Raven]

Yes. The "dog house" is a very real thing. However, Mckinnie has been on the sideline due to a lack of talent, not because of being in a dog house.

Earlier in the year, Oher got injured. McKinnie came in for THREE plays. I saw Joe get hit on each of those three plays, by the same guy. McKinnie is terrible.