Could not playing McKinney cost us big?

[Twistidfunk]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1355498474' post='1260790']
The only reason McKinnie played LT last year was because we had nobody else to put at RT.
[/quote]

So what has changed? We have a rookie at RT and slide Oher to the left where he is not as good, that is the answer?

Seems unwise to me, especially since Oher was fine at RT and McKinnie was fine at LT.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Twistidfunk' timestamp='1355503798' post='1260858']
So what has changed? We have a rookie at RT and slide Oher to the left where he is not as good, that is the answer?

[b]Seems unwise to me, especially since Oher was fine at RT and McKinnie was fine at LT.[/b]
[/quote]

Neither of them were "fine". Oher might have been marginally better there than he's been this season but he still struggled and McKinnie was often a liability. With Yanda hurt, there's no point in shuffling the line even more by trying to incorporate Big Mac.

[Twistidfunk]

[quote name='Greatness' timestamp='1355462335' post='1260675']
McKinnie probably quit on the team after the Ravens nickel and dimed him. Money-grabbed him back to limit his snaps. I would've slacked off (even moreso) just in spite. If the Ravens were playing to potential, they should've just went with this.

Osemele/Harewood/Birk/Yanda/Oher

or

[b]McKinnie/Osemele/Birk/Yanda/Oher[/b]

KO even stated he felt natural playing at the guard position anyway. That opening day unit wasn't too shabby either. But time changes and folks get exposed. Just goes back to coaching not putting us in the best positions to succeed. Happened when Ellerbe was in the doghouse a few years ago. But none of this matters. Just find a way into the playoffs and the season then begins.
[/quote]

This should have been the starting line from DAY ONE. But no, Ozzie didn't want to shell out more cash for the number of starts McKinnie obtained. I forget the number but he was due a million or something like that for getting double digit starts.....I don't now the exact numbers but he had an incentive clause in there.

Well, whatever it was is passed. No reason for him on the bench anymore. I hope 2 sack fumbles and two awful losses were worth a million bucks, Ravens......pfft.

[Twistidfunk]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1355503968' post='1260863']
Neither of them were "fine". Oher might have been marginally better there than he's been this season but he still struggled and McKinnie was often a liability. With Yanda hurt, there's no point in shuffling the line even more by trying to incorporate Big Mac.
[/quote]

How were they not fine? We went 13-3 and 1 Lee Evans away from the superbowl!

I don't have time to look up the stats but Oher is a good player, so is McKinnie. Oher is better on the right than the left but overall, I like Oher.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Twistidfunk' timestamp='1355504247' post='1260869']
How were they not fine? We went 13-3 and 1 Lee Evans away from the superbowl!

I don't have time to look up the stats but Oher is a good player, so is McKinnie. Oher is better on the right than the left but overall, I like Oher.
[/quote]

What kind of flawed reasoning is that? The team's record and how close they were to a Super Bowl doesn't negate the fact that both of them got abused routinley last season, prarticularly in the play-offs.

Well, if you looked up the stats, you'd see Oher is average. According to PFF, he's surrendered 37 total pressures on 484 pass blocking snaps this season. [url="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/07/12/three-years-of-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/"]He's also among the worst in terms of pass blocking efficiency over the past three seasons.[/url] How would you explain that?

McKinnie appeared in their top 15 but that was definitely on the back of his last two seasons in Minnesotta. Anyone who really watched him play last season wouldn't claim he's a good player.

[The Raven]

[quote name='Twistidfunk' timestamp='1355504247' post='1260869']
How were they not fine? We went 13-3 and 1 Lee Evans away from the superbowl!

I don't have time to look up the stats but Oher is a good player, so is McKinnie. Oher is better on the right than the left but overall, I like Oher.
[/quote]

Worst reasoning I have ever damn heard on this board.

By that logic, Cam is a great OC and shouldn't have been fired!

Terrible freaking logic!

[Twistidfunk]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1355508639' post='1260913']
Worst reasoning I have ever damn heard on this board.

By that logic, Cam is a great OC and shouldn't have been fired!

Terrible freaking logic!
[/quote]

Haha, not the same logic.

Cam had a history of trying to air it out too much and forgetting Ray Rice. His play calling was not inventive and predictable. We have lost quite a few games because of him and even ended up playing in New England again....where we could have won. The Ravens defense was a big part of last season but I don't remember any blind side sack fumbles costing us the game...more like David friggin Reed and Cam Cameron.

You look around the league and our line last year was pretty good. Not so this season.

[Twistidfunk]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1355504931' post='1260872']
What kind of flawed reasoning is that? The team's record and how close they were to a Super Bowl doesn't negate the fact that both of them got abused routinley last season, prarticularly in the play-offs.

Well, if you looked up the stats, you'd see Oher is average. According to PFF, he's surrendered 37 total pressures on 484 pass blocking snaps this season. [url="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/07/12/three-years-of-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/"]He's also among the worst in terms of pass blocking efficiency over the past three seasons.[/url] How would you explain that?

McKinnie appeared in their top 15 but that was definitely on the back of his last two seasons in Minnesotta. Anyone who really watched him play last season wouldn't claim he's a good player.
[/quote]

I don't remember them being abused at all last playoffs. No game changing plays stick out in my mind like those of Oher at LT. I thought they played quite well actually. The Texans were great last season and the Patriots, well almost won another superbowl so that tells you what kind of team they had.

I Still say McKinnie is an upgrade at LT over Oher.

[RavensAllTheWay]

The only reason KO is playing RT right now is because no one else can except for Oher, but that would require McKinnie playing on the left. McKinnie was not a good run blocker, nor could he handle the speed rush last year. Oher's been getting beat like a drum over the last couple of weeks, but before that, I didn't have a lot to complain about with his play.

If we had more depth at tackle (which I thought we did, but it turns out we don't), Osemele would play guard. I'm hoping we work towards this for next season, but there's nothing better for us right now.

[The Raven]

[quote name='Twistidfunk' timestamp='1355513773' post='1260977']
Haha, not the same logic.

Cam had a history of trying to air it out too much and forgetting Ray Rice. His play calling was not inventive and predictable. We have lost quite a few games because of him and even ended up playing in New England again....where we could have won. The Ravens defense was a big part of last season but I don't remember any blind side sack fumbles costing us the game...more like David friggin Reed and Cam Cameron.

You look around the league and our line last year was pretty good. Not so this season.
[/quote]

But we went 13-3 with him last year so that must mean he's good!

It's the EXACT same logic.

[Twistidfunk]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1355515902' post='1260999']
But we went 13-3 with him last year so that must mean he's good!

It's the EXACT same logic.
[/quote]

I don't see it that way. McKinnie has a had a long career and even made the pro-bowl in the past. I don't recall Cam Cameron with any accolades.

Cam has actually flamed out more than once in his career with the NFL. See Chargers and Dolphins and now Ravens. I don't know where he was before Chargers?

McKinnie's probelm was his weight apparently. What did the Ravens do? Made him lose weight to negotiate a drop in salary. It was the same in Minnesota. Money issues hidden behind his weight.

Personally I don't care what a guy weighs if he can play. Remember the Fridge? He was over 400 lbs! No one made him drop weight that I remember.

Weight is a negotiating tactic. It isn't all performance. What is 5 or 10 lbs gonna do on a guy who weighs over 350?

[The Raven]

[quote name='Twistidfunk' timestamp='1355516920' post='1261011']
I don't see it that way. McKinnie has a had a long career and even made the pro-bowl in the past. I don't recall Cam Cameron with any accolades.

Cam has actually flamed out more than once in his career with the NFL. See Chargers and Dolphins and now Ravens. I don't know where he was before Chargers?

McKinnie's probelm was his weight apparently. What did the Ravens do? Made him lose weight to negotiate a drop in salary. It was the same in Minnesota. Money issues hidden behind his weight.

Personally I don't care what a guy weighs if he can play. Remember the Fridge? He was over 400 lbs! No one made him drop weight that I remember.

Weight is a negotiating tactic. It isn't all performance. What is 5 or 10 lbs gonna do on a guy who weighs over 350?
[/quote]

He set records with the Chargers, I guess you missed that part.

Weight has a whole lot to do with it! We wanted him to lose weight so he could gain quickness. He lacks agility and burst, which are, contrary to popular belief, needed on the offensive line. He has slow feet in pass pro and in run blocking. It makes perfect sense for him to have to lose weight. 5 or 10 pounds can make a huge difference, even for a guy of his size. Believe it or not, even 5 pounds can make a slight difference in agility. That's why we wanted him to drop weight... Duh. I think the PROFESSIONAL trainers and coaches would know more about this than yourself.

Also, yes, the Fridge was 400 pounds. That was in a different league. The Fridge wouldn't make it in this league. You could get by with sheer size back then because the other guys were not nearly as athletic as guys are now. Also, he could play at over 400. McKinnie has proven that he can barely play well at 360.

[berad]

[quote name='Twistidfunk' timestamp='1355516920' post='1261011']
I don't see it that way. McKinnie has a had a long career and even made the pro-bowl in the past. I don't recall Cam Cameron with any accolades.

Cam has actually flamed out more than once in his career with the NFL. See Chargers and Dolphins and now Ravens. I don't know where he was before Chargers?[/quote]

Not relate to McKinnie but Cameron was actually REALLY successful in SD. He had one of the most prolific offenses in the league for years. Whether that was him or the amazing of talent (way more than here) is debatable but he did not "flame out" in San Diego, he took a HC somewhere else - a promotion.

[The Raven]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1355518327' post='1261032']
Not relate to McKinnie but Cameron was actually REALLY successful in SD. He had one of the most prolific offenses in the league for years. Whether that was him or the amazing of talent (way more than here) is debatable but he did not "flame out" in San Diego, he took a HC somewhere else - a promotion.
[/quote]

I think it was a combination. When he was in San Diego, he actually had all the pieces he needed to effectively run the Air Coryell. Here, not so much.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Twistidfunk' timestamp='1355514036' post='1260983']
I don't remember them being abused at all last playoffs. No game changing plays stick out in my mind like those of Oher at LT. I thought they played quite well actually. The Texans were great last season and the Patriots, well almost won another superbowl so that tells you what kind of team they had.

I Still say McKinnie is an upgrade at LT over Oher.
[/quote]

You don't remember Watt and company destroying the o-line in the first play-off game or seemingly every Patriot pass rusher getting pressure on Flacco in the AFC title game? Fair enough. There might not have been any game-changing plays but the o-line got embarrassed in those contests.

I won't argue that but inserting McKinnie back in would screw up the rest of the o-line. He doesn't have a future with the team anyway. It's better for the young players to get the reps.

[jdynamite]

[quote name='Gashman' timestamp='1355421495' post='1260217']
Not sure what the deal with not playing McKinney is, but now that Yanda is hurt, will Harbs relent and play him?

In my opinion, it's the same stubbornness Cam has had with not using the middle in passing plays. Maybe this thread should say, has being a hard donkey cost us big this year?
[/quote]

First, McKinney as in DT Brandon McKinney is no longer with the Ravens organization, however Bryant McKinnie - OT is... Learns your players names before posting.

McKinnie was exactly dominate last season playing at LT, ( part of that could be because he was signed at latter part of preseason just started from there. He basically learned the playbook while playing. ) I thought he would comeback this year,( In Shape), ready to play full knowledge of his plays. I thought Osemele would be at LG. McKinnie had other plans didn't get in shape, avoided alot of offseason workouts etc.

I can't remember all the games that McKinnie has gotten snaps in but I know when he's been in such as Houston game he looked completely lost. Or the game where he was brought in a Heavy Package and he motioned out the backfield then he didn't touch a single a person almost as bad as the game where LG B.Williams did just sat there looking at A.Smtih of Houston go freely to QB.

I'm willingly to agree that if Yanda can't play then putting McKinnie in and shuffling the entire O-line could be feasible but then again I also would be okay with Harewood playing one of Guard positions because he is a better option to me than bobby Williams at least Harewood is a mauler in the run game.

[nextgen_RavensFan]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1355586360' post='1261387']
You don't remember Watt and company destroying the o-line in the first play-off game or seemingly every Patriot pass rusher getting pressure on Flacco in the AFC title game? Fair enough. There might not have been any game-changing plays but the o-line got embarrassed in those contests.

I won't argue that but inserting McKinnie back in would screw up the rest of the o-line. He doesn't have a future with the team anyway. It's better for the young players to get the reps.
[/quote]

So you would rather Joe scramble (not his strong suit) and take hits ? It is thinking like that that would get him hurt. This is the NFL you put your best possible players on the field.

[berad]

[quote name='nextgen_RavensFan' timestamp='1355600240' post='1261517']
So you would rather Joe scramble (not his strong suit) and take hits ? It is thinking like that that would get him hurt. This is the NFL you put your best possible players on the field.
[/quote]

That's [b]exactly [/b]what was happening in the two games Ed_Reed20 mentioned - when the apparently infallible McKinnie was starting.

[nextgen_RavensFan]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1355600375' post='1261519']
That's [b]exactly [/b]what was happening in the two games Ed_Reed20 mentioned - when the apparently infallible McKinnie was starting.
[/quote]

So you are stating Mckinnie is worse then Oher ? Oher himself admits he does not have the speed to play the blind side. If he admits it he has already lost the battle. I have to look and see when Mckinnie last played a full game and compare his and Ohers numbers and i am almost 100% sure Oher does not even compare.

[The Raven]

[quote name='nextgen_RavensFan' timestamp='1355601452' post='1261536']
So you are stating Mckinnie is worse then Oher ? Oher himself admits he does not have the speed to play the blind side. If he admits it he has already lost the battle. I have to look and see when Mckinnie last played a full game and compare his and Ohers numbers and i am almost 100% sure Oher does not even compare.
[/quote]

When did Oher say that? I'd really like a source for that. Oher has the speed, he lacks the technique. I thought that was obvious.

And YES!!! McKinnie is worse than Oher!!! That's why Oher is the starter!!! Common sense man!

[berad]

[quote name='nextgen_RavensFan' timestamp='1355601452' post='1261536']
So you are stating Mckinnie is worse then Oher ? Oher himself admits he does not have the speed to play the blind side. If he admits it he has already lost the battle. I have to look and see when Mckinnie last played a full game and compare his and Ohers numbers and i am almost 100% sure Oher does not even compare.
[/quote]

Where did Oher say he is not fast enough? I did not see/hear about this, can you source it please?

And Oher is not only comparable to McKinnie as a pass-blocker but worlds better in run-blocking. Have you seen McKinnie in the time he has played this season? Half the time he doesn't block anyone and the other half he just leans on the guy.

[berad]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1355601574' post='1261537']
[b]When did Oher say that? I'd really like a source for that.[/b] Oher has the speed, he lacks the technique. I thought that was obvious.

And YES!!! McKinnie is worse than Oher!!! That's why Oher is the starter!!! Common sense man!
[/quote]

I don't think we'll get our answer for that, man...

[display name]

McKinnie had a good year last year, but if Harbs isn't playing him we have to assume he has a valid reason.

[berad]

[quote name='display name' timestamp='1355605070' post='1261574']
McKinnie had a good year last year, but if Harbs isn't playing him we have to assume he has a valid reason.
[/quote]

Plus they told him to lose weight (mixed results on that) and made him take a paycut (which goes beyond Harbs' control). The Ravens are not picking on McKinnie, he is just being overrated.

[display name]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1355605345' post='1261577']
Plus they told him to lose weight (mixed results on that) and made him take a paycut (which goes beyond Harbs' control). The Ravens are not picking on McKinnie, he is just being overrated.
[/quote]
Very true, his weight is part of it.
I'll still love him for this:
[img]http://www.baltimoresun.com/media/photo/2011-10/65401993.jpg[/img]

[berad]

[quote name='display name' timestamp='1355605543' post='1261582']
Very true, his weight is part of it.
I'll still love him for this:
[/quote]

How can you not? He folded up James Harrison like a lawn chair!

[nextgen_RavensFan]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1355601574' post='1261537']
When did Oher say that? I'd really like a source for that. Oher has the speed, he lacks the technique. I thought that was obvious.

And YES!!! McKinnie is worse than Oher!!! That's why Oher is the starter!!! Common sense man!
[/quote]

Will look for the actual video but i saw it on the Ravens site as i stopped listening to ESPN and NFL Network because they never give us our just due respect.

[jdynamite]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1355518327' post='1261032']


Not relate to McKinnie but Cameron was actually REALLY successful in SD. He had one of the most prolific offenses in the league for years. Whether that was him or the amazing of talent (way more than here) is debatable but he did not "flame out" in San Diego, he took a HC somewhere else - a promotion.
[/quote]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1355518327' post='1261032']


Not relate to McKinnie but Cameron was actually REALLY successful in SD. He had one of the most prolific offenses in the league for years. Whether that was him or the amazing of talent (way more than here) is debatable but he did not "flame out" in San Diego, he took a HC somewhere else - a promotion.
[/quote]

I'll agree he didn't "flame out in SD" but when Cam Cameron was in SD they weren't a "Prolific Passing team". That was during Tomlinson's glory years. For at least 4 years the offense was purely: run LT, Pass to Gates, Pass to LT find anyone else. Gates led the team in WR annually. Tomlinson constantly gained over 2,000 total yards (Receiving and Rushing yards for that team ). Remember that's when chargers had LT and Michael Turner both running. Every year a different crop of WRs. But they were by no means an offense juggernaut while under Cam Cameron, not with Brees, or Rivers.

In fact the chargers were a talented team for those years but the defense had more talent than the offense at that time.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1355447535' post='1260571']


Heap? Dog house? What?

Craziness.
[/quote]

Yeah, the soft spoken, blue collar Mormon was a pure nuisance! Some people....

[berad]

[quote name='jdynamite' timestamp='1355611504' post='1261682']
I'll agree he didn't "flame out in SD" but when Cam Cameron was in SD they weren't a "Prolific Passing team". That was during Tomlinson's glory years. For at least 4 years the offense was purely: run LT, Pass to Gates, Pass to LT find anyone else. Gates led the team in WR annually. Tomlinson constantly gained over 2,000 total yards (Receiving and Rushing yards for that team ). Remember that's when chargers had LT and Michael Turner both running. Every year a different crop of WRs. But they were by no means an offense juggernaut while under Cam Cameron, not with Brees, or Rivers.

In fact the chargers were a talented team for those years but the defense had more talent than the offense at that time.
[/quote]

I never said they were a "prolific passing offense", they ran the ball and did it extremely well. Tomlinson was the undoubted best runner in the league for almost a decade in part because the Chargers used him so much.