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Greg Cosell on the dismissal of Cam Cameron

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Greg Cosell was interviewed by WNST. For those who don't know who he is, he's a senior producer at NFL Films. He watches every snap of every game (unlike most "analysts" who just watch highlights), so he's definitely credible. He has been openly critical of Cam Cameron in the past.

The opening blurb of the interview, directly transcribed by me:

[quote]I think that the schemes and the approach that you see on film - so this is not a value judgment on my part, this is what the tape shows - I think what you see on film does not necessarily help Flacco be a consistent player. I think you have to understand what kind of QB he is, and then you tailor things to him and to your receiving core, and I think there's been a little bit of a disconnect...

I think that you're dealing with a receiving core that, now for a number of years, has not been very good winning against man coverage. This team gets a lot of man coverage. Combine that with the fact that the passing game, for the most part, is an intermediate to downfield passing game - there's not a lot of short, relatively easy throws...

Put those things together, and put in the fact that Flacco - who has a big-time arm and can make any throw - does not have probably among the best internal clocks of any QB in the league. That would not be his strength. So when you're asking him to make deeper throws against man coverage to receivers who are not giving him good indicators because they're not winning, then he ends up often standing in the pocket, holding the football. He's not a movement guy - he's not a statue, but he's certainly not a movement guy - so all this feeds on itself and leads to inconsistency both in terms of passing game numbers and the overall play of Flacco.[/quote]

The full audio can be heard here: [url="http://wnst.net/audio-vault/?listen=%20Greg%20Cosell%20%28NFL%20Films%29%20says%20biggest%20change%20to%20Caldwell%20offense%20needs%20to%20include%20Flacco%20time%20clock"]http://wnst.net/audi...acco time clock[/url]
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great analysis but what is it going to take for us to finally have shorter route combinations. i have faith caldwell is smart enough to know that.
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[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1355363056' post='1259674']
I'd expect to see most of these changes in the off-season. You don't suddenly incorporate a bunch of short pass plays overnight. I'm sure a large part of it is just making sure you call those plays but unless Caldwell was told when he was hired to expect to take over, I don't think he knows all the strengths and weaknesses of our offense.

I know Cam was pretty awful at a lot of things but he wasn't just plain stupid. Caldwell is just taking the reigns of what Cam built. I'd like to see Norv Turner bring in his version of Air Coryell and show us how it's supposed to be done.
[/quote]No on Norv Turner from me. Rivers is struggling this year for the same reason Flacco is so inconsistent: his line can't protect for the deep routes. Not to mention that the system requires tall, fast receivers. Vincent Jackson left SD, and look what happened.

I'd rather see Ken Whisenhunt or Pat Shurmur.
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[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1355363056' post='1259674']
I know Cam was pretty awful at a lot of things but he wasn't just plain stupid. Caldwell is just taking the reigns of what Cam built. I'd like to see Norv Turner bring in his version of Air Coryell and show us how it's supposed to be done.
[/quote]

Short routes and the Coryell do not mix. Norv will run the same broken system Cam ran, but maybe slightly better. It's a broken system, let's switch completely. Get it out of your heads people, Norv Turner is not the savior.

But awesome analysis as always from Cosell, he's the best. Great listen.
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Flacco stands in the pocket too long. He's good outside the pocket, and his mobility is very underrated, he just doesn't use it enough.
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i don't like the air coryell whatsoever. i hope our new coordinator (or jim) has no previous background of anything Air Coryell. please stop the norv turner crap. we don't have tall receivers, we don't have the line for the deep routes, and norv has nothing different than cam other than smarter playcalling.
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[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1355363056' post='1259674']
I'd expect to see most of these changes in the off-season. You don't suddenly incorporate a bunch of short pass plays overnight. I'm sure a large part of it is just making sure you call those plays but unless Caldwell was told when he was hired to expect to take over, I don't think he knows all the strengths and weaknesses of our offense.

I know Cam was pretty awful at a lot of things but he wasn't just plain stupid. Caldwell is just taking the reigns of what Cam built. I'd like to see Norv Turner bring in his version of Air Coryell and show us how it's supposed to be done.
[/quote]

I'd rather give Caldwell a chance first, since that's who the Ravens have chosen.
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lol @ me and T3hRaven getting negged for saying "no Norv." It's alright Norv, you'll get a job somewhere, we have nothing personal against you.
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[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1355359861' post='1259683']
Short routes and the Coryell do not mix.
[/quote]

Why? Yes, it is a vertical offense, but I don't see anything inherently that keeps you from throwing some short passes. On some level every offense is a hybrid of various concepts.
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[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1355360150' post='1259687']
Flacco stands in the pocket too long. He's good outside the pocket, and his mobility is very underrated, he just doesn't use it enough.
[/quote]

He stands in the pocket because he's a pocket passer. If he was protected the way he should be the offense would be very different. He's ok outside the pocket, but quarterbacks shouldn't be making their living like that. Brady doesn't, Manning doesn't, and those are the type of QBs I want.

[quote name='i82much' timestamp='1355361618' post='1259722']
Why? Yes, it is a vertical offense, but I don't see anything inherently that keeps you from throwing some short passes. On some level every offense is a hybrid of various concepts.
[/quote]

Offensive systems are designed to do certain things and attack certain aspects of a defense. The Coryell is designed to attack deep, from a philosophical perspective. That's the mentality of the offense, and that's why the plays are called the way that they are. Norv's and Cam's systems really aren't that different, and you can see that they don't work. I for one am going to be extremely pissed if we bring in Norv Turner because we could've stayed the same with Cam. We're wasting years of Flacco's career by not solving a problem that's really easy to solve. Our personell does not fit the Coryell right now, and we've been trying to do that for 5 years now and it doesn't work because the Coryell is a very personell specific system. It does not work if it's not set up exactly right. I'm inclined to think we'd never get the right personell for it.
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I'd expect to see most of these changes in the off-season. You don't suddenly incorporate a bunch of short pass plays overnight. I'm sure a large part of it is just making sure you call those plays but unless Caldwell was told when he was hired to expect to take over, I don't think he knows all the strengths and weaknesses of our offense.

I know Cam was pretty awful at a lot of things but he wasn't just plain stupid. Caldwell is just taking the reigns of what Cam built. I'd like to see Norv Turner bring in his version of Air Coryell and show us how it's supposed to be done.
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[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]Very interesting listen, thanks for posting it.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]I guess I will join the "Neg No Norv" train as well. We'll see what Caldwell provides. People give him a lot of smack cause he seems rather "emotionless" and people have the misconception that Manning "ran the show" in Indy for him -- not the case. Living in Indy, Caldwell had just as much influence, if not more, than Dungy.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]The only thing I don't want to see is Harbaugh AND Caldwell both walking up and down the sideline not doing much of anything. One, it'd be weird, like out of The Shining... Two, I would've rather stayed with Cam if that were the case.[/i][/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif][i]~ Cosmic[/i][/font]
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Yeah I say no to Norv. Let's get coach Whiz (wishful thinking) instead or Gailey or whoever is better at mixing things up.


EDIT:

Oh, and Cosell is absolutely on point. I see this with Joe as well. I think this is why the no huddle works best for him because he can adjust as needed and call more quick throws.
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[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1355362974' post='1259740']


He stands in the pocket because he's a pocket passer. If he was protected the way he should be the offense would be very different. He's ok outside the pocket, but quarterbacks shouldn't be making their living like that. Brady doesn't, Manning doesn't, and those are the type of QBs I want.



Offensive systems are designed to do certain things and attack certain aspects of a defense. The Coryell is designed to attack deep, from a philosophical perspective. That's the mentality of the offense, and that's why the plays are called the way that they are. Norv's and Cam's systems really aren't that different, and you can see that they don't work. I for one am going to be extremely pissed if we bring in Norv Turner because we could've stayed the same with Cam. We're wasting years of Flacco's career by not solving a problem that's really easy to solve. Our personell does not fit the Coryell right now, and we've been trying to do that for 5 years now and it doesn't work because the Coryell is a very personell specific system. It does not work if it's not set up exactly right. I'm inclined to think we'd never get the right personell for it.
[/quote]

Being a socket passer is no excuse for not moving in the pocket. You're still suppose to maneuver around, step up in it or aide to side. Show that you are somewhat aware of what's happening around you. Everyone tries to give the line a bad rap but the truth is Joe just messes up sometimes and not all those sacks are on the guys up front.

Cossell is on point though and has been saying this about Cam for a while now.
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People saying short routes cannot be infused into our offense in such short notice are funny! Its not re-inventing something crazy here...we're just talking about short routes and using the middle of the field. This, along with situational play calling, will change from this point forward!
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[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1355364302' post='1259757']
People saying short routes cannot be infused into our offense in such short notice are funny! Its not re-inventing something crazy here...we're just talking about short routes and using the middle of the field. This, along with situational play calling, will change from this point forward!
[/quote] Actually Joe does move, he's just too big. Big easy target, the people that we give a lot of credit to for their movement are typically smaller QBs, Drew Brees, Matt Hasselback, and Joe Montana was a master. They can squeak by and dodge defenders
This is not an excuse for joe, it just is what it is, when your big like he is you have to be strong to break those hand/arm tackles much like Big Ben.
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[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1355362974' post='1259740']
He stands in the pocket because he's a pocket passer. If he was protected the way he should be the offense would be very different. He's ok outside the pocket, but quarterbacks shouldn't be making their living like that. Brady doesn't, Manning doesn't, and those are the type of QBs I want.



Offensive systems are designed to do certain things and attack certain aspects of a defense. The Coryell is designed to attack deep, from a philosophical perspective. That's the mentality of the offense, and that's why the plays are called the way that they are. Norv's and Cam's systems really aren't that different, and you can see that they don't work. I for one am going to be extremely pissed if we bring in Norv Turner because we could've stayed the same with Cam. We're wasting years of Flacco's career by not solving a problem that's really easy to solve. Our personell does not fit the Coryell right now, and we've been trying to do that for 5 years now and it doesn't work because the Coryell is a very personell specific system. It does not work if it's not set up exactly right. I'm inclined to think we'd never get the right personell for it.
[/quote]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but that sounds mostly like a bunch of vague generalities.
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[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1355364302' post='1259757']
People saying short routes cannot be infused into our offense in such short notice are funny! Its not re-inventing something crazy here...we're just talking about short routes and using the middle of the field. This, along with situational play calling, will change from this point forward!
[/quote]

Really. Its not like our WRs don't know how to run short routes or that Joe cannot throw into to a short route. How hard can it be?
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[quote name='redrum52' timestamp='1355364236' post='1259754']
Being a socket passer is no excuse for not moving in the pocket. You're still suppose to maneuver around, step up in it or aide to side. Show that you are somewhat aware of what's happening around you. Everyone tries to give the line a bad rap but the truth is Joe just messes up sometimes and not all those sacks are on the guys up front.
[/quote]

arnie hit on this in another thread, but there's no pocket to move around in. Guys are getting destroyed on the edge, especially Oher, and Birk is old and gets dominated making it difficult to step up. The only one pulling his weight is Yanda, and he's hurt. This line has sorely missed Ben Grubbs.

[quote name='i82much' timestamp='1355364985' post='1259768']
I'm not saying you're wrong, but that sounds mostly like a bunch of vague generalities.
[/quote]

Sorry I've been learning to speak coach.
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When your receivers can't get separation on long routes as Cosell says then Cam should have
altered the game plans and added some short routes . How bout some rub passing plays to free
Torrey or Jacoby for some 8-10 yard gainers .

Problem is Cam was rigid and not flexible with the play calling .
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[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1355364302' post='1259757']
People saying short routes cannot be infused into our offense in such short notice are funny! Its not re-inventing something crazy here...we're just talking about short routes and using the middle of the field. This, along with situational play calling, will change from this point forward!
[/quote]

Dude, the complexity of 4 step curls, WR screens and telling a guy to run fast forward three steps and then cutting diagonally cannot be understated!
Cam saved us from such complexity by telling everyone to run in a straight line as fast as they can,,,
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[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1355369335' post='1259838']
Dude, the complexity of 4 step curls, WR screens and telling a guy to run fast forward three steps and then cutting diagonally cannot be understated!
Cam saved us from such complexity by telling everyone to run in a straight line as fast as they can,,,
[/quote]


TROLOL I love sarcasm....
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[quote name='HomeoftheBRAVENS' timestamp='1355370626' post='1259852']
TROLOL I love sarcasm....
[/quote]

You'll love me then, lol
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I love the part where he says "My guess is all these things are in the playbook." Even he admits he's not sure how much of Cam's playbook was written after 1954 B)
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@ratedr.....great interview and analysis of the offense. thanks for the link.

~Mili
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[quote name='CalvinSmoke' timestamp='1355364604' post='1259760']
Actually Joe does move, he's just too big. Big easy target, the people that we give a lot of credit to for their movement are typically smaller QBs, Drew Brees, Matt Hasselback, and Joe Montana was a master. They can squeak by and dodge defenders
This is not an excuse for joe, it just is what it is, when your big like he is you have to be strong to break those hand/arm tackles much like Big Ben.
[/quote]

Assuming you quoted the wrong person, seeing that I didnt mention one thing about Joe moving in or out of the pocket.
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I'm big on listening to what people say, as i feel certain words tell you everything you need to know about what that person's saying. Two things i've heardeitherothers from Caldwell or about him is....

He said that the good thing about the OC position here is that there are so many smart offensive caoches and they plan to use them. The second thing is, it was said that Caldwell is a great facilitator.

The reason why those two things are big for me is because it seems to be the direct opposite of Cam. I think Cam is a great offensive mind, but reports are that he was a glory hog that didn't like much input. Caldwell saying they plan on using these great offensive minds leads me to believe that Cam didn't.

Being a great facilitator is important because as an OC your job is just to put guys in the best position to win, which against Cam seemed to struggle with. This is also important because it suggests that you aren't afraid to take input from others on how to improve.

A lot of people are saying that Caldwell won't be able to change much, because he hasn't been here long. Well that's not necessarily true, because coaches like Will Montgomery, Criag Ver Steeg, Jim Hostler, and Wade Herman have been around for a long time. Not only do these coaches know each player's skill set really we'll, these are the same guys who were reported shutout by Cam.

So now with Caldwell being great facilitator, he should be able to use the knowledge from these coaches to say ok, this is what each guy does well, how can we incorporate this into the game plan.

It's not that Cam's offense didn't have short routes and the basic routes we've all been clamoring for, he just didn't call them consistently. You now have to hope that you've had a coaching staff all along that realized that you have a lot of run after the catch guys and they'll finally start putting game plans together that actually uses their talents, instead of trying too get them to fits a certain system
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[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1355365859' post='1259793']
arnie hit on this in another thread, but there's no pocket to move around in. Guys are getting destroyed on the edge, especially Oher, and Birk is old and gets dominated making it difficult to step up. The only one pulling his weight is Yanda, and he's hurt. This line has sorely missed Ben Grubbs.



Sorry I've been learning to speak coach.
[/quote]

On a lot of sacks that Flacco has taken, there has been a decent pocket for him but the awareness to move up in the pocket or a little to the left or the right like Brady and Manning do is lacking in his part. If Brady and Manning just stood there like Flacco, they would get sacked a lot more than they do. You got to know that speed rushers will get around our tackles from time to time but if you stepped up in the pocket, it would help our tackles to realign on the block like several other QBs do.
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