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Greg Cosell on the dismissal of Cam Cameron


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#1 ratedr

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:29 PM

Greg Cosell was interviewed by WNST. For those who don't know who he is, he's a senior producer at NFL Films. He watches every snap of every game (unlike most "analysts" who just watch highlights), so he's definitely credible. He has been openly critical of Cam Cameron in the past.

The opening blurb of the interview, directly transcribed by me:

I think that the schemes and the approach that you see on film - so this is not a value judgment on my part, this is what the tape shows - I think what you see on film does not necessarily help Flacco be a consistent player. I think you have to understand what kind of QB he is, and then you tailor things to him and to your receiving core, and I think there's been a little bit of a disconnect...

I think that you're dealing with a receiving core that, now for a number of years, has not been very good winning against man coverage. This team gets a lot of man coverage. Combine that with the fact that the passing game, for the most part, is an intermediate to downfield passing game - there's not a lot of short, relatively easy throws...

Put those things together, and put in the fact that Flacco - who has a big-time arm and can make any throw - does not have probably among the best internal clocks of any QB in the league. That would not be his strength. So when you're asking him to make deeper throws against man coverage to receivers who are not giving him good indicators because they're not winning, then he ends up often standing in the pocket, holding the football. He's not a movement guy - he's not a statue, but he's certainly not a movement guy - so all this feeds on itself and leads to inconsistency both in terms of passing game numbers and the overall play of Flacco.


The full audio can be heard here: http://wnst.net/audi...acco time clock
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#2 Bravens292

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:40 PM

great analysis but what is it going to take for us to finally have shorter route combinations. i have faith caldwell is smart enough to know that.
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#3 dhstandard

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:44 PM

I'd expect to see most of these changes in the off-season. You don't suddenly incorporate a bunch of short pass plays overnight. I'm sure a large part of it is just making sure you call those plays but unless Caldwell was told when he was hired to expect to take over, I don't think he knows all the strengths and weaknesses of our offense.

I know Cam was pretty awful at a lot of things but he wasn't just plain stupid. Caldwell is just taking the reigns of what Cam built. I'd like to see Norv Turner bring in his version of Air Coryell and show us how it's supposed to be done.

Edited by dhstandard, 12 December 2012 - 07:45 PM.

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#4 ratedr

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:49 PM

I'd expect to see most of these changes in the off-season. You don't suddenly incorporate a bunch of short pass plays overnight. I'm sure a large part of it is just making sure you call those plays but unless Caldwell was told when he was hired to expect to take over, I don't think he knows all the strengths and weaknesses of our offense.

I know Cam was pretty awful at a lot of things but he wasn't just plain stupid. Caldwell is just taking the reigns of what Cam built. I'd like to see Norv Turner bring in his version of Air Coryell and show us how it's supposed to be done.

No on Norv Turner from me. Rivers is struggling this year for the same reason Flacco is so inconsistent: his line can't protect for the deep routes. Not to mention that the system requires tall, fast receivers. Vincent Jackson left SD, and look what happened.

I'd rather see Ken Whisenhunt or Pat Shurmur.
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#5 T3hRaven

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:51 PM

I know Cam was pretty awful at a lot of things but he wasn't just plain stupid. Caldwell is just taking the reigns of what Cam built. I'd like to see Norv Turner bring in his version of Air Coryell and show us how it's supposed to be done.


Short routes and the Coryell do not mix. Norv will run the same broken system Cam ran, but maybe slightly better. It's a broken system, let's switch completely. Get it out of your heads people, Norv Turner is not the savior.

But awesome analysis as always from Cosell, he's the best. Great listen.
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#6 RavensAllTheWay

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:55 PM

Flacco stands in the pocket too long. He's good outside the pocket, and his mobility is very underrated, he just doesn't use it enough.
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#7 Bravens292

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:57 PM

i don't like the air coryell whatsoever. i hope our new coordinator (or jim) has no previous background of anything Air Coryell. please stop the norv turner crap. we don't have tall receivers, we don't have the line for the deep routes, and norv has nothing different than cam other than smarter playcalling.
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#8 HoldingCall

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:59 PM

I'd expect to see most of these changes in the off-season. You don't suddenly incorporate a bunch of short pass plays overnight. I'm sure a large part of it is just making sure you call those plays but unless Caldwell was told when he was hired to expect to take over, I don't think he knows all the strengths and weaknesses of our offense.

I know Cam was pretty awful at a lot of things but he wasn't just plain stupid. Caldwell is just taking the reigns of what Cam built. I'd like to see Norv Turner bring in his version of Air Coryell and show us how it's supposed to be done.


I'd rather give Caldwell a chance first, since that's who the Ravens have chosen.
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#9 ratedr

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:00 PM

lol @ me and T3hRaven getting negged for saying "no Norv." It's alright Norv, you'll get a job somewhere, we have nothing personal against you.
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#10 i82much

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:20 PM

Short routes and the Coryell do not mix.


Why? Yes, it is a vertical offense, but I don't see anything inherently that keeps you from throwing some short passes. On some level every offense is a hybrid of various concepts.
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#11 jimmypowder

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:38 PM

When your receivers can't get separation on long routes as Cosell says then Cam should have
altered the game plans and added some short routes . How bout some rub passing plays to free
Torrey or Jacoby for some 8-10 yard gainers .

Problem is Cam was rigid and not flexible with the play calling .
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#12 T3hRaven

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:42 PM

Flacco stands in the pocket too long. He's good outside the pocket, and his mobility is very underrated, he just doesn't use it enough.


He stands in the pocket because he's a pocket passer. If he was protected the way he should be the offense would be very different. He's ok outside the pocket, but quarterbacks shouldn't be making their living like that. Brady doesn't, Manning doesn't, and those are the type of QBs I want.

Why? Yes, it is a vertical offense, but I don't see anything inherently that keeps you from throwing some short passes. On some level every offense is a hybrid of various concepts.


Offensive systems are designed to do certain things and attack certain aspects of a defense. The Coryell is designed to attack deep, from a philosophical perspective. That's the mentality of the offense, and that's why the plays are called the way that they are. Norv's and Cam's systems really aren't that different, and you can see that they don't work. I for one am going to be extremely pissed if we bring in Norv Turner because we could've stayed the same with Cam. We're wasting years of Flacco's career by not solving a problem that's really easy to solve. Our personell does not fit the Coryell right now, and we've been trying to do that for 5 years now and it doesn't work because the Coryell is a very personell specific system. It does not work if it's not set up exactly right. I'm inclined to think we'd never get the right personell for it.
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#13 CosmicRedPanda

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:57 PM

Very interesting listen, thanks for posting it.

I guess I will join the "Neg No Norv" train as well. We'll see what Caldwell provides. People give him a lot of smack cause he seems rather "emotionless" and people have the misconception that Manning "ran the show" in Indy for him -- not the case. Living in Indy, Caldwell had just as much influence, if not more, than Dungy.

The only thing I don't want to see is Harbaugh AND Caldwell both walking up and down the sideline not doing much of anything. One, it'd be weird, like out of The Shining... Two, I would've rather stayed with Cam if that were the case.

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#14 admartian

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:58 PM

Yeah I say no to Norv. Let's get coach Whiz (wishful thinking) instead or Gailey or whoever is better at mixing things up.


EDIT:

Oh, and Cosell is absolutely on point. I see this with Joe as well. I think this is why the no huddle works best for him because he can adjust as needed and call more quick throws.

Edited by admartian, 12 December 2012 - 08:59 PM.

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#15 redrum52

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:03 PM

He stands in the pocket because he's a pocket passer. If he was protected the way he should be the offense would be very different. He's ok outside the pocket, but quarterbacks shouldn't be making their living like that. Brady doesn't, Manning doesn't, and those are the type of QBs I want.



Offensive systems are designed to do certain things and attack certain aspects of a defense. The Coryell is designed to attack deep, from a philosophical perspective. That's the mentality of the offense, and that's why the plays are called the way that they are. Norv's and Cam's systems really aren't that different, and you can see that they don't work. I for one am going to be extremely pissed if we bring in Norv Turner because we could've stayed the same with Cam. We're wasting years of Flacco's career by not solving a problem that's really easy to solve. Our personell does not fit the Coryell right now, and we've been trying to do that for 5 years now and it doesn't work because the Coryell is a very personell specific system. It does not work if it's not set up exactly right. I'm inclined to think we'd never get the right personell for it.


Being a socket passer is no excuse for not moving in the pocket. You're still suppose to maneuver around, step up in it or aide to side. Show that you are somewhat aware of what's happening around you. Everyone tries to give the line a bad rap but the truth is Joe just messes up sometimes and not all those sacks are on the guys up front.

Cossell is on point though and has been saying this about Cam for a while now.

Edited by redrum52, 12 December 2012 - 09:05 PM.

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#16 1/28/01

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:05 PM

People saying short routes cannot be infused into our offense in such short notice are funny! Its not re-inventing something crazy here...we're just talking about short routes and using the middle of the field. This, along with situational play calling, will change from this point forward!
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#17 CalvinSmoke

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:10 PM

People saying short routes cannot be infused into our offense in such short notice are funny! Its not re-inventing something crazy here...we're just talking about short routes and using the middle of the field. This, along with situational play calling, will change from this point forward!

Actually Joe does move, he's just too big. Big easy target, the people that we give a lot of credit to for their movement are typically smaller QBs, Drew Brees, Matt Hasselback, and Joe Montana was a master. They can squeak by and dodge defenders
This is not an excuse for joe, it just is what it is, when your big like he is you have to be strong to break those hand/arm tackles much like Big Ben.
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#18 RavensAllTheWay

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:10 PM

I want to see Tommy Streeter involved next season.
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#19 i82much

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:16 PM

He stands in the pocket because he's a pocket passer. If he was protected the way he should be the offense would be very different. He's ok outside the pocket, but quarterbacks shouldn't be making their living like that. Brady doesn't, Manning doesn't, and those are the type of QBs I want.



Offensive systems are designed to do certain things and attack certain aspects of a defense. The Coryell is designed to attack deep, from a philosophical perspective. That's the mentality of the offense, and that's why the plays are called the way that they are. Norv's and Cam's systems really aren't that different, and you can see that they don't work. I for one am going to be extremely pissed if we bring in Norv Turner because we could've stayed the same with Cam. We're wasting years of Flacco's career by not solving a problem that's really easy to solve. Our personell does not fit the Coryell right now, and we've been trying to do that for 5 years now and it doesn't work because the Coryell is a very personell specific system. It does not work if it's not set up exactly right. I'm inclined to think we'd never get the right personell for it.


I'm not saying you're wrong, but that sounds mostly like a bunch of vague generalities.
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#20 jaege

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:28 PM

People saying short routes cannot be infused into our offense in such short notice are funny! Its not re-inventing something crazy here...we're just talking about short routes and using the middle of the field. This, along with situational play calling, will change from this point forward!



Really. Its not like our WRs don't know how to run short routes or that Joe cannot throw into to a short route. How hard can it be?
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