Dean Pees Next In Line?

[K-Dog]

This thread makes my head hurt.

People are giving Pees "one last chance " against Peyton Manning !?!?!?!?!?!
What in the name of all that is good do you expect to see?
What could possibly happen to appease your opinion?

Peyton picks apart the VERY BEST , fully healthy, defenses in this league.
Even at our BEST, with far better players, far better coordinators, and far healthier team, Peyton has STILL picked us apart.
If its gonna take a shut out or no TD's you are BEYOND unrealistic.

I said it before and I will say it again, people are expecting Ferrari results from an ice cream truck.
Get real people.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='K-Dog' timestamp='1355276901' post='1258627']
This thread makes my head hurt.

People are giving Pees "one last chance " against Peyton Manning !?!?!?!?!?!
What in the name of all that is good do you expect to see?
What could possibly happen to appease your opinion?

Peyton picks apart the VERY BEST , fully healthy, defenses in this league.
Even at our BEST, with far better players, far better coordinators, and far healthier team, Peyton has STILL picked us apart.
If its gonna take a shut out or no TD's you are BEYOND unrealistic.

[b]I said it before and I will say it again, people are expecting Ferrari results from an ice cream truck.
Get real people.[/b]
[/quote]
This game has shootout written all over it. And I can do that pshh... With nitros!
(Drives car down road, gets pulled over going at 210 MPH, gets arrested for being underage, not leagally being able to drive, no lisence in posession, and illegal use of nitros.... Oh and a $400 for speeding)....

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1355271198' post='1258532']
What was Pees supposed to adjust? The talent level of Kruger, Upshaw, Kindle, and McClellan? Lol.
The issue is talent, not scheme, and you're blind not to see it.

Also, Cam set records in San Diego. Good try though!

Pees left of his own accord. He wasn't fired. He coached a few top 10 defenses while in New England. Good try again! Play again?
[/quote]
Upshaw is an unkown, Kruger is meh at coverage, McClellan went undrafted for a reason, and Kindle was unfortunante.

[Fang]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1355271198' post='1258532']


What was Pees supposed to adjust? The talent level of Kruger, Upshaw, Kindle, and McClellan? Lol.
The issue is talent, not scheme, and you're blind not to see it.

Also, Cam set records in San Diego. Good try though!

Pees left of his own accord. He wasn't fired. He coached a few top 10 defenses while in New England. Good try again! Play again?
[/quote]

Oh please. Pees said he left New England to "pursue other opportunities". He left a defensive coordinator position with the best team in football to be a linebackers coach, an obvious step backwards. New England was moving towards a more youthful defense during his departure. Perhaps working with young talent isn't his thing which would explain why the Ravens D is horrible. Nice try though. But the Ravens rankings this year would prove you wrong.

[Latch]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1355194629' post='1257219']


Again....who is bringing the pass rush? Upshaw and Kruger....Our defense isn't like the old times, too many injuries and too young.
[/quote]

If by 'too young' you mean the average age is below 35, yeah, they're a little younger this year. Have you seen Kruger and Art recently? They don't bring huge pressure, sure, but it's better than nothing. I actually think the D Line has been performing pretty well all things considered.

[The Raven]

[quote name='Fang' timestamp='1355324794' post='1258985']
Oh please. Pees said he left New England to "pursue other opportunities". He left a defensive coordinator position with the best team in football to be a linebackers coach, an obvious step backwards. New England was moving towards a more youthful defense during his departure. Perhaps working with young talent isn't his thing which would explain why the Ravens D is horrible. Nice try though. But the Ravens rankings this year would prove you wrong.
[/quote]

How do they Ravens ranking prove Pees is the problem? The problem is very blatantly the lack of talent...

[nextgen_RavensFan]

I do not think Pees is the issue on defense it is the players who are not that good. Our best LB (Ellerbe) is out and we have a patch work defense. Our corners are 2nd tier in all areas. The only bright spot on the D'line is Ngata, Cody is just awful. Reed seems to lay back waiting for the loose ball most times. No one is playing well on defense but a few. Kruger is stepping up, Graham is holding his own most times and as always Pollard will lay you out.

Defensive weak spots:

C. Williams
J. Smith when healthy is a disaster.
T. Cody is just WOW awful.
Upshaw has shown a few bright glimpses but all in all he cannot seal the edge and lacks power.

How can Pees make a decent game plan with less then average tools to work with ? Our players are just not good enough to stop the NFL talent of any offense. We lost to Batch and some third stringer for the Dead Skins. We could not be any worse on defense without fielding a bunch of Kindles. No one tackles, at times itis like our pass coverage is non existent and our pressure is the worst in the league i am guessing.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='nextgen_RavensFan' timestamp='1355331675' post='1259117']
I do not think Pees is the issue on defense it is the players who are not that good. Our best LB (Ellerbe) is out and we have a patch work defense. Our corners are 2nd tier in all areas. The only bright spot on the D'line is Ngata, Cody is just awful. Reed seems to lay back waiting for the loose ball most times. No one is playing well on defense but a few. Kruger is stepping up, Graham is holding his own most times and as always Pollard will lay you out.

Defensive weak spots:

C. Williams
J. Smith when healthy is a disaster.
T. Cody is just WOW awful.
Upshaw has shown a few bright glimpses but all in all he cannot seal the edge and lacks power.

How can Pees make a decent game plan with less then average tools to work with ? Our players are just not good enough to stop the NFL talent of any offense. We lost to Batch and some third stringer for the Dead Skins. We could not be any worse on defense without fielding a bunch of Kindles. No one tackles, at times itis like our pass coverage is non existent and our pressure is the worst in the league i am guessing.
[/quote]
Upshaw can actually seal the edge quite well. He just can't pass rush. There's a two fold reason why the rush D got better when Suggs came back. It knocked Kruger out of being a 3 down LB (he was god awful in the first 6 weeks) and moved Upshaw into a 1st and 2nd down role.

[Fang]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1355331075' post='1259094']


How do they Ravens ranking prove Pees is the problem? The problem is very blatantly the lack of talent...
[/quote]

Well, this is a discussion we could have forever. I understand we lost players to FA and injury. But I still think Pees is part of the problem and not the solution. If he were that good I think he'd still be in New England.

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='nextgen_RavensFan' timestamp='1355331675' post='1259117']
Defensive weak spots:

C. Williams
J. Smith when healthy is a disaster.
T. Cody is just WOW awful.
Upshaw has shown a few bright glimpses but all in all he cannot seal the edge and lacks power.
[/quote]

I don't think its fair to cast Upshaw out quite yet, he's still developing. Kemoeatu is usually playing NT and he is probably the worst in the league at the position, and is little more than a body on the field. Cody isn't terrible at stopping the run, which is what an NT's primary job is, and should really be on the field more. Smith has been disappointing and Cary is bad, losing Webb hurt this team a lot. I hope he's able to come back healthy next season.

[jazz1988]

[quote name='Fang' timestamp='1355248157' post='1258039']
[size=6][sub]Dean Pees needs to go also. Losing Suggs doesn't mean we should drop from 3rd to the bottom of the league. We lost Suggs back in the winter so it's not like Pees didn't have time to adjust. The defense was being sliced even when we had Ray, Webb, Jimmy Smith and everyone else healthy. [/sub]

[sub]I think John Harbaugh is a very good coach. But assuming he picks his own coordinators, I think he needs improvement in that area. I don't understand the approach in the NFL where coaches bounce from team to team having failed in their prior job. Why was Cam hired when he didn't exactly light it up on San Diego and then was fired after a 1 year head coaching stint. Why is Dean Pees our defensive coordinator when Bill Belichick didn't seem to think he was worth keeping? Bill Belichick is the guy we're trying to beat and we hire his cast-off D coordintator. It makes no sense to me.[/sub]

[sub]Whatever this hiring trend is of coaches it has to stop. We now have two coordinators in Caldwell and Pees who were essentially fired by their previous teams.[/sub][/size]
[/quote]



You do know that when Cam was the offensive coordinator of the chargers their offense was ranked number one in the league.You do know that Pees wasnt fired from the patriots he resign

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1355271198' post='1258532']
What was Pees supposed to adjust? The talent level of Kruger, Upshaw, Kindle, and McClellan? Lol.
The issue is talent, not scheme, and you're blind not to see it.

Also, Cam set records in San Diego. Good try though!

Pees left of his own accord. He wasn't fired. He coached a few top 10 defenses while in New England. Good try again! Play again?
[/quote]

I was a former pees hater, but now I just think the injuries have been too much.

Having said that, if you think talent is the issue with this D, wouldn't you say that the abundance of talent made Cam look great in SD? (LT and Gates in their primes, VJ)

[K-Dog]

[quote name='Fang' timestamp='1355341452' post='1259353']
. If he were that good I think he'd still be in New England.
[/quote]

based on that logic Pagano would still be in Baltimore right ?

[allballs]

[quote name='acosta2277' timestamp='1355182586' post='1256758']
With Cam Cameron fired, is Dean Pees next to get fired? I really want him fired. I know its not a "nice" thing to say, but i want him to never have a coaching job down to the pop-Warner level ever again. He has taken this once "Great" defense and made them horrific. Ill give him a little slack we have a bunch of injuries. But even at our healthiest, our defense was still nearly invisible. The bottom line is that, were making major adjustments to our coaching staff, and Dean Pees needs to be apart of one of our adjustments.
[/quote]

i don't think its pees for now, its the lack of experience and talent . this causes veterans to overplay because they don't fully trust the inexperienced talent. when you look at ray out, i mean since he been out, we've really took a dive, now people really see how valuable he is on the field. ok, ray, webb, suggs, then you add jimmy smith, kindle who is still a work in progress, mcadoo who blew is achilles, then you put in some unproven dbs, mediocre linebackers we got a d thats breakable, but still acutually good enough to keep us in games, BUT, joe flacco must not turn over the ball. period. in every loss he's had a turnover at a crucial moment. i would give pees at least 1 more season, if we could have foxworth (tragic loss) and webb at db, pollard and reed, then ray and suggs, with ngata anchoring that d-line, we could do 2000 things. our d has taken some major hits over the past few years, but we've still been above average, til now

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='allballs' timestamp='1355429842' post='1260357']
i don't think its pees for now, its the lack of experience and talent . this causes veterans to overplay because they don't fully trust the inexperienced talent. [b]when you look at ray out, i mean since he been out, we've really took a dive, now people really see how valuable he is on the field.[/b] ok, ray, webb, suggs, then you add jimmy smith, kindle who is still a work in progress, mcadoo who blew is achilles, then you put in some unproven dbs, mediocre linebackers we got a d thats breakable, but still acutually good enough to keep us in games, BUT, joe flacco must not turn over the ball. period. in every loss he's had a turnover at a crucial moment. i would give pees at least 1 more season, if we could have foxworth (tragic loss) and webb at db, pollard and reed, then ray and suggs, with ngata anchoring that d-line, we could do 2000 things. our d has taken some major hits over the past few years, but we've still been above average, til now
[/quote]

The defense improved with Ray out until Suggs got hurt again. Ray isn't that much better than McClain/Ellerbe at this stage of his career, or at least not that much better. The one thing Ray does better than anyone else on the team is wrap up and make the tackle when he's there. It's just that he's not often there, and his pass coverage is sub par.

[allballs]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1355429966' post='1260362']
The defense improved with Ray out until Suggs got hurt again. Ray isn't that much better than McClain/Ellerbe at this stage of his career, or at least not that much better. The one thing Ray does better than anyone else on the team is wrap up and make the tackle when he's there. It's just that he's not often there, and his pass coverage is sub par.
[/quote]

how can you say that when immediately after ray left, houston dropped 46 on us, which i basically predicted... mcclain, i give him a lil props because he can actually play Mike, but ellerbe, who 2nd behind Ray, never plays Mike, why? tells me he cant lead and make the defensive calls and change ups etc etc, he cant 'quarterback' the defense. and 59 doesnt shoot gaps, and his attack angles are way bad, let witten run past him for big 1st downs that almost cost us that game, running backs push him back another 2 or 3 yds all day long, he can't ball, sorry, u shouldnt utter those words man, i mean nobody will wear 52 ever again in baltimore.

[The Raven]

[quote name='allballs' timestamp='1355430458' post='1260371']
how can you say that when immediately after ray left, houston dropped 46 on us, which i basically predicted... mcclain, i give him a lil props because he can actually play Mike, but ellerbe, who 2nd behind Ray, never plays Mike, why? tells me he cant lead and make the defensive calls and change ups etc etc, he cant 'quarterback' the defense. and 59 doesnt shoot gaps, and his attack angles are way bad, let witten run past him for big 1st downs that almost cost us that game, running backs push him back another 2 or 3 yds all day long, he can't ball, sorry, u shouldnt utter those words man, i mean nobody will wear 52 ever again in baltimore.
[/quote]

That's an awful lot of criticism for the guy who leads the team in both tackles and sacks.

It's astounding how Ellerbe has more tackles than McClain, but McClain has had more playtime. Not only does he have more tackles, he has [s]15[/s] 2 more, and that's even after this past game, which he missed. That's with injuries. 2 more tackles than McClain, with injuries and less playtime.

Edit: I checked the stats. The stats on nfl.com and the ones on this site are different, so I'll go with the nfl.com stats.

Ellerbe - 81 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 5 starts
McClain - 79 tackles, no sacks, 13 starts.

That's very telling!

[ravensdfan]

I hate our defense right now. I truly do. However, as much as I despise watching us play that soft zone, rush 3 the majority of the time, see our corners play 10 yards off and people just run through us like so much air, Pees gets a pass. The injuries have been crazy on the defensive side of the ball. I doubt we've started the same 11 guys on defense since Week 2. Be on notice though. I'll be first calling for his head if the Mattison-type trend should continue next season.

[The Raven]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1355440427' post='1260507']
I hate our defense right now. I truly do. However, as much as I despise watching us play that soft zone, rush 3 the majority of the time, see our corners play 10 yards off and people just run through us like so much air, Pees gets a pass. The injuries have been crazy on the defensive side of the ball. I doubt we've started the same 11 guys on defense since Week 2. Be on notice though. I'll be first calling for his head if the Mattison-type trend should continue next season.
[/quote]

Rush 3 the majority of the time? Sorry, but I don't think you must have been watching the majority of the time. We have certainly rushed 4 most of the time, it just looks like 3 because our pass rush is anemic.

[T3hRaven]

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I advocate for firing Pees and using the defense's age and lack of talent as an opportunity to switch to the 4-3 in the off-season.

[flynismo]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1355447492' post='1260569']
Maybe I'm alone in this, but I advocate for firing Pees and using the defense's age and lack of talent as an opportunity to switch to the 4-3 in the off-season.
[/quote]

Well considering that the defense is pretty young, and very talented when healthy, you'll have a hard time pulling that off

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1355447899' post='1260575']
Well considering that the defense is pretty young, and very talented when healthy, you'll have a hard time pulling that off
[/quote]

The three pieces that aren't expendable at this point are Ngata, Suggs, and Webb. Ngata can play 4-3 DT and Suggs can play DE. I'm not sure where Upshaw gets placed, but I don't think the move is impossible. I don't think it's likely, this team seems fairly set on the 3-4, but it is possible.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1355447141' post='1260563']
Rush 3 the majority of the time? Sorry, but I don't think you must have been watching the majority of the time. We have certainly rushed 4 most of the time, [b]it just looks like 3 because our pass rush is anemic.[/b]
[/quote]

Yes I know this. I meant to put the 3 or 4 and then was doing 2 things at once and did not go back and edit. However, my point was merely that we do not blitz as much (which I understand to a point) and when we do, the majority of the time they are not disguised well.

The part in bold did make me laugh though.

[Free Agent]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1355447492' post='1260569']
Maybe I'm alone in this, but I advocate for firing Pees and using the defense's age and lack of talent as an opportunity to switch to the 4-3 in the off-season.
[/quote]

I would love to see this. Im a huge fan of the 4-3.

[Fang]

[quote name='K-Dog' timestamp='1355366079' post='1259798']
based on that logic Pagano would still be in Baltimore right ?
[/quote]

That's apple and oranges. Pees left New England as the D coordinator for "new opportunities". He then took a step backwards. Pagano left to become a head coach which is typically a sign that he succeeded at his previous job.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='Fang' timestamp='1355506364' post='1260884']
That's apple and oranges. Pees left New England as the D coordinator for "new opportunities". He then took a step backwards. Pagano left to become a head coach which is typically a sign that he succeeded at his previous job.
[/quote]

Your premise is still flawed. We can speculate all day on the reasons for Pees leaving NE. Maybe it was a differing of opinion or philosophy. Maybe it was due to personnel changes. Two things that are factual are that Pees had success whille in NE and after he left their defense fell apart.

[allballs]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1355433786' post='1260424']
That's an awful lot of criticism for the guy who leads the team in both tackles and sacks.

It's astounding how Ellerbe has more tackles than McClain, but McClain has had more playtime. Not only does he have more tackles, he has [s]15[/s] 2 more, and that's even after this past game, which he missed. That's with injuries. 2 more tackles than McClain, with injuries and less playtime.

Edit: I checked the stats. The stats on nfl.com and the ones on this site are different, so I'll go with the nfl.com stats.

Ellerbe - 81 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 5 starts
McClain - 79 tackles, no sacks, 13 starts.

That's very telling!
[/quote]

well it is, it tells me that it should tell u that it doesnt matter if you start or not. the Mike should never be the leading sacker if you Will (pun intended). (note compare suggs sacks vs rays sacks) . i admire your research, but go further and lets break down 3rd down drive stopping tackles, tackles for loss, and tackles with takeaways, and if you can lets see Yards after Contact on ellerbe, vs mcclain,( and ray if u dare). thats what i least like about ellerbe, he gets driven back, he's always injured, i doubt he gets extended, thats why he's on a 1 year tender now. if mcadoo, kindle were healthy, i think they would have released ellerbe.

[The Raven]

[quote name='allballs' timestamp='1355519201' post='1261040']
well it is, it tells me that it should tell u that it doesnt matter if you start or not. the Mike should never be the leading sacker if you Will (pun intended). (note compare suggs sacks vs rays sacks) . i admire your research, but go further and lets break down 3rd down drive stopping tackles, tackles for loss, and tackles with takeaways, and if you can lets see Yards after Contact on ellerbe, vs mcclain,( and ray if u dare). thats what i least like about ellerbe, he gets driven back, he's always injured, i doubt he gets extended, thats why he's on a 1 year tender now. if mcadoo, kindle were healthy, i think they would have released ellerbe.
[/quote]

Uh, McAdoo and Kindle aren't even the same position dude.

And wait, are you implying that McClain is more physical than Ellerbe? That's a complete joke, man. Jameel got soft!

[berad]

For the record, Kruger is the team's leading sacker - not Ellerbe. Ellerbe was for a while, though.

[The Raven]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1355520186' post='1261059']
For the record, Kruger is the team's leading sacker - not Ellerbe. Ellerbe was for a while, though.
[/quote]

Well, damn. Ya got me. About time Kruger caught up though!