Merged: Pro Bowl Voting - Cary Williams Leading AFC CBs

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1354217324' post='1238066']


Lol Grim i actually thought about the discussion we had about who we'd rather have between Kurger and Cary, when i heard thiss news. Cary is definitely winning the leverage game vs the Ravens right now. Also, with the fact that he's playing well, as the pass rush gets better, his INT numbers probably rise because he'll be able to jump routes the way he likes to.

Plus, the health card can be played. Even though he needed surgery last season, he's the only one of the top 3 CBs to play and start every game the last 2 years.

I think both Kruger and Cary are making it hard on Ozzie with their recent play
[/quote]
Kruger has started to look very dominant. I'm impressed. My issue with him is we just drafted Upshaw, Suggs under contract, have McAdoo in the wings, McClellan too, etc. Then again, you can never have enough pass rushers. As well all know too well after this year.

Then again, Williams' play has elevated. Leading the AFC in interceptions is impressive. His play has tightened up after a rough start. We can say surgery affected him, played hurt, rusty, no pass rush and no CB can hold without a pass rush.

My problem with Williams is his game started to tighten up with Suggs' return. This also happened to be the point when Kruger's game tightened, too. It gives me concern that they need those players to be effective. It's a team game, so it's a minor peeve regardless after all Lewis was playing poor with an ineffective DL.

I guess if it's between Kruger & Williams I must side with Kruger, because while he has struggled I think it is harder to be an effective pass rusher than CB considering what the Giants have done with an average secondary. Also, I trust Kruger more than Williams. I also believe we are deeper at CB than OLB. It's also true than a very good pass rush makes the secondary better.

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1354124907' post='1237154']
It's crazy sometimes. No doubt Pollard should be ahead of Troy since Hairball has done nothing this season when he did play and mostly has just guarded the bench.
[/quote]

LMAO....hair ball really cracks me up. He's been out so many games if he gets in Ray better too!

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1354320569' post='1239127']

Kruger has started to look very dominant. I'm impressed. My issue with him is we just drafted Upshaw, Suggs under contract, have McAdoo in the wings, McClellan too, etc. Then again, you can never have enough pass rushers. As well all know too well after this year.

Then again, Williams' play has elevated. Leading the AFC in interceptions is impressive. His play has tightened up after a rough start. We can say surgery affected him, played hurt, rusty, no pass rush and no CB can hold without a pass rush.

My problem with Williams is his game started to tighten up with Suggs' return. This also happened to be the point when Kruger's game tightened, too. It gives me concern that they need those players to be effective. It's a team game, so it's a minor peeve regardless after all Lewis was playing poor with an ineffective DL.

I guess if it's between Kruger & Williams I must side with Kruger, because while he has struggled I think it is harder to be an effective pass rusher than CB considering what the Giants have done with an average secondary. Also, I trust Kruger more than Williams. I also believe we are deeper at CB than OLB. It's also true than a very good pass rush makes the secondary better.
[/quote]

I think the biggest against Cary is the quality depth at CB. I still think Jimmy will be a stud and Webb hopefully can come back strong. Asa and Chykie are interesting to me because i think both can play well. Not sure if Graham returns, much like Jossh Wilson, he'll probably be offered a starters role.

I would love to replace Cary with Xavier Rhodes from FSU, and not just because i'm a Noles fan haha. Rhodes is big physical and fast at 6'2" 215lbs. He's the perfect cover corner, that loves to play press man. Not sure the fact Ravens would have a shot at him or even take a CB in the 1st round again.

I agree with you about Kruger. The Ravens have been waiting so long to get that pass rusher opposite Suggs.and they've seemingly found him in Kruger. I don't think Upshaw will impact him staying much. I think Kruger understands and will thrive in his role as a pass rusher. I'm sure he'll have some type of sack incentive in his contract.

I look at the offense and really think they'll just continue to get better and better. If they can start faster, the pass rush would become even more important because teams would pass more to keep pace. If the pass rush is on, corners can sit on routes and just limit things. So I definitely agree that Kruger should be a priority over Cary.

[nextgen_RavensFan]

Does any of our posts explain why the hell cary is getting votes. No, the guy is somehow getting votes. How is he getting these votes ? It cannot be from his play because if anyone watches a game and not just the highlights they would see he is awful. I am amazed and if he is a pro bowler then just stop playing the game all together because how good you are does not seem to matter anymore.

[The Raven]

[quote name='nextgen_RavensFan' timestamp='1354386097' post='1239626']
Does any of our posts explain why the hell cary is getting votes. No, the guy is somehow getting votes. How is he getting these votes ? It cannot be from his play because if anyone watches a game and not just the highlights they would see he is awful. I am amazed and if he is a pro bowler then just stop playing the game all together because how good you are does not seem to matter anymore.
[/quote]

Yes, they do explain it. He has 4 picks, which to non Ravens fans, looks pretty damn impressive. Numerous people have said this, actually.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1354212890' post='1238020']
@Truth..i'm not arguing the fact that Cary is worth of a Pro Bowl, as i feel that has been a joke for about 10 years now. I also don't think you are unfairly judging Cary, he's a solid player that may be held back by his system much like Flacco. Or if a guy like Rex was his coach, he might get completely opposed in press man, we don't know. As you suggested, we as fans can't truly tell because we don't know what was supposed to happen on any given play.

I also don't think Cary is unfairly graded in any of the stats you listed, I personally don't buy into them and that's where my opposition comes from. Not just Cary but the entire system. Again, there were 2 different plays where the Chargers flexed out the RB and it was Rivers last option. The RB caught the ball and was tackled. So to say Cary was targeted 8 times and had 7 completed, would suggest that Rivers picked on Cary much like Brady did and that wasn't the case. I don't know how the "burn percentage" works but i'm guessing having 7 of 8 balls completed isn't good. But Cary didn't play nearly as poor as those numbers would suggest.

As for the play he stopped Alexander short of the 1st down. You can't just dismiss that, again watch the play, i have the game recorded so it's easier for me. However even i can't say what was supposed to happen. For all i kno the coaches could have sent in the play and said...tell Cary to watch the double move or deep route here..which would lead to anything short of the sticks being open and Cary needs to make the tackle. IF, that was his job description, don't get beat deep, come up and make the tackle on any completion, how can you, I or some stat site, determine that Cary failed on the play? That only is why I personally don't pay much attention to sites like that.

I'm willing to bet his coaches praised him for keeping his guy short of the 1st down and giving the defense a shot at getting off the field. The TD, i put on him and i'm sure the fact he gave up a TD and didn't record a int greatly impacted that QBR against Cary

As for the Texans game, i rewatched it. The defense played mostly zone after the 3rd possesion. He gave up some plays to AJ, but for the most part, the Texans had success against the zone. And the TD given up didn't appear to be his fault at all.
[/quote]

Sorry. Didn't see this until now because I figured your post would've been a reply. No arguments here.

I understand your point about the RBs and it's a valid one. Cary did give up two receptions to RBs, which could mar his statistical output somewhat unfairly. When judging statistics, I personally take into account all of the numbers, including the average yards per completion. But on first glance, 7 of 8 does seem worse than the 5 of 6 that he allowed up to WRs.

I'm not dismissing the play itself at all. But I can't give him the credit for their failure in converting the third down. It was an independent effort of our front seven. And just as you've argued that the defense stopped them short of the sticks on third down, thereby Cary did his job, I could just as well argue that had he forced Alexander back towards the ball, the following play would've been a fourth and two and the Chargers would've likely elected the punt. Unfortunately, there's no possible way for me to watch it, so I'm just contending with the theory. However, using your argument would abolish any possible way for an outside source to judge a play correctly, because this question could be used to excuse or cast doubt on any and every evaluation. In other words, our discussion regarding these plays would be completely irrelevant. I understand your point. But I'd rather evaluate off of what we do have available rather than not evaluating at all.

I'd definitely beg to differ, but we wouldn't know. True, although even in taking that play out entirely, it would've been at a 111.8, which is less than ideal.

I don't have access to this game, so I can't contend with the majority of your comments. But I couldn't disagree more about the TD. Cary initially starts out 6 yards behind Pollard, meaning he's automatically aware that there's no help behind him. With the LBs dropping back, aside from possibly Jimmy Smith, it seems that the players are in zone coverage. With Pollard jamming, releasing the WR, and staying in his zone, I would assume that he's liable for the flat. At that moment, it seems that the all-around execution is going rather well. However, instead of squarely backpedaling, Cary seems to guess the route and begins to move horizontally towards the outside, until realizing that Walter is going inside. This gives Kevin Walter just enough separation for the ball to beat Williams by a millisecond. But out of curiosity, who else do you see it falling on?

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1354290054' post='1238732']
He's done well to step up in recent games but let's not pretend he hasn't played poorly even when the pass rush was rolling.
[/quote]When was it rolling? Last year?

[Guest RBates]

I give up some of you guys are never going to understand what it is like to cover a receiver for as long as they have to with no pass rush. Some of our fan base are just haters period. They love to be right on the board but when the probowl nominations come out they switch their tune.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1354441670' post='1240093']
When was it rolling? Last year?
[/quote]

Yep

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1354531147' post='1244349']
Yep
[/quote]i rest my case then.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1354534007' post='1244370']
i rest my case then.
[/quote]

What is your "case" exactly? Webb turned in a great season last year. And from per-play stand-point, Jimmy was solid. Meanwhile, Cary was terrible. This season, Webb was playing just as well before going down, while Cary continued to get lit up.

He's played better in recent weeks and deserves credit for that, but that doesn't make him a good CB.

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1354534457' post='1244374']
What is your "case" exactly? Webb turned in a great season last year. And from per-play stand-point, Jimmy was solid. Meanwhile, Cary was terrible. This season, Webb was playing just as well before going down, while Cary continued to get lit up.

He's played better in recent weeks and deserves credit for that, but that doesn't make him a good CB.
[/quote]Without Cary we drop at least two games ,so he is the difference between 9-3 and 7-5 and he is not a good CB? Wow
We need a better QB

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1354535473' post='1244377']
Without Cary we drop at least two games ,so he is the difference between 9-3 and 7-5 and he is not a good CB? Wow
We need a better QB
[/quote]

Wow. What games would those be? No, he's not a good CB.

Any excuse to bash Flacco, eh? The team can with him.

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1354536022' post='1244380']
Wow. What games would those be? No, he's not a good CB.

Any excuse to bash Flacco, eh? The team can with him.
[/quote]It doesn't mean he is our guy. I cant stand Flacco. He has proven to me when we need him most he will find a way to lose the game. Cary williams on the other hand has won us as many games as our quarterbacjk this seasoin and for an average corner that is sad.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1354542949' post='1244488']
It doesn't mean he is our guy. I cant stand Flacco. He has proven to me when we need him most he will find a way to lose the game. Cary williams on the other hand has won us as many games as our quarterbacjk this seasoin and for an average corner that is sad.
[/quote]

You may not want him to be, but he is. How much he's paid is another matter but he's proven he's a QB worth investing in. If you're willing to overlook the numerous games he's come through in clutch (including the times he's made an on-target throw only to see it dropped), fair enough.

As for Cary, you're delusional. He's made plays and contributed to wins this season, but what you're saying is just ludicrous (as usual).

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1354556931' post='1244899']
You may not want him to be, but he is. How much he's paid is another matter but he's proven he's a QB worth investing in. If you're willing to overlook the numerous games he's come through in clutch (including the times he's made an on-target throw only to see it dropped), fair enough.

As for Cary, you're delusional. He's made plays and contributed to wins this season, but what you're saying is just ludicrous (as usual).
[/quote]The debate can end on that note. I don't know how im delusional when we all see him do the same thing over and over again. Strip -sack -fumble to the same team over and over again.