Merged: Pro Bowl Voting - Cary Williams Leading AFC CBs

[bmore187]

Cary and Pro Bowl mentioned in the same breath is a joke! Ngata and Reed shouldn't go either, im sorry.....I'm all for my Ravens but not when they dont deserve it....

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='K-Dog' timestamp='1354125902' post='1237161']
Cary is significantly better now than early in the season. (Pats game)
[/quote]
I agree here, he has improved. Now if we can cover the Te's we are golden. His last bad game was Houston. We are dangerous when Jimmy comes back, I still think he was having a pro-bowl like season with a growing pain game @HOU

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='K-Dog' timestamp='1354125902' post='1237161']
Cary is significantly better now than early in the season. (Pats game)
[/quote]
I agree here, he has improved. Now if we can cover the Te's we are golden. His last bad game was Houston. We are dangerous when Jimmy comes back, I still think he was having a pro-bowl like season with a growing pain game @HOU

[ravensfan160]

The Pro Bowl is a popularity contest. But Ravens fans know he stinks (granted he has played better recently) so who exactly is voting for the guy? I bet his agent has cast half the ballots himself.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1354134080' post='1237315']
Those numbers aren't always a great indication of how a guy is playing good or bad. I could say that Cary is much better as a press corner, but Pees often has him in off man or zone. If the coverage is Zone and a pass is completed in front of you, that goes down as a completed catch on Williams. By the same token, non throws aren't documented by fans and stats sites. How many times did Rivers wanna throw the ball to the WR Cary was covering but had to look elsewhere? In the case of the TD, that was the perfect route against the defense the Ravens had. Is that really Cary's fault when you have Ed Reed come to the sideline and say a defensive adjustment should have been made? Again, i'm not saying Cary is a stud or perfect. But on the TD, he's supposed to have inside help, so he can afford to play outside leverage. Pollard reacted to the action of the RB and vacated the middle of the field with exposed Cary. Yes Cary gave up the TD, but the design of the play defeated the Ravens defense more then Cary just getting "torch".

Another example is on the same drive, a couple plays before. The Ravens are play off man coverage, which is designed to take away deep routes. The CBs are instructed to just come up and make the tackle on any completion short of 10 yards. Alexander catches a 9 yard stop route, Cary comes up stops him in his tracks and sets up a 3rd and 1. Technically Cary did his job as good as he could within the design of the defense. Actually the defense forced a 4th down the next play but the Chargers went for it instead of kicking the FGA. So Cary did his job, but by the stats and burn percentage, whatever that is, he didn't win on that play.

Another play was when the Chargers flexed Matthews out wide. Cary played about 7 yards off coverage, defense design, Matthews just turned around and Rivers threw him the ball, Cary comes up, makes the tackle 2 yard gain. Is that really a play Cary was "burnt" on?

On Upshaw's sack in the 2nd quarter, Rivers is looking deep to Cary's side of the field, no obviously the camera angle didn't allow us to see down field, so we don't know what was happening. However what was clear was that Rivers wanted to go deep but couldn't because his guy was covered. Does that factor into the burn percentage or Rivers QBR against Cary/ No because the ball wasn't thrown, but Cary clearly had a impact on that play because Rivers was forced to hold the ball and got sacked. Now what if Rivers was foolish enough to attempt the pass and Cary picked it?

All i'm saying is football is about more then just numbers, regardless of how much they try to turn it into a Fantasy League. What was so bad about his performance vs the Texans?
[/quote]

I do believe that Cary is a better press CB as well, and that the off-man coverage could be hindering him to an extent. And I understand your point about non-throws. However, I would assume that at least a portion of the fans do keep track of those when watching the game. Perhaps I'm speaking for myself. He did come up with a huge PD in OT, but I don't recall him being stellar overall otherwise. Also, with regards to the other plays not being accounted for in pure statistics, the only site that I can refer to is ProFootballFocus.com, as they do evaluate every play and grade accordingly. They currently have him with a grade a [color=#ff0000]-2.6[/color], with a [color=#ff0000]-1.0[/color] in coverage. In the case of the TD, Pollard certainly could've done a better job inside. However, I can't absolve Cary of the responsibility. He was badly fooled by a subtle jab step and was completely turned around before Malcom Floyd was even finished with the double move. Should Pollard have played his area better, it likely wouldn't have been a score, but it'd be impossible to assume that it wouldn't have been a reception, and one that would've converted the first down.

I would have to see the play for myself, especially since I'm unaware of the other assignments. But in theory, I can't agree that this result was the best one we could expect in this scenario. Assuming that he backpedaled for a few steps, with the design forcing Cary to keep the WR in front of him, I would predict that Williams was only a few yards shy of Alexander as he stopped on the route. And while Philip Rivers has the accuracy to place the ball where he pleases, his arm strength typically allows at least a moment's time before the pigskin's arrival. With that in mind, without seeing the play again personally, I can't rule out that it wouldn't have been possible for him to reach Alexander before or even as he comes down with the reception. And Cary obviously deserves credit for preventing the first down. But the failed third down conversion doesn't factor much into the equation, because it occurred as a result of an excellent run defense by the front seven, one that was relatively independent of Cary's effort on that specific play. Additionally, a third and one is typically a very favorable situation for an offense. So while the end result of this scenario forced the Chargers' offense into a fourth down situation, when projected onto a broad spectrum, it's more often a negative circumstance for the defense than it is a positive.

This sounds like a very solid play on Cary's part. To counter your following point, I would argue that statistically, with CBs giving up roughly 12 yards per reception on average, a 4 yard catch is typically a win on paper as well. In fact, independently, it amounts to an allowed QB rating of 83.3, which was almost twice lower than what he finished with, so it actually helped his statistical output instead of worsening it.

With regards to the Texans game, he didn't fare too well in coverage. While the camera didn't pan to him, I would also assume that he held his own as well.

But your comments regarding specific plays that wherein he succeeded aren't indicative of my view point. This would have been the case had I implied that Williams doesn't net a single positive play, or anything of the sort. However, his situation isn't much different than the one of other starting CBs. If a CB sees the field extensively, it would be fair to assume that one would expect to see them perform well on at least a portion of the plays. Otherwise, they would likely spend the majority of the snaps on the sideline. It would also be fair to assume that we aren't the only ball-club with lackluster schemes and blown/somewhat poor coverages. And even when a player doesn't have his best performance, there are usually at least a few positive plays on tape. But Cary Williams is judged in the same way as other CBs are, using the exact same scale, so there is certainly a level of fairness in the process. Cary's had his fair share of positive plays. Anyone who argues against this would be simply mistaken. But he's also had his share of bad plays. In my opinion, there have been enough of the latter to prevent him from being labeled as a very good CB. Of course, this term is relative, and I use it sparingly, so there could be a difference in our definitions.

[lowrider]

Not sure if Cary is deserving to be the leading in the polls, but our defense has been looking much better since we played the Texans. Cary Williams has to be given credit, especially with Webb and Jimmy Smith out. Funny how earlier in the year this message board was trying to petition to bench Williams and now he is in pro bowl considerations......

[Purple Nurple]

[quote name='Token' timestamp='1354160711' post='1237701']
I'm happy for him.

I just hope a vote into the pro bowl doesn't give him the idea that he deserves a huge contract.
[/quote]

He already thinks that. He turned down a 15M dollar contract if I'm not mistaken.

[Markus92]

its crazy how much negativity us as ravens fans showed toward cary....Hes playing his best and i commend him...Think about where we would be without him..Congrats bro...

[Militant X 1]

Cary is improving! i like him when he plays jamming the receivers more than giving them that 10-15 yard cushion.

~Mili

[jaege]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1354125476' post='1237158']
Sounds like people need to get over Cary's early season Struggles and finally realize that Cary Williams is a really good CB. Is he lockdown or as good as Webb? No, but he doesn't have to be. Also other then Revis, there probably isn't any true lockdown CBs in the NFL and even he gets help from the refs.

Cary isn't perfect, but the guy is playing his tail off and is becoming better and better. It's a shame that his own fanbase can't get behind the guy. Every week i watch 1 Winning Drive i notice somebody on the sideline challenging Cary to go from good to great. The guy is very talent, but again it's just a shame that we as a fanbase will hold a grudge against a guy for a small stretch of poor play.

So if he is truly leading the Pro Bowl vote, I say Congrats to him.
[/quote]

I have to second this. Early he was questionable, but lately he has really been playing hard. On his man, tackling well, and those interceptions are nothing to sneeze at. You do not see opposing QBs targeting his man anymore, because he is covering better.

[ellicottraven]

It is all about the 'stats' silly!

[jdynamite]

I guess our fans are really hitting the votes. Or other people simply look at INTs and assume oh that's the best CB, lol. Kind of like a few years ago when teams where throwing at the Patriots like crazy trying to catch up and McCourtney caught 7 Ints and it takes skills to catch an INT but sometimes when a DB is being target and picked on by opposing QBs they are bound to have a few balls bounce their way.

Another example of this, this season would be Tim Jennings he leads the league in Ints so yes he deserves a pro bowl vote but early on Teams targeted him early and often because he is shaky in coverage and its easier to pass at him than Tillman and the ball has bounced his way on few plays and his has made some really good pass breakups too, Luck and Skill, but Jennings on the other hand hasn't had games this season where he was abused by a QB repeatedly lol

[Free Agent]

[quote name='Token' timestamp='1354160711' post='1237701']
I'm happy for him.

I just hope a vote into the pro bowl doesn't give him the idea that he deserves a huge contract.
[/quote]

Well he thought he deserved a huge contract after last year...

[Ravensfan23]

@Truth..i'm not arguing the fact that Cary is worth of a Pro Bowl, as i feel that has been a joke for about 10 years now. I also don't think you are unfairly judging Cary, he's a solid player that may be held back by his system much like Flacco. Or if a guy like Rex was his coach, he might get completely opposed in press man, we don't know. As you suggested, we as fans can't truly tell because we don't know what was supposed to happen on any given play.

I also don't think Cary is unfairly graded in any of the stats you listed, I personally don't buy into them and that's where my opposition comes from. Not just Cary but the entire system. Again, there were 2 different plays where the Chargers flexed out the RB and it was Rivers last option. The RB caught the ball and was tackled. So to say Cary was targeted 8 times and had 7 completed, would suggest that Rivers picked on Cary much like Brady did and that wasn't the case. I don't know how the "burn percentage" works but i'm guessing having 7 of 8 balls completed isn't good. But Cary didn't play nearly as poor as those numbers would suggest.

As for the play he stopped Alexander short of the 1st down. You can't just dismiss that, again watch the play, i have the game recorded so it's easier for me. However even i can't say what was supposed to happen. For all i kno the coaches could have sent in the play and said...tell Cary to watch the double move or deep route here..which would lead to anything short of the sticks being open and Cary needs to make the tackle. IF, that was his job description, don't get beat deep, come up and make the tackle on any completion, how can you, I or some stat site, determine that Cary failed on the play? That only is why I personally don't pay much attention to sites like that.

I'm willing to bet his coaches praised him for keeping his guy short of the 1st down and giving the defense a shot at getting off the field. The TD, i put on him and i'm sure the fact he gave up a TD and didn't record a int greatly impacted that QBR against Cary

As for the Texans game, i rewatched it. The defense played mostly zone after the 3rd possesion. He gave up some plays to AJ, but for the most part, the Texans had success against the zone. And the TD given up didn't appear to be his fault at all.

[hawkprey]

Instead of wondering why anyone could like him, how about give the guy some credit? He's stepped up in a big way since the NE game.The hatred for him on this forum has blinded people to the fact that he's been on fire the last 7 weeks. It's the NFL, he's going to give up some passes. It's a lot easier to see that when you're looking for it.

If Webb gives up 2 passes in a game, it's "wow, two exceptions". If Cary does, it's "See, I knew he sucks" twice.

[GrimCoconut]

That sucks. If he makes the Pro Bowl we have no chance of re-signing him.

I'm not his biggest fan but he was playing very well. It helped our chances to get him.

[raybaby]

And this is why the pro bowl is a joke.

[Ravenseconbeast]

Aside from few plays, his doing a good job. His not pro-bowl worthy, but looking at the CBs in AFC, im not really surprised.

His a Ravens, and any Ravens elected to Pro Bowl to show our colors should be celebrated.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1354213690' post='1238030']
That sucks. If he makes the Pro Bowl we have no chance of re-signing him.

I'm not his biggest fan but he was playing very well. It helped our chances to get him.
[/quote]

Lol Grim i actually thought about the discussion we had about who we'd rather have between Kurger and Cary, when i heard thiss news. Cary is definitely winning the leverage game vs the Ravens right now. Also, with the fact that he's playing well, as the pass rush gets better, his INT numbers probably rise because he'll be able to jump routes the way he likes to.

Plus, the health card can be played. Even though he needed surgery last season, he's the only one of the top 3 CBs to play and start every game the last 2 years.

I think both Kruger and Cary are making it hard on Ozzie with their recent play

[nextgen_RavensFan]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1354212890' post='1238020']
@Truth..i'm not arguing the fact that Cary is worth of a Pro Bowl, as i feel that has been a joke for about 10 years now. I also don't think you are unfairly judging Cary, he's a solid player that may be held back by his system much like Flacco. Or if a guy like Rex was his coach, he might get completely opposed in press man, we don't know. As you suggested, we as fans can't truly tell because we don't know what was supposed to happen on any given play.

I also don't think Cary is unfairly graded in any of the stats you listed, I personally don't buy into them and that's where my opposition comes from. Not just Cary but the entire system. Again, there were 2 different plays where the Chargers flexed out the RB and it was Rivers last option. The RB caught the ball and was tackled. So to say Cary was targeted 8 times and had 7 completed, would suggest that Rivers picked on Cary much like Brady did and that wasn't the case. I don't know how the "burn percentage" works but i'm guessing having 7 of 8 balls completed isn't good. But Cary didn't play nearly as poor as those numbers would suggest.

As for the play he stopped Alexander short of the 1st down. You can't just dismiss that, again watch the play, i have the game recorded so it's easier for me. However even i can't say what was supposed to happen. For all i kno the coaches could have sent in the play and said...tell Cary to watch the double move or deep route here..which would lead to anything short of the sticks being open and Cary needs to make the tackle. IF, that was his job description, don't get beat deep, come up and make the tackle on any completion, how can you, I or some stat site, determine that Cary failed on the play? That only is why I personally don't pay much attention to sites like that.

I'm willing to bet his coaches praised him for keeping his guy short of the 1st down and giving the defense a shot at getting off the field. The TD, i put on him and i'm sure the fact he gave up a TD and didn't record a int greatly impacted that QBR against Cary

As for the Texans game, i rewatched it. The defense played mostly zone after the 3rd possesion. He gave up some plays to AJ, but for the most part, the Texans had success against the zone. And the TD given up didn't appear to be his fault at all.
[/quote]

Friend in all honesty you are giving way to many unknowns to compliment Williams. Does a defensive scheme have anything to do with turning your head to play the ball ? Does it have anything to do with a 3 and 4 or 5 and you are playing 10 to 12 yards off of your receivers ? No i do not think so.

The guy simply has bad technique and a ton of bad habits that get him burnt game after game. He is a terrible corner that is 3rd string at the very best and should not be in a pro bowl. The guy does not know the word physical when it comes to slowing down a receiver, he is out of position more then in on plays and if it were not for Pollard and Reed the guy would be a laughing stock on any team. I will not even mention his terrible tackling abilities nor his NFL IQ as he is about as smart as a brick.

You are right on one thing though and that is that the Pro Bowl selection is a joke if he gets in. Our only decent corner is hurt and the rest including J Smith have been disappointments. When we play the likes of Peyton or Eli you will see and i would love to hear your explanations then on how hard people are on the guy.

[nextgen_RavensFan]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1354217324' post='1238066']
Lol Grim i actually thought about the discussion we had about who we'd rather have between Kurger and Cary, when i heard thiss news. Cary is definitely winning the leverage game vs the Ravens right now. Also, with the fact that he's playing well, as the pass rush gets better, his INT numbers probably rise because he'll be able to jump routes the way he likes to.

Plus, the health card can be played. Even though he needed surgery last season, he's the only one of the top 3 CBs to play and start every game the last 2 years.

I think both Kruger and Cary are making it hard on Ozzie with their recent play
[/quote]

You are exactly right. How can you plan a defense with players that cannot do what is expected of NFL players. There are to many players that just are not NFL material and cannot simply execute the game plan and to just name a couple Cary Williams and Mnt Cody. These 2 are probably the worst we have fielded since Walker. Makes me miss a Rolle who was playing hurt and could still cover better then Williams.

[The Raven]

[quote name='nextgen_RavensFan' timestamp='1354217688' post='1238069']
Friend in all honesty you are giving way to many unknowns to compliment Williams. Does a defensive scheme have anything to do with turning your head to play the ball ? Does it have anything to do with a 3 and 4 or 5 and you are playing 10 to 12 yards off of your receivers ? No i do not think so.

The guy simply has bad technique and a ton of bad habits that get him burnt game after game. He is a terrible corner that is 3rd string at the very best and should not be in a pro bowl. The guy does not know the word physical when it comes to slowing down a receiver, he is out of position more then in on plays and if it were not for Pollard and Reed the guy would be a laughing stock on any team. I will not even mention his terrible tackling abilities nor his NFL IQ as he is about as smart as a brick.

You are right on one thing though and that is that the Pro Bowl selection is a joke if he gets in. Our only decent corner is hurt and the rest including J Smith have been disappointments. When we play the likes of Peyton or Eli you will see and i would love to hear your explanations then on how hard people are on the guy.
[/quote]

This is full of fallacies.

First, Cary playing off his receivers is indeed on the scheme. What planet do you live on?

Cary doesn't like to be physical? Someone didn't watch the ravens last season!

Bad technique? I disagree! The only noticeably bad part of his technique is his inability to turn his head. That's it.

How do you judge his football intelligence, by the way? On baseless assumptions? I think yes!

[hawkprey]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1354228431' post='1238259']
This is full of fallacies.

First, Cary playing off his receivers is indeed on the scheme. What planet do you live on?

Cary doesn't like to be physical? Someone didn't watch the ravens last season!

Bad technique? I disagree! The only noticeably bad part of his technique is his inability to turn his head. That's it.

How do you judge his football intelligence, by the way? On baseless assumptions? I think yes!
[/quote] Why do people care how far he plays off the receiver? As long as he gets the job done - which he is.

[The Raven]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1354228605' post='1238264']
Why do people care how far he plays off the receiver? As long as he gets the job done - which he is.
[/quote]

Because it makes absolutely no sense to play off on 3rd and less than 10, or in the redzone. This is a regular occurrence in Pees' system.

[rlh445]

Oh my Lord, really Ravens board? Where were all these Cary Williams 'supporters' in the Cary Williams thread? Right there along with everyone else, throwing him under the bus. I was there too, because at the end of the day Cary's bad play has been way more abundant than his good play and I certainly haven't seen any Pro Bowl caliber playing from him. That's not taking anything away from him, at times he's done what he needs to do and actually gets his head around and makes some plays. Does that mean people should just be like, 'Oh yup, Cary is definitely Pro Bowl material,'? No, and quite frankly it would be disingenuous for anyone to pretend that is the case. Hey, if he actually makes the Pro Bowl I'll put up a gold star for him on my Pro Bowl board and be happy for him but I'm not going to pretend he belongs in the talks of the Pro Bowl, even if it is a joke anymore. Be honest with yourselves and stop chiding those who are truly shocked he would even be in the conversation.

[Guest RBates]

(Poor performance) and Cary Williams in the same sentence? SMH with a horrible pass rush.

[shootyoup]

[quote name='nextgen_RavensFan' timestamp='1354217688' post='1238069']
Friend in all honesty you are giving way to many unknowns to compliment Williams. Does a defensive scheme have anything to do with turning your head to play the ball ? Does it have anything to do with a 3 and 4 or 5 and you are playing 10 to 12 yards off of your receivers ? No i do not think so.

The guy simply has bad technique and a ton of bad habits that get him burnt game after game. He is a terrible corner that is 3rd string at the very best and should not be in a pro bowl. The guy does not know the word physical when it comes to slowing down a receiver, he is out of position more then in on plays and if it were not for Pollard and Reed the guy would be a laughing stock on any team. I will not even mention his terrible tackling abilities nor his NFL IQ as he is about as smart as a brick.

You are right on one thing though and that is that the Pro Bowl selection is a joke if he gets in. Our only decent corner is hurt and the rest including J Smith have been disappointments. When we play the likes of Peyton or Eli you will see and i would love to hear your explanations then on how hard people are on the guy.
[/quote]
"Does it have anything to do with a 3 and 4 or 5 and you are playing 10 to 12 yards off of your receivers ? No i do not think so."
Yes it does. Depending on the coverages that are called, the corners are supposed to be either on the line or back deep in the secondary. This is not arbitrarily determined by the individual corners.

Secondly, we can't use Reed and Pollard as reasons to degrade any of our corners' performances. Pollard is not an exceptional cover safety, and one can argue that the 2008-2010 tandem of a healthier Reed+Landry is superior in coverage and obviously our secondary sucked back then. Assuming you are a big Flacco fan (due to your profile pic), using the safeties to attack the corners is like saying Flacco sucks because Ray Rice does all the work anyways and he has some great receivers and still puts up mediocre stats. I'm sure you have seen that argument before, and I'm sure you pointed out that Flacco is great but handcuffed by Cam and that the receivers drop everything.

[JO_75]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1354126457' post='1237172']
As always, I hope that our players are honored as Pro Bowlers, but I don't want them going to Hawaii... I want their reservations in New Orleans
[/quote]

Me too. I wish they bring back the skills competition, that would be way better to watch than the Pro Bowl.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1354241384' post='1238473']
(Poor performance) and Cary Williams in the same sentence? SMH with a horrible pass rush.
[/quote]

He's done well to step up in recent games but let's not pretend he hasn't played poorly even when the pass rush was rolling.

[beasy2487]

To me, Cary's ceiling is Ike Taylor while Webb's ceiling is Charles Woodson. As we've seen, with a good pass rush Ike can play at as high a level as anyone. Without the pass rush he is exposed. Webb, like Woodson, can create plays, but you don't need that ability to be a great corner. I do think Cary is a little overrated and if Webb didn't get into the pro bowl last year there is no reason Cary should this year, but hey if the guy gets it then props to him.