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Gashman

John Harbaugh

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Great record since taking over the Ravens 5 years ago. He has done well overall, has had the benefit of some good coaches on staff. I was worried early on after he missrd some challenge flag opportunities. Most recently, I have noticed our dumb penalties going down, and the ST Unit vastly improved.
But after seeing the Offense stagnate, when we stacked good players here, is it really Cam we should be looking to, or should Harbs take some blame here? He doesn't call the plays, but you would think he sees how the defense is reacting to our plays, and when things are going south, why is he not more involved in the play calling? I would think this would be top priority. Thoughts?
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From the outside, I always thought Harbaugh seemed a bit soft, as if he's not discliplining his coaches or players well, and letting a lot of things slide.

However, that being said, I only see him talking in press conferences and locker room speeches. There's no way to know how he handles all of the issues that come his way...but he's certainly doing SOMETHING right. It's pretty easy to imagine that his brother is a lot tougher on his coaches and players. Is that the case? I dunno, probably. We'll probably never really know unless they put us on the team. And if they put ME on the team, then they need to fire Harbaugh for sure.
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[quote name='Gashman' timestamp='1353854058' post='1230217']
Great record since taking over the Ravens 5 years ago. He has done well overall, has had the benefit of some good coaches on staff. I was worried early on after he missrd some challenge flag opportunities. Most recently, I have noticed our dumb penalties going down, and the ST Unit vastly improved.
But after seeing the Offense stagnate, when we stacked good players here, is it really Cam we should be looking to, or should Harbs take some blame here? He doesn't call the plays, but you would think he sees how the defense is reacting to our plays, and when things are going south, why is he not more involved in the play calling? I would think this would be top priority. Thoughts?
[/quote]
Harbs needs to tell Cam who's boss.
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Did we fire Billick because the O sucked? No. He was let go because he lost control of the locker room and I don't see that happening with Harbs.

Of course I don't know, but it would seem that within the Ravens' org, the head coach does not have autonomy with the hiring and firing of coordinators. I think he provides input, but the final decisions come from the FO.

That said, I agree that the play calling is more than frustrating at times and you would think that Harbaugh would be providing some direction. But how far do you go before you before you are just stripping the OC of his duties? It seems that this organization is run like any good business. You let people do their jobs and hope that you have made the correct decisions in placing your folks in the right positions. If you don't succeed, you make the changes at a time that makes sense and doesn't disrupt the flow of work.

Even with what most(including me) perceive as crappy game planning, we were one dropped pass away from the SB last year. As an owner or GM looking at that fact it would be a tough decision to scrap your OC and start over. The bottom line is that we are 8 - 2 and in a pretty good position right now. This is no time to rock the boat. Trust the troops and hope you win the war!
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[quote name='Gashman' timestamp='1353854058' post='1230217']
Great record since taking over the Ravens 5 years ago. He has done well overall, has had the benefit of some good coaches on staff. I was worried early on after he missrd some challenge flag opportunities. Most recently, I have noticed our dumb penalties going down, and the ST Unit vastly improved.
But after seeing the Offense stagnate, when we stacked good players here, is it really Cam we should be looking to, or should Harbs take some blame here? He doesn't call the plays, but you would think he sees how the defense is reacting to our plays, and when things are going south, why is he not more involved in the play calling? I would think this would be top priority. Thoughts?
[/quote]

Tread lightly with taking this position friend. I said the same exact thing and was ridiculed by everyone it felt like. I do agree that he has to see the issues with the offense and others say he has a lot of respect for cam and that he would finf it difficult correcting him.

He does need to step in and simply tell cam that he needs to see some changes and some very good results as time is running down and to get deep into the play-offs we need to have our offense on point.
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[quote name='nextgen_RavensFan' timestamp='1353857640' post='1230238']


Tread lightly with taking this position friend.
[/quote]

I hear ya. My wife thinks hes cute, so I would major grief at home if I started slamming him!

That being said, the ravens, Cam in particular, is a computer geek concerning tracking play calling success rate percentages. I am sure Harbaugh has access to our play calling success rate, and also can copy and speak with his brother on Offensive questions. I think there is no excuse for this pathetic offensive play calling. Ultimately it is his responsibility to get it fixed.
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Now that our Offense has shown production using the middle of the field in passing plays, ie; the slant to Torre, will Harbs be on Cam if Cam goes back to turtle mode on the Offensive play calling?

Or, is Harbs smart enough to see what was working on Offense late in the Chargers game, knowing our 3rd down production is horrible, and make sure those types of plays continue?
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Coach Harb, we the Ravens Nation love you, but please, would you be so kind and 'promote' Cam Cameron (the offensive genius he is) to a VIP room upstairs on Sundays. Make sure the room is locked and the key is lost.
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[quote name='awholelottahaloti' timestamp='1353857347' post='1230234']
Did we fire Billick because the O sucked? No. He was let go because he lost control of the locker room and I don't see that happening with Harbs.

Of course I don't know, but it would seem that within the Ravens' org, the head coach does not have autonomy with the hiring and firing of coordinators. I think he provides input, but the final decisions come from the FO.

That said, I agree that the play calling is more than frustrating at times and you would think that Harbaugh would be providing some direction. But how far do you go before you before you are just stripping the OC of his duties? It seems that this organization is run like any good business. You let people do their jobs and hope that you have made the correct decisions in placing your folks in the right positions. If you don't succeed, you make the changes at a time that makes sense and doesn't disrupt the flow of work.

Even with what most(including me) perceive as crappy game planning, we were one dropped pass away from the SB last year. As an owner or GM looking at that fact it would be a tough decision to scrap your OC and start over. The bottom line is that we are 8 - 2 and in a pretty good position right now. This is no time to rock the boat. Trust the troops and hope you win the war!
[/quote]

Ding Ding Ding! You are exactly right and most people can't or just don't understand. The Ravens organization is run like a Family Business actually. The Family part was adpoted by ART and the Business by Mr. B. I don't know how many people listen to Mr. B talk, but i do, because i love hearing the principles that great business owners have.

To your point, Mr. B said himself that he runs the Ravens like he ran his Staffing Firm. Put the right leaders in position and step back, allow them to do what you hired them for. Everything about the Ravens takes on this same approach. Harbs puts trust in his leaders, both coaches and players to do what they are supposed to do. Nothing is more evident of this then the ST units. This is the first year they've been "Elite", but Harbs didn't take over the ST unit because that's his specialty, he allowed Rosburg to continue to work his methods.

Also Harbs has a leadership council among players, Sam Koch said it's the leaders on all three units that come together and calibrate with Harbs on decisions for the team i.e the practice schedule around the holidays. Harbs even went to Ray Lewis about how he was gonna handle the game winning FG attempt against the Chargers.

Harbs is plenty tough on players and coaches imo. He has brought such a great mindset to this team, these guys have been through so much, from injury, death, playing 18 straight games as a rookie coach and still having your team within 2 points late in the game from going to the Super Bowl. This was they year it was all supposed to come crashing down for Harbs, even before all the injuries, yet he's still getting it done.

With 5 games remaining, Harbs has this team in position to earn a 5th consecutive playoff berth, 4 out of 5 double digit wins, 3 consecutive 12 win seasons, 2nd straight year sweeping the division and having a perfect home record. How this guy has never been mentioned as coach of the year is crazy.

I might not agree with everything Harbs have done, but he's perfect for the Ravens and a Top 3 coach in the NFL period
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[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1354035614' post='1235756']


Ding Ding Ding! You are exactly right and most people can't or just don't understand. The Ravens organization is run like a Family Business actually. The Family part was adpoted by ART and the Business by Mr. B. I don't know how many people listen to Mr. B talk, but i do, because i love hearing the principles that great business owners have.

To your point, Mr. B said himself that he runs the Ravens like he ran his Staffing Firm. Put the right leaders in position and step back, allow them to do what you hired them for. Everything about the Ravens takes on this same approach. Harbs puts trust in his leaders, both coaches and players to do what they are supposed to do. Nothing is more evident of this then the ST units. This is the first year they've been "Elite", but Harbs didn't take over the ST unit because that's his specialty, he allowed Rosburg to continue to work his methods.

Also Harbs has a leadership council among players, Sam Koch said it's the leaders on all three units that come together and calibrate with Harbs on decisions for the team i.e the practice schedule around the holidays. Harbs even went to Ray Lewis about how he was gonna handle the game winning FG attempt against the Chargers.

Harbs is plenty tough on players and coaches imo. He has brought such a great mindset to this team, these guys have been through so much, from injury, death, playing 18 straight games as a rookie coach and still having your team within 2 points late in the game from going to the Super Bowl. This was they year it was all supposed to come crashing down for Harbs, even before all the injuries, yet he's still getting it done.

With 5 games remaining, Harbs has this team in position to earn a 5th consecutive playoff berth, 4 out of 5 double digit wins, 3 consecutive 12 win seasons, 2nd straight year sweeping the division and having a perfect home record. How this guy has never been mentioned as coach of the year is crazy.

I might not agree with everything Harbs have done, but he's perfect for the Ravens and a Top 3 coach in the NFL period
[/quote]

I love Harbs. The mental toughness of this team is at an all time high and that is entirely Harbs' doing.
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[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1354035614' post='1235756']
Ding Ding Ding! You are exactly right and most people can't or just don't understand. The Ravens organization is run like a Family Business actually. The Family part was adpoted by ART and the Business by Mr. B. I don't know how many people listen to Mr. B talk, but i do, because i love hearing the principles that great business owners have.

To your point, Mr. B said himself that he runs the Ravens like he ran his Staffing Firm. Put the right leaders in position and step back, allow them to do what you hired them for. Everything about the Ravens takes on this same approach. Harbs puts trust in his leaders, both coaches and players to do what they are supposed to do. Nothing is more evident of this then the ST units. This is the first year they've been "Elite", but Harbs didn't take over the ST unit because that's his specialty, he allowed Rosburg to continue to work his methods.

Also Harbs has a leadership council among players, Sam Koch said it's the leaders on all three units that come together and calibrate with Harbs on decisions for the team i.e the practice schedule around the holidays. Harbs even went to Ray Lewis about how he was gonna handle the game winning FG attempt against the Chargers.

Harbs is plenty tough on players and coaches imo. He has brought such a great mindset to this team, these guys have been through so much, from injury, death, playing 18 straight games as a rookie coach and still having your team within 2 points late in the game from going to the Super Bowl. This was they year it was all supposed to come crashing down for Harbs, even before all the injuries, yet he's still getting it done.

With 5 games remaining, Harbs has this team in position to earn a 5th consecutive playoff berth, 4 out of 5 double digit wins, 3 consecutive 12 win seasons, 2nd straight year sweeping the division and having a perfect home record. How this guy has never been mentioned as coach of the year is crazy.

I might not agree with everything Harbs have done, but he's perfect for the Ravens and a Top 3 coach in the NFL period
[/quote]This. Unlike other organizations where the HC doubles as a coordinator, Harbs' sole purpose is to manage his troops in both the coaching staff and on the roster. He's instilled discipline and accountability and our team has flourished as a result. He reminds me of that father that doesn't get mad and cusses up a storm but just looks at you in a disapproving manner and says, "I'm not angry, just very disappointed." And we all know that is so much worse. I love Harbs' style of coaching and I couldn't see any other coach in the league right now doing a better job at leading our boys to battle (and that includes The Hoddie).
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[quote name='BMORElegacy' timestamp='1354036797' post='1235772']
This. Unlike other organizations where the HC doubles as a coordinator, Harbs' sole purpose is to manage his troops in both the coaching staff and on the roster. He's instilled discipline and accountability and our team has flourished as a result. He reminds me of that father that doesn't get mad and cusses up a storm but just looks at you in a disapproving manner and says, "I'm not angry, just very disappointed." And we all know that is so much worse. I love Harbs' style of coaching and I couldn't see any other coach in the league right now doing a better job at leading our boys to battle (and that includes The Hoddie).
[/quote]

I like how you said boys, because by NFL standards that's what most of this team is, young men. I also love the father comparison because i agree 100%. Yea, you'll see him get in a face now and then like Ellerbe, but for the most part Harbs is reassuring.

People look at him as being soft, but it's just positive reinforcement. You don't always have to point out the obvious bad, we all knew the defense was poor to start the season, but Harbs just reinforced the belief that if they just keep pushing and working hard, everything would come together. Now those guys are playing at a high level even without Ray and Webb.

I love the fact that as a rookie coach, Harbs said the Ravens were building a Dynasty. I feel he's a couple dropped passes away from realizing that goal. Super Bowl rings is the only thing keeping the Ravens from being viewed as a dynasty, but they are oh so close



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Harbs is the best! [size=1]Even though I thought he screwed up big time Sunday, going for it on 4th and not taking the points.[/size]
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If not Harbs, than who comes down on Cam for Crappy game plans? And I mean piss poor 3rd down conversions, same old 9 routes, etc
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[quote name='Gashman' timestamp='1354041328' post='1235854']
If not Harbs, than who comes down on Cam for Crappy game plans? And I mean piss poor 3rd down conversions, same old 9 routes, etc
[/quote]

I agree that Harbaugh needs to let Cam know when he the game plan isnt working. I'd like too see more No Huddle on the road with Joe having more control of tgr offense, and I think Harbs can push for that direction if he wanted to.

However, I come back to what Harbs biggest responsibility, which is to win games. I'm sure he wants to have a better offense, but the #1 priority is winning, even if it means winning ugly. I dont necessarily agree with our offensive philosophy on the road, but it has worked for the most part. Even in the games we lost I could make an argument that the gameplan wasnt bad, but circumstances and poor execution really hurt us when it mattered.
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[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1354035614' post='1235756']
Ding Ding Ding! You are exactly right and most people can't or just don't understand. The Ravens organization is run like a Family Business actually. The Family part was adpoted by ART and the Business by Mr. B. I don't know how many people listen to Mr. B talk, but i do, because i love hearing the principles that great business owners have.

To your point, Mr. B said himself that he runs the Ravens like he ran his Staffing Firm. Put the right leaders in position and step back, allow them to do what you hired them for. Everything about the Ravens takes on this same approach. Harbs puts trust in his leaders, both coaches and players to do what they are supposed to do. Nothing is more evident of this then the ST units. This is the first year they've been "Elite", but Harbs didn't take over the ST unit because that's his specialty, he allowed Rosburg to continue to work his methods.

Also Harbs has a leadership council among players, Sam Koch said it's the leaders on all three units that come together and calibrate with Harbs on decisions for the team i.e the practice schedule around the holidays. Harbs even went to Ray Lewis about how he was gonna handle the game winning FG attempt against the Chargers.

Harbs is plenty tough on players and coaches imo. He has brought such a great mindset to this team, these guys have been through so much, from injury, death, playing 18 straight games as a rookie coach and still having your team within 2 points late in the game from going to the Super Bowl. This was they year it was all supposed to come crashing down for Harbs, even before all the injuries, yet he's still getting it done.

With 5 games remaining, Harbs has this team in position to earn a 5th consecutive playoff berth, 4 out of 5 double digit wins, 3 consecutive 12 win seasons, 2nd straight year sweeping the division and having a perfect home record. How this guy has never been mentioned as coach of the year is crazy.

I might not agree with everything Harbs have done, but he's perfect for the Ravens and a Top 3 coach in the NFL period
[/quote]

This post is just full of awesome. I freaking love this team.
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Harbs is an EZ rider type, and has learned on the job. His next contract will be for big money.

Like him or not, just look up his record. He may leave for big money, if offered.
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[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1354047169' post='1235970']
I'd like to know why G Jah Reid and NT Kemoeatu are still starting.
[/quote]
Who do you suggest starts at LG? We have tried 3 players and none have been overly effective. Reid has the most upside IMO.

As for Kemo, he and Cody pretty much split snaps over the course of the game.
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[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1354047545' post='1235992']
Who do you suggest starts at LG? We have tried 3 players and none have been overly effective. Reid has the most upside IMO.

As for Kemo, he and Cody pretty much split snaps over the course of the game.
[/quote]

Probably Harewood, but I think he's gimpy right now. Reid has struggled the last two games, it really showed in the last game when he couldn't handle Liuget's bullrush and leverage.
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[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1354048626' post='1236026']


Probably Harewood, but I think he's gimpy right now. Reid has struggled the last two games, it really showed in the last game when he couldn't handle Liuget's bullrush and leverage.
[/quote]

I agree that Reid hasnt been great, but Harewood really struggled in pass protection too. I think Reid will improve with more xp and frankly the line could use some continuity heading into the stretch run.
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[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1354035614' post='1235756']


Ding Ding Ding! You are exactly right and most people can't or just don't understand. The Ravens organization is run like a Family Business actually. The Family part was adpoted by ART and the Business by Mr. B. I don't know how many people listen to Mr. B talk, but i do, because i love hearing the principles that great business owners have.

To your point, Mr. B said himself that he runs the Ravens like he ran his Staffing Firm. Put the right leaders in position and step back, allow them to do what you hired them for. Everything about the Ravens takes on this same approach. Harbs puts trust in his leaders, both coaches and players to do what they are supposed to do. Nothing is more evident of this then the ST units. This is the first year they've been "Elite", but Harbs didn't take over the ST unit because that's his specialty, he allowed Rosburg to continue to work his methods.
[/quote]


Of course I'm right.......that's why they pay me the big bucks. :-)
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[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1354048626' post='1236026']
Probably Harewood, but I think he's gimpy right now. Reid has struggled the last two games, it really showed in the last game when he couldn't handle Liuget's bullrush and leverage.
[/quote]

This was my biggest complaint about Reid. He's terrible at getting knee bend. He can't get leverage.
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[quote name='Gashman' timestamp='1353854058' post='1230217']
Great record since taking over the Ravens 5 years ago. He has done well overall, has had the benefit of some good coaches on staff. I was worried early on after he missrd some challenge flag opportunities. Most recently, I have noticed our dumb penalties going down, and the ST Unit vastly improved.
But after seeing the Offense stagnate, when we stacked good players here, is it really Cam we should be looking to, or should Harbs take some blame here? He doesn't call the plays, but you would think he sees how the defense is reacting to our plays, and when things are going south, why is he not more involved in the play calling? I would think this would be top priority. Thoughts?
[/quote]

Harbaugh is definitely going to shoulder the blame because he brought Cam in and from what I've heard, he is the one that is keeping him around. The front office want to move in a different direction.

Harbs said he was going to be more involved in the offense this year and either way, I am not impressed.

Everyone was excited about getting Peyton's old buddy Caldwell too, nothing improved. Still not impressed.

When you take 2 coaches who were head coaches of 1 win or 2 win seasons, your offense is gonna have a bad time...
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[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1354063511' post='1236513']
Harbaugh is definitely going to shoulder the blame because he brought Cam in and from what I've heard, he is the one that is keeping him around. The front office want to move in a different direction.

[/quote]


Hmmm...... curious. Who did you hear this from?
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[quote name='awholelottahaloti' timestamp='1354063672' post='1236519']
Hmmm...... curious. Who did you hear this from?
[/quote]

This was told to me before the beginning of the 2011 season by a friend who has connections to the Cameron family.

I mean, I can see how that isn't 100% fool proof, but it is something I've expected as well. Steve doesn't seem like the kind of guy that settles with such a conservative offense after 5 years. Nor does Oz.
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Boys, keep him. Pull a page outta the dusty 'ole Steelers book and try and hang on to coaches.

Granted they don't, y'know, suck.
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Harbs is definitely an underrated and under-appreciated Head Coach. He's had his "moments," but what coach doesn't? He's a winner and that's all I care about.
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[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1354063836' post='1236524']
This was told to me before the beginning of the 2011 season by a friend who has connections to the Cameron family.

I mean, I can see how that isn't 100% fool proof, but it is something I've expected as well. Steve doesn't seem like the kind of guy that settles with such a conservative offense after 5 years. Nor does Oz.
[/quote]

Steve B came out and personally batted for Cameron, pissed off a lot of fans in the process, too. From the end-of-year presser - [url="http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Ravens-Season-Review-Press-Conference/3B6EC488-F163-4B66-8EE4-6CA7E22D0731"]LINK[/url]

[quote]

[i]Steve Bisciotti stated that offensive coordinator Cam Cameron was on the hot seat last year. Can you fill us in on the decision-making process in retaining him? Does he have a multi-year contract? (Jerry Coleman)[/i]

(NEWSOME) "I always look at a body of work. John and I have discussions consistently during the season about a multitude of things. He'll just come in and we'll try to talk for five minutes, and it can be an hour. And I always take a big-picture view of everything – about how we are going to get better in all three phases. Of course, one of them is on the offensive side of the ball. So, to answer your question, it's not about retaining Cam as much as it is, 'Are we headed in the right direction with this offense?' And Steve has some unbelievable numbers that he just showed me that prove that we are headed in the right direction. Are we satisfied with where we are right now? No. But, we think the best way to get there is to maintain the continuity of having Cam and then to bring in someone like a Jim Caldwell to be another set of eyes with that. As far as the contract, we have dealt with all of our coaches with their contracts. We are dealing with Cam and his contract, and today, I don't foresee a problem with that."[/quote]

and then

[quote]

[i]Steve, what would you say to the people, you just gave a pretty good example of the numbers, but what would you say to the people who are still so vehement in their criticism of Cam and can't look past four playoff appearances, and they think there should be some other candidate out there? (Steve Davis)[/i]

(BISCIOTTI) "This is just a carousel out there. It's like, the Pittsburgh Steelers' offensive coordinator is let go, and then somebody else wants him. And defensive coordinators are going back and forth and are getting fired and re-hired in different spots all the time. It's not like we have a Triple-A system where those people are batting .400 and everybody knows that it's time to move them up to the big leagues. If he can bat .350 in Triple-A, then it's pretty self-explanatory. But to go out and get a position coach and make him an offensive coordinator and find out that he wasn't better than what you had … That's all I'm saying. I'm looking at these trends, and a logical businessman would say that we're making progress. So, I don't know if I have a message for that 10 percent of the fans with that vitriol. I just don't have an answer for them. I just don't. I'm sorry."[/quote]

earlier in the presser he also said:

[quote]
It would be easier to spread the blame and the arrows wouldn't be pointing in one direction or another. I look at the development … Ozzie brought up the numbers – I get to brag about the homework I did (laughter) – I wanted to read to you: We've had, since I've been here, since I took over in 2004 … [The] 2006 [season], of course, was our best year offensively. Before Joe [Flacco] got here, we were 12th in the league in points and we were 17th in yards [in 2006], and we were elated, if you remember. That was the best offensive production that we had had. In the four years from 2004-2007, we were ranked 23rd in yards per game at 296. We've exceeded that all four years with Joe. We were 12th in points in 2006, but we averaged 20th in points per game in years 2004-2007. We were 12th in 2006, with 22 points [per game]. We've outscored that in all four years with Joe. So, if 2006 was the best that we had in the years that I've been here, and I think that goes all the way back to 2000, the average now under Cam [Cameron] and Joe is 12th in points per game and 17th in yards per game. We were 15th last year and 12th [respectively]. So the average of the last four years is better than in 2006. Last year was better than in 2006. So those are some pretty good numbers. I guess what I'm saying is we want to have a better offense, but if you flip the switch too quick, then you're giving up 27 points per game. So, I'm not going to be trading Jimmy Smith and Lardarius Webb for [Cardinals WR Larry] Fitzgerald because that's the quickest way to get there. I think we're making improvement. When you look at 2006, we had a Pro Bowl guy in his 30's and then he got hurt, hurt, hurt in 2007. So we got one good year out of Steve McNair. We got four good years out of Joe; he's trending up. This is the sweet spot for him, Years Five through 10. We think our numbers are going to continue to go forward, and we think Joe and Cam together will get that done in Year Five rather than scrapping that, getting a new offensive coordinator and trying to install a new system. I think they're getting pretty comfortable with each other."[/quote]
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[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1354063836' post='1236524']
This was told to me before the beginning of the 2011 season by a friend who has connections to the Cameron family.

I mean, I can see how that isn't 100% fool proof, but it is something I've expected as well. Steve doesn't seem like the kind of guy that settles with such a conservative offense after 5 years. Nor does Oz.
[/quote]
[quote name='berad' timestamp='1354063937' post='1236530']
Steve B came out and personally batted for Cameron, pissed off a lot of fans in the process, too. From the end-of-year presser - [url="http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Ravens-Season-Review-Press-Conference/3B6EC488-F163-4B66-8EE4-6CA7E22D0731"]LINK[/url]



and then



earlier in the presser he also said:
[/quote]


I'll take door #2.
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