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Gashman

Marshall Faulk slams Cam on NFL Network

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Marshall Faulk says(paraphrased) Because the Ravens rarely use the middle of the field in passing plays, our TE's are anemic, 40 catches ytd, therefore linebackers aren't worried about us in the middle of field, and can pin their ears back and focus on Ray Rice. This forces Joe to look deep more often.
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Funny thing, Cam has barely used the middle of the field in the passing game for 5 years since he's been here. Sometimes I wonder how many passing plays he actually has in his play book utilizing the middle of the field.
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[quote name='Gashman' timestamp='1353256034' post='1221345']
Funny thing, Cam has barely used the middle of the field in the passing game for 5 years since he's been here. Sometimes I wonder how many passing plays he actually has in his play book utilizing the middle of the field.
[/quote]
Two. For each TE.
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I remember earlier in the season they were praising Torre for being able to do more than just run deep, I thought I saw him catching a quick slant for a big gain, but it's been awhile.
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[quote name='Gashman' timestamp='1353255075' post='1221329']
Marshall Faulk says(paraphrased) Because the Ravens rarely use the middle of the field in passing plays, our TE's are anemic, 40 catches ytd, therefore linebackers aren't worried about us in the middle of field, and can pin their ears back and focus on Ray Rice. This forces Joe to look deep more often.
[/quote]

I agree with that.

[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1353256346' post='1221350']
He also said Pitta isn't getting it done...
[/quote]

But not this.
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Brian Baldigner, Ross Tucker, Greg Cosell, and now Faulk. It's funny how at least one national analyst has criticized Cam going back to last year.

Cam definitely deserves some credit for the strides the offense has made this year but I'll always believe he's at the heart of the inconsistency. From underutilizing Torrey, predictable calls and schemes and other issues, he makes things easier for opposing defenses.
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Normally I would agree, but every time we throw over the middle to TEs I see them getting rocked helmet-to-helmet and I hate it. I'm not against the middle of the field or anything, it just feels like we have bad luck with that.
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I see a lot of teams calling quick slants on 3rd downs when lb's vacate the middle to blitz, but not us.
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It comes back to Cam not using PA enough. PA should draw in the linebackers and create a void over the middle. It worked extremely well against Oakland so maybe we will see some more.
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[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1353258160' post='1221369']
Normally I would agree, but every time we throw over the middle to TEs I see them getting rocked helmet-to-helmet and I hate it. I'm not against the middle of the field or anything, it just feels like we have bad luck with that.
[/quote]

I saw that more with Boller/Heap. These days, rules are more receiver friendly, less head hunting.
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[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1353258596' post='1221374']
It comes back to Cam not using PA enough. PA should draw in the linebackers and create a void over the middle. It worked extremely well against Oakland so maybe we will see some more.
[/quote]

We didn't really work the middle of the field against Oakland. Joe averaged 10 yards per play.
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[quote name='PolishRifle' timestamp='1353258806' post='1221378']


We didn't really work the middle of the field against Oakland. Joe averaged 10 yards per play.
[/quote]

Oakland gave us the deep ball by stacking the box, so Cam took it. If LeBeau gives us the middle of the field, will Cam take it?
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[quote name='PolishRifle' timestamp='1353258806' post='1221378']


We didn't really work the middle of the field against Oakland. Joe averaged 10 yards per play.
[/quote]he still through balls into the middle more. Examples dicksons bomb although almost thirty yards was still working the middle of the field.
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I was over Pitta quickly. He's basically a good third down receiver, and he has a big part in the offense, but he's not a 3 down TE and that's what we need.

We really need more from Dickson.
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[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1353259177' post='1221387']
he still through balls into the middle more. Examples dicksons bomb although almost thirty yards was still working the middle of the field.
[/quote]

I think the problem is, that we don't throw quick short passes in the middle. The only way we gain this kind of yardage is by rushing. When defenses take Rice away, we usually go for the long pass rather than trying to run quick slants.
That's where the myth, that Flacco "is holding on to the ball to long" comes from. I am sick and tired of Air Coryell.
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[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1353259287' post='1221389']
I was over Pitta quickly. He's basically a good third down receiver, and he has a big part in the offense, but he's not a 3 down TE and that's what we need.

[b]We really need more from Dickson.[/b]
[/quote]

Do we? A huge reason he's been relegated to more of a blocking role(which he isn't even good at) is because of his spotty hands.
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[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1353259287' post='1221389']
I was over Pitta quickly. He's basically a good third down receiver, and he has a big part in the offense, but he's not a 3 down TE and that's what we need.

We really need more from Dickson.
[/quote]

Because of Dixons dropped passes problems, has that caused a lack of trust from Cam?
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[quote name='PolishRifle' timestamp='1353259486' post='1221393']
I think the problem is, that we don't throw quick short passes in the middle. The only way we gain this kind of yardage is by rushing. When defenses take Rice away, we usually go for the long pass rather than trying to run quick slants.
That's where the myth, that Flacco "is holding on to the ball to long" comes from. I am sick and tired of Air Coryell.
[/quote]

And the funny thing about that is, I don't really think Flacco is holding onto the ball that much this year.
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[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1353259508' post='1221394']
Do we? A huge reason he's been relegated to more of a blocking role(which he isn't even good at) is because of his spotty hands.
[/quote]
His blocking been better, but Dickson can at least get up the seem and is a serviceable blocker. As opposed to Pitta, who is a liability in blocking and is only really good at sitting in zones. He's great at punishing zones, but that's it.
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I remember Trent Dilfer talking about this awhile back. He said most of the elite Offenses in the league utilize a passing "route tree" where one of the routes is normally a slant or crossing route across the middle in most passing plays, but said we rarely have that option in our passing scheme.
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Faulk has been trashing Cam forever now. He's on record saying that he doesn't trust our offense not because of the personnel, but because he doesn't trust Cam's playcalling.
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[quote name='PolishRifle' timestamp='1353258806' post='1221378']
We didn't really work the middle of the field against Oakland. Joe averaged 10 yards per play.
[/quote]

Working the middle doesnt have to mean dinking and dunking. As Arnie pointed out, both completions to Dickson were over the middle. The point of PA is to suck in the linebackers and open up that space behind them.
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[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1353259881' post='1221403']
His blocking been better, but Dickson can at least get up the seem and is a serviceable blocker. As opposed to Pitta, who is a liability in blocking and is only really good at sitting in zones. He's great at punishing zones, but that's it.
[/quote]

Pitta has shown the ability to separate in man coverage as well. Dickson just doesnt have the hands to be a consistent option in the passing offense. His role will continue to be primarily as a blocking TE until he proves otherwise.
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I've said many times that the Ravens need to watch old tapes of the Rams and how Faulk. Was used, because Rice is the same type of player. So i would definitely respect an option on how the offense is being run by Faulk.

I know i'm late to the party, but i've been souring on Cam this year, because he just doesn't seem to know how to use the personnel. I used to say, give Cam the weapons and watch him work, well he has the weapons, but i dont see much improvement, or I should say the type of improvement i expect.

I'll continue to give players their fair share of blame, but I now feel like the Ravens have to follow suit with the Falcons and Steelers, and look to take this offense to the next level.

No reason why all the talent that's on this offense is either not being used or is being mis-used.
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[quote name='PolishRifle' timestamp='1353258806' post='1221378']


We didn't really work the middle of the field against Oakland. Joe averaged 10 yards per play.
[/quote]

Pitta had a TD in the middle, Dickson would have had another if he didn't stumble..
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[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1353261802' post='1221421']


Pitta had a TD in the middle, Dickson would have had another if he didn't stumble..
[/quote]what you call a stumble I thought was a diving well at least outstretched catch
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Flacco's interceptions tend to happen over the middle. It's actually weird that I have never thought about it because whenever I see a pass over the middle just off screen I get extremely nervous and it usually ends up an interception.

Mid range over the middle is vulnerable but if the linebackers read it then it gets picked very very often. High risk high reward type thing.
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[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1353264744' post='1221486']
what you call a stumble I thought was a diving well at least outstretched catch
[/quote]

I feel like he should have been able to keep his footing. either way, semantics. the point is, we used the middle last week with some splash plays.
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[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1353265946' post='1221539']
Flacco's interceptions tend to happen over the middle. It's actually weird that I have never thought about it because whenever I see a pass over the middle just off screen I get extremely nervous and it usually ends up an interception.

Mid range over the middle is vulnerable but if the linebackers read it then it gets picked very very often. High risk high reward type thing.
[/quote]

What are you talking about? Joe isn't the greatest QB but he doesn't throw many interceptions... so, for you to say it usually ends up in a INT is simply not true.
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Run, Run, 3rd and long Pass

Could make it a drinking game but you would be drunk by the end of the first quarter. Maybe drive.
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[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1353265946' post='1221539']
Flacco's interceptions tend to happen over the middle. It's actually weird that I have never thought about it because whenever I see a pass over the middle just off screen I get extremely nervous and it usually ends up an interception.

Mid range over the middle is vulnerable but if the linebackers read it then it gets picked very very often. High risk high reward type thing.
[/quote]
Most interceptions are over the middle.
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[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1353266390' post='1221564']


What are you talking about? Joe isn't the greatest QB but he doesn't throw many interceptions... so, for you to say it usually ends up in a INT is simply not true.
[/quote]

I sort of agree with the other guy. A lot of his ints seem to come throwing to linebackers over the middle. Jags game last year, AFCCG, Eagles game, I think the Pats game this year and Chargers last year. I would think the middle is one of the easiest places to passes but it seems to me at least like he has more difficulty with short to intermediate throws over the middle.
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[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1353257991' post='1221366']
Brian Baldigner, Ross Tucker, Greg Cosell, and now Faulk. It's funny how at least one national analyst has criticized Cam going back to last year.

Cam definitely deserves some credit for the strides the offense has made this year but I'll always believe he's at the heart of the inconsistency. From underutilizing Torrey, predictable calls and schemes and other issues, he makes things easier for opposing defenses.
[/quote]
This, this, this, this, this.
+100
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[quote name='redrum52' timestamp='1353267779' post='1221598']
I sort of agree with the other guy. A lot of his ints seem to come throwing to linebackers over the middle. Jags game last year, AFCCG, Eagles game, I think the Pats game this year and Chargers last year. I would think the middle is one of the easiest places to passes but it seems to me at least like he has more difficulty with short to intermediate throws over the middle.
[/quote]
Most interceptions are over the middle, again. We just see Jpe the most so we notice it more there. But statistically most interceptions are over the middle simply because most of the defenders are there. Outside the numbers really it's just corners.
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[quote name='redrum52' timestamp='1353267779' post='1221598']
I sort of agree with the other guy. A lot of his ints seem to come throwing to linebackers over the middle. Jags game last year, AFCCG, Eagles game, I think the Pats game this year and Chargers last year. I would think the middle is one of the easiest places to passes but it seems to me at least like he has more difficulty with short to intermediate throws over the middle.
[/quote]

I think every one of those throws was an attempt to force into a TE, but still thats like 5 picks over the past 2 years. Is that most of Joe's interceptions? From a statistical measure, the answer is no.
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[quote name='redrum52' timestamp='1353267779' post='1221598']
I sort of agree with the other guy. A lot of his ints seem to come throwing to linebackers over the middle. Jags game last year, AFCCG, Eagles game, I think the Pats game this year and Chargers last year. I would think the middle is one of the easiest places to passes but it seems to me at least like he has more difficulty with short to intermediate throws over the middle.
[/quote]

That's what I am saying. This guy just mentioned 5 games where they came over the middle and I'm pretty sure it didn't take too much thinking. A lot of Flacco's interceptions are because of tipped balls or good plays but a lot of his bad throws where linebackers come from underneath happen over the middle. It seems the intermediate over the middle passes tend to get the "bad throw bad decision" designation while the others are partially coincidental.
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[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1353257991' post='1221366']
Brian Baldigner, Ross Tucker, Greg Cosell, and now Faulk. It's funny how at least one national analyst has criticized Cam going back to last year.

[u][b]Cam definitely deserves some credit for the strides the offense has made this year [/b][/u]but I'll always believe [u][b]he's at the heart of the inconsistency. From underutilizing Torrey, predictable calls and schemes and other issues, he makes things easier for opposing defenses.[/b][/u]
[/quote]

true! imo, i thought that last week against the raiders, Cam called a very good game. he was using EVERYONE! but, the raiders also self-destructed at times. let's see how he calls the game vs the steelers with the Ravens on the road. i want to see Rice, Pierce, Q, Torrey, Jacoby and Dennis and Ed get multiple calls tonight in order to spread the ball around and to keep our offense less-predictable behind enemy lines! use the PA's and throw into the middle of the field! we better win this game!

~Mili
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[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1353269440' post='1221652']


I think every one of those throws was an attempt to force into a TE, but still thats like 5 picks over the past 2 years. Is that most of Joe's interceptions? From a statistical measure, the answer is no.
[/quote]

Exactly my point, he exaggerated the frequency of the INT's.
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[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1353271301' post='1221747']
Exactly my point, he exaggerated the frequency of the INT's.
[/quote]

No I did not. Considering the amount of intermediate passes thrown over the middle having 5 memorable interceptions in the past 2 years is a high number.
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[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1353272297' post='1221811']


No I did not. Considering the amount of intermediate passes thrown over the middle having 5 memorable interceptions in the past 2 years is a high number.
[/quote]

List the "5 memorable" ones... once again, even still 5 isn't a high number. As stated MOST ints happen in the middle.
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[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1353272297' post='1221811']


No I did not. Considering the amount of intermediate passes thrown over the middle having 5 memorable interceptions in the past 2 years is a high number.
[/quote]
How does being "memorable" have anything to do with the question at hand?
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Since we have been talking about using the middle of the field in passing plays, or lack thereof, I have been watching all the games today, to see how often teams use crossing patterns and slants and the middle.

In most cases, everybody uses the middle of the field. It seemed that most often crossing routes and slants were used on 3rd downs with much success. Even Pittsburgh is using the middle of the field with Leftwich.

I saw us throw to Rice once on a slant for 4yards, but I keep seeing exactly what Faulk was talking about, it's open most of the time, yet we NEVER USE IT! Unbelievable
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Cam play calling was just awful today, no TDs by the offense. Even on the 3rd and 2 where we could have put them away, at least do a draw in that situation instead of just dropping Flacco back with him eventually taking a sack. Ike Taylor didn't do a great job on Torrey, Cam did with the play calling as far as the routes that he had them going out on which was nothing but deep routes by the way. Ike Taylor who runs like a 4.3 in the 40 playing 10 yards off of Torrey with Clark dropping underneath and you continue to run Torrey on nothing but deep routes? Drags, slants??????????????
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