Merged: What's up with the run game?

[bMore Heathen]

It's amazing, all you have to do is fallow Vonte. Whichever side he motions to or runs to, that's the side we are running to. It doesn't take a genius to figure out. We ran 1 missdirection, and it went for 8 yards!! How can we continue to be so vanilla, and do nothing to fix it?!? It maybe time to see what Caldwell can do with this offense. I've seen enough of Cam.

[good_n_purple]

I 100% agree, and while we are at it when you see run after run get stuffed up the middle why would you do the same thing on a critical down? If you choose to keep Rice in how about running to the side? A little misdirection may be appropriate...

[The Raven]

[quote name='bMore Heathen' timestamp='1353333761' post='1225850']
It's amazing, all you have to do is fallow Vonte. Whichever side he motions to or runs to, that's the side we are running to. It doesn't take a genius to figure out. We ran 1 missdirection, and it went for 8 yards!! How can we continue to be so vanilla, and do nothing to fix it?!? It maybe time to see what Caldwell can do with this offense. I've seen enough of Cam.
[/quote]

This is something I disagree with. I never liked runs that weren't behind a fullback. Typically, they don't work as well. If you watch teams around the NFL, most of them run behind their fullback for the vast majority of plays.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1353340831' post='1225973']
This is something I disagree with. I never liked runs that weren't behind a fullback. Typically, they don't work as well. If you watch teams around the NFL, most of them run behind their fullback for the vast majority of plays.
[/quote]
I think it's because our TEs don't block well.

[The Raven]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1353340935' post='1225977']
I think it's because our TEs don't block well.
[/quote]

Our tight ends were damn terrible yesterday, especially at blocking. I distinctly remember two occasions where we ran an iso play on 3rd and short, but Rice didn't convert because Harrison or Woodley drove the tight end into the middle and made the tackle. That's just embarassing for the OLBs to be making TFLs on interior run plays. It happened at least twice. I remember once Woodley drove Dickson into the middle and then dropped Rice. Harrison did it to Bajema. The blocking by the tight ends was downright disgusting.

[cobrajet]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1353341129' post='1225980']
Our tight ends were damn terrible yesterday, especially at blocking. I distinctly remember two occasions where we ran an iso play on 3rd and short, but Rice didn't convert because Harrison or Woodley drove the tight end into the middle and made the tackle. That's just embarassing for the OLBs to be making TFLs on interior run plays. It happened at least twice. I remember once Woodley drove Dickson into the middle and then dropped Rice. Harrison did it to Bajema. The blocking by the tight ends was downright disgusting.
[/quote]
Pitta and Dickson are very poor blockers, we all know that, but I thought Bajema was big enough to help out but he got manhandled last night.

[The Raven]

[quote name='cobrajet' timestamp='1353341637' post='1225990']
Pitta and Dickson are very poor blockers, we all know that, but I thought Bajema was big enough to help out but he got manhandled last night.
[/quote]

I'm tellin ya, our tight ends are contributing a lot to the poor run game. The tight ends, Birk, the revolving door at LG, and inexperience at LG and RT are the problems.

[jdynamite]

I think In last nights game Pierce should have gotten 5-10 carries with Leach lead blocking, because he runs hard north and south straight forward.
There are times when Ray Rice gets too antsy and starts jumping around before he ever gains a yard. Last night Rice was running into his blockers, tripping over his own feet. Even when there were holes to run through it seemed like Rice ran into the backs of the Oline then fall down.

[jdynamite]

And another thing that bothers me is rice doesn't get to run behind Leach enough.

For the life of me I don't know how many Dives up the middle we ran last night. There had to be at least 12 runs up the middle for 1 yard. But when we need 1 or 2 yards we throw a bomb down field.

[H8R]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1353341129' post='1225980']
Our tight ends were damn terrible yesterday, especially at blocking. I distinctly remember two occasions where we ran an iso play on 3rd and short, but Rice didn't convert because Harrison or Woodley drove the tight end into the middle and made the tackle. That's just embarassing for the OLBs to be making TFLs on interior run plays. It happened at least twice. I remember once Woodley drove Dickson into the middle and then dropped Rice. Harrison did it to Bajema. The blocking by the tight ends was downright disgusting.
[/quote]

they also drove Oher into the interrior. It was pretty sad.

[H8R]

[quote name='jdynamite' timestamp='1353343657' post='1226038']
And another thing that bothers me is rice doesn't get to run behind Leach enough.

For the life of me I don't know how many Dives up the middle we ran last night. There had to be at least 12 runs up the middle for 1 yard. But when we need 1 or 2 yards we throw a bomb down field.
[/quote]

Rice left an easy 25-30 yards on the field last night. He's starting to concern me. He refuses to crack it to the outside. He seems like his balance has been more suspect then normal ( falling on his face) and his explosiveness isnt there IMO. Maybe hes dealing with something, or maybe missing OTA's/Camp have something to do with it.

[I AM LEGEND]

U guys are overreacting to Ray Rice....and this is coming from me..

Its the Steelers...they stop the run...tho ray has had seldom GREAT games against them in his time here one thing he doesn't do is turn it over against them.(I think he had one big one in 2009 if I'm correct) do u really wanna trust a rookie in a big hard hitting game against our rivals..

Lets calm down

[callahan09]

Not including last night's game, here is a breakdown of Rice's rushing attempts this season...

The Short category includes first downs (first number) and touchdowns (second number) that were under 4 yards. The 4+ yards category includes all plays of that length, whether they first downs, touchdowns, or not. All other categories only count plays that did NOT go for a first down or a touchdown.

I am further compartmentalizing these attempts into "Failed" or "Successful", with the 4+ yards and Short categories being considered "Successful", and all others being considered "Failed". 4 yard runs are respectable and I'd consider them a success, even if it's 3rd and more than 4, just because you can't "expect" a running back to get you more than 5 yards. Likewise, 3 and fewer yards I would always consider a failure, because three 3 yard runs leads to a three and out, except in those cases where a short gain leads to a first down or a touchdown, which is accounted for in these breakdowns.

[u][b]First Down[/b][/u]
Loss: 5
No Gain: 8
1 yard: 10
2 yards: 9
3 yards: 16
4+ yards: 39
Short: 1 + 2

Failed: 48
Successful: 42

Success Rate: 46.7%


[u][b]Second Down[/b][/u]
Loss: 2
No Gain: 4
1 yard: 9
2 yards: 12
3 yards: 9
4+ yards: 25
Short: 3 + 0

Failed: 36
Successful: 28

Success Rate: 43.8%


[u][b]Third Down[/b][/u]
Loss: 0
No Gain: 2
1 yard: 1
2 yards: 1
3 yards: 0
4+ yards: 3
Short: 2 + 1

Failed: 4
Successful: 6

Success Rate: 60.0%

(Ray Rice has no 4th down attempts this season)

[b][u]Total[/u][/b]

Loss: 7
No Gain: 14
1 yard: 20
2 yards: 22
3 yards: 25
4+ yards: 67
Short: 6 + 3

Failed: 88
Successful: 76

Success Rate: 46.3%

What I'm seeing here is that we lean on Rice an awful lot on first down, and also a lot on second down, while we hardly ever go to him on third down, and ironically enough third down is the only situation where Rice is more successful than not.

[AsianRice]

[quote name='I AM LEGEND' timestamp='1353344434' post='1226052']
U guys are overreacting to Ray Rice....and this is coming from me..

Its the Steelers...they stop the run...tho ray has had seldom GREAT games against them in his time here one thing he doesn't do is turn it over against them.(I think he had one big one in 2009 if I'm correct) do u really wanna trust[b] a rookie in a big hard hitting game against our rivals..[/b]

Lets calm down
[/quote]
yep..this is Pittsburgh in the our division we're talking about; a little mistake can determine the outcome of the game...Ball security is important and Rice is hardly fumbled this year although he was fumbled last night but the ball was out fortunately....

[callahan09]

Not counting kneel downs or plays that resulted in a first down or a score, the Ravens have had 33 first down running plays that went for 1 yard, no gain, or a loss. That's out of 275 first down plays (not counting punts, field goal attempts, or kneel downs).

That means 12.0% of our actual first down plays have been a running play resulting in <= 1 yard.

Now what surprised me was that when I looked at this same stat for all other AFC teams, the Ravens actually have the second lowest percentage of first down plays resulting in <= 1 yard, and I can't really find any correlation between this stat and success on offense in general.


Texans: 59 / 311 = 19.0%
Dolphins: 44 / 262 = 16.8%
Jets: 45 / 270 = 16.7%
Jaguars: 41 / 253 = 16.2%
Chiefs: 48 / 305 = 15.7%
Broncos: 46 / 299 = 15.4%
Bengals: 42 / 273 = 15.4%
Patriots: 51 / 347 = 14.7%
Browns: 37 / 263 = 14.1%
Chargers: 39 / 281 = 13.9%
Colts: 42 / 318 = 13.2%
Bills: 36 / 278 = 12.9%
Raiders: 37 / 291 = 12.7%
Steelers: 34 / 280 = 12.1%
Ravens: 33 / 275 = 12.0%
Titans: 30 / 253 = 11.9%

You've got the Titans with a bad offense, best in this stat. You've got the Texans, with one of the best offenses, worst in this stat. But you've also of course got bad teams, bad in this stat, good teams, good in this stat. No correlation at all. Which really surprised me.

Conclusion is that I guess I wasted my time, because it doesn't seem to matter whether you have a lot of, or very few, failed first down plays as to whether your offense will be good or not.

[GrimCoconut]

I have to say I am disappointed with Rice this year, but also last year. I know he led the league from the LOS, but my biggest problems with Rice are:

1) Does not follow his Probowl FB
2) Dances too much in the backfield.
3) Tackles himself, be it by tripping over his own blockers or by just tripping over himself or air. This irritates me that he falls so easily.

Then again, a lot of my issues with Rice are also on Cam & the OL.

[arnie_uk]

Still think we should have kept him on the tag. I think we need to draft a left guard.

[indianstick]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1353350330' post='1226180']
Still think we should have kept him on the tag. I think we need to draft a left guard.
[/quote]

I agree with the second part. Although reid is our best option at guard this year, it would be nice to draft someone who would be an upgrade at that position. Personally I think KO would be great at LG and jah reid would be solid at RT but at this point of the season it'd be tough to make that swap.

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1353347414' post='1226113']
I have to say I am disappointed with Rice this year, but also last year. I know he led the league from the LOS, but my biggest problems with Rice are:

1) Does not follow his Probowl FB
2) Dances too much in the backfield.
3) Tackles himself, be it by tripping over his own blockers or by just tripping over himself or air. This irritates me that he falls so easily.

Then again, a lot of my issues with Rice are also on Cam & the OL.
[/quote]

I disagree with 2 and 3. I don't think he dances that much, and he certainly has shown good balance, staying upright and fighting for extra yardage. Haven't the vast majority of his falls been due to tripping over other guys?

[The Raven]

I had some more thoughts about the running game.

We have typically seen our run game get swallowed by good defenses. Why is that? The zone blocking scheme is easy to stop if you have a good dline and/or good OLBs. Guess what? The Steelers have both. So do the Texans. So do the Chiefs. It's simple, because the dline just has to read the play, play down the line, and force the running back to cut back. If you're playing OLBs like Harrison and Woodley who can set the edge, you simply can't run the outside zone play because you won't get outside. Then, Rice has to cut it back into the ILBs and the DEs. The Steelers' OLBs destroyed our run game in both games.

I noticed in this Steelers game, we ran a few more power scheme plays than usual, and we had moderate success with them. Not so much with the zone scheme.

The problem with the zone scheme is that you NEED a top 5 oline and a good blocking tight end for it to work consistently. I really don't like it. It also has the obvious problem of Rice having to look for a hole and then not making decisive cuts. As for the line, the zone scheme makes the line stretch the defense and block laterally. So, their first step is lateral, and not forward.