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dhstandard

Stop complaining about run vs pass

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I was on the Ravens game forum and this is what I saw.


1. Yay Cam is finally running the ball.

2. Lol I can't believe he is still running the ball while it clearly isn't working. At least people got what they wished for.

*Ray Rice runs for a touch down*

3. HAHA thats what happen when you actually stick with the run Cam. FIRE CAM.

4. Joe Flacco is currently 11/17. CANT BELIEVE HE PASSED THE BALL.


Usually I agree about some bad play calling but whenever we run and it doesn't work, or we pass and it doesn't work you guys are using 100% hindsight to say we should have done it differently. Against the Texans was a good time to complain about the run but while the playcalling may not have been superb, the decision/balance of run vs pass was fine today
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My complaint is we should use Pierce more. He is a beast and rarely goes done on the first hit. Bruising runner and hits the hole hard.
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Th run to pass was fine this game. I do not see how anyone complained. Obviously we were having a hard time in the 2nd and 3rd quarters but that didn't look like it was due to the run/pass mix.
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[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1352077054' post='1210659']
I was on the Ravens game forum and this is what I saw.


1. Yay Cam is finally running the ball.

2. Lol I can't believe he is still running the ball while it clearly isn't working. At least people got what they wished for.

*Ray Rice runs for a touch down*

3. HAHA thats what happen when you actually stick with the run Cam. FIRE CAM.

4. Joe Flacco is currently 11/17. CANT BELIEVE HE PASSED THE BALL.


Usually I agree about some bad play calling but whenever we run and it doesn't work, or we pass and it doesn't work you guys are using 100% hindsight to say we should have done it differently. Against the Texans was a good time to complain about the run but while the playcalling may not have been superb, the decision/balance of run vs pass was fine today
[/quote]

Welcome to the Baltimore Ravens forum. Enjoy your stay. ;)
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[quote name='jaege' timestamp='1352077951' post='1210670']
Th run to pass was fine this game. I do not see how anyone complained. Obviously we were having a hard time in the 2nd and 3rd quarters but that didn't look like it was due to the run/pass mix.
[/quote]

I will admit when we were having the three and out fest. I was yelling at the TV to pass more. Clearly they found Rices kryptonite. For some reason I get more aggravated when Rice carries for 1 or 0 or 2, than I do on an incomplete pass. I dont know why.
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[quote name='redrum52' timestamp='1352077605' post='1210667']
My complaint is we should use Pierce more. He is a beast and rarely goes done on the first hit. Bruising runner and hits the hole hard.
[/quote]

Long as we stay on field, we can use variety of weapons we have. Unfortunately, we have way too many 3&outs. We need to get consistant. Then players like Doss,Pierce,Jones might see some real growth from here on out. Or else its the same thing:
Torrey, Boldin, Ray
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i keep saying this too. run to pass isn't going to solve the problems that we have. we can't get our playmakers open or become less predictable. there are games we struggle when we hand ray the rock and when we put in joes hands. any quality coordinator could make rice and torrey look dangerous but with cam they're not as dangerous as they should be. he is predictable, uses the same old easy to defend routes, and doesn't adjust to anything. if i had any hope of a FO making a good decision, it would oz/steve. hopefully they realize this is the last straw of yet another failed experiment of a coordinator given all these weapons and still underperforming. i can't imagine a bad coordinator hanging around baltimore for 6 years. that is just absurd. the steelers realized their failures but unfortunately we're 1 year late.
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I was fine with the run/pass ratio today, however, I think we ran at times when it made no sense at times and threw when unnecessary During our long stretch of 3&outs, I think less running would have been better, but the field positioning made it difficult. Overall, the playcalling was better and I was glad to see more play action.
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[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1352081691' post='1210760']


Long as we stay on field, we can use variety of weapons we have. Unfortunately, we have way too many 3&outs. We need to get consistant. Then players like Doss,Pierce,Jones might see some real growth from here on out. Or else its the same thing:
Torrey, Boldin, Ray
[/quote]

The other reason is to keep Rice fresh come the post season. I would also like to see them use the wr depth more along with Vonta in 3rd down situations as an extra blocker or in screens.
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One thing I know is that it seems when we run the ball more regardless of the O struggling, seems like we come away with the win but when we go pass crazy, we end up losing a lot of times with the O looking non existent. Say what you want about people needing to stop vouching for more handoffs but it's a hell of a lot better than what happen last week. We had balance play calling today for the most part but Cam needs to try to trick out the Offensive play calling.
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I agree that there are always people screaming "run" or "pass" and then complaining whichever we do. However, you do realize that situations change within a game. Sometimes the shift should be from one to the other.
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[quote name='dhstandard' timestamp='1352077054' post='1210659']
I was on the Ravens game forum and this is what I saw.


1. Yay Cam is finally running the ball.

2. Lol I can't believe he is still running the ball while it clearly isn't working. At least people got what they wished for.

*Ray Rice runs for a touch down*

3. HAHA thats what happen when you actually stick with the run Cam. FIRE CAM.

4. Joe Flacco is currently 11/17. CANT BELIEVE HE PASSED THE BALL.


Usually I agree about some bad play calling but whenever we run and it doesn't work, or we pass and it doesn't work you guys are using 100% hindsight to say we should have done it differently. Against the Texans was a good time to complain about the run but while the playcalling may not have been superb, the decision/balance of run vs pass was fine today
[/quote]

I have nothing against the play calling. It isn't always the right play, but then, no coach can do that all the time, or you'd have teams that literally score a TD on every single offensive possession.

What I Have a problem with is the play designs and our pre-snap execution.

First let me address pre-snap execution: it's really mostly on the offensive linemen. It just seems like the defensive line is too frequently improperly blocked, whoever is pointing out blocking assignments is just not doing a good job, there are all too often free defensive players who can make a play whether it's in rushing the QB or in stopping the run. Second, the snap seems to be too obvious, like the defensive knows exactly when it's going to happen, and they get an instant jump on the line of scrimmage because the snap isn't disguised well. Third, we have too many pre-snap penalties (particularly false start, but also illegal formation, delay of game, and taking unnecessary time outs to avoid delay of game). Fourth, I think we are tipping our hand as to what kind of play we're going to run. It can't be a coincidence that once we get into the second quarter and beyond, the offensive just dies, and it seems like the defense has the perfect play dialed up for whatever play we're about to run every single time. Run play? They're right in there to stop it, pass play, same thing. I think we're not doing a good job of deceiving the defense.

Now, about play design: I just don't like the routes I'm seeing, and I don't think it's the execution of the receivers, I just don't think that the routes are tricky, they don't deceive the opposing secondary. The routes all seem so obvious and so easy to cover. The designs need to be improved to incorporate some moves that will make opposing defenders jump one way, when our receiver is going the other way. I watch as much football as I can, and most teams seem to have a fairly regular occurrence of receivers getting what I'll call "WIDE THE EFF OPEN!", and our receivers, that just doesn't happen. Not ever. Almost every completed pass is a tight window, narrow throw, contested with a possibility of being batted down, and the receiver is tackled nearly instantly unless he makes an amazing spin or juke move like Torrey did yesterday to shed a defender, and situations where there is enough room to even make a move like that seem increasingly rare in our offense.

I think Cam doesn't have the goods to design plays that are effective at helping our receivers get open. He just can't do it, I firmly believe that. He isn't an NFL caliber offensive coordinator. His play calling can be bad, where he stubbornly refuses to adjust according to what he's seeing on the field, but even if he always got the play call right, you couldn't tell because the plays themselves aren't very good. That's what people fail to consider... The quality of the plays as they are designed and exist in the playbook. They aren't creative, they aren't effective, and they're just not NFL worthy.

Cam and the O Line coaching, that's the problem with this offensive. A coaching overhaul on offensive would do these players wonders.
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I didn't get to watch the game, but from what I saw from following it on my phone, we had a very good run / pass ratio, the type of ratio that has won us games the last 4 and a half years. Again, I've only watched highlights, but from my vantage point it looked like our offense simply wasn't executing during that pitiful 2nd-3rd qtr stretch, not neccessarily that Cam was calling bad plays, though I can imagine some of his wonderful routes we always see showing up in this game that I simply couldn't see.
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The "run pass ratio" is pretty much a useless metric and any prescribed ratio does not spell success. For me it's as simple as having the insight and imagination to keep the opposing D off balance and guessing. Obviously that will always be changing, not only from game to game, but from play to play. Success depends upon the insight and imagination of the OC and QB.

"Pounding the rock" may have been a useful phrase in the past when we had no passing game to speak of and the game was played differently, but those days are long gone.
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[quote name='redrum52' timestamp='1352077605' post='1210667']
My complaint is we should use Pierce more. He is a beast and rarely goes done on the first hit. Bruising runner and hits the hole hard.
[/quote]

I don't know if it's time to complain about playing time, but Pierce definitely brings something to the table that RR lacks. While I love me some RR, Bernard does make one think of the Jamal Lewis days when we could run up the gut pretty much at will.
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[quote name='Purple Nurple' timestamp='1352078238' post='1210677']
Welcome to the [s]Baltimore Ravens[/s] every sports forum ever. Enjoy your stay. ;)
[/quote]

This is a tad more accurate.
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[quote name='awholelottahaloti' timestamp='1352129413' post='1211168']
[b]The "run pass ratio" is pretty much a useless metric and any prescribed ratio does not spell success. For me it's as simple as having the insight and imagination to keep the opposing D off balance and guessing.[/b]
[color=#ff0000]That's why the run to pass ratio can be useful b/c if you are about even or 60-40 either way, that's what keeps the opposing D off balanced and guessing and we don't have the team where we can just punch you in the mouth meaning you know what we are doing and you still can't stop it so that's why balance is even more important for us.[/color]
Obviously that will always be changing, not only from game to game, but from play to play. Success depends upon the insight and imagination of the OC and QB.

[b]"Pounding the rock" may have been a useful phrase in the past when we had no passing game to speak of and the game was played differently, but those days are long gone.[/b]

[color=#ff0000]This is a very inaccurate statement that I hear time and time again. Even back in the day, you had to have a passing game so it's not like teams was just running 80% of the time...... they still had to pass ( Cowboys, Steelers, Niners, etc.... ) Even our almighty squad of 2000, Trent had to pass the ball or else we wouldn't have been SB Champs. You still can get away with pounding the rock these days but you obviously have to mix in your passes with doing so.[/color][color=#000000] [/color][/quote]

With how our team is with the personnel we posses including our QB, we will never be able to have an O with the likes of the Packers, NE, Saints, etc.... so people need to just get that out of their head. Now, we can have an O around the likes of the Niners, Texans, etc.....
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[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1352138958' post='1211342']
With how our team is with the personnel we posses including our QB, we will never be able to have an O with the likes of the Packers, NE, Saints, etc.... so people need to just get that out of their head. Now, we can have an O around the likes of the Niners, Texans, etc.....
[/quote]

In essence, I don't disagree with what you are saying. What is fact is that it will never be the same from game to game, or even within one game. We have to have the ability to change on the fly to be successful. So saying "we need to run more" or "we need to pass more" is just meaningless unless it is said during a game, or during a period of a game.
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Passing wins superbowls end of story. The reason I want the Ravens to develop into a better passing team is because when it comes to the games that really matter ie. the playoffs, teams find ways to shutdown Rice. The last 5 superbowls and maybe even further back, have yet to have a 100 yard rusher in the superbowl. Running games generally get little production in the superbowl exceptions being made for goal-line duties. Last year in the playoffs through 2 games, Rice ran the ball 41 times for 167 yards with no touchdowns. Cam Cameron gave Rice the ball 21 times in both playoff games, yet he got shutdown. Flacco however completed nearly 60% of his passes for 482 yards with 4 TDs and only 1 pick. We all saw that Pats game last year where Flacco clearly out played the great and mighty Tom Brady. Passing is how you win championships not running the ball. I feel like Cam's play calling is just god awful...watching the game last week, Rice really wasnt getting any production on the ground in the second half. It was a typical "Cam" day-- run...run...run [i]punt.[/i] Run the ball run the ball [i]3 and out. [/i]This was the big problem 2 seasons ago where teams were making 4th quarter comebacks over us because our defense was constantly on the field due to three and outs and would get burned. And the Browns somehow found a way to take the lead, then Cam was like "Ughhh FINE I'll pass the ball are you happy?" haha then Flacco throws to torrey for the win. This is the definition of an unbalanced feeble approach to an offense, that right now is our only means of winning games. Cam either goes run heavy or pass heavy and whatever he picks before the game, he will stick with unless we get behind then will switch his strategy, atleast that what it seems like. But honestly im still down with the Harbaugh approach "do whatever it takes to win" even though that is weak and every coach should want nothing more than to dominate the competition every week. But I have faith that we can solidify things and make another big run this year for the SB.
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its not about running vs passing, its all about in-game adjustments and adapting to the game, these article [url="http://russellstreetreport.com/ever-slow-adjust-ravens-offense-own-worst-enemy/"] 1[/url] raised the exact same concerns with the ravens CAM is stubborn he will keep doing the same thing over and over and over even if its not working, in the browns game yes he did run RR but the Brownies adjusted to that and stopped the ravens, don't u think maybe u call different plays to counter the adjustment or do u run up the middle twice and get stuffed and incomplete pass and punt (6 times), to me its the in game adjustments that's killing the ravens.
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[quote name='PolishRifle' timestamp='1352418122' post='1213524']
Yes, stop complaining about run vs pass, becaue[b] neither is working[/b].
[/quote]
Individually. But when you combine the two magic happens
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[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1352428313' post='1213650']
Individually. But when you combine the two magic happens
[/quote]

That sort of magic is reserved [b]for openers only [/b]apparently. Against the Browns we saw the Ravens run the ball, even when it stopped working and in the game before we passed the ball, even when it stopped working. Works great against bad defenses, that can't adjust. Too bad there are only a handfull of teams like that in the league and close to none left on our schedule.
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Unless we are being blown out Rice should get atleast 20 carries a game. 25 touches. Might be a lot but he's our best playmaker on offense.
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[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1352510894' post='1214218']
Unless we are being blown out Rice should get atleast 20 carries a game. 25 touches. Might be a lot but he's our best playmaker on offense.
[/quote]
True, but without Joe we are nothing. I here peole say without Ray we are nothing, if we had Shaub and not Joe, we would'nt even be considered for the playoffs. If Joe only threw for 50 yards, 3 INTS, and the game winning TD would we still bash him... No, Joe is that kind of QB.
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[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1352515722' post='1214245']

True, but without Joe we are nothing. I here peole say without Ray we are nothing, if we had Shaub and not Joe, we would'nt even be considered for the playoffs. If Joe only threw for 50 yards, 3 INTS, and the game winning TD would we still bash him... No, Joe is that kind of QB.
[/quote]
We would be nothing without Joe. I support him 100% .
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[quote name='Purple_ICE 81' timestamp='1352306604' post='1212746']
Passing wins superbowls end of story. The reason I want the Ravens to develop into a better passing team is because when it comes to the games that really matter ie. the playoffs, teams find ways to shutdown Rice. The last 5 superbowls and maybe even further back, have yet to have a 100 yard rusher in the superbowl. Running games generally get little production in the superbowl exceptions being made for goal-line duties. Last year in the playoffs through 2 games, Rice ran the ball 41 times for 167 yards with no touchdowns. Cam Cameron gave Rice the ball 21 times in both playoff games, yet he got shutdown. Flacco however completed nearly 60% of his passes for 482 yards with 4 TDs and only 1 pick. We all saw that Pats game last year where Flacco clearly out played the great and mighty Tom Brady. Passing is how you win championships not running the ball. I feel like Cam's play calling is just god awful...watching the game last week, Rice really wasnt getting any production on the ground in the second half. It was a typical "Cam" day-- run...run...run [i]punt.[/i] Run the ball run the ball [i]3 and out. [/i]This was the big problem 2 seasons ago where teams were making 4th quarter comebacks over us because our defense was constantly on the field due to three and outs and would get burned. And the Browns somehow found a way to take the lead, then Cam was like "Ughhh FINE I'll pass the ball are you happy?" haha then Flacco throws to torrey for the win. This is the definition of an unbalanced feeble approach to an offense, that right now is our only means of winning games. Cam either goes run heavy or pass heavy and whatever he picks before the game, he will stick with unless we get behind then will switch his strategy, atleast that what it seems like. But honestly im still down with the Harbaugh approach "do whatever it takes to win" even though that is weak and every coach should want nothing more than to dominate the competition every week. But I have faith that we can solidify things and make another big run this year for the SB.
[/quote]

The answer is that there is a time a place and a need for both. But it seems you've forgotten about K.C. and Houston when Rice was eliminated from the plan. Point being, as it's been shown time and time again, if not for running plays the passing game becomes less effective; If not for the passing plays, the runs become less effective.

This is what most knowledgeable people have been saying. The Ravens cannot eliminate half of its offense and expect to be consistent in keeping opposing teams off balance and our defense off the field.

The problem with the offensive running in Cleveland had more to do with sending Rice repeatedly into the same hole. Running, like passing has to be creative and show variety or decent defenses will shut it down. Besides, that showed me that Cam was being Cam; he's a coordinator who seems to have loss it a while back.
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