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#1 nextgen_RavensFan

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 04:21 PM

Does Harb's sound like a guy who has lost comtrol. LOL. He has been under fire for a couple of weeks now and i think that he is almost ready to admit he was riding on the defenses back the last 4 years and really has no idea how to fix the issues nor the [courage] to stand up and make the Offensive and Defensive Coordinators to make much needed changes.

Cam is now blaming Flacco for the lack of using Rice. Pee's Simply states that he knows the defense is lacking but never has an answer to try to fix it. Our team is lacking leaders from the top down. Suggs will try to be the field leader but that only goes so far. The once tough, hard hitting Ravens are now without a leader that has a back bone but one that is willing to settle for what is currently happening as he is in over his head.

I would ask anyone to name just one single time Harb's has stepped up and made a call to alter the teams direction. I cannot think of any. He lacks what his brother has and that is a fire to win and a fearless attitude to make the tough calls.

Edited by Moderator 3, 02 November 2012 - 05:15 PM.
Vulgarity removed

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#2 AsianRice

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 04:33 PM

Does Harb's sound like a guy who has lost comtrol. LOL. He has been under fire for a couple of weeks now and i think that he is almost ready to admit he was riding on the defenses back the last 4 years and really has no idea how to fix the issues nor the [courage] to stand up and make the Offensive and Defensive Coordinators to make much needed changes.

Cam is now blaming Flacco for the lack of using Rice. Pee's Simply states that he knows the defense is lacking but never has an answer to try to fix it. Our team is lacking leaders from the top down. Suggs will try to be the field leader but that only goes so far. The once tough, hard hitting Ravens are now without a leader that has a back bone but one that is willing to settle for what is currently happening as he is in over his head.

I would ask anyone to name just one single time Harb's has stepped up and made a call to alter the teams direction. I cannot think of any. He lacks what his brother has and that is a fire to win and a fearless attitude to make the tough calls.

I believe HC don't have the power to fire anyone; he can place a vote for it which sometimes changes the outcome of the situation cuz the top man, Ozzie will clearly listen to the HC about hiring and firing. However, the final decision is always Ozzie or Steve if he ever steps in.

Right now we don't have personel to replace Pees, but we do have backup to replace Cam anytime.

I don't think our team will make any 360 move because of bad performances and still maintaining top race. We will ride good and bad times with Cam and Pees until the end of the season unless we pull out winless Detroit or Panthers back in the day.

Edited by Moderator 3, 02 November 2012 - 05:14 PM.
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#3 Shammy

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 04:37 PM

you made all the right points .. i dont think harbaugh ever truelly had or has any control , seems more and more like relied on the veteran players in the locker room , and he just came in and rode the coat tails of a pretty good organization .. i know the guy has " lead" our team to the playoffs every year but are we sure hes the one leading ?

Edited by Shammy, 02 November 2012 - 04:38 PM.

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#4 redrum52

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 04:44 PM

Agree with some but not all of what you said. I think Harbaugh is a more behind the scenes guy as far as criticism towards his players and coaches (not named Cam). Regardless of what we've seem as Suggs has said the Ravens have been a 2nd half team in terms of how they perform midway through the the season. I think the defense improves but still concerned that the only consistency on offense is its inconsistentcy.
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#5 jaege

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 05:13 PM

In an interview last Thanksgiving day the reporter asked both John and Jim what they learned from their dad. John said he learned to compete. Jim said he learned to win. I think that is pretty telling. I like John but I think his brother is the tougher of the two.

Edited by jaege, 02 November 2012 - 05:14 PM.

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It's so nice to be insane...

CAM GOT FIRED!!!!!

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 05:29 PM

Harbs made plenty of changes in 2008, but that is the last time I can remember. Everything else was Ozzie.
Harbaugh needs to tell Cam and Pees to stop the bull, and seize some control.
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The Raven, on 03 Jan 2012-624 PM, said:

"You have reached your quota of negative votes for the day"

VIVA LA BUTT-FUMBLE!!!

 

Malkavian Raven, on 4 June 2014, said: "Display's off his meds again. Alert the white coats with the butterfly nets."





#7 K-Dog

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 07:08 PM

again,
we dont know what goes on behind closed doors. We dont know what Harbs does in team meetings and coaches meetings.
Lets not pretend we do know.
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#8 berad

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 07:11 PM

Can we keep the doom and gloom until after Sunday, at least?
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#9 gabefergy

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 07:19 PM

More senseless drivel. I dont understand how anyone can be critical of Harbaugh after his proven track record with this team. First it's "oh well Harbaugh doesnt call plays so he must not be doing anything" now your criticizing because he doesnt call out his coaches or players publicly?

This just sounds like fans feeling awfully entitled. If you think the HC and the rest of coaching staff doesnt do everything they can to make the Ravens the best team they can you are way off target.
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#10 berad

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 07:20 PM

More senseless drivel. I dont understand how anyone can be critical of Harbaugh after his proven track record with this team. First it's "oh well Harbaugh doesnt call plays so he must not be doing anything" now your criticizing because he doesnt call out his coaches or players publicly?

This just sounds like fans feeling awfully entitled. If you think the HC and the rest of coaching staff doesnt do everything they can to make the Ravens the best team they can you are way off target.


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#11 The Raven

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:27 PM

More senseless drivel. I dont understand how anyone can be critical of Harbaugh after his proven track record with this team. First it's "oh well Harbaugh doesnt call plays so he must not be doing anything" now your criticizing because he doesnt call out his coaches or players publicly?

This just sounds like fans feeling awfully entitled. If you think the HC and the rest of coaching staff doesnt do everything they can to make the Ravens the best team they can you are way off target.


Thanks. This summarizes my thoughts in a kinder way than I intended.

nextgen_RavensFan, why so negative all the time?
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#12 mhead66

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:41 PM

I'm not sure you can say we suffer from a lack of leadership from the coaching staff - remember, under Billick, the lack of discipline? It WAS the inmates running the asylum, and I think Billick was hesitant about asserting much control - especially of the defense, and especially when Ryan was here. There was a bit of open defiance, at times - Chris McAlister, for example - and I think Billick pretty much focused on the offense, and gave the defensive coaches lots of discretion, regarding plays, who played, etc. The lack of discipline showed itself by the huge number of penalties we incurred.

I don't see that under Harbaugh. MY criticism is that I don't see a specific "footprint" named Harbaugh on this team - we've lost a bit of our identity. The Offense can't decide whether it wants to be New England (focusing on the pass) or San Francisco (forcing opponents to take away the run). The Defense - so long our identity - has struggled signficantly. We're 30th vs. the run, 28th overall, on defense.

I think we're uneasy because our identity has been - for so long - a tough, punch-you-in-the-mouth, physical team, that imposed its will... and our defense is getting pushed around. Our leader - #52 - is MIA. Harbaugh hasn't figured out what to do, because it's not an easy fix...

Personally - IMO - you're barking up the wrong tree. I think our problem is Ozzie.

Before everyone negs me to death (:)) let me point out something: Over the last 5 drafts, we've drafted 8 defensive players in the first 3 rounds of the draft. 8 players that - because of their draft status - should be impact starters, or at least good, solid contributors. The draft is the bedrock from which a team is built, and the defense has suffered because Ozzie has largely whiffed on some of these selections:

1. Courtney Upshaw (2nd) - yes, it's 1/2 way through his rookie season, but he has 1/2 sack in 7 games - and compare him to Aldon Smith, Von Miller, or other pass rushers. Not to knock or judge Upshaw (yet) but he hasn't made an impact at all... yet.

2. Jimmy Smith (1st) - Still young, but struggling mightily - and, for a highly touted 1st rounder, he hasn't excelled. If he'd been a 5th rounder, no one would complain, but he was a 1st.

3. Sergio Kindle (2nd) - Never made it - sure, the fall down the steps did him in, but... he's on the practice squad, and he was our 1st selection 3 years ago.

4. Terrence Cody (2nd) - Another average player - disappointly so, for a 2nd rounder. Platoons and can make a play, but isn't consistently dominating, at all.

5. Paul Kruger (2nd) - Starting for the first time in 4 years, he has 1 1/2 sacks in 7 games and 8 sacks in 4 years. A true disappointment.

6. Lardarius Webb (3rd) - A Homerun... but he's injured - a large reason we're struggling.

7. Tavares Gooden (3rd) - Gone.

8. Tom Zbikowski (3rd) - Gone.

One dominating player out of 8 picks in rounds 1-3, over the last 5 years. Yes, that's why our defense is struggling - our stars are aging (Reed, Lewis) and injured (T-Siz, Ngata)... and the reinforcements are lacking...

Sorry, Ozzie - you need some improvement.
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#13 The Raven

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:45 PM

I'm not sure you can say we suffer from a lack of leadership from the coaching staff - remember, under Billick, the lack of discipline? It WAS the inmates running the asylum, and I think Billick was hesitant about asserting much control - especially of the defense, and especially when Ryan was here. There was a bit of open defiance, at times - Chris McAlister, for example - and I think Billick pretty much focused on the offense, and gave the defensive coaches lots of discretion, regarding plays, who played, etc. The lack of discipline showed itself by the huge number of penalties we incurred.

I don't see that under Harbaugh. MY criticism is that I don't see a specific "footprint" named Harbaugh on this team - we've lost a bit of our identity. The Offense can't decide whether it wants to be New England (focusing on the pass) or San Francisco (forcing opponents to take away the run). The Defense - so long our identity - has struggled signficantly. We're 30th vs. the run, 28th overall, on defense.

I think we're uneasy because our identity has been - for so long - a tough, punch-you-in-the-mouth, physical team, that imposed its will... and our defense is getting pushed around. Our leader - #52 - is MIA. Harbaugh hasn't figured out what to do, because it's not an easy fix...

Personally - IMO - you're barking up the wrong tree. I think our problem is Ozzie.

Before everyone negs me to death ( :)) let me point out something: Over the last 5 drafts, we've drafted 8 defensive players in the first 3 rounds of the draft. 8 players that - because of their draft status - should be impact starters, or at least good, solid contributors. The draft is the bedrock from which a team is built, and the defense has suffered because Ozzie has largely whiffed on some of these selections:

1. Courtney Upshaw (2nd) - yes, it's 1/2 way through his rookie season, but he has 1/2 sack in 7 games - and compare him to Aldon Smith, Von Miller, or other pass rushers. Not to knock or judge Upshaw (yet) but he hasn't made an impact at all... yet.

2. Jimmy Smith (1st) - Still young, but struggling mightily - and, for a highly touted 1st rounder, he hasn't excelled. If he'd been a 5th rounder, no one would complain, but he was a 1st.

3. Sergio Kindle (2nd) - Never made it - sure, the fall down the steps did him in, but... he's on the practice squad, and he was our 1st selection 3 years ago.

4. Terrence Cody (2nd) - Another average player - disappointly so, for a 2nd rounder. Platoons and can make a play, but isn't consistently dominating, at all.

5. Paul Kruger (2nd) - Starting for the first time in 4 years, he has 1 1/2 sacks in 7 games and 8 sacks in 4 years. A true disappointment.

6. Lardarius Webb (3rd) - A Homerun... but he's injured - a large reason we're struggling.

7. Tavares Gooden (3rd) - Gone.

8. Tom Zbikowski (3rd) - Gone.

One dominating player out of 8 picks in rounds 1-3, over the last 5 years. Yes, that's why our defense is struggling - our stars are aging (Reed, Lewis) and injured (T-Siz, Ngata)... and the reinforcements are lacking...

Sorry, Ozzie - you need some improvement.


Sorry, mhead66, but I think you're completely incorrect in putting the blame of those players' lack of success on Ozzie. Look at each one of them and tell me honestly; wouldn't you have drafted them all in the same spot as well? They all played exceptionally well in college. That is an indisputable fact.

Oh, and to say Upshaw hasn't made an impact is just laughable. You must not be watching him play. He's easily one of our best defenders right now. I'd put him in our Top 3 right now behind Ngata and Suggs.

Edited by The Raven, 02 November 2012 - 11:46 PM.

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#14 mhead66

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:08 AM

Sorry, mhead66, but I think you're completely incorrect in putting the blame of those players' lack of success on Ozzie. Look at each one of them and tell me honestly; wouldn't you have drafted them all in the same spot as well? They all played exceptionally well in college. That is an indisputable fact.

Oh, and to say Upshaw hasn't made an impact is just laughable. You must not be watching him play. He's easily one of our best defenders right now. I'd put him in our Top 3 right now behind Ngata and Suggs.

You're blaming the players for the fact that the Ravens FO drafted them so high, instead of the FO which drafted them? You draft a player based on an evaluation of his talent and potential, and take a chance. Sometimes it works out, other times it fizzles. But you can't give credit - "In Ozzie We Trust" - when he succeeds, and blame the players - and not the drafter - when he doesn't. Sure, the player has to excel - but it's up to the FO to evaluate, and the ability to judge college players rests with the scouts - but Ozzie makes the decisions. If they consistently fizzle over a prolonged period, you must identify the problem.

And I'm NOT putting down Upshaw - but we've got 12 sacks (we're 25th in the NFL) and are 24th vs. the Pass... and Upshaw has 1/2 sack. We need pressure on the QB - and last year, Von Miller had 11.5 sacks, Aldon Smith 14 sacks. This is J.J. Watts' 2nd year, and he's in the discussion for league MVP. A young pass-rusher can dominate, in terms of sacks / pressures, and Courtney hasn't. Sure, he's not been a liability, but we needed a pass-rusher, not a solid, all-around, competent OLB - we had that in JJ... Again, it's not a put-down of Upshaw, but our youth on defense is a problem, and it doesn't bode well for our future.
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#15 Guest_Mr. Nobody_*

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 06:06 AM

Can we keep the doom and gloom until after Sunday, at least?


Now now let's not get ahead of ourselves, no doom and gloom after Sunday... we'll be at 6-2 going for 7-2... and read topics like D has shown improvement and O was in the game etc happy happy thoughts
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#16 K-Dog

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 07:05 AM

Hindsight is 20/20. Every time.
Each and every draft pick is a gamble. You cant deny that.
You cant blame Ozzie for the end result.
Unless he has an account with Miss Cleo, he is just as unable to predict the future as the rest of us.
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#17 BenMir

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 07:10 AM

I'm not sure you can say we suffer from a lack of leadership from the coaching staff - remember, under Billick, the lack of discipline? It WAS the inmates running the asylum, and I think Billick was hesitant about asserting much control - especially of the defense, and especially when Ryan was here. There was a bit of open defiance, at times - Chris McAlister, for example - and I think Billick pretty much focused on the offense, and gave the defensive coaches lots of discretion, regarding plays, who played, etc. The lack of discipline showed itself by the huge number of penalties we incurred.

I don't see that under Harbaugh. MY criticism is that I don't see a specific "footprint" named Harbaugh on this team - we've lost a bit of our identity. The Offense can't decide whether it wants to be New England (focusing on the pass) or San Francisco (forcing opponents to take away the run). The Defense - so long our identity - has struggled signficantly. We're 30th vs. the run, 28th overall, on defense.

I think we're uneasy because our identity has been - for so long - a tough, punch-you-in-the-mouth, physical team, that imposed its will... and our defense is getting pushed around. Our leader - #52 - is MIA. Harbaugh hasn't figured out what to do, because it's not an easy fix...

Personally - IMO - you're barking up the wrong tree. I think our problem is Ozzie.

Before everyone negs me to death ( :)) let me point out something: Over the last 5 drafts, we've drafted 8 defensive players in the first 3 rounds of the draft. 8 players that - because of their draft status - should be impact starters, or at least good, solid contributors. The draft is the bedrock from which a team is built, and the defense has suffered because Ozzie has largely whiffed on some of these selections:

1. Courtney Upshaw (2nd) - yes, it's 1/2 way through his rookie season, but he has 1/2 sack in 7 games - and compare him to Aldon Smith, Von Miller, or other pass rushers. Not to knock or judge Upshaw (yet) but he hasn't made an impact at all... yet.

2. Jimmy Smith (1st) - Still young, but struggling mightily - and, for a highly touted 1st rounder, he hasn't excelled. If he'd been a 5th rounder, no one would complain, but he was a 1st.

3. Sergio Kindle (2nd) - Never made it - sure, the fall down the steps did him in, but... he's on the practice squad, and he was our 1st selection 3 years ago.

4. Terrence Cody (2nd) - Another average player - disappointly so, for a 2nd rounder. Platoons and can make a play, but isn't consistently dominating, at all.

5. Paul Kruger (2nd) - Starting for the first time in 4 years, he has 1 1/2 sacks in 7 games and 8 sacks in 4 years. A true disappointment.

6. Lardarius Webb (3rd) - A Homerun... but he's injured - a large reason we're struggling.

7. Tavares Gooden (3rd) - Gone.

8. Tom Zbikowski (3rd) - Gone.

One dominating player out of 8 picks in rounds 1-3, over the last 5 years. Yes, that's why our defense is struggling - our stars are aging (Reed, Lewis) and injured (T-Siz, Ngata)... and the reinforcements are lacking...

Sorry, Ozzie - you need some improvement.

About Upshaw.. he is NOT a pass rush specialist and you need to understand it. He was described as an elite run stopper with some passrush skills. It was noted again and again that he doesn't have elite explosiveness and he's not athletic enough to be a 10+ sacks kind of guy. Take that, combine it with a d-line that does nothing and no real threat on the other side + Pees = no sacks.
But to say he doesn't have any impact.. he's probably the ONLY player except Ngata (and not Suggs) to play the run. I look for him every play, he's a brick wall.
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#18 The Raven

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:00 AM

You're blaming the players for the fact that the Ravens FO drafted them so high, instead of the FO which drafted them? You draft a player based on an evaluation of his talent and potential, and take a chance. Sometimes it works out, other times it fizzles. But you can't give credit - "In Ozzie We Trust" - when he succeeds, and blame the players - and not the drafter - when he doesn't. Sure, the player has to excel - but it's up to the FO to evaluate, and the ability to judge college players rests with the scouts - but Ozzie makes the decisions. If they consistently fizzle over a prolonged period, you must identify the problem.

And I'm NOT putting down Upshaw - but we've got 12 sacks (we're 25th in the NFL) and are 24th vs. the Pass... and Upshaw has 1/2 sack. We need pressure on the QB - and last year, Von Miller had 11.5 sacks, Aldon Smith 14 sacks. This is J.J. Watts' 2nd year, and he's in the discussion for league MVP. A young pass-rusher can dominate, in terms of sacks / pressures, and Courtney hasn't. Sure, he's not been a liability, but we needed a pass-rusher, not a solid, all-around, competent OLB - we had that in JJ... Again, it's not a put-down of Upshaw, but our youth on defense is a problem, and it doesn't bode well for our future.


Oh goodness! You must not have read my post at all! Based on what they all did in college, Ozzie was justified in taking them where he drafted them. Based on their college performance, they were drafted right where they should have been. It his not his fault that their growth and development halted. You simply can't tell me that you wouldn't have drafted those players at the same spot Ozzie. You can't tell me that it's all Ozzie's fault they didn't pan out.

Upshaw has done well rushing the passer. He doesn't have many sacks at all, but he's done pretty well. As far as pass rushing goes, he has picked up where JJ left off. There has been no drop off in the pass rush from JJ to Upshaw. Some would even argue that Upshaw is better. The youth on our defense is a problem and doesn't bode well for the future? That's a really stupid statement. Guess what? All those players are going to get experience and develop into better players. Eventually, they won't be so youthful. They'll become better players.
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#19 Moderator 2

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:36 AM

I think the fans have become spoiled by winning and we are a victim of our own success. When you draft in the high 20's year after year it begins to show. Coaching may also play a part, except for Cam, our coaching staff gets raided every year. The Ravens are structured to compete every year, like the Patriots and the Steelers, but in the last 5 years each of those teams missed the playoffs and re-loaded. I'm not ready to throw in the towel at 5-2 , part of all the negativity from fans is the team lost before the bye and we have had 2 weeks to relive the worst game I have seen the Ravens play in years.
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#20 berad

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 01:13 PM

Now now let's not get ahead of ourselves, no doom and gloom after Sunday... we'll be at 6-2 going for 7-2... and read topics like D has shown improvement and O was in the game etc happy happy thoughts


Haha exactly. I'm just ready to get excited for a Ravens game after two weeks without it.
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