At This Point In The Season, Has the Flacco/Ryan Debate Been Answered?

[Gordo52]

[quote name='allballs' timestamp='1351802713' post='1207311']
really, what has flacco done in the postseason? before you knee jerk, go back, do ya research....
[/quote]
I don't even have a response for a comment like this. So I'll use what The Raven said: [quote] Just 4 playoff appearances, and 2 AFCCG appearances, one of which should have been a win. Do some research and you might know [/quote]

He outplayed Brady in the AFCCG, threw a ball perfectly to Lee Evans -- in which he dropped. Then our kicker missed a 30 some yard field goal and couldn't give him a chance.

Matt Ryan hasn't done poop in the postseason. Not only talking about last year where he failed to score at home vs the G-men. But in 2010 & 2008. (Not really fair to say anything about his rookie year, but Joe went to the AFCC in his). So...

[Finally]

[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1351813038' post='1207449']
He outplayed Brady in the AFCCG, threw a ball perfectly to Lee Evans -- in which he dropped. Then our kicker missed a 30 some yard field goal and couldn't give him a chance.

Matt Ryan hasn't done poop in the postseason. Not only talking about last year where he failed to score at home vs the G-men. But in 2010 & 2008. (Not really fair to say anything about his rookie year, but Joe went to the AFCC in his). So...
[/quote]

Ryan wasn't at home last year and I find it odd that Flacco gets a break for not winning the championship because it is a team effort but Ryan is expected to win regardless of his team. Our defense under Ryan has never been able to win defensive battles with the top defenses in the league. In fact, it has not been able to do it throughout most of our history. We win by keeping them off the field. The problem with that is if our offense stutters even a little we are in big trouble because our defense will let the game get away from us against a potent offense. The only playoff game we stood a chance to win was against the Cardinals but thanks to our defense being out of place on a 3 and 16 our offense never had a chance to comeback and win the game.

I get that you guys do not have a good working knowldege of Falcons football but it makes it hard for me to try and squash these kinds of threads that appear on our board when you are attacking my QB for things that are not all in his control. Besides that if you are not Falcons fans why do you care where we exited the POs? It had no bearing on you.

[berad]

[quote name='Finally' timestamp='1351876321' post='1207743']
Ryan wasn't at home last year and I find it odd that Flacco gets a break for not winning the championship because it is a team effort but Ryan is expected to win regardless of his team. Our defense under Ryan has never been able to win defensive battles with the top defenses in the league. In fact, it has not been able to do it throughout most of our history. We win by keeping them off the field. The problem with that is if our offense stutters even a little we are in big trouble because our defense will let the game get away from us against a potent offense. [b]The only playoff game we stood a chance to win was against the Cardinals but thanks to our defense being out of place on a 3 and 16 our offense never had a chance to comeback and win the game.[/b]

I get that you guys do not have a good working knowldege of Falcons football but it makes it hard for me to try and squash these kinds of threads that appear on our board when you are attacking my QB for things that are not all in his control. Besides that if you are not Falcons fans why do you care where we exited the POs? It had no bearing on you.
[/quote]

Sure, if you don't count a Cardinals defensive touchdown and safety which are directly offensive problems. Also, it's funny that the Cardinals game is the only one you had a chance to win when you were leading in every game at one point. It was 2-7 at halftime vs the Giants last year, the Falcons offense didn't make an appearance.

I don't fault Ryan for not winning playoff games, I fault him for being poor in every one he's played.

[Finally]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1351879680' post='1207767']
Sure, if you don't count a Cardinals defensive touchdown and safety which are directly offensive problems. Also, it's funny that the Cardinals game is the only one you had a chance to win when you were leading in every game at one point. It was 2-7 at halftime vs the Giants last year, the Falcons offense didn't make an appearance.

I don't fault Ryan for not winning playoff games, I fault him for being poor in every one he's played.
[/quote]

I don't want to get to mired down in the Cardinals game but they were off-sides a lot, and especially when the botched hand-off to Turner turned into a defensive score. Ryan fought though and brought us back to give us a chance at winning and the defense let us down.

I don't give Ryan a pass on offense but since I have seen the recipe for how these playoff games were lost in regular season losses I know our coordinators were easy to out-coach, and our defense cannot hold against good offenses if they spend any time on the field. We didn't devote enough time practicing or playing quick-strike scoring, we were ground and pound. Our regular season success has been built upon playing keep-away and that is never going to translate into much PO success. The mistakes Ryan made were the mistakes a lot of QBs make when facing really good defenses.

I know Ryan can do it. He almost did it his rookie year but that was only because we were more equally matched on defense. We would have never made it to the SB but we would have won one. Considering how many times we have failed to get to a SB I don't put as much stock in playoff wins. IMO, there is one SB winner and 31 losers. Winning one or two doesn't mean the next year you will do better or even make the playoffs again at all. I am glad Flacco won some additional games for you but other than using it to bash Ryan, I can't believe that getting closer but not making it is anything more than a moral victory to some.

You may get another break again this year with the Ryan/Flacco debate because I am still not sure we have a defense that is playoff caliber. The next few weeks will tell now that we have C.Peters back if our run d can tighten up. Hopefully Weatherspoon will not be out more than a week.

If you need to keep bashing Ryan because of playoff losses there is nothing I can do about it but the truth is under VanGorder and Mularkey we were not designed or prepared for playoff success. I think if we are not this year, Nolan will retool our defense next year. He certainly didn't mess around with R.Edwards who was supposed to upgrade our LDE position but has now been demoted. This is welcome news after years of Jamaal Anderson stinking up the position. I dream of the day we can apply pressure with 4.

[Bravens292]

this is the same as cam and RGIII. they will forever be linked and nobody feels like doing it. just put it to rest and accept one QB has figured it out and the other is inconsistent with potential to be great that needs a little more time.

[jimmypowder]

[quote name='Bravens292' timestamp='1352152705' post='1211592']
this is the same as cam and RGIII. they will forever be linked and nobody feels like doing it. just put it to rest and accept one QB has figured it out and the other is inconsistent with potential to be great that needs a little more time.
[/quote]

I'll wait to say Matty Ice has figured it out when he wins ONE playoff game.

[Bravens292]

[quote name='jimmypowder' timestamp='1352152889' post='1211595']
I'll wait to say Matty Ice has figured it out when he wins ONE playoff game.
[/quote]

if i was a falcons fan, i'd be wishing for all the playoff games to be on the road with the way they're playing at home. the falcons are a good team but i'm not confident enough yet to say they could beat the packers in the playoffs. they haven't looked spectacular lately (other than the texans game) but come playoff time, they are tough to beat.

[H8R]

the Falcons are playing pretty well... Though people forget, the Redskins had them beat... Thats the state of the NFL, no real elite team IMO. The Falcons could easily have the Ravens record..and the Ravens could Easily have Cincy's record..

[Bravens292]

[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1352153754' post='1211622']
the Falcons are playing pretty well... Though people forget, the Redskins had them beat... Thats the state of the NFL, no real elite team IMO. The Falcons could easily have the Ravens record..and the Ravens could Easily have Cincy's record..
[/quote]

that is true, i don't think they are any elite teams either. houston is as close as it gets but they have their troubles too.

[Ravenslifer]

I'll keep saying it, but Matt Ryan "turned the corner" when he got a new offensive coordinator. Alex Smith "turned the corner" when he got a new offensive coordinator. Tom Brady didn't start putting up big numbers until 2007, under the second season of new offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels, when he broke Manning's TD record. Speaking of which, Peyton Manning never threw less than 15 interceptions in his first 5 seasons. What happened in his fifth season - new OC, and 2 years later, after not cracking 30 TDs for 3 straight seasons, he set the all time single season TD record. Drew Brees never threw for more than 3500 yards in any of his first 4 seasons as a starter. He had a QB rating under 80 for two of those seasons. Then he winds up in New Orleans, a team that had 1 ten win season in the least 13 years before Brees. They finished 31st in PPG in 2005. In 2006, they finished 5th, with Drew Brees, a guy a lot of teams in the NFL didn't think was even healthy enough to play any more. Is it really so hard to see that a lot of great quarterbacks didn't become great until they had the right coaches around them?

[Bravens292]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1352159896' post='1211712']
I'll keep saying it, but Matt Ryan "turned the corner" when he got a new offensive coordinator. Alex Smith "turned the corner" when he got a new offensive coordinator. Tom Brady didn't start putting up big numbers until 2007, under the second season of new offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels, when he broke Manning's TD record. Speaking of which, Peyton Manning never threw less than 15 interceptions in his first 5 seasons. What happened in his fifth season - new OC, and 2 years later, after not cracking 30 TDs for 3 straight seasons, he set the all time single season TD record. Drew Brees never threw for more than 3500 yards in any of his first 4 seasons as a starter. He had a QB rating under 80 for two of those seasons. Then he winds up in New Orleans, a team that had 1 ten win season in the least 13 years before Brees. They finished 31st in PPG in 2005. In 2006, they finished 5th, with Drew Brees, a guy a lot of teams in the NFL didn't think was even healthy enough to play any more. Is it really so hard to see that a lot of great quarterbacks didn't become great until they had the right coaches around them?
[/quote]

hence why theres so much cam hate on these boards. a good offensive coordinator could make us lethal. with cam, we are ordinary and easy to defend.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Bravens292' timestamp='1352175923' post='1211882']
hence why theres so much cam hate on these boards. a good offensive coordinator could make us lethal. with cam, we are ordinary and easy to defend.
[/quote]

Yep. And my overall point to those out there (cough "Jamie Dukes" cough) who claim it's Joe and not Cam, there's too much evidence out there, both with Cam's past pupils and the examples of changes I pulled up, that says that scheme has more to do with inconsistency than personnel.

[Bravens292]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1352176429' post='1211890']
Yep. And my overall point to those out there (cough "Jamie Dukes" cough) who claim it's Joe and not Cam, there's too much evidence out there, both with Cam's past pupils and the examples of changes I pulled up, that says that scheme has more to do with inconsistency than personnel.
[/quote]

talking heads point to the players all the time and i don't understand it. they don't go beyond whats really going on. sometimes i wonder "do they really watch the games?" because i have yet to see anything from our offensive scheme look more than that of a middle school team. i am facepalming knowing its useless having a QB like joe when the offense around him is failing this bad even though its not the talent thats the problem. watching the saints game tonight has been a perfect example of scheme and they made the eagles look bad (well they are bad but still..)

[flynismo]

Ryan is much more consistent this season than Flacco, and thats the main difference.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1352186877' post='1211998']
Ryan is much more consistent this season than Flacco, and thats the main difference.
[/quote]and while it may have something to do with o cords if joe doesn't become more consistent over these last 8 games and playoffs he won't get a deal anywhere near what he would have imo

[H8R]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1352190225' post='1212003']
and while it may have something to do with o cords if joe doesn't become more consistent over these last 8 games and playoffs he won't get a deal anywhere near what he would have imo
[/quote]

I agree. and he shouldnt. Though, Flacco is similar to Eli, when hes good hes REALLY good and when hes bad... UGHHHHH... yea. hes BAD... Though, Eli had recievers actually CATCH the ball in playoff crunch time. : /

[The Raven]

[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1352216558' post='1212083']
I agree. and he shouldnt. Though, Flacco is similar to Eli, when hes good hes REALLY good and when hes bad... UGHHHHH... yea. hes BAD... Though, Eli had recievers actually CATCH the ball in playoff crunch time. : /
[/quote]

Perfect comparison.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1352216558' post='1212083']


I agree. and he shouldnt. Though, Flacco is similar to Eli, when hes good hes REALLY good and when hes bad... UGHHHHH... yea. hes BAD... Though, Eli had recievers actually CATCH the ball in playoff crunch time. : /
[/quote]he's a clone of Eli manning. Even his stats are very similar through 4 years.

One week he's the best quarterback in the league the next he's the worst.

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='Bravens292' timestamp='1352178553' post='1211961']
talking heads point to the players all the time and i don't understand it. they don't go beyond whats really going on. [b]sometimes i wonder "do they really watch the games?"[/b] because i have yet to see anything from our offensive scheme look more than that of a middle school team. i am facepalming knowing its useless having a QB like joe when the offense around him is failing this bad even though its not the talent thats the problem. watching the saints game tonight has been a perfect example of scheme and they made the eagles look bad (well they are bad but still..)
[/quote]

They probably watch clips and highlights then come up with the BS they will spew based on assumptions. I hate Dukes, Heath Evans and a lot of those idiots that can't see the realities.

[Finally]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1352176429' post='1211890']
Yep. And my overall point to those out there (cough "Jamie Dukes" cough) who claim it's Joe and not Cam, there's too much evidence out there, both with Cam's past pupils and the examples of changes I pulled up, that says that scheme has more to do with inconsistency than personnel.
[/quote]


To add to your point, Ryan really hasn't changed. Except for getting a little physically stronger the only other improvements are ones that you expect from a QB going into his 5th year. It was natural for him to get off to a hotter start and to play with more confidence. He is not more consistent as a player he just doesn't have a coordinator throwing away downs and wasting some significant talent so the offense and Ryan's number look more consistent. Mularkey drove our race car offense in the slow predictable lane. It is only because Ryan has been money on third downs and 4th quarter comebacks we have the records we have.

[PolishRifle]

The one thing Flacco has over Ryan is, that more often than none he found a way for us to win.

2nd vs Eagles: Throws a late TD, that would've won us the game.
3rd vs NE: Puts together last minute drive, that bring us in FG range.
5th vs KC: Runs for a crucial first down, that seals our victory over the Chiefs.
9th vs Browns: Connects with Q and basically gets the offense back into the game after 2 horrible quarters.

Yes, against the Texans we needed him to step up and he was a non-factor, but that 6-2 record is mostly his doing. I've seen Ryan do that once this season against the Panthers and to be perfectly honest, that looked more like ineptitude from the Carolina team than anything else to me.
Flacco has rarely been in the situation where he had to make "the play" to win the game for us in previous seasons. That was the defenses job and they were good at it, but in this season you have to admit he has talent for winning, even if most of these were ugly.

The problem here is, that there is still a HUGE difference between Joe on the road and at home and that he can't seem to convert that crucial 3rd down, which is a giant issue, that would need fixing ASAP.
Alot of this is playcalling though. For example I would like to see Joe take shots at the endzone much earlier, rather than bringing the team all the way up to it and just handing the ball over to Rice. It's really odd, that the Ravens consider the middle of the field the place to make big plays and not the 20 yards in front of it.

[CapoRocky]

I hope that Flacco gets a few more big games under his belt this year before the playoffs. Ryan has the prime targets but he is clearly a better QB at this point of the season.

[jimmypowder]

[quote name='CapoRocky' timestamp='1352236200' post='1212337']
I hope that Flacco gets a few more big games under his belt this year before the playoffs. Ryan has the prime targets but he is clearly a better QB at this point of the season.
[/quote]

Ryan has better receivers and tight end and more importantly a better oline and a better o coordinator.

I'm not making excuses for Flacco but this is my opinion.

The oline we have is just dysfunctional .Oher is a RT .Osemele is a Guard . We have noone to fill the Grubbs' spot
Yanda is having a substandard year and Birk is done. We arguably have one of the worst olines in the AFC.

[Finally]

[quote name='PolishRifle' timestamp='1352235897' post='1212333']
The one thing Flacco has over Ryan is, that more often than none he found a way for us to win.
[/quote]

Sorry, but no. Since 2008 no one has more 4th quarter comebacks than Ryan. He is nearly flawless in 2 minute drills. I am not sure why you guys keep throwing this idea around that Ryan is not clutch but it is false. That final drive in the Panthers game has not been done by another QB in 20 years. And yeah, he has weapons now but in his rookie season when it was just him and Roddy and Roddy was covered he orchestrated comebacks involving meh receivers too.

You guys should stick to bashing him for his lack of playoff success because other than just being human and having bad days occasionally there is not much else.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Finally' timestamp='1352241118' post='1212422']


Sorry, but no. Since 2008 no one has more 4th quarter comebacks than Ryan. He is nearly flawless in 2 minute drills. I am not sure why you guys keep throwing this idea around that Ryan is not clutch but it is false. That final drive in the Panthers game has not been done by another QB in 20 years. And yeah, he has weapons now but in his rookie season when it was just him and Roddy and Roddy was covered he orchestrated comebacks involving meh receivers too.

You guys should stick to bashing him for his lack of playoff success because other than just being human and having bad days occasionally there is not much else.
[/quote]a half decent safety and that bomb to white was an interception returned to inside your own 20 at least, it was an awful pass, and Naka mos judged the flight of the ball.

But carry on

[Finally]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1352242993' post='1212449']
a half decent safety and that bomb to white was an interception returned to inside your own 20 at least, it was an awful pass, and Naka mos judged the flight of the ball.

But carry on
[/quote]

You mean the pass that made sports science and has been added to the curriculum for young QBs to study? Oh, okay. Go ahead and knock the other 18 4th quarter comebacks too or how he is routinely among the best 3rd down and any distance QBs in the league. Maybe take away from him that when the game is on the line and there is a chance is when he plays his absolute best. That is not even close to clutch, right?

Ryan is not perfect. He has his flaws. For instance if a defense has a good bead on his snap count, Matty Ice sometimes turns into Matty Deer in the Headlights. He gets rattled and makes a lot of mistakes.

I am the last person to want to have this debate but I am tired of you guys taking pot shots at him that are completely false. He has been clutch as a Falcon and he was clutch at Boston College. It is what he does.

I want you guys to like Flacco better. It is as it should be. I don't need Ryan to be better or worse than Flacco because I am sold on him just being him. I am pretty sold on Flacco too. Ryan and Flacco have distinguished themselves far above any other QB drafted since. Freeman might be another but it is hard to say on that team. Newton is too immature. I haven't seen that much of Luck but he seems like a baller. RGIII is impressive but the concern would be that injuries might keep him from ever hitting his ceiling. I hope not. I like the kid. Those two will have the jury out for a couple of more years. No one gets crowned in their rookie or sophomore years.

I wish you guys had enough confidence in Flacco to stop this.

[berad]

Sports Science? PLEASE

Plaxico Burress was on sports science, he can apparently catch a ball 20 ft from his body but, instead, he's sitting on the couch. Those specials are so stupid.

Either way, Ryan and White made the play - they get credit for it.

[Bravens292]

they are both clutch. didn't we just watch joe have another game winning drive sunday? i hate this debate as much as everyone else but i'm 100% sold our problems are directly related to cams scheme and stats of brees and rivers under cam would back that up. i want to hold this debate off until cam leaves...if that will ever happen.

[Finally]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1352251630' post='1212538']
Sports Science? PLEASE

Plaxico Burress was on sports science, he can apparently catch a ball 20 ft from his body but, instead, he's sitting on the couch. Those specials are so stupid.

Either way, Ryan and White made the play - they get credit for it.
[/quote]

We can only hope that Ryan and Roddy do not shoot themselves and make a mockery of sports science too. PUH-leeze

Thanks for at least acknowledging they made a play though.

[berad]

[quote name='Finally' timestamp='1352257268' post='1212577']
We can only hope that Ryan and Roddy do not shoot themselves and make a mockery of sports science too. PUH-leeze

Thanks for at least acknowledging they made a play though.
[/quote]

The only Sports Science worth anything was Ray Lewis knocking down a door