At This Point In The Season, Has the Flacco/Ryan Debate Been Answered?

[Finally]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1351715699' post='1206785']
I'd like to point out that their first 3 years in the league were pretty similar, and Ryan's only really taken a leap forward this year, when he got a better OC. Alex Smith made a similar transformation when he got Jim Harbaugh, which proves that scheme and coaching has a lot more to do with a quarterback's success than people want to give it credit for.
[/quote]

In Ryan's case Mularkey was holding him back the last 2 years. Ryan is helping design plays this year. We have a real screen game for the first time too. Mularkey always said we didn't have the personnel to do screen plays. The only ones in his playbook were the ones that usually lost us yardage. On the sideline you can hear Ryan giving his players instructions for in-game adjustments now too. Mularkey helped bring Ryan along but the offense outgrew him and he was too stubborn to change. Also, you can't keep an obvious player-coach in a box.

I can see why someone who doesn't watch us might think the way you do but one situation doesn't prove the other.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Finally' timestamp='1351716950' post='1206809']


In Ryan's case Mularkey was holding him back the last 2 years. Ryan is helping design plays this year. We have a real screen game for the first time too. Mularkey always said we didn't have the personnel to do screen plays. The only ones in his playbook were the ones that usually lost us yardage. On the sideline you can hear Ryan giving his players instructions for in-game adjustments now too. Mularkey helped bring Ryan along but the offense outgrew him and he was too stubborn to change. Also, you can't keep an obvious player-coach in a box.

I can see why someone who doesn't watch us might think the way you do but one situation doesn't prove the other.
[/quote]sure he said the same thing as you. Your change in oc is helping Ryan reach his full potential and take that next step.

It's the biggest clearest sign to our front office we should move on with cam.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Finally' timestamp='1351716950' post='1206809']
In Ryan's case Mularkey was holding him back the last 2 years. Ryan is helping design plays this year. [b]We have a real screen game for the first time too. Mularkey always said we didn't have the personnel to do screen plays. The only ones in his playbook were the ones that usually lost us yardage. [/b]On the sideline you can hear Ryan giving his players instructions for in-game adjustments now too. Mularkey helped bring Ryan along but the offense outgrew him and he was too stubborn to change. Also, you can't keep an obvious player-coach in a box.

I can see why someone who doesn't watch us might think the way you do but one situation doesn't prove the other.
[/quote]

I feel like you just agreed with me and then said I missed the point. My point is simply that whatever Mularkey brought to the table, Koetter's system has taken Ryan's game to a whole new level. I believe that for our team, our offense has outgrown Cam Cameron's system, and we need someone in here to bring in a similar transformation to take Joe and this offense to their next level. As to the bolded point, we've heard Cam Cameron say the same thing here in Baltimore about several things. Thus, my point is that you can't say Flacco vs. Ryan has been answered, because while we've seen what Ryan can do when allowed to showcase his strengths, the offense Flacco runs is not tailored to his or any other quarterback's strengths, and only a change to a new offensive philosophy will really tell anyone if Flacco has what it takes to be an elite quarterback in this league.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1351711691' post='1206734']
Just like the Brady / Manning debate, just on a much lesser scale
(I'm with you funky, I think Manning wins that hands down)...
[/quote]
Well, it is really.
Flacco is more like a combo of the two, but still Ryan gets more recognition. Ryan=Brady, Tom was never a great QB, just a system QB with a damn good coach. BB made Brady, and Ryan is on a better team. Manning, is far and away, the best QB of the past decade..... but his teams were never all too talented. If Manning were on the Ravens his entire NFL career, screw Dynasty, we'd probably have three undefeated teams by now. You cant say that for Brady.
Joe has been clutch when it counts, Ryan often plays from behind. There is a difference.

[Finally]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1351722161' post='1206868']
I feel like you just agreed with me and then said I missed the point. My point is simply that whatever Mularkey brought to the table, Koetter's system has taken Ryan's game to a whole new level. I believe that for our team, our offense has outgrown Cam Cameron's system, and we need someone in here to bring in a similar transformation to take Joe and this offense to their next level. As to the bolded point, we've heard Cam Cameron say the same thing here in Baltimore about several things. Thus, my point is that you can't say Flacco vs. Ryan has been answered, because while we've seen what Ryan can do when allowed to showcase his strengths, the offense Flacco runs is not tailored to his or any other quarterback's strengths, and only a change to a new offensive philosophy will really tell anyone if Flacco has what it takes to be an elite quarterback in this league.
[/quote]

Sorry. I took your post to mean that Ryan needed coaching up when he really just needed to be let loose and I certainly do not think Alex Smith is in the same company as Ryan or Flacco. I don't think the Ryan vs Flacco question can be answered unless they swapped teams and there is no way we are letting Ryan out of Atlanta. That is not a dig on Flacco but TD/Smitty/Ryan have transformed our entire organization. We never had back to back winning seasons before them. Even though it hasn't translated yet we are at least getting to the playoffs most years. I think we might actually have enough defense to make our mark this year. It was like our entire organization rebooted in 2008 and we are not even close to the same team as we were before. Ryan has had more 4th quarter comebacks than anyone else in the league since he has been here. I would risk trying to duplicate his success with any other player.

I am proud of Joe getting further in the playoffs. Ryan takes the heat because he is the face of the franchise but there are a number of reasons why it hasn't happened yet.

[atljbo]

[quote][url="https://twitter.com/Ravens"][b]Baltimore Ravens[/b] ‏[s]@[/s][b]Ravens[/b] [/url]
[b]Joe Flacco[/b] said he would vote for Falcons QB [b]Matt Ryan[/b] for MVP as of right now. [url="https://twitter.com/Atlanta_Falcons"][s]@[/s][b]Atlanta_Falcons[/b][/url]
[/quote]

Props to Flacco for keeping it real... Its just most fans on both sides cant show the other guy props.

[atljbo]

[quote name='Finally' timestamp='1351723681' post='1206882']
Sorry. I took your post to mean that Ryan needed coaching up when he really just needed to be let loose and I certainly do not think Alex Smith is in the same company as Ryan or Flacco. I don't think the Ryan vs Flacco question can be answered unless they swapped teams and there is no way we are letting Ryan out of Atlanta. That is not a dig on Flacco but TD/Smitty/Ryan have transformed our entire organization. We never had back to back winning seasons before them. Even though it hasn't translated yet we are at least getting to the playoffs most years. I think we might actually have enough defense to make our mark this year. It was like our entire organization rebooted in 2008 and we are not even close to the same team as we were before. Ryan has had more 4th quarter comebacks than anyone else in the league since he has been here. I would risk trying to duplicate his success with any other player.

I am proud of Joe getting further in the playoffs. Ryan takes the heat because he is the face of the franchise but there are a number of reasons why it hasn't happened yet.
[/quote]

Thanks for being 100% unbias

The biggest difference this year is that Matt Ryan has been unleashed... Matt Ryan wasnt the sole reason we lost those playoff games but he will get the blame because he is the QB.....So i dont get why dude is balling but he is not getting that credit he should here.. Well Flacco gave it to him....Ryan is clearly not the same QB tho.

[Finally]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1351723154' post='1206877']

Well, it is really.
Flacco is more like a combo of the two, but still Ryan gets more recognition. Ryan=Brady, Tom was never a great QB, just a system QB with a damn good coach. BB made Brady, and Ryan is on a better team. Manning, is far and away, the best QB of the past decade..... but his teams were never all too talented. If Manning were on the Ravens his entire NFL career, screw Dynasty, we'd probably have three undefeated teams by now. You cant say that for Brady.
Joe has been clutch when it counts, Ryan often plays from behind. There is a difference.
[/quote]

Lol at Ryan being a system QB. You don't have to love him but that is just taking a shot in the dark.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1351729907' post='1206940']


Thanks for being 100% unbias

The biggest difference this year is that Matt Ryan has been unleashed... Matt Ryan wasnt the sole reason we lost those playoff games but he will get the blame because he is the QB.....So i dont get why dude is balling but he is not getting that credit he should here.. Well Flacco gave it to him....Ryan is clearly not the same QB tho.
[/quote]he's a falcons fan. That's not a ravens fan being unbiased

[Militant X 1]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1351729463' post='1206936']
[u][b]Props to Flacco for keeping it real[/b][/u]... Its just most fans on both sides cant show the other guy props.
[/quote]

at least someone is.

~Mili

[Tank 92]

White and Jones (+)

Cameron (-)

[Finally]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351757558' post='1207032']
he's a falcons fan. That's not a ravens fan being unbiased
[/quote]

lol. The bad thing is, I have the same username and profile pic on AFMB and over 10k posts there. It is probably because he spreads his time among so many other boards.

That was cool of Flacco to show support for his fellow 08 draft class member. One of our fans is so sure that a rivalry exists between them that he said this was an attempt fo distract Ryan and somehow one-up him. I am not even sure how that was supposed to work but I set him straight. We are much less fixated on this debate though. It still comes up from time to time when a fan gets jealous over someone complimenting Flacco but we can go months without the comparison being made.

[arnie_uk]

We only have about three or four that regularly bring up other quarterbacks into debates. There was a good thread not so long ago that atjbo and a couple of ravens fans totally ruined by bringing Ryan into. I'm sick of talking about him and others, I know a lot of other people are as well.

Vick is a popular one here as well.

[Finally]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351775954' post='1207076']
We only have about three or four that regularly bring up other quarterbacks into debates. There was a good thread not so long ago that atjbo and a couple of ravens fans totally ruined by bringing Ryan into. I'm sick of talking about him and others, I know a lot of other people are as well.

Vick is a popular one here as well.
[/quote]

I know how you feel. All fanbases have the same mixture of fans though. Some have really short memories and a player is only as good as his last performance regardless of how much other good he has done. Some have unrealistic expectations and expect every play/game to go perfectly otherwise it is time to rant. I see the problems in the Falcons and I don't mind discussing them objectively but that seldom happens because there is always someone who exaggerates them out of proportion.

Vick is close to killing the discussions about him.

Anyway, here is hoping that your next couple of games are so good that this thread gets buried.

[funky141]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1351711691' post='1206734']
Just like the Brady / Manning debate, just on a much lesser scale
(I'm with you funky, I think Manning wins that hands down)...
[/quote]

Cant' argue that!

[AsianRice]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351719673' post='1206844']
sure he said the same thing as you. Your change in oc is helping Ryan reach his full potential and take that next step.

[b]It's the biggest clearest sign to our front office we should move on with cam.[/b]
[/quote]
Dear Lord,

When can our FO awaken and move on from the past?

[MTRavensFan]

[quote name='Finally' timestamp='1351712696' post='1206744']

We are not rivals. I have no problem with be pleased at the Ravens and Flacco's success. The QBs we should be hating are Sanchez, Tebow, Vick, and Romo for stealing 90 percent of the media attention. Or maybe we should just hate the media for not properly covering our teams.

Ryan doesn't have to be better or worse for Flacco to be great. He can do that on his own.
[/quote]
Well said.
They only pay attention when they think we're gonna lose - I guess you can take the lack of attention given to Ryan as a major compliment. They only pay attention to Flacco when he says something they can spin totally out of context.

Gotta give props to Romo, though, for hanging in there in an untenable situation - line falling apart, receivers who don't know their routes and then drop perfect passes, etc. And then has the class to shoulder the responsibility without throwing blame around - he's not a whiner like Cutler or Baby Brady.

At this point in the season it's ridiculous to say that anything"s been put to rest.

[Finally]

[quote name='MTRavensFan' timestamp='1351782442' post='1207112']
Well said.
They only pay attention when they think we're gonna lose - I guess you can take the lack of attention given to Ryan as a major compliment. They only pay attention to Flacco when he says something they can spin totally out of context.
[/quote]

Just about every analyst had us losing last week. The only reason it was a lesser story was because of all the drama in Philly. One of them even admitted beforehand that if we won they would not celebrate our victory but rather discuss how the Eagle's lost. I guess at least they were honest about it.

I really hate what the media and a number of NFL fans do to Flacco. I said this on our board this week. If you lose it is his fault but if you win it is because of R.Rice or, up until recently, your defense. At the first of the year everyone was praising him for squashing all of that but a couple less stellar outings has brought it back again. We had the same issue. Our first 3 games were outstanding and our next 3 got gradually worse ending with the Raiders who we were supposed to crush but we squeaked by instead all of the premature MVP discussion dried up immediately.

Hopefully your Bye week gets you back on track and you crush the Browns this week and Flacco re-takes whatever respect the media grudgling affords one of the ignored teams.

[berad]

Answered:

[img]http://img.viame-cdn.com/photos/05240cd0-0689-0130-99ec-123139180156/r600x600.jpg[/img]

[url="http://via.me/-6jxxiao"]http://via.me/-6jxxiao[/url]

Once and for all

[ROH522155]

^^^ Swag!!

[allballs]

[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1351470354' post='1205195']
Until Mr. Ryan does something in the postseason, his pretty stats don't matter as much. Don't get me wrong, he's definitley played better than Joe so far this season, but there are alot of factors that go into it for me.

I'd still take Joe over him.
[/quote]

really, what has flacco done in the postseason? before you knee jerk, go back, do ya research....

[berad]

[quote name='allballs' timestamp='1351802713' post='1207311']
really, what has flacco done in the postseason? before you knee jerk, go back, do ya research....
[/quote]

He's had some good games, unlike Matt Ryan

[allballs]

[quote name='AsianRice' timestamp='1351781192' post='1207101']
Dear Lord,

When can our FO awaken and move on from the past?
[/quote]

the reason people stuck in the past, is because, thats how you are remembered in sports, it what you've done... and thats how players get paid, on what they've done, that is what birthed the term bust: a played payed a whole bunch of money on what he already did, then got paid and didnt do no more... jake delhomme, marian barber, ryan leaf, reggie bush, ray rice, gino torretta, all those QBs from florida , i mean, soon joe flacco will make that list...

[The Raven]

[quote name='allballs' timestamp='1351802713' post='1207311']
really, what has flacco done in the postseason? before you knee jerk, go back, do ya research....
[/quote]

Oh, not much. Just 4 playoff appearances, and 2 AFCCG appearances, one of which should have been a win. Do some research and you might know

[quote name='allballs' timestamp='1351802987' post='1207316']
the reason people stuck in the past, is because, thats how you are remembered in sports, it what you've done... and thats how players get paid, on what they've done, that is what birthed the term bust: a played payed a whole bunch of money on what he already did, then got paid and didnt do no more... jake delhomme, marian barber, ryan leaf, reggie bush, ray rice, gino torretta, all those QBs from florida , i mean, soon joe flacco will make that list...
[/quote]

So much wrong in this post! Players do not get paid for what they've done. That's an incorrect assumption. They get paid for what they are expected to do in the future with the past as a basis. I can't believe you put Rice in that post; that really shows how bright you are! I'm starting to think that you really are trolling the board.

[atljbo]

[quote name='Finally' timestamp='1351772598' post='1207056']
lol. The bad thing is, I have the same username and profile pic on AFMB and over 10k posts there. It is probably because he spreads his time among so many other boards.

That was cool of Flacco to show support for his fellow 08 draft class member. One of our fans is so sure that a rivalry exists between them that he said this was an attempt fo distract Ryan and somehow one-up him. I am not even sure how that was supposed to work but I set him straight. We are much less fixated on this debate though. It still comes up from time to time when a fan gets jealous over someone complimenting Flacco but we can go months without the comparison being made.
[/quote]

Calm down finally.. I dont be on alot of different boards and i know who u are so calm down..... Just saying ... It wasnt bias... You are saying what you think.. Not putting down Flacco to say what you feel about Matt Ryan (looking like a better player this year) ... Didnt say A RAVENS FAN being unbias... Some think our fans have fun just putting down Flacco to make Ryan look better..... Yea some fans do that but the majority of us .. Its not like that... The same on this board

[atljbo]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351775954' post='1207076']
We only have about three or four that regularly bring up other quarterbacks into debates. There was a good thread not so long ago that atjbo and a couple of ravens fans totally ruined by bringing Ryan into. I'm sick of talking about him and others, I know a lot of other people are as well.

Vick is a popular one here as well.
[/quote]
Timeout... I ruined the thread .... really.... I only say anything about Ryan when i see someone say something about Ryan... I started off in that thread giving my outside view of Flacco.... 90% of ppl gave me props on my assessment.... Like i said on that thread.. Im a falcon fan that like some ravens players so i dont know nearly as much about the ravens as the die hard ravens fan... So i gave my opinion...Someone else brought up Ryan...

Its all good...I try my best not to bring up Ryan unless its related or brought up.

[The Raven]

Can I say that the debate won't be answered until their careers are both over? Is that a reasonable response?

[berad]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1351806074' post='1207357']
Can I say that the debate won't be answered until their careers are both over? Is that a reasonable response?
[/quote]

Absolutely. And, even then, unless one is far and away better it may still go on

[atljbo]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1351806074' post='1207357']
Can I say that the debate won't be answered until their careers are both over? Is that a reasonable response?
[/quote]

100% agree... The only way i can see someone clearly looked at by all over the other is a big award or mainly a championship. But if the other win the award or championship a year later... Its back to the Manning vs Brady thing which is a win win for both teams

[Finally]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1351804838' post='1207347']
Calm down finally.. I dont be on alot of different boards and i know who u are so calm down..... Just saying ... It wasnt bias... You are saying what you think.. Not putting down Flacco to say what you feel about Matt Ryan (looking like a better player this year) ... Didnt say A RAVENS FAN being unbias... Some think our fans have fun just putting down Flacco to make Ryan look better..... Yea some fans do that but the majority of us .. Its not like that... The same on this board
[/quote]


Was there something in that post that made you think I was mad? I did include a "lol". I have seen you on a few other boards, I am on a few, no big deal.

It did sort of look like you might have thought I was a Ravens fan, an easy enough mistake to make. Message boards leave a lot to be desired as a good means of communication.